Iraq is next - Page 2

[quote]All wars have always been for selfish reasons.<hr></blockquote>

Well, duh. Maybe you should sit down and think about the repercussions of an altruistic foreign policy. But then again, that requires thinking, and 'feeling' is so much more important, right?

And not everyone here on these boards who supports the war are 'rednecks' or republicans. The fact that you need to stuff everyone who opposes you into some asinine stereotype is inherently linked to the above question.

[quote]Originally posted by macoracle:
<strong>I would love to hear who I am prejudice against though?</strong><hr></blockquote>

Those who disagree with you or dare to support the president being deemed "redneck" or "republican" indicates a quite healthy prejudice.

<a href="http://www.dictionary.com/cgi-bin/dict.pl?term=ironic" target="_blank">http://www.dictionary.com/cgi-bin/dict.pl?term=ironic</a>

hah!

Hey Doctor Gonzo, since you hate the USA so much, I think we can all manage to chip in $1 to buy you a plane ticket to Iraq or Iran if you prefer.

Tornados flatten the Midwest
Hurricanes ravage our coasts
Earthquakes kill hundreds

Who comes to the aid of the US? - nobody

Hurricanes, Earthquakes, and other natural disasters
wreck havoc in foreign countries, countries were there are NO
U.S. interests and who are the first to respond? - The U.S.

Germany and Japan owed billions in war debts to the U.S. What did
we do? We forgave the debts

Railways in India, Germany and France were falling apart
and who rebuilt them? - the U.S.
NY Central and PA Railroad went broke, who helped them out? - nobody

What about the Marshall Plan? Was that selfish?
How about the Truman Plan?

5,000 civilians are slaughtered in less than 2 hours on TV as the entire nation watches. What are we supposed to do? Nothing?
I don't think so.

Iraq refuses to let inspectors into facilities where we suspect chemical, biological and/or nuclear weapons are being produced. What are we supposed to do? Nothing? I don't think so.
Sure, we may look like a big bully for allowing sanctions on Iraq but those sanctions would be lifted if the Iraqi government would comply. Their people are suffering because the Iraqi government will not allow UN inspectors into those facilities. Yeah and the US is the bully.

I'm neither a republican nor a redneck and I support the effort.

I'm tired of everyone complaining about our actions when they have no response for what we SHOULD do.

People hate America and always will. Nothing will change that. It is totally impossible to please everyone. End the conflict in the Middle East and drill for oil in Alaska...the environmentalists will hate America. Make abortion illegal, the pro-choicers will hate America. Keep abortion legal and you'll have PRO-LIFERS bombing clinics (talk about ironic!)

If you think America is wrong for the response to September 11th, then tell me what we SHOULD do. No, you can't go back and change the past mistakes of old administrations. You're the Administration that is currently in power...what do YOU DO?

Word UP! I'll tell you what I'M going to do. Next car purchase I make will be an electric vehicle. It will take an effort and extra cash from my pocket but as an AMERICAN, I have the RIGHT to do this and support my own right to choose. This is what I'm talking about a non-violent method of fighting the terrorists. If our dependence on oil is so low to a point where we have no more interests in the Middle east the former terrorists will be BEGGING us to buy their now worthless oil. I know Exxon and Mobil will not like this one bit but tough! the government can put the smackdown on MS so why not Big Oil? Support alternative energy!

It's just not oil either. A lot of the US believes in Zionism. And before I get called a racist or whatever I am not saying the Jews are controlling the country. Take oil out of the picture and it will have some effect. But it wont get rid of the problem.

[quote]Originally posted by Outsider:
<strong>Word UP! I'll tell you what I'M going to do. Next car purchase I make will be an electric vehicle. It will take an effort and extra cash from my pocket but as an AMERICAN, I have the RIGHT to do this and support my own right to choose... I know Exxon and Mobil will not like this one bit but tough! the government can put the smackdown on MS so why not Big Oil? Support alternative energy!</strong><hr></blockquote>

Most new power plants (where the electricity for your car will come from) these days are natural gas plants. You think that maybe Exxon has a finger in that pie too? I don't mean to discourage you but I've never considered electric cars to be all that green. And if you live in a colder climate they are probably not a good idea at all.

