Apple's tablet will be more than a niche product - report - Page 6

No one does this for a "touch" screen. I've checked. The Wacom doesn't actually do what I'm suggesting either, though I've found the cursor to often lag the pen. This occurs even on my nice almost new now Mac Pro. The Cinteq will never be accused of being "fast".

I'm not familiar with this product you mention. Any idea who makes it, or how we can Google for it?

To expound further on a few of the differences between a stylus/finger and a mouse. (Sorry, I couldn't resist posting despite offering to bow out after my last manifesto)

Stylus and touch-screen interfaces are absolute positioning devices, while the mouse is a relative position device. The significance of this is that a mouse can make use of acceleration. Meaning, a slowly moved mouse has greater positional accuracy than a quickly moved mouse. This type of thing is impossible with an absolute position interface via a finger or a stylus on a touch screen.

Trackpads are a hybrid. They can use fingers or a stylus to provide either relative or absolute positioning. This is because they aren't overlaid upon a display.

Mice have been shown to be the more accurate for widget interaction or other discrete target tasks. On the other hand, styluses operating in an absolutely positioned manner offer advantages such as better tracing and curve drawing capability.

Definitely a trade off.

It's one reason why mice are difficult to use for anything other than what they were designed for.

Sometimes we might flick our wrist making a line. We can predict exactly what that flick will do with a tablet, but not with a mouse.

... some short translation...

I'm sure, that "NICHE" - is just main problem and, at the same time, the "killing" idea of new Apple product !

Let us reason.

- You can do any tasks using (Apple) computers, notebooks, iPhone (iPodTouch) and Apple TV.

- You can access everything via WiFi, BT, Ethernet, GSM, EDGE, 3G.

- You can use keyboard, mouse, touchpad & touchscreen.

- You have GPS, accelerometers, in/out audio and video, even compass.

Where is the place for Tablet? Where Tablet is better than those, mentioned above? More of this - following Apple's strategy - the question is much harder:

Where is (what usage) tablet will be not better, but UNIQUE !? And NO substitution of MacBooks and iPhone (iPodTouch) !!!

What do you think?

I see the only great place - hundreds million places (!!!) - it's a car. Your car. Full of additional (mostly digit) equipment, making your life and driving comfortable.

I'll start - one can continue - radio, audio, video, navigators, players/phones/flash cards integration, cameras ...

And nothing "in the center". That can integrate that equipment, give you "flexible" control and now days (+ tomorrow) communication facilities, able to show, speak and listen, ready to achieve your voice and touch commands, wire

texts of sms, or e-mail, or inet news... Etc. Something, like a touch-screen computer with all communication technologies. Like a Tablet computer, fitted (new cars), hinge (your today car).

One can say - I don't need it. My Answer - when you try it (especially if done by Apple) - you will change your mind. Nobody can change human pride.

Another will say - But there are many things integrated already? My answer - Ya, something and somewhere. "Nothing new", like they said when iPhone appeared. But, please, ask yourself - if you want to change, add, upgrade something - what are you doing?

Compare it with Apples SDK and AppStore technologies. And take a look on iPod and iPhone results.

Continue asking - and forum will find answers.

Well, went back.

If we look attentively on such tablet computer, we can find out that it is very similar to well known Apple's iPhone.

But !

Two problems - you know them - absence of multitasking and small screen.

What to do? Now, let us "think different".

Apple leaves now days products on their places and adds only missing. Real computer with real processing, touch-screen and OSX.

Communication and media translation - via iPhone. Next year Verizon promised its WiMax network - OK, Apple will add internal 4G unit for tablet. And will move to the car market. Alone. As usual. It's a tradition.

Everyone hates Aplle, prognoses death of the project - everything like it was two years ago. You must remember. "Nothing new".

Resume.
Apple netbook = iPhone + Tablet (with 4G) for use in car !?

