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Apple's Snow Leopard rumored to be Gold Master - Page 6

post #201 of 235
8/12/09 at 4:41pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Logisticaldron View Post

Using the app Libertyforall suggested there is complete support for OpenGL 1.1-1.5 and 2.0-2.1. There is no test available for OpenGL 3.0 or 3.1, but under the OpenGL list for my machine it shows that I have support for 16 out of 25 (64%) features of 3.0 and 1 out of 7 (14%) features of 3.1.

Here is a partial report…

Renderer: NVIDIA GeForce 9400M OpenGL
Engine
Vendor: NVIDIA Corporation

Memory: 256 MB

Version: 2.1 NVIDIA-1.6.0

…
Core features
v1.1 (100 % - 7/7)

v1.2 (100 % - 8/8)

v1.3 (100 % - 9/9)

v1.4 (100 % - 15/15)

v1.5 (100 % - 3/3)

v2.0 (100 % - 10/10)

v2.1 (100 % - 3/3)

v3.0 (64 % - 16/25)

v3.1 (14 % - 1/7)


That's disappointing. That means that OpenGL support in Snow Leopard is really no better than Leopard. Leopard already had full OpenGL 2.1 support for all discrete GPUs in Intel Macs and partial OpenGL 3.0 support. nVidia has already released drivers for the 8000 series and up including the 9400M that has full support for OpenGL 3.1 in Windows and Linux. If I'm not mistaken, OpenGL 3.0 is important because it makes it easier to share data sets with OpenCL on a GPU so they can work nicely together. I'd imagine it'd be valuable for say fluid modeling applications where you want to crunch the data and visualize the flow (really OpenCL's bread and butter for the professional community) or for games with physics and graphics. It's interesting that Apple is pushing so hard for one but neglects the other.
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post #202 of 235
8/12/09 at 4:44pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ltcommander.data View Post

That's disappointing. That means that OpenGL support in Snow Leopard is really no better than Leopard. Leopard already had full OpenGL 2.1 support for all discrete GPUs in Intel Macs and partial OpenGL 3.0 support. nVidia has already released drivers for the 8000 series and up including the 9400M that has full support for OpenGL 3.1 in Windows and Linux. If I'm not mistaken, OpenGL 3.0 is important because it makes it easier to share data sets with OpenCL on a GPU so they can work nicely together. I'd imagine it'd be valuable for say fluid modeling applications where you want to crunch the data and visualize the flow (really OpenCL's bread and butter for the professional community) or for games with physics and graphics. It's interesting that Apple is pushing so hard for one but neglects the other.

Is there not a HW element that needs to be addressed, too. Are the 9400Ms capable of OpenGL 3.x?
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post #203 of 235
8/12/09 at 4:46pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dlux View Post

Man, so many people getting worked up over this, when the real-world difference for most people will be undetectable. I wonder if Apple sarcastically announced a 65-bit OS how many people would worry and fret that their particular laptop couldn't take advantage of that extra bit?

This reminds me of self-proclaimed 'audiophiles' arguing over how many oxygen-free strands are in their speaker cables...

Well I would kick some ass! That's what would happen! If I just bought a new system and it would not run a 65-bit OS I would be PPPPPIIIIIIIIIISSSSSSSSSSEEEEEEEDDDDDDDD!!!!!!

But hey- nice job on your opinion on what I should think is important.
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post #204 of 235
8/12/09 at 4:49pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Logisticaldron View Post

Is there not a HW element that needs to be addressed, too. Are the 9400M’s capable of OpenGL 3.x?

No, they only support 2.1

I just checked the link, you have to go to "features" as it defaults to "main".

http://www.nvidia.com/object/product...400m_g_us.html

Unless this only because Nvidia hasn't gotten around to do the drivers or firmware yet.
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post #205 of 235
8/12/09 at 4:58pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Logisticaldron View Post

Is there not a HW element that needs to be addressed, too. Are the 9400M’s capable of OpenGL 3.x?

http://developer.nvidia.com/object/opengl_3_driver.html

Quote:
The new features in OpenGL 3.0, OpenGL 3.1 and OpenGL 3.2 require G80, or newer hardware. Thus OpenGL 3.0/3.1/3.2 is not supported on NV3x, NV4x nor G7x hardware. This means you need one of the following NVIDIA graphics accelerators to use OpenGL 3.0/3.1/3.2:
Desktop

