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Palm fires back at Apple, fixes Pre sync with iTunes - Page 3

post #81 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sevenfeet View Post

All of you that think that Palm has every right to worm it's way into syncing with iTunes never went to business school or law school. iTunes is not an operating system. Mac OS X and Windows are designed with APIs so that developers will do as much as possible with it so people will go out and buy Macs or Windows machines respectively. This is how their business models for these products works.

iTunes is an individual program running on Mac OS X or Windows. Because of that, it's not designed by Apple to promote selling Macs. It's designed to promote that other profitable Apple venture, iPods and iPhones. Yes, iTunes used to support third party MP3 players in the early days but those days ended after iTunes came to Windows. Since iTunes business model is iPod/iPhone profit margins, Apple has zero interest in having any other company's device talk to it.

And iTunes is not just a program with a few dozen developers supporting the product on Mac and Windows. iTunes has hundreds of programmers supporting one of the most complex infrastructures in modern computing. The iTunes store is a huge technology operation covering millions of SKUs (songs, music videos, movies, TV shows...all with contracts that have to be honored), dozens of countries of operation, an iPhone app store with 60,000+ apps in it (with their own pricing policies) and a security model that keeps your credit card information safe. And they spend lots of money promoting it and marketing it. The technical operation is reportedly the largest single instance of SAP ERP software on the planet. The Oracle database is also likely to be enormous and complex. And all of it has to run on thousands of servers in several parts of the world just to keep up with the load. You think Apple is building that data center in North Carolina at the tune of 1 billion dollars because it feels like it?

Apple has spent hundreds of millions of dollars over several years making sure this operation works every time a user accesses it. And sometimes its been stretched to the breaking point (remember when iPhones first had problems in activation? They have spent countless hours in design, architecture, programming, regression testing (involving every iPod & iPhone ever made) and go-live projects...all of which you never see.

So now Palm wants to piggyback on those efforts just to sell a few Pres and avoid having to invest in the man-hours and infrastructure Apple has done. Are you kidding me? At best, its intellectually lazy. At worst, it' probably illegal due to the DMCA, or violation of the EULA. Now, I have no doubt that Palm will make its own music program eventually. They are exposed to too much risk with the current hack. Palm doesn't have the resources to build its own music/video store so I would think they would partner with someone like Amazon. But that will cost money too. Every wonder why Apple says that the iTunes store isn't that profitable? Read my piece about the infrastructure costs again.

Palm needs to stop iTunes integration before Apple decides to make an example of them.

You have to understand, there are only two kinds of Pre owners: 1) ones like me that bought it because we liked Sprint's plans and it was a decent phone and 2) people who wanted an iPhone that was made by anyone but Apple.

The first crowd sees all of this for what it is, the second crowd just wants another chance to tell Apple to go fuck itself.
post #82 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by yuusharo View Post

And to those who notice their 70%+ marketshare of MP3 devices .

Apple can have 90% of the MP3 player market and iTunes would not be perceived as "monopolistic" in the eyes of the courts. That's because there are many other apps that can be used to get music into an iPod. The iPod, like nearly all MP3 players, are seen as just an external HD. You can just drag the songs you want into it. There is no need for iTunes, except for firmware updates. Thus an iPod owner is not "tied" to iTunes. And Apple has always allowed third party apps to put music into an iPod.

iTunes is the most popular music jukebox/organizer. But by no means the only one. Nor does it have a "monopolistic" marketshare. The iPod may have 70% of the MP3 marketshare. But by no means does that mean that iTunes is on 70% of the computers. Over 40% of the computers are business computers and I bet most of them don't have iTunes on them. If any music jukebox/organizer stand a chance of being considered holding a "monopolistic" market share, it would be Windows Media Player. As it is installed on nearly every PC with Windows. Including business computers.

iTunes will work on a PC or Mac. And you do not need an iPod to use it. You can still use it to organize your music, play your music on the computer, drag songs out of it to any MP3 player (that plays the file format and is seen as an HD. Even a thumb drive or cell phone.), burn disc (music, MP3 and data), convert files and access the iTunes Store with it. About the only thing you can't do is to easily transfer your music (and playlist) to any other portable MP3 player, except an iPod/iPhone.

So you do not need iTunes to use an iPod. And you do not need an iPod to use iTunes. There is no lock in or "tied".

The EU was looking into the "tied" bewteen the songs purchased from the iTunes Store and the iPod. But this was because of the DRM the labels required Apple to have in place. The EU have never looked into iTunes software being "tied" to the iPod or vice versa.
post #83 of 167
Apple has legal and binding contracts with the Producers of the music to be the Store for their catalog.

Palm can work out those agreements on their own.
post #84 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by wobegon View Post

It's almost as though they're asking for a (legal) fight.

Regardless, the ball's in Apple's proverbial court.

Get ready for iTunes 8.2.2

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post #85 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by iPhone1982 View Post

I would think that since Apple allows RIM to sync the Blackberry and isn't allowing PALM to sync the PRE it's more a case of very bad for Apple's Image along with slave labor they use to manufacture the phone.

Allow Blackberry
Don't Allow Palm Pre

Can anyone say EU anti Trust?

Have you perhaps considered that RIM has licenced this technology from Apple while Palm is stealing it?
post #86 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by OriginalMacRat View Post

Apple made iTunes for iPod sales.