Apple's "tablet" computer will use (as an external separate unit) iPhone resources for in/out communication and media translation.
The Tablet itself will be aimed for use in cars (mostly, but not only) as a center of car equipment digital integration (USB/BT/...),
screen+touch+voice interaction for control and GSM/EDGE/3G (via iPhone) + WiMax (4G, internal tablet unit) communication during the car driving.
Placing and using Apple's computer in a car as an information & communication center for driver - "killing" idea of Apple's tablet targeting.
Multitasking (even multi-screen, if for passengers), short OS, Apple's software, new SDK for mutual apps (tablet+iPhone), touchscreen+voice interaction software, upgrades - via AppStore.

Besides or without iPhone, Tablet itself will use 4G (WiMax) for network communication via Verizon (starting 2010), and can be used like small individual computer with touch screen.
One can use only iPhone, add tablet to iPhone, bye iPhone & tablet.
For Apple - no risk of its MacBooks and iPhones substitution by the tablet in the market.
May be, first attempt of Apple OS licensing if tablet in car base mounting.
Again Apple (thinking different) will open new market and new business on the base of previous success and technologies to be the first and No 1 in it.
Full articles:
http://www.deepapple.com/articles/25345.html , and http://www.deepapple.com/news/34814.html , in russian.

I see where you are coming from. I'm not sure if it will matter for patents but there is a distinction.


The Wacom has a calibration panel that lets you define an x and y offset from the pen position. One problem you get with this though is when you get to the edges of the screen.


I think it was the hanwhas duo:

http://www.engadget.com/2009/03/18/h...ndard-15-4-in/

There are others like the Logitech IO2 and IOGear Digital Scribe. I don't think any of those do pressure sensing but Apple seem to be quite good with their sensor tech - proximity, ambient light, accelerometer - they might be able to add one.

Extension of the computer line. Regular notebooks are getting harder and harder to justify 30% margins on given that many other offerings are just as thin and light.

IMHO, like the desktop market where Apple has nothing but high margin niche devices (SFF and AIOs) and no consumer towers I suspect that the strategy will be to replace traditional notebooks with some kind of tablet device (hopefully WITH a keyboard...convertible rather than pure slate).

Heck, the Mac Book is almost gone already.

Mac Tablet = iMac
Mac Book Pro = Mac Pro

Maybe a slate with a decent dock would work out.

Yeah, I just checked it. Never though of using it before, so I forgot about it. Doesn't work too well on the Cinteq though. it acts rubbery. Like there's a rubber band connecting the point to the stylus. If I'm not too lazy, I'll get out an older model and try it.


I was hoping it could be universal and useful, but it's pretty limited. It doesn't look as though it would be useful for actual delicate work.

I'd like it to be an extension to the computer line, but everything I'm reading says it will be a big iPod Touch, with the ability to show more than one page on the screen at once.

Have you looked into Pixelmator?


For people that draw, my experience is the opposite, and I don't run with the high end crowd. Plus, the people that draw comics for the web or syndication, they draw with a tablet. It's a lot more natural for drawing. Mice aren't the right form, and they have two speeds, so you can't draw 1:1, if you move too quick with a mouse, the cursor moves at a much accelerated rate. Also, pressure sensitivity means you can draw thicker lines if you press harder, doing that is not practical on a mouse.

You'll get no argument from me about tracing and drawing being easier with a stylus. Which begs the question, what percentage of people draw/trace and what percentage of the time are they doing those tasks...

I create lots of images for my work and also make animation. Since switching to a tablet, I have almost completely stopped using a mouse. Have three tablets for slightly different purposes (a Cintiq for sketching characters and scenes; an Intuos A6 for everyday mousework and drawing; a small Bamboo for travel with my MBA).

Once had wrist pain caused by over-use of a mouse that left me unable to draw or even really use my computer for almost two months. Since switching to tablets, the pain has never re-occurred; if I use a mouse, pain comes after just about ten minutes.

This would have to be highly refined in order to work, but:

what if the infrared "palm reader" in the tablet could tell when your hand was in the position it's in when it holds a pen? You could select a tool--a brush, a pencil, a wide nib--and sketch with it by holding your hand over the screen as if using a stylus. You could probably even get away with resting the side of your hand on the screen, since they now have oleophobic coatings and there's no ink to smear.

