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Cash for clunkers - Page 9

post #321 of 337
12/19/09 at 4:11pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wormhole View Post

License fees collected.
Licenses processed.
Cars readied for sale.
Sales contracts drafted.
Loans processed.
Manufacturer parking lot emptied.
Truck drivers driving.
Oil consumed.
Cokes from dealer vending machines purchased.
Phone calls made.
Advertising paid for.
Ads printed and televised.
Sales staff overtime paid.
Coffee at dealership consumed.
Electricity for flood lights paid for.
Cars destroyed.
Metal recycled.
Tires re sold.
And of course license plates stomped and painted.

All this done by people who got paid.

All of which would have happened, regardless. It borrowed from future sales. In other words, the sales would have occurred anyway.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #322 of 337
12/19/09 at 6:18pm
Don't tell me that there are still people trying to justify and rationalize this program? Good God!?!?! I'll bet it's the same people who still think Obama is all about Hope and Change.
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post #323 of 337
12/21/09 at 8:04am
Quote:
Originally Posted by involuntary_serf View Post

Don't tell me that there are still people trying to justify and rationalize this program? Good God!?!?! I'll bet it's the same people who still think Obama is all about Hope and Change.

It's interesting how some people will try to justify or explain away blatant failure when the alternative is admitting they were/are wrong.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #324 of 337
12/21/09 at 9:51am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wormhole View Post

Please name a car for which this does not apply.

I did. I named several. Low value doesn't make the car bad. Specifically? My neighbor traded in a Grand Am like I was talking about (not under clunkers). The car was fine, but not worth a lot. These kind of cars...ones with 75,000 miles and 6-10 years old...were destroyed under the program because the government gave people more money then they were worth. There was nothing wrong with a lot of them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wormhole View Post

These are Marxistic ideas. I do like some Marx here and there. I also like French cheese.

Trumpt is about as far from a Marxist as I can imagine.

Quote:


I believe in the market. The monetary value of an object (car) is a reflection of :
1) Popularity
2) cost to quality
3) Advertisement
4) Brand recognition and acceptance
5) Word of mouth

Perception. That's what it is. Nothing more.


Quote:
A car is not Real Estate. Otherwise you would be able to deduct your car loan interest.

I don't think anyone claimed otherwise.

Quote:

Cash for Clunkers eliminated cars with no real market value.

I'm sorry...was that the point of the program...to remove cars with no market value? No, of course not. It was to stimulate sales and remove old, unsafe, polluting cars from the roads. [/quote]

Quote:
Your socialist "oh, the poor people can't buy these cheap used/trashed cars" ideas are irrelevant in the US. This is a capitalist country.

It's not socialist to complain that perfectly good, low cost cars have been removed from the market. It's not socialist to lament problems lower income people have. Several of us oppose this program BECAUSE its socialist in many ways. It's a program that is giving away cash. But trump is the socialist?



Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

It's interesting how some people will try to justify or explain away blatant failure when the alternative is admitting they were/are wrong.

I think they convinced themselves of how great it was. "Look at all the cars that were sold! What a stunning success!" Of course, they don't talk about how dealers are now hurting again. This is the problem with demand side economics like this. It's a short term boost.
To save time, assume I know everything.
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To save time, assume I know everything.
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post #325 of 337
12/21/09 at 10:21am
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post


This is no different than the housing market. The $400,000 house that is now worth $150,000 didn't suddenly become a "crap" house nor did the quality change in accordance with the price. Rather when the credit market and the bubble it was creating collapsed, the pricing reverted to what someone considers an appropriate cost for shelter.

"I don't think anyone claimed otherwise. "
yes I want oil genocide.
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yes I want oil genocide.
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post #326 of 337
12/21/09 at 10:25am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wormhole View Post

"I don't think anyone claimed otherwise. "

He didn't say cars were real estate. He made a comparison to of cost and quality. Is he wrong?
To save time, assume I know everything.
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To save time, assume I know everything.
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post #327 of 337
12/21/09 at 3:45pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

It's interesting how some people will try to justify or explain away blatant failure when the alternative is admitting they were/are wrong.

You mean like pretending they aren't Republicans or responsible for George Bush? Oh, no, I'm a Constitutionalist or uh, I'm a Libertarian!

