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post #121 of 337
Quote:
Originally Posted by franksargent View Post

Yes because 0.3% of the total used car market is just such a big difference.

250.75M - 0.75M = 250M used cars. Really going to put all of an itty bitty dent in the used car market.

And so the PO fairy tale thread continues. \

If we're going to do this, let's do it with the right numbers. Here:

Quote:
According to the US Bureau of Transit Statistics for 2006 there are 250,851,833 registered passenger vehicles in the US. Out of these roughly 251 million vehicles, 135,399,945 were classified as automobiles, while 99,124,775 were classified as "Other 2 axle, 4 tire vehicles," presumably SUVs and pick-up trucks. Yet another 6,649,337 were classified as vehicles with 2 axles and 6 tires and 2,169,670 were classified as "Truck, combination." There were approximately 6,686,147 motorcycles in the US in 2006.

The number you've quoted is the total number of passenger vehicles and not the number of cars actually for sale on an annual basis since people hold their cars for some time and those cars are not actually on the market for sale. Since not every car that exists in the country is for sale all the time, we must look at the number of cars that are actually sold each year:

Quote:
In the year 2006, 7,667,066 passengers cars were sold in the United States according to the U.S. Department of Transportation. This figure Includes domestic and imported vehicles." (Department of Transportation) The number of vehicles sold in the US has been decreasing at a gradual yet continuous rate since 1999, when nearly 8.7 million vehicles were sold in the US. Looking back at history however, reveals that such decline is only part of normal market trends and most likely only a temporary affair.

So now we're looking at 750,000 divided into 7.7M. Now our percentage is around 10%. That certainly could have an impact on pricing.


Another source (Automotive News Data Center) reports that there were 7,884,601 cars sold in 2008. There were 8,269,351 trucks and SUVs sold, making for a total of 16,153,952 new vehicles sold in 2008.

Even with this number we're at about 4.7%. Considering the price depression that occurred during 2007-2008 due to a mere 2-3% decline in sales, I'd say that a 5% - 10% reduction in the stock of available automobiles for sales certainly could have an impact on pricing.
post #122 of 337
Quote:
Originally Posted by involuntary_serf View Post

If we're going to do this, let's do it with the right numbers. Here:

.....

Even with this number we're at about 4.7%. Considering the price depression that occurred during 2007-2008 due to a mere 2-3% decline in sales, I'd say that a 5% - 10% reduction in the stock of available automobiles for sales certainly could have an impact on pricing.

My first clue that you were way off was here:
http://www.edmunds.com/advice/buying...0/article.html

Here at Edmunds, we spend much of our time dispensing advice on new car buying. But there is a huge used car market. In 2006, for example, an estimated 44 million used cars will be sold as compared to an estimated 17 million new cars. While the average sale price of a used car is estimated at about $13,900, the average price of a new car is estimated at roughly $27,800.


so I did some more looking.

This Google answers thread:
http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=146894

led me to this government statistics page:
http://www.bts.gov/publications/nati...ble_01_17.html

which gives yearly numbers for the last 18 years, It suggests approximately 40 million (give or take a few million) for "Used vehicle sales (Used car sales include sales from franchised dealers, independent dealers, and casual sales)".

The Wiki page that you cited refers to NEW car sales.

Quote:
In the year 2006, 7,667,066 passengers cars were sold in the United States[5]

It gives this page:
http://www.bts.gov/publications/nati...ble_01_12.html
as the source [5] for car sales, but the approx. 7 million figure would appear to correspond to the entry on that page for "Passenger car (new retail sales)". Source [7] on the same page is
http://www.bts.gov/publications/nati...ble_01_16.html
which confirms that the 7 million figure is for NEW car sales.

