or Connect
AppleInsider › Forums › General › General Discussion › Iraq is next
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Iraq is next - Page 4

post #121 of 158
[quote]Originally posted by New:
<strong>Its an interesting point... You know Taliban and even Bin Ladens own forces where armed by the US... They didn't even have to buy them. They where given weapons by the US, even after Soviet withdrew.</strong><hr></blockquote>

No they weren't. There's no link between bin Laden and the US. He showed up with his own money and equipment. The Taliban were supported by Pakistan. The US did not give them any money. I guess I'll be fighting this lie for the next 50 years.
post #122 of 158
The looters and moral relativists will tell you that Israel is an evil nation that murders innocent Palestinians in the street; this is because in the warped mind of the looter, it is abhorrent for a Palestinian to be killed while hurling rocks or bullets and a soldier, but it's simply fair 'payback' when a dozen Israeli's are murdered while riding the bus home from work. They'll tell you reality is subjective; there are no absolutes; A = B.

All the while, they ignore the fact that Israel is the only country in the Middle East that supports freedom, individual rights, science, prosperity, and reason. But then, in the minds of the looter and the moral relativist, these proud virtues of a rational mind are the great evil that threaten to eradicate 'fairness', 'equality', and the 'even playing field.'

The US should vocally and actively support Israel in their war against terrorism. It's the same essential struggle we now fight in Afghanistan: the struggle to preserve the rights of the individual in the face of a collectivist mystic society that glorifies the carbomb as a legitimate form of political campaign.
post #123 of 158
Am I one of those persons?
"I reject your reality and substitute it with my own" - President Bush
Reply
"I reject your reality and substitute it with my own" - President Bush
Reply
post #124 of 158
I agree that the US should support Israel. However Isael needs to change the way it does certain things.

It needs to STOP building settlements. It simply is not their land beyond Israel proper. Right-wing settlers are as much fanatics as are the terrorists (look at Goldstein and the Mosque massacre)

Also, if you know about the situation beyond the mainstream press you will see that there may be more reasons for Palistinian unhappiness than simply disliking Israel. They are kept in poverty, many forced to live in dirty concrete refugee camps, and often, many of the children that are shot are deliberately prodded into action against the soldiers by the soldiers in order to have an excuse for firing on them. The latter case documented clearly by a journalist for Harper's where the soldiers where Lebanese Israelis, christians recently adoopted by Israel after they pulled out of Southern Lebanon. They are reknown for brutality and the killing of Muslims.

We are fed a very biased reading of what happens in Palistine; there are more than two sides to the story . . .and still we are presented with only one.

So I say: support but demand fundamentla changes.
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
post #125 of 158
[quote]Originally posted by pfflam:
<strong>
We are fed a very biased reading of what happens in Palistine; there are more than two sides to the story . . .and still we are presented with only one.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Which side would that be? Because most of what I read has a wiff of anti-israel sent to it. Maybe I should stop reading the NYT?
post #126 of 158
[quote]Originally posted by Anders:
<strong>
Like I said he is not leading a well organised society with a well functional bureaucracy.</strong><hr></blockquote>

So you are saying that Arafat's Palestinian authority can't even provide the most basic of police functions? Then why are we even talking about a Palestinian state?
shooby doo, shooby doo
Reply
shooby doo, shooby doo
Reply
post #127 of 158
[quote]Originally posted by roger_ramjet:
<strong>

So you are saying that Arafat's Palestinian authority can't even provide the most basic of police functions? Then why are we even talking about a Palestinian state?</strong><hr></blockquote>

I wonder too. It isn´t a state in the definition most accepted.

The reason?

1) In my opinion: Arafat but especially those around him was more occupied in securing their position and in power in itself than building up a real state. Instead one part of Hamas is providing the most basic health care, education (not in the sence terrorist training), food and shelter. Many people would die if it wasn´t for Hamas. Now this is not good or stable but it is working as long as the peace process goes along fine (Hamas provide the day-to-day survival and Arafat a Palestinian state in his negotiations with Israel) and Arafat and his organisation is seen as representing the state.

2) The peace process dies out. In my best judgement because Israel wouldn´t take the confrontation with its settlers. Actually I can understand that because it would without doubt mean that they had to sent in military against some of their own citizents and no state want that even when its most wise. But in Palestine this mean that while Hamas still do their job for the citizents Arafats mission fails and his legimicy drops very fast. And then you have a conflict between Arafat and Hamas. The logic propably goes something like this: "Hamas actually DO something for the Palestinian people internal while Arafat doesn´t do external. Perhaps Hamas could do a better job than Arafat?". And then suddenly you have support among palestinians for a terrorist organisation "foreign" policy (aka force all israelis into the middle sea).