Quadro FX 370, 570, 1700, 3700, 4600, 4700x2, 4800, 5600, 5800, Quadro VX200, Quadro CX
GeForce 8000 series or higher; Geforce G100, GT120, 130, 220, GTS 150, Geforce GTS 250, GeForce GTX 260, 280, 285 and 295, any ION based products.
Notebook

Quadro FX 360M, 370M, 570M, 770M, 1600M, 1700M, 2700M, 3600M, 3700M
GeForce 8000 series or higher

All nVidia GPUs from the 8000 series and up support the just announced OpenGL 3.2 spec and beta drivers are available. OpenGL 3.2 is inclusive of OpenGL 3.1 and older. OpenGL 3.1 drivers themselves are out of beta, shipping and supported on Windows (latest WHQL release) and Linux.

Likewise ATI has already released drivers supporting OpenGL 3.0 on all GPUs from the HD2000 series and up. OpenGL 3.1 drivers are supposed to be released this month and OpenGL 3.2 drivers were promised when the spec was announced.

So again, just like 64-bit support for all Core 2 Duos, it really isn't a hardware issue, it seems like it's just Apple not writing drivers. \

Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

No, they only support 2.1

http://www.nvidia.com/object/product...400m_g_us.html

Unless this only because Nvidia hasn't gotten around to do the drivers of firmware yet.

OpenGL 2.1 was only supported at launch. I don't believe nVidia bothers updating their product pages and other marketing materials for support added after the fact.
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post #206 of 235
8/12/09 at 8:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

What I did say is that there is no technical reason why Apple couldn't support 32 bit for one more upgrade beyond 10.6. I gave reasons why it was to difficult to do so before, as he was using examples from the past to support his contention.

Huh? I speculated that Apple might stop including 32-bit kernels with 10.8, not 10.7. It's clear that 10.6.0 will (with the exception of Xserve) boot 32-bit kernels by default and 64-bit kernels optionally on capable hardware to the extent that the drivers are ready. Driver support will be added for all Macs with 64-bit EFI during 10.6.x development. 64-bit kernels might become the boot default during 10.6.x development, but I doubt it. Not later than 10.7.0, 64-bit kernels will become the boot default for capable Macs i.e. those with 64-bit EFI. 32-bit kernels will still be included in 10.7.x releases and will be available as a boot option and as the default for Macs with 32-bit EFI. I speculate that 10.8 might not include 32-bit kernels and therefore might not run on Macs with 32-bit EFI. This is consistent with Apple general policy and is a sound strategy from both a technical and business perspective. Apple might do something else. There are other possible strategies, but I would bet on this one. However, dropping 32-bit kernels from 10.7 seems far-fetched.
Mac user since August 1983.
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post #207 of 235
8/12/09 at 8:27pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ltcommander.data View Post


Likewise ATI has already released drivers supporting OpenGL 3.0 on all GPUs from the HD2000 series and up. OpenGL 3.1 drivers are supposed to be released this month and OpenGL 3.2 drivers were promised when the spec was announced.

So again, just like 64-bit support for all Core 2 Duos, it really isn't a hardware issue, it seems like it's just Apple not writing drivers. \

Note that the SL specs does not list the ATI HD 2600 graphic card for OpenCL. I have that card in my iMac 7,1. I'm aware that OpenCL is quite a bit in the future because developers have to spend time and resources to implement it in their applications.

It is probably not good business sense to write new drivers or to update drivers to enable existing potential hardware function for hardware that has already been sold to customers. That goes beyond basic support. Apparently, that is reflected in the Core 2 Duo situation as well.

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post #208 of 235
8/12/09 at 8:56pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcarling View Post

Huh? I speculated that Apple might stop including 32-bit kernels with 10.8, not 10.7. It's clear that 10.6.0 will (with the exception of Xserve) boot 32-bit kernels by default and 64-bit kernels optionally on capable hardware to the extent that the drivers are ready.

I don't know if your assumptions are correct. The newest PPC machines are about 3 years old now, and Apple is already dropping support for them for Snow Leopard. I see no reason to assume that Apple would still definitely support 32-bit kernels for 10.7.
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post #209 of 235
8/12/09 at 9:21pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BertP View Post

Note that the SL specs does not list the ATI HD 2600 graphic card for OpenCL. I have that card in my iMac 7,1. I'm aware that OpenCL is quite a bit in the future because developers have to spend time and resources to implement it in their applications.