So, anyway... the "right numbers"... 750K is 1.875% of 40M.
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post #123 of 337
Quote:
Originally Posted by FormerLurker View Post

My first clue that you were way off was here:
http://www.edmunds.com/advice/buying...0/article.html

Here at Edmunds, we spend much of our time dispensing advice on new car buying. But there is a huge used car market. In 2006, for example, an estimated 44 million used cars will be sold as compared to an estimated 17 million new cars. While the average sale price of a used car is estimated at about $13,900, the average price of a new car is estimated at roughly $27,800.


so I did some more looking.

This Google answers thread:
http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=146894

led me to this government statistics page:
http://www.bts.gov/publications/nati...ble_01_17.html

which gives yearly numbers for the last 18 years, It suggests approximately 40 million (give or take a few million) for "Used vehicle sales (Used car sales include sales from franchised dealers, independent dealers, and casual sales)".

The Wiki page that you cited refers to NEW car sales.



It gives this page:
http://www.bts.gov/publications/nati...ble_01_12.html
as the source [5] for car sales, but the approx. 7 million figure would appear to correspond to the entry on that page for "Passenger car (new retail sales)". Source [7] on the same page is
http://www.bts.gov/publications/nati...ble_01_16.html
which confirms that the 7 million figure is for NEW car sales.

So, anyway... the "right numbers"... 750K is 1.875% of 40M.

Thanks for providing more information to the discussion. That is very helpful.

Given these numbers (40 million used cars sold) it is still a very far cry from the 251 million. And the point about price effects is still a valid one. The 1.9% decline is still likely to have an effect on market pricing (perhaps less than 5% or 10% decline in available cars). We have evidence of this in the downward price pressures (as a result of reduced demand in the face of constant supply) that existed when new car sales declined a similar amount over 2007-2008.

Economic theory also tells us this: When supply goes down in the face of constant (or increasing) demand prices will tend to rise. This is not an especially controversial premise.

The point is that the government cannot reasonably expect to implement programs like this without there being some negative unintended consequences. It's almost a certainty. This is one of them. Most government programs are offered up only telling us about the positive effects they will have with little (if any) mention of the possible (even probable) negative consequences. We see this happening with the healthcare "reform" "debate".
post #124 of 337
Quote:
Originally Posted by involuntary_serf View Post

Thanks for providing more information to the discussion. That is very helpful.

Given these numbers (40 million used cars sold) it is still a very far cry from the 251 million. And the point about price effects is still a valid one. The 1.9% decline is still likely to have an effect on market pricing (perhaps less than 5% or 10% decline in available cars). We have evidence of this in the downward price pressures (as a result of reduced demand in the face of constant supply) that existed when new car sales declined a similar amount over 2007-2008.

Economic theory also tells us this: When supply goes down in the face of constant (or increasing) demand prices will tend to rise. This is not an especially controversial premise.

The point is that the government cannot reasonably expect to implement programs like this without there being some negative unintended consequences. It's almost a certainty. This is one of them. Most government programs are offered up only telling us about the positive effects they will have with little (if any) mention of the possible (even probable) negative consequences. We see this happening with the healthcare "reform" "debate".

Once you drive it off the lot it becomes a used vehicle.

There are 250M used vehicles in the USA today, if not a few million more, given the 2006 data are now ~three years old.

Demand for both new and used vehicles is, more likely than not, to be down given our current economic crisis.

Therefore, it is more likely than not, that there are more used vehicles sitting in used car lots today than there were in 2008 or 2007 or 2006 or 2005 or 2004 or 2003 or 2002 or 2001 or 2000 or ..., ad nauseum, ad infinitum. \
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post #125 of 337
Quote:
Originally Posted by franksargent View Post

Once you drive it off the lot it becomes a used vehicle.

There are 250M used vehicles in the USA today, if not a few million more, given the 2006 data are now ~three years old.

You're trying to weasel out of your incorrect number. The most relevant number is the number of cars being sold since all 250 million cars aren't being sold...they are being held and used by people.


Quote:
Originally Posted by franksargent View Post

Demand for both new and used vehicles is, more likely than not, to be down given our current economic crisis.

