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Palm fires back at Apple, fixes Pre sync with iTunes - Page 4

post #121 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by minderbinder View Post

The issue isn't reverse engineering, it's that the Palm is impersonating an iPod, it is telling the computer and the user that it is an Apple product. And that probably is illegal, but more likely something like a trademark violation.

Trademark law doesn't have anything to do with iTunes code. Trademark law applies when companies do something that make consumers likely to confuse their product with another. Thus, tricking computers is not trademark violation, tricking people is. Telling people your product can sync with iTunes does not make a reasonable consumer think its an Apple product.

If having the Pre communicate with iTunes as if it was an iPod were illegal, many things, such as proxies, would also be illegal.
post #122 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by mavi View Post

Trademark law doesn't have anything to do with iTunes code. Trademark law applies when companies do something that make consumers likely to confuse their product with another. Thus, tricking computers is not trademark violation, tricking people is. Telling people your product can sync with iTunes does not make a reasonable consumer think its an Apple product.

If having the Pre communicate with iTunes as if it was an iPod were illegal, many things, such as proxies, would also be illegal.

The Pre presents itself in iTunes as an iPod, which is where I think they were going with that.
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post #123 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lisamacnewton View Post

Too all Pre users.....

You want to use Apple products? BUY AN iPHONE/iPod.

Otherwise stop whining......



I'm tired of people who whine "it's not fair we can't do this" attitude and then hack in. If you pay the premium, you GET THE PREMIUM. Simple as that. Stop being juvenile, Palm. I trashed my Treo years ago because it didn't keep up with the times (mostly software).

Agreed, if Palm wanted to achieve syncing with iTunes music & video they should have written their own app that reads the iTunes XML info & then lists up it's own version of your library to sync.

Palm is crazy to think they can fight a legal battle in their current weakened state. Only reason Apple hasn't nailed them to the wall yet is probably because it would make for bad PR.
post #124 of 167
I see no reason why Apple shouldn't allow Palm Pre owners to sync with iTunes. After all, anyone who is well versed in strategic decision making knows that while it is good to keep your friends close (in this case, Apple's own users), it is even better to keep your enemies closer (users of products made by Apple's rivals). In other words, it behooves Apple to allow users of rivals' products (e.g. Palm Pre owners) access to iTunes. By locking those users out, Apple may inadvertently force them to look elsewhere for their media library solutions; Apple may also force the competition (Palm) to look to Microsoft (etc) for syncing solutions, or Palm may choose to innovate and compete directly with iTunes itself, which may or may not be in Apple's best interest. To automatically assert that Apple should shut its rivals out of iTunes because it is Apple's software shows a lack of strategic foresight from Apple's perspective.
post #125 of 167
Except that iPods, not iTunes are what is more valuable to Apple. Keeping the system locked may threaten iTunes, but unlocking it would threaten iPods.
post #126 of 167
This is all getting silly and making both companies look bad. Palm looks bad for their devious ways to get itunes to sync, and apple looks bad by going out of their way to block it showing that they give a damn.

Apple should take the high road and say fuck it.
post #127 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by DJRumpy View Post

The Pre presents itself in iTunes as an iPod, which is where I think they were going with that.

And whatever my electronics tell each other has no bearing whatsoever on whether or not trademark law is violated. Its only if I reasonably might think they are something there not, such as if Palm marketed the Pre as the Apple Pre, that trademark law is implicated.
post #128 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by mesomorphicman View Post

If I was a Pre owner, I'd be disgruntled with Palm, thankfully I am a 3GS owner. Shouldn't Pre owners feel like they are getting substandard service and attention. Palm keeps marketing their "great" WebOS and how revolutionary it is and how it allows you to do soo many things, yet they tell users to piggyback on someone else's software and ingenuity to sync.

Well, if you're a Mac owner, you got used to substandard service and attention from Palm a long time ago, so if you're a Mac owner and a Pre owner, you probably don't really expect much in the way of support anyway. If you're a Wintel owner, you'll be used to it soon.

The whole Pre concept is based on Palm not investing any resources to support the device. Not only have they not created their own music sync solution, they haven't really created a sync solution for anything on the device: everything piggybacks on something else. Of course, they market this as "connecting you to the cloud," but the reality is that the whole device and how it works is a giant hack.