The closer your pinched finger and thumb are to the surface, the more pressure is applied. A cursor indicating the size and angle of the implement could guide your hand. You could make the size of the cursor absolute, so that all you'd have to do for finer work is zoom in to the part of the picture that you wanted to work on.

It would take some getting used to, for sure, but there would be no stylus to lose, and no issues with the precision of the stylus tip: You can see from the cursor exactly where the "stylus" is on screen, and exactly the shape of the mark it will leave.

To stop drawing, lift your hand up.

This would definitely be the hard way from an engineering point of view, but it would be worth it. From a purely competitive standpoint it would be a difficult and costly feature for rivals to copy. From an end user's standpoint it would be incredibly intuitive: To draw freehand, simply make the gesture of drawing freehand. From Steve Jobs' standpoint it would be insanely great and there would be no stylus.

Rarely trace. Ten years ago tracing was much more common.

Interesting idea for sure.

With a powerful Cpu/Gpu, and the proper software, almost anything is possible these days. It's just a matter of someone doing it.

Been there, done that. It's called 'pen grip detection'.

And Apple has a patent for it, granted in 2007 I think.
From http://www.freepatentsonline.com/7339580.html:

Here's another link:
http://pcjoint.com/2007/11/22/multit...apple-devices/

"pen grip detection means for recognizing contact arrangements which resemble the configuration of the hand when gripping a pen, generating inking signals from motions of the inner fingers, and generating cursor manipulation signals from motions of the palms while the inner fingers are lifted;"

The patent uses an array of proximity sensors for this.

Excellent. I thought it sounded familiar. Thanks for the link.

So there you go. A stylus with no stylus, and Apple's got the patent on it. If it was granted in '07 it was filed some time before, which means they've had a lot of time to refine it.

Game changer, right there. If it's not merely a touch screen, but a gesture interface, you have a vastly more expressive and intuitive vocabulary for communicating with the computer than the iPhone's various permutations of "poke at the screen"--which, at least, are appropriate given its screen size.

But you lose the tactile feel and feedback that you get with an actual stylus. I would imagine that accuracy would not be as good either or would take a while to get the hang of since there is not a physical connection between the hand and the point in space that the virtual stylus connects with the screen. There might also be some "retraining" yourself to write as if you were holding a stylus but without it actually being there.

As for those who do or do not draw or trace in a traditional sense on a computer, I think the number of those who do is low and confined to the design fields. However, with the technology and direct link available to a larger audience those numbers would go up as more people use a tablet as they would a pad with note taking which includes doodling and rough sketching to expand or clarify an idea. The advantage of having a stylus here is that it is a more natural interface (most people do not write or draw with the tip of their finger) than your finger with a higher degree of accuracy.

Actually, the neat thing about a something that senses the shape of your hand is that anything will do as a stylus. You can use a stick, or a coffee stirrer, because the computer isn't looking at the tip of the stylus, it's looking at your hand. (It could even sense that you have a stylus, and read its position in three dimensions.) Third-party styli are always possible for people who need the precision, but for everyone else it's one more thing to keep track of: One more thing to lose if it's not tethered, one more wire to fuss with if it is.

But think about the ability to just sketch something out by miming it. You might not want to submit the result to a building contractor, but it might make the cover of the New Yorker. If the size of the "stylus" on screen remained constant as you zoomed in on the canvas, you could do remarkably precise work as well.

I don't imagine it would take much more work to get used to than the keyboard. The main gotchas are processing power and refinement of the heuristics used to figure out where you're aiming and what you're trying to do.

That's what a lot of people think before they use any tablet. They think that drawing on one surface, and seeing the result on another will be too difficult, and it isfor about one minute.

I don't see any difference with this.

The only thing I don't see how they can do is pressure levels and tilt.

If they can figure that out, it's good.

An open question.