Therefore, it is more likely than not, that there are more used vehicles sitting in used car lots today than there were in 2008 or 2007 or 2006 or 2005 or 2004 or 2003 or 2002 or 2001 or 2000 or ..., ad nauseum, ad infinitum. \

Oh look, you're wrong: http://www.boston.com/business/artic...ront_shortage/

Quote:
Drivers are snatching up an increasingly limited supply of used vehicles at some of the highest prices in years, even as auto dealers struggle to unload new cars.



http://www.spokesman.com/stories/200...s-on-the-rise/

Quote:
That sharp U-turn in buying habits has led to a 5.8 percent increase in the price of used cars in the past year – including a 16 percent spike since the beginning of the year – and a shortage of the kinds of vehicles drivers were unloading last summer, according to the Manheim Used Vehicle Value Index.


http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124934409455203111.html

Quote:
"Cash-for-clunkers would normally be depressing on used vehicles; however, we are not seeing that yet," said Tom Webb, an economist for Manheim Consulting, which produces a used-car-price index. "Prices have been increasing, and we expect to see that again in August."
post #126 of 337
Quote:
Originally Posted by involuntary_serf View Post

You're trying to weasel out of your incorrect number. The most relevant number is the number of cars being sold since all 250 million cars aren't being sold...they are being held and used by people.




Oh look, you're wrong: http://www.boston.com/business/artic...ront_shortage/





http://www.spokesman.com/stories/200...s-on-the-rise/




http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124934409455203111.html

Did you even note the date of your first two links? No, didn't think so. May is not August. $10K+ is not < $3.5K. $10K+ is not < $4.5K.

Please constrain yourself to the actual Cash for Clunkers segment and timeline of that market segment alone. TYVM. \

As to the WSJ, you'll have to show us all of it in it's entirety, as I'm not going to subscribe to that tattered and torn rag of a publication.

Here, let me help you;

Clunker Plan Gives Car Sales a Lift

Note this article does not even mention the used car segment of the market, it is all about new car sales.

Oops, linked to wrong article;

Used Autos See a Rise in Demand

Quote:
The steady demand is helping keep prices firm, a boon to dealers and auto makers that have been struggling in recent months.

Quote:
Auto dealers say many consumers who go into a showroom and find that their current vehicle doesn't qualify for the program decide to go ahead with a purchase anyway, often choosing used vehicles.

They are not buying clunkers (e. g. vehicles worth less than what they currently own), that's for sure.

Quote:
"On May 1, a 2007 domestic pickup truck was worth $14,127; on Aug. 1 it was worth $14,710," said Ricky Beggs, vice president and managing editor of Black Book, which tracks vehicle values. "Last year, wholesale auctions couldn't get rid of vehicles. Now they can't get enough."

One factor drawing consumers to used vehicles is the tight supply of new vehicles. General Motors Co., Chrysler Group LLC and Ford Motor Co. all say their inventory levels are at historic lows.

Like I've already stated, once you drive it off the lot it becomes a used vehicle, and we all know that once done there is an immediate depreciation of several $K, thus the increased demand for relatively recent model years of used vehicles.
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post #127 of 337
Quote:
Originally Posted by franksargent View Post

Did you even note the date of your link? No, didn't think so. May is not August. $10K+ is not < $3.5K. $10K+ is not < $4.5K.

Please constrain yourself for the actual Cash for Clunkers segment and timeline of the market. TYVM. \

You don't like being shown to be wrong do you?

August 4, 2009: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124934409455203111.html

Quote:
"Cash-for-clunkers would normally be depressing on used vehicles; however, we are not seeing that yet," said Tom Webb, an economist for Manheim Consulting, which produces a used-car-price index. "Prices have been increasing, and we expect to see that again in August."

(The first statement only illustrates the person's ignorance of economics.)

Those other links disprove your claim that "Demand for both new and used vehicles is, more likely than not, to be down given our current economic crisis."

