Former employee hits Apple with unpaid overtime suit - Page 2

Can't the plaintiff file a subpoena to get their timecards from Apple?

My extra hours put in each week certainly aren't that way. More like sitting behind the desk trying to get numbers to cooperate for hours.

No salaried employee gets overtime pay. I would assume this guy was salaried.

The law is really old and really simple so it's amazing how screwed up it gets at some companies.

If you are paid hourly you must be paid the same rate for all hours you work plus 50% for any hours past 40 in a week.

If you are paid salary you've agreed to a certain amount of money no matter how many hours you put in.

That's it. You are either hourly or you are salary. Your status can't go back and forth for different tasks. The boss can't give you a special extra project and say you get a flat fee for that task on top of your regular hours. The boss can't say a certain set of hours you worked doesn't count because of whatever excuse. The boss can't look at all the overtime you racked up and retroactively reclassify you as salary. There really aren't any loopholes.

Pay stubs contain insufficient information for the court. It would include what they were paid, and possibly the total hours compensated for. It would not contain the more trusted/favored and detailed extemporaneous log (timecard in this instance) required by courts. That would contain the daily accrued hours, possibly by project/task, and supervisor(s) signature(s).

A prominent desktop publishing software company made the QA team all "QA Engineers" back before 2000 and stopped paying them overtime. Someone reported them to the Feds and the feds made them pay them over time. So if you are not a valid exempt employee (i.e. software engineer) then you can have a case with the feds.

The software Engineers did not get back pay.

By the way most of the QA team lost there jobs just as they got the checks cut under the guise of "Were moving QA to India".

Can you guess what company this is?

So this lawyer basically has to take his clients' word for it until they can get Apple to come forward with the time records - assuming accurate time records were kept.

Just a followup, having both run and owned 2000+ employee high-tech companies, professional management utilizes detailed timecards to track budgets, feed decision tools, and to make prudent adjustments. Requiring employees to work additional nn hours, i.e., "doing it for the team", "be happy you have a job", etc. without compensation, whether in immediate payment/bonus/deferred compensation/agreed to compensation-in-kind/stock or options, is manipulative, dishonest, theft, demoralizing and not representative of leadership. Typically this is employed to cover up management planning or operational deficiencies. It certainly skews the picture of the total health of a company.

Doesn't sound as though you've ever retained an attorney.

No, I haven't. Have you?

Life is exactly as you describe it... and yes, I'm a consultant.

First... I was speaking about France TODAY and how organized labor reacts when you suggest employees should be allowed to work more than 35 hours a week. I was not talking about how France "saved" us two hundred years ago... nor did I mention how we saved France multiple times this century. I was speaking about the fact that they really lose their minds if they even think of what life would be like working more than 35 hours a week.

Second... I completely understand the difference between exempt/non-exempt. I've been both for a long time before I left to work on my own. The problem is THIS SPECIFIC case. There appears to be exactly NOTHING to this story. This is a former employee that is pissed off for whatever reason (or a profession litigator). I'm pretty sure if it was a problem while he was an employee... he should have made it an issue back then. Instead... we get this.

I believe that was implied when the article said they expect to get data from Apple during the discovery phase which will support their position. They have to file the lawsuit first, and then request the documents via discovery.

The suit was a bit vague as to why the plantiff feels he is owed over time or specifics as to how Apple kept track of his hours. A previous poster stated that in his experience as an early Apple Store employee it was pretty informal. If that is still the case, it's concievable that there is a manager at an Appe Store (if that's where this was) who keeps asking his employees to stay an extra hour here or there. If that's not recorded anyplace, he's going to have a tough case.

If they do have a timecard system, it's also possible that a manager is telling people to punch out and then get back to work. Or they are only entering 40 hours in the payroll system when the timecard says 45 hours. Wouldn't be the first time we've heard of things like that happening. Maybe Apple just has a bad manager at one of their stores. That doesn't mean Apple is systematically trying to screw people out of their paychecks.

We also don't know if they guy tried to resolve the problem with Apple's HR or payroll departments. Maybe he was incompetent and was fired, and now has an ax to grind. Maybe he quit for a completely unrelated reason, and now he can't find a new job so he's trying to squeeze a few more bucks out of Apple.

