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Test your HealthCare IQ!

Poll Results: Which is the following is FALSE?

This is a multiple choice poll
  • 13% (6)
    The Veteran hospital (VA) is government-run and the best care in the USA
  • 8% (4)
    Canadians love their government-run healthcare system
  • 11% (5)
    Basic healthcare is a recognized right for citizens in most developed countries
  • 13% (6)
    The Obama proposed reform will not add to the overall deficit
  • 11% (5)
    The Obama proposed plan puts evidence-based medicine ahead of financial incentives for doctors
  • 4% (2)
    Many GOP and Blue Dog Dems have been bought by health insurance and big pharma
  • 6% (3)
    The inclusion of professional assistance for counseling terminally ill is humane and necesary
  • 13% (6)
    Disruption of town-hall meetings was orchestrated by health insurance companies and big pharma
  • 6% (3)
    Special interest (insurance and big pharma) spends $1.2 million + a DAY to defeat healthcare reform
  • 11% (5)
    The GOP is going everything in their power to block legislation and thwart 70% of the population
45 Total Votes  
post #1 of 140
Thread Starter 
Please pick which of the following options is FALSE. Multiple options allowed.
post #2 of 140
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tauron View Post

Please pick which of the following options is FALSE. Multiple options allowed.

Your ability to create a poll thread fails.

One usually has .. you know.. voting and options and stuff.

Unless, of course, someone thinking they have any kind of options is false, in which case I dub thee sir conservative!

Rise, go forth and vote Republican!
post #3 of 140
I choose "Cake"!

Proud AAPL stock owner.

 

GOA

Reply

Proud AAPL stock owner.

 

GOA

Reply
post #4 of 140
Please report any snarky remarks about this poll to flag@whitehouse.gov

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #5 of 140
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post

I choose "Cake"!

As in "Let them eat cake"?
post #6 of 140
Thread Starter 
The poll has been posted.
post #7 of 140
Beer.
eye
bee
BEE
Reply
eye
bee
BEE
Reply
post #8 of 140
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Please report any snarky remarks about this poll to flag@whitehouse.gov

post #9 of 140
Thread Starter 
As most intelligent people here know by now, if you clicked on any of the choices you failed your IQ test.
post #10 of 140
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tauron View Post

As most intelligent people here know by now, if you clicked on any of the choices you failed your IQ test.

Uh huh. Sheesh.
post #11 of 140
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tauron View Post

As most intelligent people here know by now, if you clicked on any of the choices you failed your IQ test.

Wrong!

Intelligent people didn't bother to take your "IQ test" at all.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #12 of 140
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tauron View Post

As most intelligent people here know by now, if you clicked on any of the choices you failed your IQ test.

Not only that, you have exposed yourself as a complete retard and are hereby entered into the special olympics.
post #13 of 140
Quote:
Originally Posted by jamac View Post

Not only that, you have exposed yourself as a complete retard and are hereby entered into the special olympics.

What an extremely rude and offensive thing to say. Although I suppose it does illustrate the attitude of Obama and his supporters towards the disabled. Anyone remember Obama's Special Olympics "joke" on Leno?

Oh wait, the teleprompter made him do it.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #14 of 140
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

What an extremely rude and offensive thing to say. Although I suppose it does illustrate the attitude of Obama and his supporters towards the disabled. Anyone remember Obama's Special Olympics "joke" on Leno?

Oh wait, the teleprompter made him do it.

says the retard.
post #15 of 140
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Wrong!

Intelligent people didn't bother to take your "IQ test" at all.

That is correct. Because intelligent people realized that all they had to do is not click anything. Yet, as I suspected, a bunch of people marked down several of the choices not realizing that they are all FACTUALLY correct.
post #16 of 140
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tauron View Post

That is correct. Because intelligent people realized that all they had to do is not click anything. Yet, as I suspected, a bunch of people marked down several of the choices not realizing that they are all FACTUALLY correct.

No, they are not all factually correct.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #17 of 140
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

No, they are not all factually correct.

Yes they are and I challenge you to prove otherwise.
post #18 of 140
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tauron View Post

Yes they are and I challenge you to prove otherwise.

No, they are not all true. And I decline. You didn't provide proof, so why should I have to?

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #19 of 140
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tauron View Post

Yes they are and I challenge you to prove otherwise.

The burden of proof in logical arguments falls to the one making the positive assertion.
post #20 of 140
We have evidence that at least one of those is false:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3EPd2i4Jshs
post #21 of 140
Quote:
Disruption of town-hall meetings was orchestrated by health insurance companies and big pharma

I am sure there were only corporate sponsored interruption and no other people with their own agendas or ideas involved. Right?
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
post #22 of 140
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tauron View Post

That is correct. Because intelligent people realized that all they had to do is not click anything. Yet, as I suspected, a bunch of people marked down several of the choices not realizing that they are all FACTUALLY correct.