The links also demonstrate that increased demand (and decreased supply) will cause prices to rise. This has been the claim all along. So there was already upward price pressure going on. Clunkers will only exacerbate this problem (and the comment from the most recent article confirms this is happening.
post #128 of 337
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by involuntary_serf View Post

You don't like being shown to be wrong do you?

August 4, 2009: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124934409455203111.html



(The first statement only illustrates the person's ignorance of economics.)

Those other links disprove your claim that "Demand for both new and used vehicles is, more likely than not, to be down given our current economic crisis."

The links also demonstrate that increased demand (and decreased supply) will cause prices to rise. This has been the claim all along. So there was already upward price pressure going on. Clunkers will only exacerbate this problem (and the comment from the most recent article confirms this is happening.

With a small amount of explosives you may be able to open a hole in that wall in front of your mind. Also I believe there are reading and math classes for all ages.
post #129 of 337
Quote:
Originally Posted by involuntary_serf View Post

You don't like being shown to be wrong do you?

August 4, 2009: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124934409455203111.html



(The first statement only illustrates the person's ignorance of economics.)

Those other links disprove your claim that "Demand for both new and used vehicles is, more likely than not, to be down given our current economic crisis."

The links also demonstrate that increased demand (and decreased supply) will cause prices to rise. This has been the claim all along. So there was already upward price pressure going on. Clunkers will only exacerbate this problem (and the comment from the most recent article confirms this is happening.

Reread my previous reply, it's been edited (prior to your reply here).

Note all of the above is gibberish when applied to the Clunker price and timeline segment of the market alone.

As of yet, all you've shown is your excellent ability at handwaving.

As proof, go to the first WSJ link I posted, new car sales for 2008-9 are down from 2007, 2006, 2005, 2004, ..., ad nauseum, ad infinitum.

Demand for new vehicles has clearly gone down from prior years, and it remains so to this very day.
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post #130 of 337
Quote:
Originally Posted by franksargent View Post

Reread my previous reply, it's been edited (prior to your reply here).

Note all of the above is gibberish when applied to the Clunker price and timeline segment of the market alone.

As of yet, all you've shown is your excellent ability at handwaving.

You are the one guilty of hand waving here. I posted links that refuted your claim that used car sales are or would be down at this time. I posted links that address the price pressure on used cars both before clunkers and after clunkers. Both of these provide further support for the claim that the destruction of large numbers of used cars could create further upward price pressures for used cars.
post #131 of 337
Not only are we funding yet another unconstitutional government program with tax money that we really don't have, we're funding fraudsters. Nice.

Cash for Clunkers Scams Abound

Quote:
According to the Better Business Bureau, various phone- and cyber-scammers have promised marks that they could reserve them a spot in line for the program in return for a down payment or a fee. But as the Denver Business Journal reports, “The problem is that the program doesn’t use either vouchers or lists, and no fees are necessary."

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #132 of 337
Quote:
Originally Posted by involuntary_serf View Post

You are the one guilty of hand waving here. I posted links that refuted your claim that used car sales are or would be down at this time. I posted links that address the pice pressure on used cars both before clunkers and after clunkers. Both of these provide further support for the claim that the destruction of large numbers of used cars could create further upward price pressures for user cars.

Reread my edited reply (changes made before your reply).

Hasty generalizations need not apply. TYVM
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post #133 of 337
Quote:
Originally Posted by franksargent View Post

As proof, go to the first WSJ link I posted, new car sales for 2008-9 are down from 2007, 2006, 2005, 2004, ..., ad nauseum, ad infinitum.

Demand for new vehicles has clearly gone down from prior years, and it remains so to this very day.

Cute. Speaking of hand waving! I was talking about used car sales and prices. I believe I've been very clear about that to this point.
post #134 of 337
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Not only are we funding yet another unconstitutional government program with tax money that we really don't have, we're funding fraudsters. Nice.