It is probably not good business sense to write new drivers or to update drivers to enable existing potential hardware function for hardware that has already been sold to customers. That goes beyond basic support. Apparently, that is reflected in the Core 2 Duo situation as well.

In the OpenCL case, from informal conversations with ATI's Stream Computing team, lack of HD2000 and HD3000 series support is a hardware limitation. I've been told they don't look to be supported in Windows or Linux either when OpenCL drivers are released.

In the case of OpenGL 3.0, drivers supporting the HD2000 series and up are already available for Windows and Linux so the hardware is fine.
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post #210 of 235
8/12/09 at 9:24pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ltcommander.data View Post

In the OpenCL case, from informal conversations with ATI's Stream Computing team, lack of HD2000 and HD3000 series support is a hardware limitation. I've been told they don't look to be supported in Windows or Linux either when OpenCL drivers are released.

In the case of OpenGL 3.0, drivers supporting the HD2000 series and up are already available for Windows and Linux so the hardware is fine.

OK. I wasn't aware of that.

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post #211 of 235
8/12/09 at 10:37pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcarling View Post

Huh? I speculated that Apple might stop including 32-bit kernels with 10.8, not 10.7. It's clear that 10.6.0 will (with the exception of Xserve) boot 32-bit kernels by default and 64-bit kernels optionally on capable hardware to the extent that the drivers are ready. Driver support will be added for all Macs with 64-bit EFI during 10.6.x development. 64-bit kernels might become the boot default during 10.6.x development, but I doubt it. Not later than 10.7.0, 64-bit kernels will become the boot default for capable Macs i.e. those with 64-bit EFI. 32-bit kernels will still be included in 10.7.x releases and will be available as a boot option and as the default for Macs with 32-bit EFI. I speculate that 10.8 might not include 32-bit kernels and therefore might not run on Macs with 32-bit EFI. This is consistent with Apple general policy and is a sound strategy from both a technical and business perspective. Apple might do something else. There are other possible strategies, but I would bet on this one. However, dropping 32-bit kernels from 10.7 seems far-fetched.

Oops! Sorry, my bad. We were talking about 10.7 so much before, I missed the 10.8 further down in your post, and made the mistake of thinking you were saying it for 10.7.

Actually we agree here.

Sorry again.
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post #212 of 235
8/12/09 at 10:45pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

I don't know if your assumptions are correct. The newest PPC machines are about 3 years old now, and Apple is already dropping support for them for Snow Leopard. I see no reason to assume that Apple would still definitely support 32-bit kernels for 10.7.

Really? Which was the last PPC Mac? When did Apple replace it? I bought the last speed-bump of the 12" PowerBook in February 2005. I vaguely seem to recall that was one of the last PPC Macs, though probably not quite the last. Were Apple still selling new (I don't be refurbished) PPC Macs after MWSF 2006?
Mac user since August 1983.
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post #213 of 235
8/13/09 at 4:35am
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcarling View Post

Really? Which was the last PPC Mac? When did Apple replace it? I bought the last speed-bump of the 12" PowerBook in February 2005. I vaguely seem to recall that was one of the last PPC Macs, though probably not quite the last. Were Apple still selling new (I don't be refurbished) PPC Macs after MWSF 2006?

I believe the last model to switch to Intel was the Power Mac since Apple wanted to wait until Intel had dual processor 64-bit capable processors available so it skipped Yonah Core Duos and avoided the Pentium 4/D. The Mac Pro wasn't introduced until WWDC 2006 or mid-2006. So the youngest PowerPC computer bought through normal channels just turned 3 years old.
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post #214 of 235
8/13/09 at 9:44pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcarling View Post

Really? Which was the last PPC Mac? When did Apple replace it? I bought the last speed-bump of the 12" PowerBook in February 2005. I vaguely seem to recall that was one of the last PPC Macs, though probably not quite the last. Were Apple still selling new (I don't be refurbished) PPC Macs after MWSF 2006?

The last 15" Powerbook series was discontinued in February 2006.

The last 20" iMac in March 2006.

The last 17" Powerbook in April 2006.

The last iBook in May 2006.

The last Power Mac G5 in August 2006.

I hope this ends this question.
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post #215 of 235
8/15/09 at 4:19pm
So if I have a Mac Pro, and the kernel is 32-bit, will an individual app be able to access more than 4 GBs of ram? like say 14 or even 30 or so GBs if I have it? I'd really like to know about this, thanks...