I agree with VinitaBoy we have repaid any debts we had with our involvement in the two world wars. I no this is not politically correct but my experiences with the French have shown them to be arrogant, rude, cheap, boorish and wimps.

I got it bad enough just calling them lazy...

I'm a professional (exempt) at a chemical company. Our standard work week is 37.5 hours. However, more often than not, I am putting in 50+ hours per week in order to get my work done. My salary reflects the fact that I am "expected" to work more than 37.5 hours if the need arises.

We have non-exempt technologists in our laboratories. Their standard work week is also 37.5 hours. If a non-exempt works more than 37.5 hours, they are required to submit for overtime pay. However, they must get approval from their supervisor prior to working any overtime hours.

There are some non-exempts who work "overtime" just to get "caught up" or "ahead" in their work-load. But, they do not get approval from their supervisor, and subsequently don't get paid for the overtime hours.

We have had in the past, non-exempts who were let go for performance related issues and then tried to sue for unpaid "overtime" hours...even though the overtime hours they worked were not approved, and not recorded.

Where the problem lies, is if the company "requires" non-exempts to work overtime, and then doesn't pay them for the additional hours worked.

Agreed, your just hurting yourself with this dream that all hard working people don't claim overtime. You might not claim it, but Joe Smoe next door, who is doing the same overtime is claiming it and profitting by it. As well, the company isn't going to care about your health. Eventually these type of employees, that do OT for free, learn it isn't worth it. The company as well may not even know your doing this "hard work" if you don't claim the overtime.

As a supervisor of employees I've seen too many times when an employee can't say "No" to her colleagues, and ends up doing OT for free, then having health problem and realizing it ain't worth it.

As a business owner, FLSA compliance is really tricky. I have a consulting engineering firm; for us about half the office is clearly exempt or non-exempt and the other half is somewhere in the middle. We end up with three classes of people: non-exempt with time-and-a-half OT, exempt with straight-time OT, and exempt with no OT, and try to match the best practices of similar employers in the area.

You could be exempt if you make twice minimum wage, and meet certain other criteria such as specialized training or certifications. Does a college degree count? Does it have to be an ABET college? Did you have to pass your EIT? It really is a mess.

If Apple classified the employees non-exempt and did not pay them time-and-a-half OT, then they are clearly at fault. What I see much more often is that employers get dinged for "wrongly" classifying employees as exempt.

I'll add a caveat on that one; if you are doing OT, someone should know. If you want to get paid, you better count it. If you want the professional development and hope to make the money back in Bonus, your supervisor (and ideally their supervisor) needs to know.

Many companies (mine included) send mixed messages on billing overtime. For employees that should be exempt (irregardless of FLSA) that get hourly OT, I am happy to pay for hours worked, but it has to be reasonable and I really would prefer to not pay for your learning curve or voluntary lunch seminars you attend. If you are burning the midnight oil because you goofed off for two hours during the day, I don't want to see that either. If you screwed up and have to re-work something after hours... I am a little begrudging.

When you talk about 1.5x OT, 8-hour days, and some of the other crap, well, I get much more sensitive about it; it gets out of hand too quickly.

And what exact experiences would those have been? Having spent 10 days in France recently I found them charming, intelligent, and very classy, both in the countryside and in the heart of Paris.

Suits like this are filed every day, and that's the way it's supposed to be. Courts are there to settle intractable questions of fact and law. The plaintiff says he was "required" to work overtime hours but wasn't compensated for them. He, not unreasonably in my opinion, doesn't have records that provide all the details and asks the court to compel Apple to provide such records through the discovery process. Again, that's how the system works, nothing to get excited about here. Frankly I think he'll have a hard time making a case based on data that Apple provides, because I expect the data will be internally consistent. That is, if Apple recorded that the plaintiff worked 60 hours in a given week, he was almost certainly paid for 60 hours (to not do so would be incredibly stupid). The reason question will likely come down to whether the employee was required to work overtime hours that were never recorded. So then they would be looking for an email or memo referring to that (illegal) practice. I doubt this is a frivilous case, because it will be a hard case to win. If they can't prove there was wrongdoing it will be an expensive waste of time. And if Apple has good records and good management practices they will win easily. So let it go to trial and see what shakes out.