Has anyone used a Cintiq by Wacom? I've always fancied the 21 incher.

But for £2000 (UK price!), I felt that the 1600x1200 spec has lagged on its laurel for the last few years with little competition? Shouldn't we be on 2500x1600 approx' by now? For that kind of money?

But I wonder with the Apple tablet on the horizon if it would be worth the investment? 9 years ago when I tried a 15 inch Wacom 'screen' tablet...it felt like 'skating' on a slippery surface. It didn't emulate the 'drag' of drawing on traditional paper. Not sure how they are these days...

Surely Wacom are in for some serious competition if Apple enters the tablet space? If you can draw directly on a 10 inch screen with a stylus...what syncs with your Mac/Painter/Photoshop...doesn't that wipe out traditional Wacom slates?

We often talk about 'smudge' on glass and how Apple uses methods to get around this...but if a tablet is going to have a broader use...such as in creative media...will they also look into a surface that doesn't have that antisceptic feel as you interact with it?

Open musings.

Lemon Bon Bon.

This sort of sounds like the old CRT based pen input systems that would detect the bloom in the phosphorus as the electron beam scaned over it. They whereby all that great in the past and likely would not work with a LCD display.


Dave

Stop playing with your mouse! I hear it causes blindness too.



Sorry couldn't resist. I don't want to under cut the message here though, repetitive stress injuries suck big time. We get a lot of that at work.


Dave

What do you think of swype? I haven't had a chance to try that yet.

Should the tablet be just another computer ?
Another browser on your palm ?

Come on guys n gals - Apple is much too savvy at thinking different to know better.

Could it be a remote to the new version of Apple TV ?
Could it be the home automation missing link of a remote - which communicates thru WiFi instead of infrared to control many other devices ?
Could it come out as a piece in the puzzle of home automation suite ?

Could it be a gaming machine like the ipod touch - except that it holds your view of the online game that is delivered thru the apple TV - or your private cachet display (like a scrabble hand) and the game itself on the TV with the game hosted in a server connected to and accessed by apple tv ?

Think different folks !

You're the one not thinking different.

It seems to me that anything that can be computerized can run on anything that's fast enough and has a screen that will display the required information. The controls are easily done with virtual systems. We had these things over 15 years ago on our lab test equipment such as my Hp digital scope. Soft keys.

I don't even have to think different anymore, it's all been done by Apple already.

Right now, it's just going to spread into more devices of differing sizes and power. Look at the iPhone. It can already do almost anything. You wouldn't believe the breath of apps available.

I have professional audio apps for measuring and testing. I have a photo app that lets me control my camera attached to my computer over WiFi. I've got an app for inclination and declination of the sun for video anywhere in the world at any time. Now Farmers Insurance has come out with a free program for its customers that lets you contact your agent from the scene, take photos, fill out the forms right there. You can take photo's of things in your home for insurance, and e-mail them right to the company etc.

One town even came up with a pothole reporting program. Take a photo of the pothole, send it to the city with a location tag.

A medical program that with a sensor checks your blood when you're diabetic and sends the information right to the doctors office, and gives you much information all day long if you need it about your condition.

The question isn't what you can do, it's really what can't you do? That's the question that no one has an answer for.

Sure man. Not disputing that. Just that the tablet alone as another handheld mac as being portrayed largely may not quite be in the radar. The ensemble of apps and solutions around it is what I wanted us to bring some ideas around.

Like, are there any apps you want to see on it - any solutions using that ? I know any app can be written for the iphone and lots do exist - but how can a tablet be of use around such a solution - or as part of a solution to a problem that the iphone can't solve ?

For example, a community contributing traffic update is one thing I can think of - combined with GPS this can be quite useful for everyone. But that can be done with the iphone too of course.

In that case it only makes the case stronger for NOT having a tablet offering. Is that why apple did not put out a tablet yet ? I have seen Nokia 770, 800, 810 etc. come and go with not much of a crazy following (sure fanbois exist for everything - in general i mean) - much like the iphone.