Maybe fuel cells will be available by then. A lot of attention has been paid to them lately.

To add a bit more fuel to the fire.

<a href="http://www.observer.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,610461,00.html" target="_blank">http://www.observer.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,610461,00.html</a>

If they are not blowing smoke Iraq is next.

Yaser Arafat should be next.

[quote]Originally posted by Scott H.:
<strong>Yaser Arafat should be next.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Thank you Scott H for stating the obvious. Who is the original Bin Laden?
O'l Diaperhead.

He's also way out of his league now. Most of the Hamas and other Palestinian factions are tired of this old man.

What Israel did today is the start of their new war on the Palestinian terrorists. I'm all for it. Kick the whole population out of there as far as I'm concerned. But primarily go after Diaperhead, the offshoot factions and his kindergarten terrorist camps....

Oil? Maybe...Zionism? So what? Terrorists that kill innocent people and themselves? Dust 'em.

Arafat should be next?

God, what ignorance, the palestinians are beeing bombed as we speak, and I believe that is part of the problem...

Now bombing the palestinian police is certainly gonna improve the situation... Sure, Arafat is not perfect, and certainly no democrat, but have you considered the alternatives?

[quote]Originally posted by New:
<strong>Arafat should be next?

God, what ignorance, the palestinians are beeing bombed as we speak, and I believe that is part of the problem...

Now bombing the palestinian police is certainly gonna improve the situation... Sure, Arafat is not perfect, and certainly no democrat, but have you considered the alternatives?</strong><hr></blockquote>


Let see. The Palestinian murder a bunch kids this weekend and you focus on the Israeli military attack on known terrorist. Who's the ignorant one? Not me.

Palestinian terrorist bomb children.

Israeli military bombs Palestinian terrorist.

Besides Arafat is the biggest obstacle to peace in that area. He does not want peace. He only wants more terror. There is no hope of a solution as long as he is in charge.

[quote]Originally posted by New:
<strong>Arafat should be next?
God, what ignorance, the palestinians are beeing bombed as we speak, and I believe that is part of the problem...</strong><hr></blockquote>

No, the problem has been the ignorance of the past political leaders in Israel and the U.S.A. believing in this liar and in not blowing Arrafatass and his stooges to their pre-ordained paradise years ago.

In the past 11 months in Israel there have been 2,600 terrorist attacks, 500 were bombings and 50 were suicide bombings!

Now that Sharon is in the seat things will change. Sharon and Arrafatass have been bitter enemies for decades. It's time to settle the score! Talk didn't work and so the ineviteble is here.

I bet no one can tell me how many Palestinians have been killed in Israel by Palestinian terrorist. I know I can't. I read that there were 7 (?) Palestinians on one of the busses that was bombed. I bet Arafat kills more of his own people in his terrorist attackes than Israel as in trying to stop the terrorist.

You wont find a report on that in the NYT.

[ 12-03-2001: Message edited by: Scott H. ]</p>

If you look at the statistics there are by the 23rd of november a death count of 772 palestinians and 189 israelis. This is BEFORE this weeks tragic events.
Now most of the palestinian casualties are teenagers. There are also a lot of children in these numbers.
Arafat has never been weaker as the leader of the palestines. I for one fear the consequenses of removing him from power. The alternatives here are not promissing.

One more thing: These attacks were responses to the israeli killing of a Hamas leader. Doesn't this show how efficient Sharons leadership has changed thing from bad to worse. Man, this guy, (a former war criminal) is a walking disaster. He promised the people of israel security. The last half year has been the least secure period in a long time.

There is a significant difference between a Palestinian killed while hurling rocks and/or shooting at an Israeli soldier, and an Israeli killed while sipping his morning coffee in a local cafe. Do you have the statistics on that, perchance?

Either way, I'm not all that concerned about Israel/Palestine. For better or worse, Sharon is going to settle things now.

The next target for the US - the head of he serpant, if you will - should be Iran, not Iraq. "Moderate" government or not, there is your prototypical terrorist state.