Apple doesn't make money from the Palm Pre.

True, but I used to use iTunes and its store, and I easily bought far more than $250 (the price of my iPod) in music from iTunes. Therefore they would make money from the Palm Pre. Since then, I left iTunes and switched to Amazon MP3, certain questionable sources, and foobar2000 and I am much more pleased with the service I am receiving and I would never go back to iTunes.
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post #87 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by OskiO View Post

Apple is being an A$$! They are worse than Microsoft. They should just tell Palm users "Welcome to the best software for your Pre" and leave it at that. They could even toss up little iPhone ads on the sync screen when you connect a Pre....I would be cool with that. I can't believe the EU is going after MS over IE integration and nobody blinks when Apple won't even let other devices connect to iTunes.

Someone gave my wife a Zen Stone for running last year. It is great and just what she needed but I can't us it with iTunes so I'm left with hacking the music in or shelling out more money for a Shuffle. That is BS. I mean I love Apple products, own quite a few, iPhone(2), Touch, Nano, Mac Minis, MacBook but it pisses me off when another company has a great product and it won't work with an Apple product because of Apple. You suck Apple when it comes to playing fair.

Apple has a history of being on the short end of "fair"... The graphical user interface of Windows 3.1 was a complete rip off of Apple.
Now Apple is protective and maintains their moat carefully. Good business sense.

All the more important in an era when every other month some dumb a$$ holding company sues for patent infringement of one of the 100 zillion patents they have accumulated in hope of suing a cash rich company and making big bucks.

Power to Apple for protecting their greatness.
post #88 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by MsNly View Post

Why should Apple spend THEIR money on making sure 3rd party products work with THEIR products while SOMEONE ELSE makes the money that would be paying for that checking?

Who suggested apple should spend money on making sure other products could sync. All Anyones said is apple should stop spending money on trying to stop other products from syncing.

I think this is a great response from palm. Apple users will eventually get pissed of if apple keeps releasing updates just to break the pre. And palm are just giving users what they want. Why would anyone want one program to sync with there iPod and another for there phone. If apple doesn't want to let others sync through iTunes then they shouldn't either and go back to using iSync, after all wasn't that the whole point of it.

Another thing if apple bring out a camera will that justify them in breaking photo sync in iphoto with everyone elses camera.
post #89 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidW View Post

Apple can have 90% of the MP3 player market and iTunes would not be perceived as "monopolistic" in the eyes of the courts. That's because there are many other apps that can be used to get music into an iPod. The iPod, like nearly all MP3 players, are seen as just an external HD. You can just drag the songs you want into it. There is no need for iTunes, except for firmware updates. Thus an iPod owner is not "tied" to iTunes. And Apple has always allowed third party apps to put music into an iPod.

Sure, you can drag the files onto the iPod but good luck trying to play them through the iPod's user interface. iTunes and iPods/iPhone are meant to be inextricably tied to each other.
If you could point out to me a sanctioned piece of software from Apple which allows me to sync my iPod and iPhone other than iTunes, I will try and use it
Quote:
So you do not need iTunes to use an iPod. And you do not need an iPod to use iTunes. There is no lock in or "tied".

I think you're incorrect.
post #90 of 167
What did I say? Interesting story - Interesting comments. I love this ^_^

I got a lot of heat last time for saying this last time, but I'll say it again -- if Microsoft acted the way Apple did by breaking the Pre's ability to sync with, let's say, the Zune software, the outrage would fall almost entirely on Microsoft, not Palm. By this, I mean that Apple usually gets a pass on these types of issues.

Its not an anti-trust issue, but it is anti-competitive behavior. Not that Apple doesn't have any right to, I'm just saying they're usually more forgivable than the other players for some odd reason.
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post #91 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by OriginalMacRat View Post

Apple made iTunes for iPod sales.

Apple doesn't make money from the Palm Pre.

Apple does make money from the Pre in the form of song bought from iTunes. Now if people are just using it as a way play their music from that they bootleg then it would not benefit Apple at all. I also never buy music from Apple, so the only money they got off me was my purchase of all three different iPhone models. On a side note Blackberries can sync with iTunes, so your playlist move over. I would also say if the iPhone didn't exist today so many people on here would not be so hostile to the Pre or any other phone for that matter.
post #92 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobertoq View Post

True, but I used to use iTunes and its store, and I easily bought far more than $250 (the price of my iPod) in music from iTunes. Therefore they would make money from the Palm Pre. Since then, I left iTunes and switched to Amazon MP3, certain questionable sources, and foobar2000 and I am much more pleased with the service I am receiving and I would never go back to iTunes.

I have also found that Amazon offers a wider range of music as well
post #93 of 167
virus on Pre, ads in Pre iTunes, etc... People really cannot read anymore?

it syncs because itunes think it's an iPod. itunes cannot differentiate, so it cannot display ads or whatever; if it would, there would be on your iPod as well.
post #94 of 167
Apple could block the Pre once and for all if they used an encrypted connection between the iPod and iTunes. That way if Palm hacked an iPod firmware and took out the private key Apple could sue them under the DMCA. It wouldn't even have to be the whole connection, just the handshake phase.