If it weren't for Palm's history of neglecting users, I'd just put this down to the fact that they are so cash-strapped they can barely get a new device out the door, but it may go deeper than that. Palm is not a company that anyone should ever depend on for anything that matters.
post #129 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by mavi View Post

No, the issue at the time was that it came with the computer and that the computers couldn't be sold with Netscape on it. The uninstallability of it was never an issue.

Better think again....

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post #130 of 167
What Palm has done is ensure every future iPod will have to authenticate to iTunes. For everyone who wondered WTF when they found out the new earbuds with volume/pause/skip controls have some sort of authentication chip, this is why.

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post #131 of 167
It would be a different situation if iTunes were meant to strictly support iPods and iPhones AND there were no iTunes music store OR if music purchased from the iTunes store was meant to be played only on iPods / iPhones.

Apple doesn't necessarily have the responsibility to fully support non-Apple devices but it shouldn't prevent syncing either.
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post #132 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by macxpress View Post

Better think again....

Microsoft formed restrictive licensing agreements with computer manufactuers to ensure that IE was the only browser featured.
post #133 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by John.B View Post

What Palm has done is ensure every future iPod will have to authenticate to iTunes. For everyone who wondered WTF when they found out the new earbuds with volume/pause/skip controls have some sort of authentication chip, this is why.

Last time I checked, you don't sync your iPod via the audio jack. Stop making silly claims. I agree the path Palm is taking is stupid but silly arguments don't help that overall Apple perspective either. Palm is exploiting a gap. You can bet if Apple closes that gap it will be seemless to the iPod user.
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post #134 of 167
With this type of behavior Palm goes very low, it's a shame for a company like that. Also, they only are looking to everybody as Apple "ass-smellers", and they are claiming that they are very behind Apple and innovation. In other words they are recognizing Apple as their Daddy. Stupid moves make product failures. Today they have buried their "iPhone Killer" forever.
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post #135 of 167
All you Pre owners - how does it feel to realize you basically own a fake iPod??
Your own phone says so...

post #136 of 167
Palm for a once proud organisation now stoops to parasitic behaviour. That should be the headline. How can they hold their heads up. In order for them to survive they have to leach off Apple!
post #137 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by lvidal View Post

With this type of behavior Palm goes very low, it's a shame for a company like that. Also, they only are looking to everybody as Apple "ass-smellers", and they are claiming that they are very behind Apple and innovation. In other words they are recognizing Apple as their Daddy. Stupid moves make product failures. Today they have buried their "iPhone Killer" forever.

This is not a stupid move for Palm, and emulating Apple is not a 'killer' for them; it is a non-issue. Consumers don't buy products, or not buy products, because they think 'Ah! This copies Apple! Yes!' or 'No! This copies Apple! Yuck!' They often buy emotionally and impulsively, based on their perceptions of the device. How could this move 'sink' their product?

ITunes compatibility is likely a plus for them, as long as they can maintain it.
post #138 of 167
None of this is a problem at all. Palm can use a third party software to use the iTunes library or actually do some work and create their own syncing software. Right now this is a clash of egos with Pre users as the loosers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by iReality85 View Post

I see no reason why Apple shouldn't allow Palm Pre owners to sync with iTunes. After all, anyone who is well versed in strategic decision making knows that while it is good to keep your friends close (in this case, Apple's own users), it is even better to keep your enemies closer (users of products made by Apple's rivals). In other words, it behooves Apple to allow users of rivals' products (e.g. Palm Pre owners) access to iTunes. By locking those users out, Apple may inadvertently force them to look elsewhere for their media library solutions; Apple may also force the competition (Palm) to look to Microsoft (etc) for syncing solutions, or Palm may choose to innovate and compete directly with iTunes itself, which may or may not be in Apple's best interest. To automatically assert that Apple should shut its rivals out of iTunes because it is Apple's software shows a lack of strategic foresight from Apple's perspective.
post #139 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by c4rlob View Post

All you Pre owners - how does it feel to realize you basically own a fake iPod??
Your own phone says so...

Why would you think they would even care as long as it works?
post #140 of 167
Palm would provide a better experience for it's users if they actually had some control over the PC syncing software. Software they don't control and can be broken with an update is not a good situation.


Quote:
Originally Posted by tt92618 View Post

This is not a stupid move for Palm, and emulating Apple is not a 'killer' for them; it is a non-issue. Consumers don't buy products, or not buy products, because they think 'Ah! This copies Apple! Yes!' or 'No! This copies Apple! Yuck!' They often buy emotionally and impulsively, based on their perceptions of the device. How could this move 'sink' their product?