Well we could always hope that Iran and Iraq would go at each other again with maybe a little nudgeing from us. I was also thinking that there are going to be a whole lot of out of work Afghan soldiers at the end of this war. Rather than leaving them to their own devices, which would lead to more problems in Afghanistan, why not give them modern weapons, some training and point them in the direction of Iraq. Of course we would give them a whole lot of moral support. :cool:

[ 12-04-2001: Message edited by: ac2c ]</p>

so the hundreds of palestinian schoolchildren who got in the middle of israeli f16 rocketing gaza this morning are terrorist? why the whole damn part of the world is terrorist right? The world would probably be better of looking like the apple logo?

Where do you get your news? <a href="http://www.ihateamerikkka.com?" target="_blank">www.ihateamerikkka.com?</a> <a href="http://www.liesaboutisrael.org?" target="_blank">www.liesaboutisrael.org?</a> Was this recent or is this one of those made up statistics people sometimes pull out of their ass when they don't know what else to say.

[quote]Originally posted by New:
<strong>so the hundreds of palestinian schoolchildren who got in the middle of israeli f16 rocketing gaza this morning are terrorist? why the whole damn part of the world is terrorist right? The world would probably be better of looking like the apple logo?</strong><hr></blockquote>

Yea that's what we're saying. All those children are terrorist

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Willoughby:
Tornados flatten the Midwest
Hurricanes ravage our coasts
Earthquakes kill hundreds

Who comes to the aid of the US? - nobody

Hurricanes, Earthquakes, and other natural disasters
wreck havoc in foreign countries, countries were there are NO
U.S. interests and who are the first to respond? - The U.S.

Really? I suppose you're not refering to countries that can help themselves because they have the ame facilities as the USA has.
I suppose you're referring to poor countries; Please find out what exactly the USA does to help and what , for example, European countries do. You'll soon find out that the USA does close to nothing in comparison.

Germany and Japan owed billions in war debts to the U.S. What did
we do? We forgave the debts

like is done now towards many poor countries that cannot pay off those debts, these debts are part of an investment, read on

Railways in India, Germany and France were falling apart
and who rebuilt them? - the U.S.
NY Central and PA Railroad went broke, who helped them out? - nobody

When? after the 2WW?, not a very fair comparison then.

What about the Marshall Plan? Was that selfish?
How about the Truman Plan?
No it wasn'r selfish, but with out the european and japanese market, there wouldn't be a market enough for American products. These plans greatlty helped BOTH Europe AND the USA, and THAT'A why they were planned in the first place

5,000 civilians are slaughtered in less than 2 hours on TV as the entire nation watches. What are we supposed to do? Nothing?
I don't think so.

Over 6 million people were killed inCentral Afrika (1996 I believe) in only a few days, through brutal murder.
What was done about it? Nothing.
There where no interests for the USA (and the rest of the western world)
Ofcourse the USA has to do something against such a terror threat. Fortunately we have the freedom to have our opinions on HOW.

Iraq refuses to let inspectors into facilities where we suspect chemical, biological and/or nuclear weapons are being produced. What are we supposed to do? Nothing? I don't think so.
Sure, we may look like a big bully for allowing sanctions on Iraq but those sanctions would be lifted if the Iraqi government would comply.
European governments have made it very clear that they donot want to get involved in any way in more violence in the Arab world. Political solutions haver to be found.

Their people are suffering because the Iraqi government will not allow UN inspectors into those facilities. Yeah and the US is the bully.

Their people are suffering because their economy has no possibilty to recover. Partly thanks to the Madman Sadam, but also partly thanks to the embargo.

I'm tired of everyone complaining about our actions when they have no response for what we SHOULD do.

Well the USA foreign politics are exactly that; telling what everybody else SHOULD DO

People hate America and always will. Nothing will change that. It is totally impossible to please everyone. End the conflict in the Middle East and drill for oil in Alaska...the environmentalists will hate America. Make abortion illegal, the pro-choicers will hate America. Keep abortion legal and you'll have PRO-LIFERS bombing clinics (talk about ironic!)

This is maybe the ONLY thing that is wrong with the USA, or at least in my opinion; It always thinks it's the most important, the biggest, the strongest, the BEST in the world.