But this would require issuing a crypto supporting firmware update to all existing iPods, and if a unit is plugged in with an older firmware, iTunes refuse to do anything with it except upgrade it's firmware. That would be a very harsh customer experience.
post #95 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by iPhone1982 View Post

That's not the point. Microsoft had to allow other Browsers on their Operating System. Apple has become Microsoft. Biil Gates Gives to Charity and Steve buys Livers.

Who's the evil one.


I agree. I used to hate Microsoft with a passion because their software was crappy but more importantly because they bullied people into doing things. I used to like Apple; but now the tables are turning. Apple is becoming a pretty nasty bully and they seem to have that mentality that they can get away with anything (I know having worked there). Bully the carriers; bully the competition; bully the music industry. At the end of the day; no-one likes a bully (except obviously the fan-boys).

Sooner or later; this will catch up to them. Look at what's happening to Microsoft. The other reality is that the end users ultimately end up paying for this. Yes that means all you crazy Apple fan-boys. I know you love to dish lots of money at Apple; but in a world dominated by Apple in a similar way that Microsoft dominates the desktop; you WILL be paying a whole lot more dough for the same product you have today.

I'd rather see 2-3 companies do good; than one dominant one. Although clearly Rim still shows Apple how to make a big profit on a phone; I'd still like to see 1-2 more options there so a duopoly doesn't get created in the US (cause all US companies are pennies in the international market).
post #96 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rot'nApple View Post

Get ready for iTunes 8.2.2


Haha; possibly. But at the end of the day; if Apple keeps updating iTunes everytime it finds a new way to break the pre; they too will give their users a poor experience.

ie: Do you really get a good thing out of the Microsoft genuine advantage? NO! Same deal here. If the updates are merely to break devices; then they'll piss me off.
post #97 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by OskiO View Post

Apple is being an A$$! They are worse than Microsoft. They should just tell Palm users "Welcome to the best software for your Pre" and leave it at that. They could even toss up little iPhone ads on the sync screen when you connect a Pre....I would be cool with that. I can't believe the EU is going after MS over IE integration and nobody blinks when Apple won't even let other devices connect to iTunes.

Someone gave my wife a Zen Stone for running last year. It is great and just what she needed but I can't us it with iTunes so I'm left with hacking the music in or shelling out more money for a Shuffle. That is BS. I mean I love Apple products, own quite a few, iPhone(2), Touch, Nano, Mac Minis, MacBook but it pisses me off when another company has a great product and it won't work with an Apple product because of Apple. You suck Apple when it comes to playing fair.

IE was forced upon us with the purchase of every single computer, that's why the EU went after MS. iTunes is included with every Mac OS X product which is fine because it is a "closed environment", i.e. every buyer knows what they get when buying a Mac, including iTunes. On the other hand, Apple does not force iTunes onto MS users - they are free to download it and certainly will once they buy an iPhone/iPod because these devices are meant to work with iTunes. Apple has built iTunes to enhance the user experience of iPhone/iPod users and as such, iTunes is an extension of these products. Should people use iTunes without an Apple device, they obviously can do so but once they do, they should not complain if they could not sync their non-Apple devices.
post #98 of 167
Why should Apple be forced to make iTunes compatible with any non-Apple device? Why are people complaining that Apple broke the Pre syncing with iTunes when there is no way to sync the Pre with Zune? Why is no one complaining that there is no Zune software for the Mac? Why is no one complaining that the iPhone/iPod cannot sync with the Zune software? Simple: iTunes and Zune software were created as companion products to a company's specific hardware. They may open the software to other devices but certainly have no legal obligation to do so. iTunes is so popular today because of the sheer number of iPhones and iPods in use. Zune software is not nearly as popular because there not nearly as many Zunes in use.
post #99 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by awmawm View Post

IE was forced upon us with the purchase of every single computer, that's why the EU went after MS. iTunes is included with every Mac OS X product which is fine because it is a "closed environment", i.e. every buyer knows what they get when buying a Mac, including iTunes. On the other hand, Apple does not force iTunes onto MS users - they are free to download it and certainly will once they buy an iPhone/iPod because these devices are meant to work with iTunes. Apple has built iTunes to enhance the user experience of iPhone/iPod users and as such, iTunes is an extension of these products. Should people use iTunes without an Apple device, they obviously can do so but once they do, they should not complain if they could not sync their non-Apple devices.

There's not really any difference between what Microsoft was doing with IE with what Apple is doing with Itunes. Microsoft didn't force IE onto everyone who bought a computer, just people who bought computers running windows who knew what they were doing.

What was and is different is the market share, not the openness or closedness of the platforms. Apple doesn't have a monopolistic marketshare in OS, so they can pretty much do whatever they want.

In online music, that's a different issue. The key issue in antitrust is how you define a market. If you define the dominance of itunes relative to all installed music software, it is obviously not a monopoly. But, if, as some have said, Apple does have a 70% share of the digital music player market, then the fact that all of those devices are forced to use itunes is using monopoly power.

Monopoly, by itself, is not an antitrust violation, since there are certain benefits that arise, if it is true that Apple barely makes money off of itunes. No ipod, no itunes. Moreover, that is probably not a proper market definition (though it would be the one I would argue for if I were Palm). But the fact that vista owners don't have a computer that came with itunes says nothing as to whether or not Apple is being a monopoly.
post #100 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by awmawm View Post

Why should Apple be forced to make iTunes compatible with any non-Apple device? Why are people complaining that Apple broke the Pre syncing with iTunes when there is no way to sync the Pre with Zune? Why is no one complaining that there is no Zune software for the Mac? Why is no one complaining that the iPhone/iPod cannot sync with the Zune software? Simple: iTunes and Zune software were created as companion products to a company's specific hardware. They may open the software to other devices but certainly have no legal obligation to do so. iTunes is so popular today because of the sheer number of iPhones and iPods in use. Zune software is not nearly as popular because there not nearly as many Zunes in use.