It kind of sounds like my dad. I'm very afraid that he's literally going to work himself to death sometimes.

Well, generally, the way people act toward you is a mirror of how you act toward them.

You didn't read my earlier post. France had more casualties in World War II than the U.S., and had more military casualties than the U.S. in World War I.

Incidentally, the Canadians made arguably more of a difference in World War I than the Americans, since they won the Battle of Wimy Ridge, which was a turning point of the war. Canada lost almost 1% of its total population in that war despite fighting overseas. The U.S. lost about 0.13% of its population in that war.

I'm not saying the U.S. didn't make a solid contribution to both wars, but that contribution is eclipsed by those of other countries, most notably Russia/Soviet Union, which had more casualties than any other nation in both wars.

And as for the French, your experiences deceive you. I hung out with a couple of Frenchmen when I studied in England, and they were cool, relaxed, humourous and friendly. Same went for when I traveled to Paris and Nice.

Except for one little detail: We would have gladly let Hitler keep France if Japan hadn't stupidly attacked us. Once Pearl Harbor happened, we had to go to war with Germany, because they were united with Japan. We didn't free France (or Poland or Austria or anyone else) out of goodwill. We also turned away tens of thousands of Jewish refugees.

History is always much more complicated than what you normally hear about.

This reminds me of the time I was in Paris with a group, and one of the women said she thought it was rude of the French to not have placards in English in the art galleries to explain what the works of art were about. She was also the type of person who thought the best way to communicate when you don't speak the language was to speak louder and slower.

My friends and I quickly ditched her and her husband because we didn't want to be associated with them.

What, exempt from hard work? Why yes. Yes I am.

Only if you post the video on YouTube.

You call that a good day of hard work? I call that a shitty job — unless you own your own business, I should say.

If you're doing the work of nearly two people for one person's salary all in the hopes of your corporate masters one day throwing you some table scraps, that's just dumb.

Yes, we have to be absolutely grateful to France for its help in the Revolutionary War(whatever its motivation or circumstance) and the gift of the Statue of Liberty. I was very offended with the "old Europe" and "Liberty Fries" ignorance. The Statue of Liberty is most tangible symbol of freedom American has ever had, for native born and immigrants.

Why is that a horror story? One is not owed a great salary for graduating from college. Good grief, no. One has to earn it.

Ain't that the truth. One is not even owed a job for graduating college. A friend of mine knows first-hand. He's got a master's degree and years of teaching experience and was just laid off.

He's applied to several schools and has been told outright by at least two of them that they would rather hire 2 less qualified, less experienced teachers than hire one qualified, experienced teacher like him and have to pay him what he's worth.

Nonsense. The French are as creative and productive as anyone. Their government's brand of socialism, protectionism and onerous taxes seem like a disincentive to her citizens.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxation_in_France

Essentially, we are all at the mercy of supply and demand. If there's no demand, one has to "move to the food", so to speak, and find out what others want versus what "we" want. If we have the good fortune to do what we love and get paid for it, all the better.

You are right that history is complicated, but it contradicts your first paragraph. We didn't gladly let Hitler keep France, there were pro and anti war sentiments all over. We didn't declare war on Germany until after they declare war on the US.

France didn't help in the Revolutionary War out of goodwill either, but that doesnt mean that our CURRENT DISAGREEMENT in global policies should be reduced the benefits of former and current alliances in the historic records to childish name calling and nationalist bashing.

Freedom has become immutable. The amount of years past, the geography and numbers of battles fought, is irrelevant. The idea of democracy and the ideas associated with democracy are struggling against every kind of dictatorship, i.e. Iran's election.

there is no need to malign France when there are a lot of dictatorships around the world that has no labor laws at all, just because we have disagreement with our democratic allies.

are they salaried employees?
I work 50-70 hours a week easily and get paid for 40.
That's the bad side of a salaried job.

Good side I can take off if needed any time were not in a crunch

I am reading this with great amusement and I find it (almost) entertaining how people latch onto cliches, but I am also glad to see the larger number of enlightened posters on this forum ... To those questioning "french toughness": Ever heard of the "French Foreign Legion"? And: I have hung out with French soldiers when I was in the (German) Army. They are as tough and disciplined as any soldiers I have known.