Well, the USA is so in many ways, but so are other countries in many other ways, but they have at least they decency not to declare themselves so important.

[quote]Originally posted by New:
<strong>so the hundreds of palestinian schoolchildren who got in the middle of israeli f16 rocketing gaza this morning are terrorist? why the whole damn part of the world is terrorist right? The world would probably be better of looking like the apple logo?</strong><hr></blockquote>

Checked all the news sites...nothing of that nature New. Three killed...many wounded...not children.

Now, if it was one of the Hamas Terrorist Kindergarden Camps...I'm sadly all for that. These are camps where the children are trained only in fanatical religion, combat and terrorist intelligence. They become the suicide bombers of the future. Misguided kids.

If there was some way to re-educate them I'm all for it but its not that easy.

[quote]Originally posted by Artman @_@:
<strong>
In the past 11 months in Israel there have been 2,600 terrorist attacks, 500 were bombings and 50 were suicide bombings!

</strong><hr></blockquote>

Can you please give me a link for more details on these amazing figures?


Anyway, Sharon get's Arafat killed (wont happen) what then?

there are a few solutions:
-Kill all palestines
-a sort of apartheid system
-peace talks that lead to a solution


I think every thinking person choses the last solution. SO WHY NO NOW?????!!

....why is it that in many occasions the whiners, complainers and the critical comments to America and it's policies come from Europeans and Scandinavians?

If the Japanese didn't attack Pearl Harbor and we didn't go to War in Europe then where would you be?

As it is then, it is now. These evil terrorists really are jealous of what America has and the power we have. Power and assistance that other countries have asked for on many occasions. Good or bad...I wouldn't want to be anywhere else but here.

I just don't get it. <img src="graemlins/bugeye.gif" border="0" alt="[Skeptical]" />

(2¼ctriginally posted by S10:
<strong>
-peace talks that lead to a solution


I think every thinking person choses the last solution. SO WHY NO NOW?????!!</strong>[/QUOTE]

Jeez. WTF's been going on forever? Arafat got a great deal last time. His responce? More terrorist attacks. So ask Yassir The Terrorist Arafat "Why not now?".

Those numbers were taken straight from nrk.no, the norwegian equivalent of CNN and BBC. Their source in this particular case is <a href="http://www.afp.com/english/home/" target="_blank">AFP</a>, which credibility you can check all you want.

<a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/1690000/video/_1691668_mideast13_cooke_vi.ram" target="_blank">Check this RealMedia clip</a> from BBC as well, if you want to know just how many children were in the streets today.

BTW: Gaza city has exactly zero bombshelters.

edit: cleaned up links

[ 12-04-2001: Message edited by: New ]

[ 12-04-2001: Message edited by: New ]</p>

Man... Artman, I thought your first post was irony... I couldn't believe that was your actual opinon...

As I see it: Every rocket fired at Palestinian institutions = more suicide bombers...

Neither side is absolutely *right* nor *wrong*, despite the blatant biases in reporting.

Does not the Israeli people have a right to exist in peace and security? Of course they do.
Does Palestine has a right to the same? apparently not.

How do the Palestinians conduct legitimate 'self-defense' when their land is under hostile occupation, in the same way that France was in WW2 or Afghanstan under the Soviets? Or is "every" military act (including self defense) committed by Palestinians viewed as terrorism?

The worst thing that Israel could have done was elect a known terrorist, Ariel Sharon as Prime Minister. He is tarred by the same brush as Arafat, who also has a long history of planning and condoning terrorist acts.

Now for the Politically Incorrect stuff:

Sharon was (at least) partly responsible (as Israel's defense minister), with the Israeli military in cahoots with Phalange militias in the early 1980s, for one of the worst acts of terrorism/war crimes in modern times. These were a really ugly series of incidents which Palestinians will never forget, specially since the primary architect of these is now Israel's PM.

For the U.S. to continue to support this henchman is counterproductive; may this foster Palestinian/Hamas/Islamic Jihad/Hezbollah acts against US targets here and abroad? Is this the intent, to rile these already angry people even more? Peace is not the intent it seems.