I voted for Obama and sure, he had a rocky start. I think the health plan thing was really stupid to push as the first agenda item but on the foreign policy aspect he's done rather well in reversing some of the damage under Bush.

Economy wise, eh...we didn't have a meltdown and that looked very possible last year this time. Heck, banks are even paying back TARP money. So not so bad there.
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post #328 of 337
12/21/09 at 3:45pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by involuntary_serf View Post

Don't tell me that there are still people trying to justify and rationalize this program? Good God!?!?! I'll bet it's the same people who still think Obama is all about Hope and Change.

Thank you for your opinion.
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post #329 of 337
12/21/09 at 3:47pm
You know, I recall being told it was un-american to criticize our president in the middle of a war. How funny that "change" has occurred quite rapidly.
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post #330 of 337
12/21/09 at 3:57pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post

You mean like pretending they aren't Republicans or responsible for George Bush? Oh, no, I'm a Constitutionalist or uh, I'm a Libertarian!

I voted for Obama and sure, he had a rocky start. I think the health plan thing was really stupid to push as the first agenda item but on the foreign policy aspect he's done rather well in reversing some of the damage under Bush.

Economy wise, eh...we didn't have a meltdown and that looked very possible last year this time. Heck, banks are even paying back TARP money. So not so bad there.

Veiled ad-hom noted.

You obviously haven't read my posts clearly stating that I believe my voting for Bush was a mistake. Back then I voted out of fear, not principle. Won't happen again.

As for party affiliation, I'm currently not registered with any. Both major parties are corrupt to the core.

Voting on principle instead of for the lesser of two evils is quite liberating. I highly recommend it.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #331 of 337
12/21/09 at 3:58pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post

You know, I recall being told it was un-american to criticize our president in the middle of a war. How funny that "change" has occurred quite rapidly.

Well, criticizing the president during wartime is one thing. Trying to undermine support for troops that are actually in the field is another altogether. When you see that happening, let me know and I will be right there beside you in opposition of those people.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #332 of 337
12/21/09 at 4:32pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post

Thank you for your opinion.

Is it my opinion that there are still people trying to justify and rationalize this program? That looks like a fact.
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post #333 of 337
12/21/09 at 5:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by involuntary_serf View Post

Is it my opinion that there are still people trying to justify and rationalize this program? That looks like a fact.

Your characterization the program requires further "justification and rationalization" beyond the stated goals and achievements is opinion, yes. You also voiced your opinion of those that support the program are mere Obama dupes.

Are you unable to read your own statements and see the opinions in those sentences? How preceptive of you.

Or perhaps it is as I stated: you view opinions that fit your world view as "facts" whereas the opinions of others are either fallacies or based on some weak minded faith in hope and change.
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post #334 of 337
12/21/09 at 5:22pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post

Your characterization the program requires further "justification and rationalization" beyond the stated goals and achievements is opinion, yes.

That's your inference from my statement.


Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post

You also voiced your opinion of those that support the program are mere Obama dupes.

I stated: "I'll bet it's the same people who still think Obama is all about Hope and Change."

Which is simply a guess of who is defending the program.


Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post

Or perhaps it is as I stated: you view opinions that fit your world view as "facts" whereas the opinions of others are either fallacies or based on some weak minded faith in hope and change.

Yes, I'm sure that's what it is.

Anyway, meta-discussion over. Do you have any more rationalization and defense of this program to offer?
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post #335 of 337
12/21/09 at 9:17pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by involuntary_serf View Post

That's your inference from my statement.

Your position is quite clear that you believe the program is a failure. No inference required.

Quote:
I stated: "I'll bet it's the same people who still think Obama is all about Hope and Change."

Which is simply a guess of who is defending the program.

A highly opinionated and biased guess.

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Yes, I'm sure that's what it is.

Glad you agree. That was your first correct assessment thus far.

Quote:
Anyway, meta-discussion over. Do you have any more rationalization and defense of this program to offer?

The program doesn't need any rationalization or defense beyond it's stated goals and achievements. Why is it your opinion that it does?

Nice to be able to assert a certain discussion is over. Sorry buddy I'll discuss what I like. You can feel free to stop discussing it at your own discretion and then it'll be over for you.
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post #336 of 337
12/21/09 at 9:30pm
Never mind, I'm done.
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post #337 of 337
3/22/11 at 7:45am
Irony's a bitch.

That is all.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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