So, if Apple is thinking of having some interesting ideas for a tablet, it would not be "just" yet another mac - what would it be ?

Ireland - I am not against difference of opinion - you need to specify how though - much like melgross.

Thanks guys/gals.

I chuckled when I read Ireland's response... I had just refrained from posting something quite similar.

Your post somewhat admonished everyone for failing to think of things or failing to think different. Ironically, the uses you listed have already been mentioned numerous times, most of them even in this thread. Many of them have already been implemented on desktop OSes or smart phones. What was it we need to think different about?

It seems that there are a large number of people who are under the mistaken impression that tablets are new and unknown territory. This simply isn't the case. They've been around for a long time and have been heavily researched by pretty much every major hardware and software company along with all major universities.

The problem is that the form factor isn't optimal for tasks such as... data entry. Because so many people need to do things like data entry, tablets are only useful in niche environments or as auxiliary computing devices. Thus it's my prediction that when the hardware is cheap enough, we'll start seeing them used in various scenarios, while full blown computers continue to be used for most of the tasks they're used for today.

Iti s great to be excited and to share ideas. I too am excited by possibilities such as those mentioned in your post. But at the same time, the rest of us don't need to be told that we're oblivious or somehow involved in group think. Some people here have been having this very conversation for over a decade.

Very much looking forward to the new apple tablet ... although it would not be a tablet and would not compete in the traditional tablet category

2010 is too far away ... release it now \ please

This is why I said that Apple's already done the thinking different for us. They've supplied the general purpose computer and OS.

Honestly, offhand I can't think of anything special. Out of imagination for the time being.

What I am finding though is that I read of so many apps that I would like that are written by others, that I sometimes get the feeling that whatever it is, someone is already working on it. 85,000 apps already.

The main advantage to a tablet is the screen area. Sometimes, the screen is just too small. Presenting information on a small 480 x 320 screen is just too difficult sometimes.

Also, possibly we can get full multitasking on a tablet.

If Apple does it right, I'm sure we'll see the incredible developer community we have come up with even more amazing stuff we would never thought of. I don't know how better to answer you.

The difference is that the technology is far better now.

Let's face it, the old tablets such as the Grid, didn't have the oomph they needed to break away from the usual way of doing things.

The latest tablets use a tired version of Windows with some tablet extensions. Big deal. That's not going to get anyone excited.

The hardware manufacturers didn't help either. They were too afraid to break from the past, and just offered heavy laptops that have swiveling screens.

Multitouch is the first new software technology that has a real application to a tablet.

Hardware has progressed enough as well. So has battery technology, though it's still not where we need it to be. But that will also be changing quickly.

http://74.125.93.132/search?q=cache:...&client=safari

I'm hoping Apple uses these soon. Sorry about the page, but it's cached. The EETimes servers aren't coming up.

*Zing!™

What Apple should do as a tablet or besides a tablet, is a full pocketable Mac OS X computer with video-out and USB 2 for full-blown presentations from NATIVE Keynote and PowerPoint files.

Something like the xpPhone, without the phone side and with Mac in it:

http://www.xpphone.com/en/product/configuration.html

What market do you think Apple is in? The help-out-the-teacher market?

It is not just the education market. It is also the corporate market and the domestic market. And the huge halo effect that comes with it. Apple will sell not only millions of such tiny Macs, but also other Macs, iPhones and iPods.

Those tiny Macs are called iPhones. Apple makes money on real (full-size) Macs too, and I'd bet they'd like to keep it that way. If you want pocketable, the iPhone is as powerful as you will get, for several years to come.

In 2010 there needs to be something that bridges the iPhone and the MacBook/Air/Pro ... That should be the tablet, IMO.

Yes, but it won't be pocketable - just sayin'.

It will be a 7" to 10" "book" like format with dual touchscreens on the "inside" of the book. Yup, not "pocketable" as such... folding/ rollout-touchscreen/ virtual glasses/ holographic pen computers and such... not yet really commercially viable until maybe 2015.