If there was any justice in the world, then both Arafat and Sharon would be languishing in jail.


Some politically incorrect links:

<a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/audiovideo/programmes/panorama/newsid_1390000/1390979.stm" target="_blank">http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/audiovideo/programmes/panorama/newsid_1390000/1390979.stm</a>
<a href="http://www.badil.org/Resources/War_Crimes/War_Crimes.htm" target="_blank">http://www.badil.org/Resources/War_Crimes/War_Crimes.htm</a>
<a href="http://www.ummah.org.uk/unity/sabra/" target="_blank">http://www.ummah.org.uk/unity/sabra/</a>
<a href="http://www.jerusalemites.org/sabra.html" target="_blank">http://www.jerusalemites.org/sabra.html</a>

Good post!
What irony it is that the cooperation of these two men is at the moment the only hope peace has in the region.

Digging in the past is not exactly the best way to bring the two sides closer. Taking one side and calling the other "evil" is what got me started. I happen to have friends and family at both sides in this conflict.
Good thing at least one american here that thinks bombs arn't the only way to practice foreign policy.

[quote]Originally posted by New:
<strong>Man... Artman, I thought your first post was irony... I couldn't believe that was your actual opinon...

As I see it: Every rocket fired at Palestinian institutions = more suicide bombers...</strong><hr></blockquote>

I'm all for peace love and happiness but it ain't going to be in our lifetime. I also know I was treading eggshells asking that last question. Take it from a stubborn American. I'm pretty much a nice guy.

Love Europe, Scandanavia and many other places/cultures. Still think if terrorists attacked the Eiffel Tower, Big Ben or any other structure over there was hit and innocent people died you'd be pissed off too. And want our help in it.

Now, I went to the first news link and found this...

Â*\t"GAZA CITY (AFP) - Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon launched a second day of massive air raids on the symbols of Yasser Arafat's power, killing two people and threatening to split his own government as Palestinians accused him of trying to bring down their leader.
Following up on a "signal" to Arafat sent Monday by air strikes on his helicopters and offices in Gaza City and the West Bank, Arafat branded Arafat a sponsor of terrorism and sent in warplanes and helicopter gunships in the largest wave of air raids on Palestinian security structures yet."

As far as the Real Clip. I don't have Real Player and never will...it sucks. If there is another format (QT) I'll take a look.

Man, it's tough being an American these days...

:-)

Don't get me wrong, I was absolutly furrious about the WTC attacks. But the topic of this thread was who to bomb next...

I also know most americans to be really nice... and quick to start calling for easy solutions... :-)

The statistics where ment to show that there are victims on both sides in this conflict. There are many badguys on both sides here as well.
The shelling today came at a time during the day when the first shift of children where on their way home from school and the second Where on their way to school. (they do this because they don't have enough schools for all the children.)
Now the israeli millitary knows this all to well. Of course they didn't want to kill any children. But much of the intention is to put as much fear in the palestinian people as the suicide attacks did to the israelis...

If you think its hard beeing american, try Palestinian, Pashtun or Israeli for that matter, for a few days and I think you'll see how fortunat you are...

[quote]Originally posted by New:
<strong>If you think its hard beeing american, try Palestinian, Pashtun or Israeli for that matter, for a few days and I think you'll see how fortunat you are...</strong><hr></blockquote>

No, I bet I am. I think that the U.S.A. should keep out of this situation for now. We more or less are. We have bigger fish to fry. It would be funny if one of our 15,000 LB Daisy Bombs "went off course" and landed on Hussain's lap though...

[quote]....... It would be funny if one of our 15,000 LB Daisy Bombs "went off course" and landed on Hussain's lap though...<hr></blockquote>

Joking apart, that is fairly redundant. The US Air Force can and does fly the length and breadth of Iraq with virtual impunity, ever since the Gulf War, bombing whatever selective targets are on the take-out list. To lob some daisy cutter bombs (or better yet, smart bombs) at Saddam Hussein's residence(s) could have been done ten thousand times over since then. The orders to finish off Hussein could have been given at any time, but for a variety of reasons about which we have not been informed, (or perhaps outside of we-the-people's 'need to know'), have not. He and his henchmen are still sitting in power living a life of luxury whilst millions of his subjects are starving to death, although that is not our concern. Perhaps whoever makes the military decisions re. the Iraq theater regards Saddam Hussein as less of a bogeyman than we are led to believe? And if so, why? What is missing?