Apple shouldn't be forced to make their software compatible, but breaking Palm's emulation is playing right into Palm's hands.

The Palm Pre's a good phone (I own one), the OS is great, and the hardware is on par with the 3G, but definitely inferior to the 3GS. Top it off with the fact that its on Sprint who may have a better network than ATT, but Sprint is much much smaller. Pre's whole selling point is that its an "iphone killer". Every time the words iphone and pre are mentioned in the same sentence, Palm does a little dance. Apple and Palm's battle over itunes gives legitimacy to the claim they are the iphone rival, and not blackberry or google. In about 6 months the Pre will be available on Verizon, and if it still has all the hype it does now, it may indeed become the chief iphone rival.

Apple should have waited an update or two before breaking it, so that it didn't seem like they created an update just to break Palm.

Also, I love all the people saying Apple should sue Palm. Palm has not done anything illegal. All they've done is changed the inputs into the itunes system. If that is illegal, that would be like a car company claiming that it was illegal to make mods for their car. The car company is free to change the car around so that the parts don't fit, but all the pre is doing right now is telling itunes it fits in the ipod socket. If Apple sues Palm over that, Palm won't even have to pay legal fees; the EFF will defend them for free.
post #101 of 167
Quote:
The funny thing is that theyll manage to get a lot of people loudly angry at Apple. Hardly any of their users will actually blame Palm for the inconvenience.

And that's a very good thing in my opinion. Much like Apple blasts Microsoft for a lot of things that are actually the fault of 3rd party companies, it would be very nice to see Apple get a taste of their own medicine over iTunes and the Pre. Apple will increasingly be in danger of facing anti-competition sanctions as the iTunes base becomes more and more dominant and they continue to lock out devices that aren't their own. When you dominate an area of the market, you have to be VERY careful where you tread.
post #102 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by djsherly View Post

Sure, you can drag the files onto the iPod but good luck trying to play them through the iPod's user interface. iTunes and iPods/iPhone are meant to be inextricably tied to each other.
If you could point out to me a sanctioned piece of software from Apple which allows me to sync my iPod and iPhone other than iTunes, I will try and use it

I think you're incorrect.

http://www.copytrans.net/copytransmanager.php

http://freewareapp.com/wmpod_download

http://www.mgtek.com/dopisp/

http://www.yamipod.com/main/modules/home/

Not sure what you mean by "sanctioned". But some of these been around since first generation Nano and Apple has not done anything to stop it. Most are for Windows. Some users claim that some of these are better than iTunes. Never used them myself but I know some people with Windows that don't use iTunes. They use some plug in for Windows Media Player or WinAmp that allows it to fully sync with an iPod. It's more convenient to manage your music if you have more than one MP3 player (or cell phone) and one of then is not an iPod/iPhone. Can't really say first hand if any of these are better than iTunes.
post #103 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidW View Post

http://www.copytrans.net/copytransmanager.php

http://freewareapp.com/wmpod_download

http://www.mgtek.com/dopisp/

http://www.yamipod.com/main/modules/home/

Not sure what you mean by "sanctioned". But some of these been around since first generation Nano and Apple has not done anything to stop it. Most are for Windows. Some users claim that some of these are better than iTunes. Never used them myself but I know some people with Windows that don't use iTunes. They use some plug in for Windows Media Player or WinAmp that allows it to fully sync with an iPod. It's more convenient to manage your music if you have more than one MP3 player (or cell phone) and one of then is not an iPod/iPhone. Can't really say first hand if any of these are better than iTunes.

I hate to pick nits, but you asserted that the iPod is seen is an external drive and it was simply a matter of dragging and dropping. Thanks for the links (I knew about yamipod, for instance - which doesn't work with touchscreen ipods) but I don't think they really address your assertion, or at least, how it reads.

Sure, you can drop mp3 on your ipod all day, but all it's going to do is allow you to carry them around. You won't be listening to them using the device
post #104 of 167
Option 1: Release another update to itunes. Stops further circumvention but allows the continuation of a cat and mouse game with Palm and potentially looks a bit like Goliath.

Option 2: Sell a vendor licence to all hardware vendors allowing 3rd party device support under itunes. They could price this extremely high, making it so the likes of Palm would struggle to afford it but say Microsoft could. The benefit of this is that with at least one official licensee, Apple have got good ground to then sue should Palm be trying to avoid paying their dues...

Option 3: Do nothing, accept that Palm Pre users are using itunes and be happy with it.

Option 4: Sue Palm based on EULA abuse etc...which is flakey

Option 5: Sue Palm based on intellectual/patent property abuse. Here is where i think Apple could seriously inflict damage on Palm. They could bring about a dispute based against the original Palm OS. It's well known that Palm robbed alot of their IP from the Newton. By backdating the dispute against Palm's original OS, Apple could reap serious money in terms of per unit royalties which in term could stake a claim on the underlying technologies used in the Pre Web OS.