Notice I didn´t put the blame on one of the two. Both sides have done things that make peace very difficult now. What is importent is to find a solution that can restore the peace process. If Hamas win the internal war between it and Arafat org. I see no solution. Arafat IS the only one who can both negotiate with Israel and be a representative for the Palestine people. Again: I do not like Arafat. He has done very stupid things like the above mentioned but he is the key.
"I reject your reality and substitute it with my own" - President Bush
Reply
"I reject your reality and substitute it with my own" - President Bush
Reply
post #128 of 158
[quote]Originally posted by groverat:
<strong>
2) They invaded a sovreign nation. That's not how we do things in the U.N. world. You get slapped for doing that.
</strong>
<hr></blockquote>

Israel? West Banks?
post #129 of 158
[quote]Originally posted by Scott H.:
<strong>
Palestinian terrorist bomb children.

Israeli military bombs Palestinian terrorist.
</strong><hr></blockquote>

Wow, this is so ignorant, it's hardly believable. Some stupid Palestinian terrorists killing Isreali people make *all* Palestinians terrorists at once?


[quote]<strong>Besides Arafat is the biggest obstacle to peace in that area. He does not want peace. He only wants more terror. There is no hope of a solution as long as he is in charge.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Well, hte same coulb probably be said about Sharon, don't you think?

Bye,
RazzFazz
post #130 of 158
[quote]Originally posted by beer:
<strong>The next target for the US - the head of he serpant, if you will - should be Iran, not Iraq. "Moderate" government or not, there is your prototypical terrorist state.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Um, and then go on and walk all over the world, targetting any country that doesn't comply with US standards of "how to be a good country"?

Bye,
RazzFazz
post #131 of 158
[quote]Originally posted by ac2c:
<strong>Well we could always hope that Iran and Iraq would go at each other again with maybe a little nudgeing from us. I was also thinking that there are going to be a whole lot of out of work Afghan soldiers at the end of this war. Rather than leaving them to their own devices, which would lead to more problems in Afghanistan, why not give them modern weapons, some training and point them in the direction of Iraq. Of course we would give them a whole lot of moral support.</strong><hr></blockquote>

This is *exactly* what created Bin Laden in the first place - "give those Afghans weapons and support, and point them at the big evil communist"...

Bye,
RazzFazz
post #132 of 158
[quote]Originally posted by Artman @_@:
<strong>....why is it that in many occasions the whiners, complainers and the critical comments to America and it's policies come from Europeans and Scandinavians?</strong><hr></blockquote>

Hmm, let's see, where might the critics come from:
Middle East - don't count, hm?
Far East - don't count either
Russia et al. - um, no, still don't count
America - sorry, busy being patriotic, besides, critics are "not with us"
So where else would you suggest critics come from, then?


[quote]<strong>
If the Japanese didn't attack Pearl Harbor and we didn't go to War in Europe then where would you be?
</strong><hr></blockquote>

Well, guess nobody would object to saying US involvement in WW2 was a good thing, especially for us. Still, all gratefulness shouldn't make us blind followers and unconditional supporters of *everything* the US does.

Bye,
RazzFazz
post #133 of 158
Quote:
Originally posted by Scott H.:
<strong>(2¼ctriginally posted by S10:
[qb]
-peace talks that lead to a solution


I think every thinking person choses the last solution. SO WHY NO NOW?????!!</strong><hr></blockquote>

Jeez. WTF's been going on forever? Arafat got a great deal last time. His responce? More terrorist attacks. So ask Yassir The Terrorist Arafat "Why not now?".[/QB]

So you really think Arafat is personally responsible for these terrorist attacks, maybe ordered them himself?

Bye,
RazzFazz

PS: I'm kinda wondering: Why do you guys outright hate Arafat or the Palestinians so much? I mean, sure, you don't have to like him or agree with him, but why this outright hatred?
post #134 of 158
[quote]Originally posted by EmAn:
<strong>I was talking about the Palestinian Authorities, not the citizens. But also, I think the Palestinian citizens aren't so great either. A lot of them are so anti-Israeli and anti-American it's sickening.</strong><hr></blockquote>

So the same is not true if you replace "Plaestinian citizens" with "Israeli citizens" and "anti-Israeli" with "anti-Palestinian"?

Bye,
RazzFazz
post #135 of 158
[quote]Originally posted by Scott H.:
<strong>

Yea right. Like bin Laden had his phone taken away too.

Time to stop treating these terrorist like teenagers that forgot to come home before 11pm. "Your grounded and can't talk on the phone for two weeks. That i'll teach you to order people to bomb busses! And I want to see those grades come up young man!"