Laters...
Adobe Systems - "Preventing the Case-Sensitive revolution everyday..."
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post #216 of 235
8/15/09 at 9:21pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by rezwits View Post

So if I have a Mac Pro, and the kernel is 32-bit, will an individual app be able to access more than 4 GBs of ram? like say 14 or even 30 or so GBs if I have it? I'd really like to know about this, thanks...

Laters...

Not an individual app. But if you have more RAM, instead of going out to the disk to swap virtual memory, it would use RAM, speeding things up.
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post #217 of 235
8/15/09 at 11:41pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by plovell View Post

No - the text on that page does say that it must be within 90 days of purchase. The main headline doesn't, but the finer print half-way down does say "This program ends December 26, 2009. Your completed order form must be postmarked or faxed within 90 days of the date of your purchase of a qualifying computer or Xserve (described in this offer) or by December 26, 2009, whichever is earlier."

I bought a MacBook Pro just after June 8th, so I have only 90 days after that date to order the upgrade.

Please reread my response and your original post.
You wrote, "then Snow Leopard must be released by September 6th."
It does not have to be released by then.
It does have to be ordered by then if you purchased a computer on June 8th. You can order it now.
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post #218 of 235
8/17/09 at 7:09am
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Your definition of "stealing" is self serving, and you know it. Your lack of understanding of what constitutes a product is amazing.

He needs to tell the music recording industry (RIAA) and the motion picture industry (MPAA) to stop worrying about copyright infringement since it is "OK to copy".

Guess that means all the patents are free too and any intellectual property can be used without paying those pesky licensing fees.

Glad to know that. So I can start copying my $20 bills?

A small percentage of the population fails to understand the rules of a civil society. We will always have cheats and thieves, unfortunately.
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post #219 of 235
8/21/09 at 5:26pm
Dunno why you guys haven't seen these yet but they are on the macrumours site just passing it along.

The link was mailed to me with a message saying " 10.6 will be pushed back to september instead of being released on august 28th"

http://rapidshare.com/files/270018507/Archive.zip.html
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post #220 of 235
8/21/09 at 5:35pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by matt3224 View Post

Dunno why you guys haven't seen these yet but they are on the macrumours site just passing it along.

The link was mailed to me with a message saying " 10.6 will be pushed back to september instead of being released on august 28th"

http://rapidshare.com/files/270018507/Archive.zip.html

It's not being "pushed back" because September is when Apple said it would be released. They NEVER said it would be released in August.

This is just supposition.
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post #221 of 235
8/21/09 at 7:15pm
This will be my first Mac, so I'm curious about the online Apple Store. When I make my purchase (the day SL is released and comes on my new Mac), how long will it typically take the online store to ship my Mac to me? Is the online store typically slow immediately after a new release, or will it reach me in a relatively quick amount of time?

I asked this question previously in another thread, but the only one who answered me replied with the physical store, rather then the online store.
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post #222 of 235
8/21/09 at 7:27pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

It's not being "pushed back" because September is when Apple said it would be released. They NEVER said it would be released in August.

This is just supposition.

No it's not. They wrote it on their websites throughout the world.

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post #223 of 235
8/21/09 at 7:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Methos View Post

This will be my first Mac, so I'm curious about the online Apple Store. When I make my purchase (the day SL is released and comes on my new Mac), how long will it typically take the online store to ship my Mac to me? Is the online store typically slow immediately after a new release, or will it reach me in a relatively quick amount of time?

I asked this question previously in another thread, but the only one who answered me replied with the physical store, rather then the online store.

Typically not. Delays tend to happen with new Mac launches not with the OS and sometimes with the holiday season. Note that you will be able to get the Snow Leopard upgrade for free if you buy your Mac within two weeks of the OS release. You could also just spend the $10 if it's past the first week of September and just get a Mac now, though you may also Wang to wait until the new Macs get released since we are well into the HW cycle.
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post #224 of 235
8/21/09 at 10:14pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ireland View Post

No it's not. They wrote it on their websites throughout the world.

It was an error, remember? They never officially announced it. Until they do, it doesn't count. The official date is still September.
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post #225 of 235
8/21/09 at 10:24pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

It was an error, remember? They never officially announced it. Until they do, it doesn't count. The official date is still September.