The only certainty here is that we've not heard the end of this....

To quote the Oxford dictionary..."Palm off something, also Palm something off"

to trick or persuade someone to take something They palmed off cheap wine at high prices by putting it in fancy bottles. She produced fake stamps and palmed them off as genuine.

In related news Palm has started selling their own brand of Coke and Southern Fried chicken having been able to crack other well known secret recipes.
post #105 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by legend79 View Post

I agree. I used to hate Microsoft with a passion because their software was crappy but more importantly because they bullied people into doing things. I used to like Apple; but now the tables are turning. Apple is becoming a pretty nasty bully and they seem to have that mentality that they can get away with anything (I know having worked there). Bully the carriers; bully the competition; bully the music industry. At the end of the day; no-one likes a bully (except obviously the fan-boys).

Sooner or later; this will catch up to them. Look at what's happening to Microsoft. The other reality is that the end users ultimately end up paying for this. Yes that means all you crazy Apple fan-boys. I know you love to dish lots of money at Apple; but in a world dominated by Apple in a similar way that Microsoft dominates the desktop; you WILL be paying a whole lot more dough for the same product you have today.

I'd rather see 2-3 companies do good; than one dominant one. Although clearly Rim still shows Apple how to make a big profit on a phone; I'd still like to see 1-2 more options there so a duopoly doesn't get created in the US (cause all US companies are pennies in the international market).

Then what are you complaining about. By Apple not letting Palm (or any one else) ride on their coat tail forces them to write their own software. This creates more choices for the consumers. And ultimately some one (maybe Palm ) will come up with something better than iTunes. Which forces Apple to make iTunes better than it is today. What's wrong with forcing Palm (and others) to compete. So long as the playing field remains level for everyone. Consumers win.

If Apple allow every Tom, Dick and Harry to use their software, where's the incentive for other companies to come up with something better? Just think about it. If enough MP3 players (and cell phones) makers were to used iTunes to sync their music, because it's the easy way, then Apple can potentially have access to every MP3 player out there. (Except the Zune. But there's not enough of those to matter. ) Which will make Apple iTunes Store even more dominant. Then you'll be back here complaining about how Apple illegally bully their way into taking over the online music and video market by allowing easy access to iTunes.

Remember, that's how Microsoft ended up dominating the Office Suite market using Windows. In the beginning MS literally gave away their OS licenses to computer makers. This flooded the computer market with "PC's". Only a handful attempted to write their own OS for their hardware. And once Windows was being use by nearly all computers, MS had no problem wiping out Lotus and WordPerfect with MS Office. And at the time, there was nothing innovative about MS Office. (Except for maybe Excel on a Mac).
post #106 of 167
If your business model includes constantly having to hack your product so it works on the back of your main competitors platform... you've already failed!

Palm Pre will all but be extinct within 1 year.
post #107 of 167
So has anyone figured out how they're doing it in the new version?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cory Bauer View Post

They used to let 3rd party MP3 players sync with iTunes; now that there aren't any 3rd party MP3 players left on the market, what's the harm in letting the Palm Pre sync with iTunes?

No, they used to do it before the iPod existed.
post #108 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by OskiO View Post

Apple is being an A$$! They are worse than Microsoft. They should just tell Palm users "Welcome to the best software for your Pre" and leave it at that. They could even toss up little iPhone ads on the sync screen when you connect a Pre....I would be cool with that. I can't believe the EU is going after MS over IE integration and nobody blinks when Apple won't even let other devices connect to iTunes.

Someone gave my wife a Zen Stone for running last year. It is great and just what she needed but I can't us it with iTunes so I'm left with hacking the music in or shelling out more money for a Shuffle. That is BS. I mean I love Apple products, own quite a few, iPhone(2), Touch, Nano, Mac Minis, MacBook but it pisses me off when another company has a great product and it won't work with an Apple product because of Apple. You suck Apple when it comes to playing fair.

And who exactly pays Apple for the testing, development and support for Palm devices?
If Apple DID say it supported the Palm officially then every time Palm updated the device or the software Apple would have to test that is still worked, issue updates, etc, etc.

Why should Apple do that for nothing, except support the sales of a competitors device.
It makes NO commercial sense at all. The miniscule sales they might get in iTunes from Pre owners does not provide the revenue for Apple to offer official support.

No one forces you to use an iPod or iTunes, there are many other devices / software available. Therefore there is competition and options. Apple are NOT breaking any rules by trying iTunes and the iPod together. Just as all the console makers are not breaking the law. You don't see Sony making the PS3 compatible with the XBox do you?

iTunes is a FREE piece of software that Apple have provided for you to manage music and if you have one sync your iPod. Apple DO NOT have to provide support to any other players. Just as any other music software does not.

Grow up!
post #109 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobertoq View Post

True, but I used to use iTunes and its store, and I easily bought far more than $250 (the price of my iPod) in music from iTunes. Therefore they would make money from the Palm Pre. Since then, I left iTunes and switched to Amazon MP3, certain questionable sources, and foobar2000 and I am much more pleased with the service I am receiving and I would never go back to iTunes.

So you too like Palm are a thief.
Nothing to be proud of.
post #110 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by yuusharo View Post

What did I say? Interesting story - Interesting comments. I love this ^_^

I got a lot of heat last time for saying this last time, but I'll say it again -- if Microsoft acted the way Apple did by breaking the Pre's ability to sync with, let's say, the Zune software, the outrage would fall almost entirely on Microsoft, not Palm. By this, I mean that Apple usually gets a pass on these types of issues.