Arafat needs to go.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Strange, I kinda thought the idea of war as a means of political interaction belonged to a bygone era... Semms like some people disagree here...

Bye,
RazzFazz
post #136 of 158
[quote]Originally posted by Scott H.:
<strong>We cannot cannot cannot legitimize terrorism as a way to obtain a political objective. It is outside the rules of war to target civilians. But that's what the Palestinian terrorist do day in and day out.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Unless in your eyes *every* Palestinian is a terrorist, there are plenty civilian casualties on their side too. The same is true for Afghanistan.


[quote]<strong>If terrorism is able to win in this century we will never see an end to it. It is very important to reject terrorism at every turn. We have to turn a deaf ear to the terrorist complaint. If we give them what they want then we'll never see and end to it. Rather if everyone stands up against it then we have a chance.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Of course this is just my opinion, but fighting terrorsim with large-scale war is just like fighting pest with cholera (don't know the English equivalent for this German saying unfortunately...).

Bye,
RazzFazz
post #137 of 158
[quote]Originally posted by Scott H.:
<strong>Is now a good time to mention that IMO terrorist attacks are condoned by many Europeans because they are antisemitic? It's like killing a Jew is understandable but when Israel reacts to destroy a terrorist cell then it's a horrible act. You can almost here people saying, "of couse they killed the Jew. The jew built a house there."</strong><hr></blockquote>

This is ridiculous. The point that makes the Palestinians target the settlers is not tha fact that they're jews, but the fact that they are taking away Palestinian land and building houses there. I'm pretty sure that the reactions from the Palestinians would be pretty much the same if the other party in the conflict had not been Israel but any other country.

Bye,
RazzFazz
post #138 of 158
[quote]Originally posted by NoahJ:
<strong>What has that got to do with anything in this thread. Just becuase somone supports a constitutional right to keep and bear arms does not make them a terrorist. If they did not get the guns at that show (please provide a link with evidence) they would have gotten them somewhere else. This post was so far off the mark and shows only bias with no thought. Even if it was only meant as sarcasm. </strong><hr></blockquote>

Actually, he wasn't criticizing your right to bear arms, but the fact that the NRA objected stricter laws in regard to making sure that they don't get into the wrong hands.

Bye,
RazzFazz
post #139 of 158
[quote]Originally posted by Scott H.:
<strong>No they weren't. There's no link between bin Laden and the US. He showed up with his own money and equipment. The Taliban were supported by Pakistan. The US did not give them any money. I guess I'll be fighting this lie for the next 50 years.</strong><hr></blockquote>

This pretty much contradicts anything I have read on Bin laden yet. I'll try to provide some links, but I'm pretty sure that CIA supporting the Taliban opposing the soviet invaders is taken as a fact.

Bye,
RazzFazz
post #140 of 158
[quote]Originally posted by roger_ramjet:
<strong>

So you are saying that Arafat's Palestinian authority can't even provide the most basic of police functions? Then why are we even talking about a Palestinian state?</strong><hr></blockquote>

So your proposed solution would be?
What would you propose to do with it's land and people?

Bye,
RazzFazz
post #141 of 158
[quote]Originally posted by RazzFazz:
<strong>

Actually, he wasn't criticizing your right to bear arms, but the fact that the NRA objected stricter laws in regard to making sure that they don't get into the wrong hands.

Bye,
RazzFazz</strong><hr></blockquote>

I think there should be box cutter laws too. If they got in the wrong hands... who knows what could happen!

The crucial memorandum will be snared in the out-basket by
the paper clip of the overlying memo and go to file.
Reply
The crucial memorandum will be snared in the out-basket by
the paper clip of the overlying memo and go to file.
Reply
post #142 of 158
[quote]Originally posted by RazzFazz:
<strong>
This is *exactly* what created Bin Laden in the first place - "give those Afghans weapons and support, and point them at the big evil communist"...</strong><hr></blockquote>

Uh, no it wasn't. Bin Laden isn't Afghan. He went to Afghanistan of his own free will to fight the Soviets. He had Holy War on his mind long before he decided we were the enemy.
shooby doo, shooby doo
Reply
shooby doo, shooby doo
Reply
post #143 of 158
[quote]Originally posted by RazzFazz:
<strong>
So your proposed solution would be?
What would you propose to do with it's land and people?</strong><hr></blockquote>

I asked a question about the Palestinian authority's ability to police itself. We can discuss possible solutions when my question is answered.

[ 12-08-2001: Message edited by: roger_ramjet ]</p>
shooby doo, shooby doo
Reply
shooby doo, shooby doo
Reply
post #144 of 158
[quote]Originally posted by RazzFazz:
<strong>

This pretty much contradicts anything I have read on Bin laden yet. I'll try to provide some links, but I'm pretty sure that CIA supporting the Taliban opposing the soviet invaders is taken as a fact.