[quote]Originally posted by Samantha Joanne Ollendale:
<strong>Does not the Israeli people have a right to exist in peace and security? Of course they do.
Does Palestine has a right to the same? apparently not. </strong><hr></blockquote>

Okay let's just stop right here. You're ****ing joking right? Israel put "land for peace" on the table. Arafat just had to sign. It was good deal. He walked away from it. Israel was ready for it.

Contrast that with the attitude of the Palestinians. The maps the school children use doesn't have Israel on it. They teach Jewish hatred in their schools. Reading, writing and Jew hating.

So who's more ready for peace? If you say Palestine youre wrong.

[ 12-04-2001: Message edited by: Scott H. ]</p>

[quote]Originally posted by New:
<strong>
Good thing at least one american here that thinks bombs arn't the only way to practice foreign policy.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Another stupid statement in this tread. Yea. We're all "domb them all and let god sort it out" on this side.

[quote]Originally posted by Samantha Joanne Ollendale:
<strong>Does not the Israeli people have a right to exist in peace and security? Of course they do.
Does Palestine has a right to the same? apparently not.
</strong><hr></blockquote>

I think the Israeli's have more of a right than the Palestinians. At least the Israeli's made an effort to have peace (as already posted) but Arafat couldn't give two shits what happened. It's about time the Palestinians got what they diserved after all the things they've done in Israel.

[ 12-04-2001: Message edited by: EmAn ]</p>

[quote]I think the Israeli's have more of a right than the Palestinians.<hr></blockquote>

Are you talking about Israelis vs Palestinian people? Or Israeli vs Palestinian authorities and fighting units? There is a huge difference, by the way. Why do you feel the Israeli people deserve peace and security whereas the Palestinian people don't? Or have you been tarnished by the 30 year media association of Palestine and terrorism, largely because of Yasser Arafat and the PLO's violent activities, and thereby trashing an entire community, the vast majority of who are not terrorists, but just regular ordinary people wishing for a peaceful life?

[quote]At least the Israeli's made an effort to have peace (as already posted) but Arafat couldn't give two shits what happened<hr></blockquote>.

I agree with you there, in that Arafat has always had close connections with militants, and more resembles a terrorist than a legitimate civilian leader (in my view). The Palestinian people deserve far, far better than him. On the other hand, Israel is an occupying power, in defiance of various U.N. Resolutions, and they are still bulldozing Palestinian homes, villages and farms, and taking a confrontational approach; hardly the action of a peacemaker. And then there's the issue of Sharon's legitimacy. Sabra and Shatila seem to have been conveniently forgotten about.

[quote]It's about time the Palestinians got what they diserved after all the things they've done in Israel.<hr></blockquote>

That is so wildly shy of reality. It sounds like you are asssuming that, if you are a Palestinian person, then you are automatically a terrorist. By those standards, so are white males in their 20s with crewcuts.

[ 12-04-2001: Message edited by: Samantha Joanne Ollendale ]</p>

macoracle:
"Terrorism was never so bad until 6000 of "our own" died.

That has always been the way. You didn't come in to WWI until that was almost over. Not in to WWII until Japan attacked. Vietnam and Korea was to eradicate the world of the evil called Communism. Grenada was pretty much the same thing but smaller schaled and then there was the gulf war were Iraq was never mentioned until they threatened our oil supply.

All wars have always been for selfish reasons. The U.S is no better or worse in that than anyone else. The problem is that they make it out to be for a just cause to make it look that this war is a good one. That is what sickens me. No war is good.

I wonder what these "they kill us so we kill these idiots" have to say when the next plane hits a building. They'll probably start shouting that they were right after all. Woohoo! More killing!"
------------------------------------------------
hmmmm. hard to remember what Ireland was doing during WWI and WWII