Its not an anti-trust issue, but it is anti-competitive behavior. Not that Apple doesn't have any right to, I'm just saying they're usually more forgivable than the other players for some odd reason.

ANTI WHAT . You may want to understand basic business info before speaking so you don't look so stupid. You read what some other dolt has wrote and then it true .

The truth is 85 percent of all itune's computer accounts are on window machines .
Apple may makes it but almost everyone who uses itunes is a window/dell/box/p/c acer gateway crappy box user. Do you see why there is no monopoly at 15 percent usage ??

Quote:
Originally Posted by legend79 View Post

I agree. I used to hate Microsoft with a passion because their software was crappy but more importantly because they bullied people into doing things. I used to like Apple; but now the tables are turning. Apple is becoming a pretty nasty bully and they seem to have that mentality that they can get away with anything (I know having worked there). Bully the carriers; bully the competition; bully the music industry. At the end of the day; no-one likes a bully (except obviously the fan-boys).

Sooner or later; this will catch up to them. Look at what's happening to Microsoft. The other reality is that the end users ultimately end up paying for this. Yes that means all you crazy Apple fan-boys. I know you love to dish lots of money at Apple; but in a world dominated by Apple in a similar way that Microsoft dominates the desktop; you WILL be paying a whole lot more dough for the same product you have today.

I'd rather see 2-3 companies do good; than one dominant one. Although clearly Rim still shows Apple how to make a big profit on a phone; I'd still like to see 1-2 more options there so a duopoly doesn't get created in the US (cause all US companies are pennies in the international market).

Feel better ?? good \\.Why are you angry with a piece of electronic software ?

As i said before all of the money thrown at apple is from msft boys like you .85 cents on the dollar . Real business people make agreements between each other to ensure smooth sailing,
Palm did no such thing and apple makes updates all the time. What should apple do ?
Apple already carries the burden of getting itunes to function on vista machines and that is a great feat in it selfThe pre users are sucker sSADA TO SAY THEY HAVE LEARNED THAT PALM IS an immature company .
Why are you angry with a piece of electronic software ?? Or does your tv remote anger you now ??
Apple after decades of being in the dark APPLE has finally confronted the evil gates msft empire.with fantastic ground breaking devices that everyone else copies. WHAT is wrong with that dude .
RIM is a fine company



Quote:
Originally Posted by mrochester View Post

And that's a very good thing in my opinion. Much like Apple blasts Microsoft for a lot of things that are actually the fault of 3rd party companies, it would be very nice to see Apple get a taste of their own medicine over iTunes and the Pre. Apple will increasingly be in danger of facing anti-competition sanctions as the iTunes base becomes more and more dominant and they continue to lock out devices that aren't their own. When you dominate an area of the market, you have to be VERY careful where you tread.

OBOY P[lease read the wall street journel or something.
My god man wake up
apple screams at msft ?? and apple is treading with itunes installed on msft machines ??. How dumb can you be .>>>anti-competition sanctions >>> itunes is 85 percent installed on msft machines. The itune base is you and all your window boys. Apple does not have to tread carefully or fear any thing.
PRE installed a mostly windows piece of software on there phone with out permission from anynbody or agreements from anybody
Apple is A TINY PHONE MAKER
A TINY COMPUTER MAKER
A tiny software maker. /
Apple controls nothing .
Apple is the little guy forever.
They have not restrained anybody ever in any way .
Palm has pulled the plug on apple a few times /
Apple would be thrilled if palm acted in a professional business manner. Thrilled .
REmenber apple never forced any one to enjoy there great products
msft did force people to use there software

Please read up on things before you follow the incorrect bashers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by smartz View Post

Option 1: Release another update to itunes. Stops further circumvention but allows the continuation of a cat and mouse game with Palm and potentially looks a bit like Goliath.

Option 2: Sell a vendor licence to all hardware vendors allowing 3rd party device support under itunes. They could price this extremely high, making it so the likes of Palm would struggle to afford it but say Microsoft could. The benefit of this is that with at least one official licensee, Apple have got good ground to then sue should Palm be trying to avoid paying their dues...

Option 3: Do nothing, accept that Palm Pre users are using itunes and be happy with it.

Option 4: Sue Palm based on EULA abuse etc...which is flakey

Option 5: Sue Palm based on intellectual/patent property abuse. Here is where i think Apple could seriously inflict damage on Palm. They could bring about a dispute based against the original Palm OS. It's well known that Palm robbed alot of their IP from the Newton. By backdating the dispute against Palm's original OS, Apple could reap serious money in terms of per unit royalties which in term could stake a claim on the underlying technologies used in the Pre Web OS.

The only certainty here is that we've not heard the end of this....

To quote the Oxford dictionary..."Palm off something, also Palm something off"

to trick or persuade someone to take something They palmed off cheap wine at high prices by putting it in fancy bottles. She produced fake stamps and palmed them off as genuine.

In related news Palm has started selling their own brand of Coke and Southern Fried chicken having been able to crack other well known secret recipes.