I'm going to agree with melgross on this one. It was either an error, a leak, or a test of the system. Until there is a press release, I don't think it counts as "being pushed back".
20" Aluminum iMac (August 2007) - Snow Leopard 10.6.4
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20" Aluminum iMac (August 2007) - Snow Leopard 10.6.4
13" MacBook Pro (2.53 Ghz) - Snow Leopard 10.6.4
64 GB iPad Wifi
32 GB iPhone 3GS
8 GB iPhone (Original)
2 iPod Minis (Blue, 4GB)
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post #226 of 235
8/21/09 at 10:43pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by iPhone91 View Post

I'm going to agree with melgross on this one. It was either an error, a leak, or a test of the system. Until there is a press release, I don't think it counts as "being pushed back".

Right. Pushed back was when 10.5 was pushed back by a few months because of the iPhone. Apple made an announcement about that.

This was an "Oops! We didn't mean to do that".
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post #227 of 235
8/22/09 at 5:26am
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

It was an error, remember? They never officially announced it. Until they do, it doesn't count. The official date is still September.

An error lol, I'm not buying it. I've never made an error like that on one of my sites, I'm going to say Apple wouldn't either. They probably changed their mind. You don't just throw up a random date by accident.

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post #228 of 235
8/22/09 at 12:23pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ireland View Post

An error lol, I'm not buying it. I've never made an error like that on one of my sites, I'm going to say Apple wouldn't either. They probably changed their mind. You don't just throw up a random date by accident.

Of course they do. You may have your sites, but nothing you do is even a fraction of one percent as complex as what Apple does, nor do you have a measurable number of employees working on them who might make a mistake.

What we're talking about here, is not whether Apple MIGHT decide to release the OS early, but whether they've made an announcement to that effect, and then said that they decided not to.

That never happened.

Officially, September remains the release month. If they release it Friday, then they will be releasing it earlier than the announced release date.
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post #229 of 235
8/22/09 at 1:56pm
Not that it's THAT big a deal... Aug 28th... September 28th... WHATEVER!

But I did happen to speak to Apple Customer Service, cuz I just bought a 17" MBP and was inquiring about whether or not I would be getting a FREE 10.6 upgrade., She said yes (but $9.95 shipping) and that there SHOULD be a 'recent purchase' link on the AppleStore when it's released on September 8th.

Just an FYI.
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post #230 of 235
8/22/09 at 1:56pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Of course they do. You may have your sites, but nothing you do is even a fraction of one percent as complex as what Apple does, nor do you have a measurable number of employees working on them who might make a mistake.

Still not buying it. They are creatine buzz and it's working. Of course we're both guessing, but that's my bet.

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post #231 of 235
8/22/09 at 1:57pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by THX 1138 View Post

Not that it's THAT big a deal... Aug 28th... September 28th... WHATEVER!

Exactly, anyway I'm running it now. Final build is 10A432. 10A435 is likely a prank.

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post #232 of 235
8/22/09 at 2:52pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Logisticaldron View Post

Typically not. Delays tend to happen with new Mac launches not with the OS and sometimes with the holiday season. Note that you will be able to get the Snow Leopard upgrade for free if you buy your Mac within two weeks of the OS release. You could also just spend the $10 if it's past the first week of September and just get a Mac now, though you may also Wang to wait until the new Macs get released since we are well into the HW cycle.

I'm seriously considering buying the Mac now and just upgrading, but I hate to buy it if SL is going to be released in one week. Granted, had I bought it last week on Monday (when I applied for the 0%), I'd probably have it by now. \
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post #233 of 235
8/22/09 at 9:03pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ireland View Post

Still not buying it. They are creatine buzz and it's working. Of course we're both guessing, but that's my bet.

I'm going to wait a few days anyway.

What's annoying is that now Amazon is charging NYS taxes on their sales, as well as shipping.

Also, Newegg seems to have dropped out as an Apple dealer. You can't find anything on their site by using the word "Apple".
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post #234 of 235
8/22/09 at 9:08pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

I'm going to wait a few days anyway.

What's annoying is that now Amazon is charging NYS taxes on their sales, as well as shipping.

Also, Newegg seems to have dropped out as an Apple dealer. You can't find anything on their site by using the word "Apple".

You're right. It must be a very recent change, I seem to recall an Apple drop down menu only a month ago.
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post #235 of 235
8/22/09 at 10:28pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

You're right. It must be a very recent change, I seem to recall an Apple drop down menu only a month ago.

Last time I looked a few weeks ago it was there.

I wonder why? It's disappointing, and I hope, not some problem.

But with Apple becoming more popular, why would this happen?
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