Cash for Clunkers Scams Abound

If anyone in this day and age still falls for this crap, they deserve to be scammed.
post #135 of 337
Quote:
Originally Posted by involuntary_serf View Post

Cute. Speaking of hand waving! I was talking about used car sales and prices. I believe I've been very clear about that to this point.

What used car sales? Model years that are only a few years old, that's all you've shown so far.

If they can't sell new vehicles, they have every incentive to mark up recent previous model years (one previous owner of what was once a brand new vehicle), just to stay in business.

However, this is not the Clunkers segment of the market, by any means.

But you may continue with this greatest of all PO fairy tales.
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post #136 of 337
Quote:
Originally Posted by franksargent View Post

What used car sales? Model years that are only a few years old, that's all you've shown so far.

If they can't sell new vehicles, they have every incentive to mark up recent previous model years (one previous owner of what was once a brand new vehicle), just to stay in business.

However, this is not the Clunkers segment of the market, by any means.

But you may continue with this greatest of all PO fairy tales.

post #137 of 337
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post #138 of 337
Inconceivable!

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #139 of 337
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Inconceivable!

Yes, The Greatest PO Fairy Tale Ever Told, is truly inconceivable, unless, of course, you all happen to be a Carther.
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post #140 of 337
Vizzini: I can't compete with you physically, and you're no match for my brains.
Man in Black: You're that smart?
Vizzini: Let me put it this way. Have you ever heard of Plato, Aristotle, Socrates?
Man in Black: Yes.
Vizzini: Morons.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #141 of 337
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Vizzini: I can't compete with you physically, and you're no match for my brains.
Man in Black: You're that smart?
Vizzini: Let me put it this way. Have you ever heard of Plato, Aristotle, Socrates?
Man in Black: Yes.
Vizzini: Morons.


You misspelled morans.
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post #142 of 337
Quote:
Originally Posted by jamac View Post

Floory,
This car is for my wife and for her business.
We got the money and the 40k are no big deal.
I drive my 04 Prius with 100k miles and I will switch to a new one when they are plug in and get 100mpg.

What about the 230 mpg Chevy Volt?

"General Motors said Tuesday its Chevrolet Volt electric car could get 230 mpg in city driving, making it the first American vehicle to achieve triple-digit fuel economy if that figure is confirmed by federal regulators.

But when the four-door family sedan hits showrooms late next year, its efficiency will come with a steep sticker price: $40,000.

Still, the Volt's fuel efficiency would be four times more than the popular Toyota Prius hybrid, the most efficient car now sold in the U.S.Henderson said charging the Volt will cost about 40 cents a day, at about 5 cents per kilowatt hour."
~ http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/0..._n_256369.html
"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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post #143 of 337
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

"General Motors said Tuesday its Chevrolet Volt electric car could get 230 mpg in city driving, making it the first American vehicle to achieve triple-digit fuel economy if that figure is confirmed by federal regulators.

I'm curious exactly how they achieve 230 MPG.
post #144 of 337
Quote:
Originally Posted by involuntary_serf View Post

I'm curious exactly how they achieve 230 MPG.

Yeah, so am I. It's obviously mostly driving on battery power, but it seems that there actually cheap to charge.
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post #145 of 337
If I had $40,000 to drop on one, I'd so do it.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #146 of 337
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Yeah, so am I. It's obviously mostly driving on battery power, but it seems that there actually cheap to charge.

I guess what I'm saying is that Miles Per Gallon doesn't even make sense for an electric car. It's a fake number. A better value would be the (total) cost per mile to operate. This could include original upfront cost, cost of fuel (electric or gas) and cost of maintenance).
post #147 of 337
Quote:
Originally Posted by involuntary_serf View Post

I guess what I'm saying is that Miles Per Gallon doesn't even make sense for an electric car. It's a fake number. A better value would be the (total) cost per mile to operate. This could include original upfront cost, cost of fuel (electric or gas) and cost of maintenance).