Great post
whats in a name ? 
beatles
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whats in a name ? 
beatles
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post #111 of 167
Has anyone considered that the reason Apple is being so quick to disable PRE sync capabilities is that it could be spoofing the DRM standards as well as spoofing iTunes? Until recently, with the advent of iTunes plus, all music on iTunes was DRM'd. It is doubtful that everyone upgraded their libraries to non-drm tracks, and therefore still have the DRM music. Apple no doubt has many and varied contracts and obligations to the major labels and studios regarding DRM security, and the due-diligence it must perform to block hacks such as the Pre.

Now, I am not certain, but I am pretty sure that this is also the reason why, oh so many years ago, Apple blocked 3rd party mp3 players. When the iTunes store first came out, 3rd party syncing went the way of the dodo, because Apple had to prove to the labels that their music would be 'secure.'

All this seems to boil down to intellectual property rights, and whether they are Apple's or the labels' and the studios', it seems that Palm is totally in the wrong here, as they are infringing on other firm's IP rights.

No matter what you think of DRM, and I don't like it much, you have to respect the lengths that people and companies go to in order to protect their property.
post #112 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by parky View Post

And who exactly pays Apple for the testing, development and support for Palm devices?
If Apple DID say it supported the Palm officially then every time Palm updated the device or the software Apple would have to test that is still worked, issue updates, etc, etc.

Why should Apple do that for nothing, except support the sales of a competitors device.
It makes NO commercial sense at all. The miniscule sales they might get in iTunes from Pre owners does not provide the revenue for Apple to offer official support.

No one forces you to use an iPod or iTunes, there are many other devices / software available. Therefore there is competition and options. Apple are NOT breaking any rules by trying iTunes and the iPod together. Just as all the console makers are not breaking the law. You don't see Sony making the PS3 compatible with the XBox do you?

iTunes is a FREE piece of software that Apple have provided for you to manage music and if you have one sync your iPod. Apple DO NOT have to provide support to any other players. Just as any other music software does not.

Grow up!

Excellent comment. If Apple allowed Palm to use iTunes for syncing, it now becomes a support issue. As someone who works in support for a major software company, I can tell you that doing third party support is not cheap and fraught with peril. Apple makes all iPods so they know how they work and function. Apple has yet to deprecate any iPod they've ever made which means that iTunes has to work with a lot of hardware built over the years (I saw someone this past year in the airport still using a 2nd gen iPod).

Now introduce the Palm Pre to the mix. Apple had no control in making it and there are no recent published APIs for devices syncing to iTunes. Palm is using the experience of the knowledge of former Apple employees to impersonate an Apple product, which is a legal minefield. Again, if Apple allows Palm to do this, a future version of iTunes might break Pre integration unintentionally since the product isn't part of Apple's regression testing. All of a sudden, people start complaining to Apple about "WTF happened to my Pre and iTunes?" The support lines end up taking calls like this and the Apple store Genius Bars have to deal with it. Apple has to spend support dollars just telling the users "Sorry" and end up looking bad for something they have no control of. Sure, Palm might fix the problem in a week or two, but the damage in the mind of the users is done. And Apple hates anything getting in the way of the user experience.

For those of you who really have that big a beef with Apple and their iTunes policy, well, stop using iTunes. It's pretty simple. Use Zunes, Blackberries and Pres. Download Sunbird or Winamp or use Win Media Player on PCs. Buy your music from Amazon. But please, stop complaining that Apple owes you anything. The reason iTunes (and its infrastructure) gets paid for is because people buy iPods and iPhones. As for Palm, leeching off of iTunes is not a business model and they know it. This little game is just a delaying tactic until they introduce a music player of their own. But it's a dangerous game since I expect that Apple is examining how to sue these guys six ways to Sunday for spite alone.
post #113 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by mavi View Post

But, if, as some have said, Apple does have a 70% share of the digital music player market, then the fact that all of those devices are forced to use itunes is using monopoly power.

Except that they don't. You don't need iTunes to put music on iPods.
post #114 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by mavi View Post

There's not really any difference between what Microsoft was doing with IE with what Apple is doing with Itunes. Microsoft didn't force IE onto everyone who bought a computer, just people who bought computers running windows who knew what they were doing.

What was and is different is the market share, not the openness or closedness of the platforms. Apple doesn't have a monopolistic marketshare in OS, so they can pretty much do whatever they want.

In online music, that's a different issue. The key issue in antitrust is how you define a market. If you define the dominance of itunes relative to all installed music software, it is obviously not a monopoly. But, if, as some have said, Apple does have a 70% share of the digital music player market, then the fact that all of those devices are forced to use itunes is using monopoly power.

Monopoly, by itself, is not an antitrust violation, since there are certain benefits that arise, if it is true that Apple barely makes money off of itunes. No ipod, no itunes. Moreover, that is probably not a proper market definition (though it would be the one I would argue for if I were Palm). But the fact that vista owners don't have a computer that came with itunes says nothing as to whether or not Apple is being a monopoly.

I believe the difference at the time was, you could not uninstall Internet Explorer because it was tied to the OS. iTunes isn't tied to any OS. You can freely uninstall it and use another jukebox player on both the Mac and Windows. Since Apple allows 3rd parties to sync with iPod, there's no issue here.

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120 GB SSD/500 GB HD/8 GB RAM

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post #115 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by djsherly View Post

I hate to pick nits, but you asserted that the iPod is seen is an external drive and it was simply a matter of dragging and dropping. Thanks for the links (I knew about yamipod, for instance - which doesn't work with touchscreen ipods) but I don't think they really address your assertion, or at least, how it reads.