As far as working 70-hour work weeks go: I have had a share of those myself (salaried/AEC industry/services), but currently I am working 32 hours (+/-) at 80% salary, and I am not sure I want to go back to a "full-time" job when workload comes back. It may be less money, but quality of life with a three day weekend is significantly improved. And then there is such a thing as efficiency ... I read an interesting presentation regarding Netflix company core values ... http://www.slideshare.net/reed2001/culture-1798664

By the way, there are not many nations in the "developed world" who have less PTO than the US. We should learn from what some of the European countries are doing (and that includes the German's who are cliched to be very hard working and anal about it, where 35-hour work weeks are becoming standard, with 30 plus days PTO per year).

What amazes me most is how similar the USA and France actually are in their Patriotism and love/hate for each other, with the one big exception that the French have much better food and drink .... :-)

yep. there's a ring of Psystar to this in that they claim they are owed for overtime but can't say how much or when they worked it.

There are few major companies these days where you can't pull up a digital paystub and your 'punches' from at least in an store computer. I work for Gap and I can do it from home.

so it would seem that they are claiming they were off the clock but held down and made to work longer. which I can't see. the claim they were scheduled more than 40 hours a week, perhaps. but not this idea that they were forced to stay without pay. or the notion that they wouldn't have been in a labor office within the week to complain if that was the case.

I recall a lawsuit against Borders Books here in Cali over some stores supposedly forcing their salaried Assistant Managers to work over 8 hours a day so they could, allegedly, save money on their hourly staff. from what I remember reading, only the highest level managers are now salaried, don't know if there was any back pay awarded but there likely was if it was proven true

also, given that a fair 80% of retail staff are part time, any worker is a fool not to be tracking his/her hours because practically every state has a law that if you are worked at a full time level for an extended time your company must upgrade you to full time with all appropriate pay scales and benefits.

Most of you are unfamiliar with overtime lawsuits and the labor laws. The labor laws in Florida may be similar to California, they may be very different. Apple is based in California. Unless you have been involved in such a case, all your comments are speculation about employers keeping time records, etc.

Do a google search for Rose Bell v. Farmers Insurance Exchange. This was the lawsuit that started it all. I was involved in this lawsuit since I was a claims adjuster at Farmers. Farmers classified the adjusters as exempt claiming they made administrative decisions (similar to a supervisor or manager) so they were exempt from overtime pay. This was obviously not true because as an adjuster, you had to get authority from your supervisor in order to settle claims. You could not make administrative decisions as Farmers alleged. This was proven in court, that the adjusters did not qualify in their work description as exempt employees making administrative decisions. Farmers lost. Farmers tried to appeal for 3 more years, and lost every appeal and finally paid on the judgment plus incurred interest.

Farmers never kept track of the adjusters hours. There were no time cards, punch clocks or computer programs for keeping track of hours. It was, "get the work done, we don't care how you do it." Only the clerical staff, which were classified as hourly employees, maintained time cards. It is not the employees responsibility to keep track of their hours worked, it is the employers job to do so. Since Farmers classified the adjusters as exempt, they chose not to track their hours. Overtime hours were determined by depositions during discovery, and adjusters received claim forms to claim an average amount of overtime worked per week during the claim period (which spanned from 1993 to 2004. The lawsuit started in 1996, labor laws allowed an overtime lawsuit to go back 3 years. The trial was in 2001, and appeals ended in 2004). The court determined that Farmers broke the labor laws by not keeping time records, and illegally classifying the adjusters to avoid overtime pay. Farmers basically told the adjusters the office is open 8 to 4:30, but you need to get the work done anyway you can, and we all had keys to the office, and worked from home. Farmers downsized so much, we were working 12+ hour days to keep up with the work loads. So we were working long hours and not getting paid for it, and the court determined that was illegal.

So it is very easy for a company not to keep track of hours, and pay an employee for a 40 hour work week, but make them work longer hours. It happens more often than you think. The Farmers suit caused similar lawsuits with every insurance carrier, and other industries as well. Insurance companies now track their employees hours and pay them overtime when overtime is authorized.