As I understand it, it can run solely on the electric motor for 40+ miles after a fresh charge. Then it starts using the gas engine in tandem with the electric. Theoretically, if you drive less than 40 miles each day and charge up overnight, you wouldn't have to use gas.

I'm guessing they get that mpg figure from driving the car on a full battery and full tank of gas until the gas tank and battery are drained.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #148 of 337
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

As I understand it, it can run solely on the electric motor for 40+ miles after a fresh charge. Then it starts using the gas engine in tandem with the electric. Theoretically, if you drive less than 40 miles each day and charge up overnight, you wouldn't have to use gas.

I'm guessing they get that mpg figure from driving the car on a full battery and full tank of gas until the gas tank and battery are drained.

So it's a hybrid*? I thought it was 100% electric. Even so, with what you say it's still seems like a bogus number. Like we need a different number to normalize between different technologies.


*Yes it is a hybrid. My confusion came from my assumption it was 100% electric.
post #149 of 337
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

If I had $40,000 to drop on one, I'd so do it.

Same here. I've been thinking about a new car. Seeing this I think I'll hold on for a year or so when something comparable, hopefully hits the UK. It's £1.05 a litre here (a US gallon is 3.8 litres and a UK gallon 4.5 litres) which is about $7 a US gallon. There's a new windmill farm, gigantic- three times the size of regular windmills, being put up at the moment in the valley I live in. So with Scotland expected to be producing 120% of electricity through renewables within 20 years, electricity isn't going to mean 'dirty' coal.
"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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post #150 of 337
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

What about the 230 mpg Chevy Volt?

"General Motors said Tuesday its Chevrolet Volt electric car could get 230 mpg in city driving, making it the first American vehicle to achieve triple-digit fuel economy if that figure is confirmed by federal regulators.

But when the four-door family sedan hits showrooms late next year, its efficiency will come with a steep sticker price: $40,000.

Still, the Volt's fuel efficiency would be four times more than the popular Toyota Prius hybrid, the most efficient car now sold in the U.S.Henderson said charging the Volt will cost about 40 cents a day, at about 5 cents per kilowatt hour."
~ http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/0..._n_256369.html

Where do send my down payment?
I have solar panels so driving will be free.
post #151 of 337
Quote:
Originally Posted by jamac View Post

Where do send my down payment?
I have solar panels so driving will be free.

Actually, what I'd love to do is mod one of those cars to be fitted with solar panels and self-charge.

The Sun is a very plentiful resource here in Phoenix, Arizona.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #152 of 337
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Actually, what I'd love to do is mod one of those cars to be fitted with solar panels and self-charge.

The Sun is a very plentiful resource here in Phoenix, Arizona.

Well...Toyota is already offering a solar panel as an (expensive) option for the 3rd generation Prius and all it can do it run a few small components...the ventilation system (certainly not the engine). Granted it is just a start and I trust Toyota, more than anyone else in the business, to find a way to make it work.

We might just find out that the cheapest "solar" energy is that black stuff in the ground.
post #153 of 337
Quote:
Originally Posted by involuntary_serf View Post

I guess what I'm saying is that Miles Per Gallon doesn't even make sense for an electric car. It's a fake number. A better value would be the (total) cost per mile to operate. This could include original upfront cost, cost of fuel (electric or gas) and cost of maintenance).

Yep, different costs are involved. But, my understanding is that battery powered cars usually cost less to upkeep because they don't have the bits that petrol/diesel vehicles have. Batteries last about the same usually as petrol engines. As all this moves forward, I suspect the car companies will drop the back-up petrol engine altogether, thereby reducing the cost of the vehicle and upkeep. As charging becomes quicker and more widespread charging points become available and even battery swapping stations, these should become highly viable for the masses.
"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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post #154 of 337
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Yep, different costs are involved. But, my understanding is that battery powered cars usually cost less to upkeep because they don't have the bits that petrol/diesel vehicles have. Batteries last about the same usually as petrol engines.