Sure, you can drop mp3 on your ipod all day, but all it's going to do is allow you to carry them around. You won't be listening to them using the device

Actually I remember doing a drag and drop on my niece's iPod a while back. Her Nano (that I gave her for her birthday) was formatted for Windows by her friend on a PC. Her Dell at the time had a virus and she couldn't load iTunes into it. She came over one day and ask if I could load some music from a disc she had. She told me that her friend had already put some music on the iPod and didn't use iTunes. I stuck the iPod into my Mac and my iTunes opened up and ask it I wanted to re-sync (format?) it to my Mac. I hit no. Then I placed her disc (not a music disc) into the drive and open it up in the Finder. I saw the MP3 files she wanted and just drag and dropped them into the iPod icon in the finder and it worked. At the time, I just thought that's the way it works on a Windows formatted iPod for a PC. But now that I think and read about it, maybe her friend installed some sort of app into the iPod itself, like "sharepod" or "floola", that allowed it to do that. Since everything that I read so far indicate that an iPod shouldn't be able to do that out of the box.
post #116 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sevenfeet View Post

For those of you who really have that big a beef with Apple and their iTunes policy, well, stop using iTunes. It's pretty simple. Use Zunes, Blackberries and Pres. Download Sunbird or Winamp or use Win Media Player on PCs. Buy your music from Amazon. But please, stop complaining that Apple owes you anything. The reason iTunes (and its infrastructure) gets paid for is because people buy iPods and iPhones. As for Palm, leeching off of iTunes is not a business model and they know it. This little game is just a delaying tactic until they introduce a music player of their own. But it's a dangerous game since I expect that Apple is examining how to sue these guys six ways to Sunday for spite alone.

Very few people that I know of buy or don't buy a phone based on itunes support. The way people complain about what Palm does you would think that the phone routed all phone calls through Apple's server. All Palm is doing here is getting cheap publicity and making people think that the Pre and the iPhone are equivalent. If Apple cares, which they obviously do, they should disable the Pre's syncing ability with every major update, but they shouldn't go out of there way to do it every single time, as this only helps Palm.

Of course, as a Palm user, I couldn't be happier. I had to get the Pre because I'm stuck on Sprint, not because I wanted iTunes. Now that I have some money invested in it, I'm glad that Apple is doing their part to make my phone more widespread. I wasn't sure when I bought my phone if Palm would still be around in two years at which point I would probably be switching to an Android phone, but if Apple keeps this up, the Palm will definitely still be around.
post #117 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by stonefree View Post

So then why doesn't Microsoft sue Apple for reverse engineering NTFS? Reverse engineering is not automatically illegal. The world would be even more dependent to Microsoft otherwise. This just makes Apple look like they're scared or being petty or both.

The issue isn't reverse engineering, it's that the Palm is impersonating an iPod, it is telling the computer and the user that it is an Apple product. And that probably is illegal, but more likely something like a trademark violation.

I just don't get why Palm is too lazy to support their own device?

Quote:
Originally Posted by iPhone1982 View Post

I would think that since Apple allows RIM to sync the Blackberry and isn't allowing PALM to sync the PRE it's more a case of very bad for Apple's Image along with slave labor they use to manufacture the phone.

Allow Blackberry
Don't Allow Palm Pre

I think you're mistaken - apple isn't allowing any current mp3 players or phones to sync with the iTunes APP, are they?

Quote:
Originally Posted by iPhone1982 View Post

That's not the point. Microsoft had to allow other Browsers on their Operating System.

Yep. Operating systems are expected to work with third party apps.

News flash: iTunes is NOT an operating system.

What I don't get is the double standard here - if you're going to insist that iTunes sync with other devices, why aren't you also insisting that all OTHER syncing software sync every device instead of just one? You're being hypocrites, either insist that ALL software sync with all devices, or admit that it's just fine for iTunes to only support Apple media players.
post #118 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by minderbinder View Post

I just don't get why Palm is too lazy to support their own device?

They're not too lazy, they want the millions of dollars of free publicity they are getting worldwide right now. Publicity Apple is more than happy to give to them.
post #119 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by zorinlynx View Post

The "Pre users" are not the enemy. They're not the "other side". Don't you people realize this?

Competition is a good thing. The iPhone and Pre are great phones in slightly different ways. Maybe the Pre's existence will kick Apple's ass into adding multitasking in a future release. Maybe the 3Gs will kick Palm's ass into getting video implemented sooner.

I agree, competition IS a good thing. So why isn't Palm competing with iTunes instead of being lazy and leeching off of it? What palm is doing is the OPPOSITE of competition, it's exactly the problem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by yuusharo View Post

And to those who notice their 70%+ marketshare of MP3 devices

Wow, you're really so clueless about "monopoly" that you think it means "70% market share"?
post #120 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by macxpress View Post

I believe the difference at the time was, you could not uninstall Internet Explorer because it was tied to the OS. iTunes isn't tied to any OS. You can freely uninstall it and use another jukebox player on both the Mac and Windows. Since Apple allows 3rd parties to sync with iPod, there's no issue here.

No, the issue at the time was that it came with the computer and that the computers couldn't be sold with Netscape on it. The uninstallability of it was never an issue.
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