ITunes compatibility is likely a plus for them, as long as they can maintain it.
post #141 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by NOFEER View Post

i'm sure apple has several pre phones to test and figure out how they hacked the itunes thing
why don't they just sue them, its invasion of intellectual property, sure looks like palm is spitting in apples face, seems personal. i can't wait for SJ to fire back, but it will be more than a simple itunes upgrade

I think Apple should grow up and allow an application provided with a computer purchase to sync with other people's hardware, not just Apple hardware.

They should do this by creating a standard sync protocol that lets the device provide an icon, name, and capabilities supported to iTunes, and then iTunes can send the data supported to the device. Apple can dictate the data transmission protocols and formats.

Let the devices stand on their own legs. The iPhone is superior, other devices are no threat - currently.
post #142 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by mavi View Post

There's not really any difference between what Microsoft was doing with IE with what Apple is doing with Itunes. Microsoft didn't force IE onto everyone who bought a computer, just people who bought computers running windows who knew what they were doing.

Yes they did. First of all, it automatically installed or came as the default browser. Then it couldn't be uninstalled. You could only get rid of the icon from the desktop. And lastly, Microsoft forced or tricked their developers to write using their own version of Java. Instead of Sun Java. Since Netscape was optimized for Sun Java, many websites written with MS Java wouldn't open properly in Netscape (if at all.). So the consumers was forced to use IE when visiting websites that were written using MS Java. Eventually, so many websites were written with MS Java that the consumers just kept IE as their default browser and never bother with Netscape. If MS had not forced or tricked their developers to use MS Java, Netscape may had had a chance. As it was the better browser at the time.
post #143 of 167
Good god- how many software updates for iTunes does this mean we will get this year?
I'd like to start a class action lawsuit for that inconvenience alone.
post #144 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by teckstud View Post

Why would you think they would even care as long as it works?

Yeah, I guess I wouldn't expect they care about finer details like that to begin with - after all they did by a Pre on a Sprint contract so they can't have too much of a standard for excellence. But it would definitely bug me - if the maker of the device I trust so much with my personal details couldn't even figure out (or care to figure out) how to change an icon.
post #145 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by timgriff84 View Post

Who suggested apple should spend money on making sure other products could sync. All Anyones said is apple should stop spending money on trying to stop other products from syncing.

I think this is a great response from palm. Apple users will eventually get pissed of if apple keeps releasing updates just to break the pre. And palm are just giving users what they want. Why would anyone want one program to sync with there iPod and another for there phone. If apple doesn't want to let others sync through iTunes then they shouldn't either and go back to using iSync, after all wasn't that the whole point of it.

Another thing if apple bring out a camera will that justify them in breaking photo sync in iphoto with everyone elses camera.

I agree. I don't understand why everyone is getting their collective panties in a bunch. It would be great if Apple exposed an API for iTunes synchronization. I think it would increase their dominance in online music sales. I think Apple is being short-sighted. They don't have to support anything that syncs to iTunes except their own product(s). The only thing they'd need to do is provide good documentation and a good forum for developers to report bugs... and I believe they already do that for their software offerings.

I think Apple users have for so long been the underdog that it effects judgement. I've never seen so many cases of extreme fanboy-ism. It's unnerving. But, I guess that's the world today - react before thinking.

Yes, I'm a Mac owner. I just bought my 4th Mac. I love the platform.
post #146 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by mavi View Post

No, the issue at the time was that it came with the computer and that the computers couldn't be sold with Netscape on it. The uninstallability of it was never an issue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by macxpress View Post

Better think again....

uninstallability - what a lovely word...
post #147 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by iPhone1982 View Post

That's not the point. Microsoft had to allow other Browsers on their Operating System. Apple has become Microsoft. Biil Gates Gives to Charity and Steve buys Livers.

Who's the evil one.

You need a better understanding of this dynamic. Micosoft was already a monopoly and chose to limit other browsers on their dominant Windows OS in favor of their own Internet Explorer. Apple tied the iPod and iTunes together as part of their well conceived strategy to become the market leader. And it's worked. This is how they've always done it. There's nothing new here. The Mac and Mac OS are closely tied. It's a closed system approach. Unlike Microsoft's open system approach. The EU recognizes this and has stated that Apple's iPod/iTunes closed system is not illegal. There's no evil on Apple's part, just good old fashioned competition. Palm uses a hack to trick iTunes into thinking it's an iPod. That's where the evil lies.