Bye,
RazzFazz</strong><hr></blockquote>


Yea see that's the problem. It should be taken as "taken as a fact". The Taliban didn't gain until after the Soviets left and their main support came from Pakistan.
post #145 of 158
This is what I know: The US collaborated with the pakistani secret service in recruting mujahedin fighters all over the muslim world, Bin Laden was one of those.

At a point in time Bin Ladens forces where given a gift of several hi-tech sniper rifles as a token of gratitude for their contribution to the fight against the soviets.
Bill Bradley to comedian Bill Cosby: "Bill, you are a comic, tell us a joke!"
- "Senator, you are a politician, first tell us a lie!"
Reply
Bill Bradley to comedian Bill Cosby: "Bill, you are a comic, tell us a joke!"
- "Senator, you are a politician, first tell us a lie!"
Reply
post #146 of 158
[quote]Originally posted by New:
[QB]This is what I know: The US collaborated with the pakistani secret service in recruting mujahedin fighters all over the muslim world, Bin Laden was one of those./QB]<hr></blockquote>

So bin Laden was contacted by the Pakistanis or did he learn of "jihad" on his own and then travel to Pakistan?
post #147 of 158
This seems even more likey given some of the more current news stories. <a href="http://dailynews.yahoo.com/htx/nyt/20011218/ts/u_s_again_placing_focus_on_ousting_hussein_1.html" target="_blank">Read this for more.</a> Saddam just doesn't know when to stop...
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
post #148 of 158
roger_ramjet, to answer your question, if the PA can't even police themselves then they have no right being a country.
post #149 of 158
To bring this thread back, it looks even more likely that Iraq is indeed going to be next. Check <a href="http://www.washingtontimes.com/world/20020228-67420280.htm" target="_blank">this article for more information</a>. We may not bomb them, but we are looking at ways to remove Saddam from power.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
post #150 of 158
Sadam must be sweating for the last couple weeks. He knows his time is almost up.
post #151 of 158
The fact that he was left in power there is incredible. I realize that Geroge Bush Senior accomplished what he set out to in the Gulf War, but he should have taken that one little step further and removed Saddam while he was at it. The Republican Guard was decimated, Saddam was on the run, and we had all the troops there already. Now we have to go back and finish it after Saddam has had time to see what mistakes he had made, and possibly has had time to come up with some more nasty chemicals to thorw at our armed forces.

GWB Jr. Don't wimp out, if you go in fisnish what you start or we will have to pay for your mistakes later too.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
post #152 of 158
Do not ask for whom the bell tolls, it tolls for you Sadam.

<a href="http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/0,,3-222284,00.html" target="_blank">Support is mounting, slowly...</a>
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
post #153 of 158
[quote]Originally posted by NoahJ:
<strong>Do not ask for whom the bell tolls, it tolls for you Sadam.

<a href="http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/0,,3-222284,00.html" target="_blank">Support is mounting, slowly...</a></strong><hr></blockquote>

The rest of America's European allies are increasingly irrelevant.
post #154 of 158
Just send in Bond, James Bond.
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
post #155 of 158
<a href="http://www.washingtontimes.com/national/20020301-550540.htm" target="_blank">Washington Times Snippet</a>

Iraq is beginning to worry openly...

[quote] Iraq fortifies
Iraq's forces are making preparations for a U.S. military strike, according to U.S. intelligence officials. The Iraqis appear to be taking seriously President Bush's recent identification of Baghad as constituting part of an "axis of evil" for its support for international terrorism and its development of chemical, biological and nuclear weapons.
According to the officials, satellite photographs have revealed that Iraqi military forces have begun building "berms" earthen barriers around key military facilities and equipment. The construction is a clear indication that the Iraqis believe a U.S. military strike is imminent.<hr></blockquote>
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
post #156 of 158
yuppii... nothing like another war to boost moral... <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" />
Bill Bradley to comedian Bill Cosby: "Bill, you are a comic, tell us a joke!"
- "Senator, you are a politician, first tell us a lie!"
Reply
Bill Bradley to comedian Bill Cosby: "Bill, you are a comic, tell us a joke!"
- "Senator, you are a politician, first tell us a lie!"
Reply
post #157 of 158
Even Russia believes we will do it...

<a href="http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/0,,13-236335,00.html" target="_blank">http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/0,,13-236335,00.html</a>

Nuff said
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
post #158 of 158
yuppii... nothing like another war to boost moral...

Yeah, we should just let Iraq do whatever they want. It's not like they can't be trusted!
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: General Discussion
AppleInsider › Forums › General › General Discussion › Iraq is next