All the more reason for some kind of "normalized" metric that takes all of the costs into consideration. Some kind of Cost Per Mile metric would probably do it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

As all this moves forward, I suspect the car companies will drop the back-up petrol engine altogether, thereby reducing the cost of the vehicle and upkeep. As charging becomes quicker and more widespread charging points become available and even battery swapping stations, these should become highly viable for the masses.

Possibly, but battery technology in general has been one of the slower developing areas. That we can do as much as we can with the small battery powered gadgets we all carry around is likely more a testimony to the genius of the electronic hardware (as well as software) engineers* in figuring out how to use less and do more.

*And mechanical engineers as well. Look at what Apple is doing with the MacBook Pro. They're trying to find way to put more battery into the thing. Just rather creatively.
post #155 of 337
Quote:
Originally Posted by jamac View Post

Where do send my down payment?
I have solar panels so driving will be free.

And like the laptops of old, you could have a spare battery at home charging all day in the sunshine and pop it in when you get home and put the other depleted one on charge!
"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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post #156 of 337
Quote:
Originally Posted by involuntary_serf View Post

All the more reason for some kind of "normalized" metric that takes all of the costs into consideration. Some kind of Cost Per Mile metric would probably do it.



Possibly, but battery technology in general has been one of the slower developing areas. That we can do as much as we can with the small battery powered gadgets we all carry around is likely more a testimony to the genius of the electronic hardware (as well as software) engineers in figuring out how to use less and do more.

We really might see an Apple car then, maybe?
I bet they could come up with some seriously good ideas.
"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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post #157 of 337
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by franksargent View Post

Car Allowance Rebate System

Welcome to the CARS vehicle eligibility guide!

The above links are not part of the Carther Conspiracy Theory.

Read 'em and weep.

avg fuel savings per traded car = 9.6 miles/gal (phenomefuckingnal)

avg drive distance per year 12,000 miles

total miles for 750,000 cars = 9,000,000,000 miles

fuel @ 15.8 miles/gal = 569,620,253 gal (avg consumption of cars to be destroyed)
fuel @ 25.4 miles/gal = 354,330,708 gal (avg consumption of new cars purchased)
Fuel savings initiated = 215,289,545 gal per year.
Consumers will save approx $ 560,000,000 per year on gas. ($ 2,60 per gal)

In 5.36 years individuals who have purchased a new car under the program will save 3 Bill $ in gas.

If there is a free market that will mean that gas will become cheaper, FOR EVERY ONE!
post #158 of 337
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Actually, what I'd love to do is mod one of those cars to be fitted with solar panels and self-charge.

The Sun is a very plentiful resource here in Phoenix, Arizona.

A carport with 10 165 watters on top will do the trick.
Hmm it actually will run your fridge as well and maybe your pool pump.
post #159 of 337
Quote:
Originally Posted by jamac View Post

avg fuel savings per traded car = 9.6 miles/gal (phenomefuckingnal)

avg drive distance per year 12,000 miles

total miles for 750,000 cars = 9,000,000,000 miles

fuel @ 15.8 miles/gal = 569,620,253 gal (avg consumption of cars to be destroyed)
fuel @ 25.4 miles/gal = 354,330,708 gal (avg consumption of new cars purchased)
Fuel savings initiated = 215,289,545 gal per year.
Consumers will save approx $ 560,000,000 per year on gas. ($ 2,60 per gal)

If there is a free market that will mean that gas will become cheaper, FOR EVERY ONE!

Yeah, but they'll just drive more in their nice new, economical and reliable cars. That said, I suspect your figures are probably pretty close to reality overall.
"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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post #160 of 337
Quote:
Originally Posted by jamac View Post

A carport with 10 165 watters on top will do the trick.
Hmm it actually will run your fridge as well and maybe your pool pump.

That's would be freakin' awesome!
"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
Reply
"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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