You're complaining about Apple being evil, yet you're willing to overlook the obvious evil in Palm's action. Just look at what Palm did! They HACKED the competitor's application to force it to work with their device and that's somehow okay with you? The simple solution is for Palm to build their own media software and music store for the Pre customer.
post #148 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by bsenka View Post

This would be the smarter way to go, but you know that Apple would just do a software update to the iPod/iPhone software that breaks their ability to see that hypothetical Palm app.

I think it's fair game for Palm to figure out a way to make their device work with the current standard software (iTunes), just as much as it's fair game for Apple to use their software to only promote their devices. They're both doing what you should expect that they'd do.

You just don't get it. THERE IS SOFTWARE that allows third-party MP3 players (including phones) to sync to iTunes - people have mentioned them several times. Apple has no problem with this. All Palm has to do is put this software on the Pre, or instruct users how to get it, or develop their own version, or buy out some developer.

What Palm is doing is hacking Apple software, to fool it into thinking the Pre is an actual iPod. This is, pure and simply, hacking. It's unethical, and probably illegal in some way. For Palm to rely on this method, instead of producing a simple software program, is ridiculous. Palm doesn't have to build an entire iTunes-like ecosystem - just an app that legitimately interacts with iTunes.
post #149 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by bsenka View Post

This would be the smarter way to go, but you know that Apple would just do a software update to the iPod/iPhone software that breaks their ability to see that hypothetical Palm app.

No, that would be a line that Apple has had opportunity to cross with other vendors and hasn't.
post #150 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by azcodemonkey View Post

It would be great if Apple exposed an API for iTunes synchronization.

That's the point: THEY DO! It's XML, the file system and USB. Blackberry does this right. Palm doesn't.
post #151 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by tt92618 View Post

This is not a stupid move for Palm, and emulating Apple is not a 'killer' for them; it is a non-issue. Consumers don't buy products, or not buy products, because they think 'Ah! This copies Apple! Yes!' or 'No! This copies Apple! Yuck!' They often buy emotionally and impulsively, based on their perceptions of the device. How could this move 'sink' their product?

ITunes compatibility is likely a plus for them, as long as they can maintain it.

Yes, man. More people than you think buy their products thinking 'this is original and this other is a copy', some prefer to pay less when a product is a copy just to have something similar, and others prefer to pay less because didn't have enough money to spend. But what its true is that they really want the original and when they can they buy it.

Now the iTunes syncing isn't something that Palm should sell as a 'feature' of its device because, as long as is convenient for users of the Pre, is something done in the wrong manner using others software without permission. If Apple has done something similar its wrong too, is thiefing anothers work. There's no way Palm are doing the right thing, and it's a bad, very bad publicity campaign when you talk shit about a competitor and then you use their tools for your rival product. Yes, is stupid.

How this move sinks the Pre? See: Now everybody's notion is that Palm is an imitator when they connect their Pres and iTunes recognizes as an iPod. At that very moment, subconciously you are acting in those users minds, and everytime they connect their Pres they always innevitably think about the iPhone and its cool features, and that what they have it's just a copy of that. It's a bad step. It is the same wrong direction every other makers are taking, trying to do the same things the iPhone do, you can't compete with Apple copying their stuff, you have to be original as they are. That's the reason why nobody will kill the iPhone in the next years. How many years? I don't know, but by now iPhone will be the king, like it or not, and the Pre is very far from that throne.
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post #152 of 167
There is a difference between not supporting the pre and actively breaking Pre's syncing capabilities. Despite the fact that it is pretty lame that Palm does not provide their users with their own syncing software, I feel this is a battle that Apple is going to lose. Palm may be childish here, Apple is too. Why doesn't Apple license out the sync module to Palm? After all, MS has done the same with their exchange protocols, and we are all very happy with that. And why should Apple take the risk that Palm does team up with other parties and does create a viable alternative for the itunes universe? Just let these guys hook up and be confident that ipod/iphone is still the best out there.
post #153 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by MsNly View Post

Apple should right some sort of virus thing that hits your Pre when you sync it like they wrote the iWork one =P

FAIL!
  • Apple did not "write" the "malware" which some people discovered when they installed an illegally shared copy of iWork09 downloaded through BitTorrent.
  • Your entire comment is so utterly asinine I wonder why you even bothered to post it.
post #154 of 167
If your printer or video card didnt come with drivers to work with the OS, do you blame the OS company instead of the manufacturer? Palm HAS TO take responsibility to write driver/sync software for its own device just like every manufacturer.

Apple doesn't owe its competitors anything. It has nothing to do with anti-trust, etc.
post #155 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by OskiO View Post

Someone gave my wife a Zen Stone for running last year. It is great and just what she needed but I can't us it with iTunes so I'm left with hacking the music in or shelling out more money for a Shuffle. That is BS. I mean I love Apple products, own quite a few, iPhone(2), Touch, Nano, Mac Minis, MacBook but it pisses me off when another company has a great product and it won't work with an Apple product because of Apple. You suck Apple when it comes to playing fair.

I gave that ugly Zen to your hot lusty wife. I cant believe she likes it. Dont blame Apple because Zen manufacturer was too lazy to write SW for it. Stop trolling.
post #156 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by Halvri View Post

You have to understand, there are only two kinds of Pre owners: 1) ones like me that bought it because we liked Sprint's plans and it was a decent phone and 2) people who wanted an iPhone that was made by anyone but Apple.

The first crowd sees all of this for what it is, the second crowd just wants another chance to tell Apple to go xxxk itself.

really ?? The pre is a piece of shit phone with broken cracked bubbled screens that can't even play music . The Iphone 3g kills the pre.

YOU are too dull to know this but each time msft makes a change to its OS
apple has to update /patch its itunes.
since 85 percent of all itunes is installed on a windows machine then how can you blame apple ???

And msft can reall;y screw pre by waiting for magic mass sign PRE up moment amd make a major change to vista .

Why you hate apple is beyond me, apple is just the best device maker ever. No other company cares as much for its clients like apple /
NO OTHER COMPANY COMES CLOSE DUDE .

so go love sprint and pre and leave apples to apples

NO IPHONE FOR YOU
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post #157 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by jregooden View Post

You need a better understanding of this dynamic. Micosoft was already a monopoly and chose to limit other browsers on their dominant Windows OS in favor of their own Internet Explorer. Apple tied the iPod and iTunes together as part of their well conceived strategy to become the market leader. And it's worked. This is how they've always done it. There's nothing new here. The Mac and Mac OS are closely tied. It's a closed system approach. Unlike Microsoft's open system approach. The EU recognizes this and has stated that Apple's iPod/iTunes closed system is not illegal. There's no evil on Apple's part, just good old fashioned competition. Palm uses a hack to trick iTunes into thinking it's an iPod. That's where the evil lies.

You're complaining about Apple being evil, yet you're willing to overlook the obvious evil in Palm's action. Just look at what Palm did! They HACKED the competitor's application to force it to work with their device and that's somehow okay with you? The simple solution is for Palm to build their own media software and music store for the Pre customer.


HA HA this guy missed the fact that itunes is a windows mostly software
85 to 14
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post #158 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by brucep View Post

HA HA this guy missed the fact that itunes is a windows mostly software
85 to 14

And that makes a difference because?
post #159 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by amerist View Post

FAIL!
  • Apple did not "write" the "malware" which some people discovered when they installed an illegally shared copy of iWork09 downloaded through BitTorrent.
  • Your entire comment is so utterly asinine I wonder why you even bothered to post it.

No, you my friend are "FAIL" because you can't detect sarcasm or read, I posted a similar response to this later in the thread.
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post #160 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by OriginalMacRat View Post

Apple made iTunes for iPod sales.

Apple doesn't make money from the Palm Pre.

Yeah, but if Apple licensed access to iTunes, they WOULD make money. Just figure out an algorithm that offsets iPod losses with Pre license fees. You could even make it big, like $100 per Pre or so. Apple makes money off the few people that buy a Pre. The Pre doesn't really compete with the iPhone/iPod anyway - esp. re apps, so why not?!?!?!

Again this is just about figuring out the right price. Then the Pre becomes the iPhone's red haired cousin and actually begins to depend upon Apple. I think they could have done this with Scandisk and others, just make it expensive enough that you make money off of the people that weren't going to buy an Apple product anyway.

PLUS if they bought all their music on iTunes, even iTunes +, they are more likely to upgrade to the next revolutionary, cool Apple thing than they are to the incrementally better Palm device.

If its just about money, just set a price.
If its just about market share, just keep the innovative lead and people's mindshare on iTunes.
If its about ego and not partnering with Palm, just get over it. They are no threat.
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