That's ridiculous, on what criteria do you base the assertion that the VA hospital provides the best care in the US?
post #23 of 140
My father receives care through the VA. It is NOT the best care. But it is good for what it is. For what he pays (nothing but his time in the military), it is good. The best in the country? Not really.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
post #24 of 140
http://www.time.com/time/politics/ar...s-politics-cnn

Quote:
Emanuel is now chief of staff in a White House that badly needs the drug industry as an ally in its drive to overhaul the health-care system. And the industry has indeed come through in a big way: in June, at a moment when the Congressional Budget Office was estimating that early versions of two Senate health bills were turning out to be more expensive than expected and would fail to curb rising health-care costs, the industry offered to take an $80 billion hit. Since then, drug companies have been pitching in to mobilize public support for President Obama's drive to reform health care, including collaborating with their onetime adversary, the health-reform-advocacy organization Families USA, to bring back "Harry and Louise," the fictitious couple whose ad campaign did so much to kill a health-care overhaul when the Clintons tried it in 1994. This time, Harry and Louise are arguing in favor of reform.

Sounds good so far...perhaps too good.
Quote:
But the drug industry has also gotten something in return for its support. As reported Thursday, Aug. 6, in the New York Times, the White House agreed privately not to push for anything beyond the $80 billion in savings that the industry promised over the next 10 years. "The President encouraged this approach," deputy chief of staff Jim Messina told the Times. He wanted to bring all the parties to the table to discuss health-insurance reform."

Deals being cut - politics as usual in Washington.
Quote:
The White House also agreed, sources say, not to get behind a provision in the House bill that would eliminate a good deal the industry got from another provision in the Medicare prescription-drug program. The law shifted 6 million eligible beneficiaries from Medicaid — which pays lower prices for drugs — to the Medicare drug plan.

Yup, politics as usual.

The drug companies are behind the plan, so that pretty much knocks that item off the poll.
post #25 of 140
Interesting. Not surprising at all of course. Most industry takeovers tend to be secretly supported by the incumbents in those industries as a way to cement their position, lock in long term government protection, force customers to buy their products and services, etc. Nothing surprising here.

So let's examine that list (that no intelligent person would have check an item on):

1. The Veteran hospital (VA) is government-run and the best care in the USA

2. Canadians love their government-run healthcare system

3. Basic healthcare is a recognized right for citizens in most developed countries

4. The Obama proposed reform will not add to the overall deficit

5. The Obama proposed plan puts evidence-based medicine ahead of financial incentives for doctors

6. Many GOP and Blue Dog Dems have been bought by health insurance and big pharma

7. The inclusion of professional assistance for counseling terminally ill is humane and necesary

8. Disruption of town-hall meetings was orchestrated by health insurance companies and big pharma

9. Special interest (insurance and big pharma) spends $1.2 million + a DAY to defeat healthcare reform

10. The GOP is going everything in their power to block legislation and thwart 70% of the population


So far we have some suggestions that 1, 2, 6, 8 and 9 are not true or at least not completely true.

Additionally, 4 and 5 are predications of the future based on promises from politicians. I think we can say these are not facts that can be determined a priori to be true or false. They are guess and wishes at this point.

Number 3 might be true, but irrelevant to the debate.

Number 7 is an opinion so not really subject to an objective true/false claim.

Number 10 contains a premise that is questionable (that 70% of the population wants or supports the plans currently being proposed). It also contains the unspoken premise that all of the GOP is doing "everything in their power to block legislation". I don't know that anyone here has enough information to determine the truth or falseness of that claim.*

*I'm not defending anything the GOP does, I merely pointing out the fallacies in the claim.
post #26 of 140
Actually, I'm pretty sure they are ALL false.

1. The Veteran hospital (VA) is government-run and the best care in the USA: Talk to people that go there. Not only is it not the best, it may be the worst.

2. Canadians love their government-run healthcare system: You'd have to provide some evidence. Surely not ALL of them do or don't. I've heard many stories good and bad. And what works for Canada may not work here.

3. Basic healthcare is a recognized right for citizens in most developed countries: This one has many problems. First, what does "basic" mean? What does "recognized right" mean? Does it mean free? And does lack of insurance prevent one from getting basic care? Of course not. The fact is we should not be trying to solve the "healthcare" problem, we should be trying to solve the "insurance" problem. The "healthcare" system is not the issue. That's why people from all those "developed countries" come here for procedures.

4. The Obama proposed reform will not add to the overall deficit: Now that's just laughable. It's going to cost at least a trillion dollars. So, either it adds to it or he raises taxes in the extreme. Take your pick.

5. The Obama proposed plan puts evidence-based medicine ahead of financial incentives for doctors: This is dumb. Obama has insulted doctors ad nauseam during this process, claiming they'd rather cut off a foot than provide dietary advice to patients. I've seen no evidence of this, not to mention it would violate their hippocratic oaths.

6. Many GOP and Blue Dog Dems have been bought by health insurance and big pharma: That's a little convenient, no? Care to say which ones? Care to provide proof?

7. The inclusion of professional assistance for counseling terminally ill is humane and necesary: Read the proposal in the house. It's simply not that cut and dried. While the intention may not be to have the government denying granny a hip replacement, that's what's likely to happen under a bill that's stated purpose includes reducing cost.

8. Disruption of town-hall meetings was orchestrated by health insurance companies and big pharma: Prove it. Prove it, prove it, prove it.

9. Special interest (insurance and big pharma) spends $1.2 million + a DAY to defeat healthcare reform: I see no link, but it's probably true. But hey...I'm sure there is nothing on the other side, right?

10. The GOP is going everything in their power to block legislation and thwart 70% of the population: That's just dumb. Not only to most Americans hate the current proposal, but in general they only narrowly want a government option:

http://www.gallup.com/poll/102931/in...re-reform.aspx

Here's on specific to Obama's handling of the issue:

http://www.gallup.com/poll/122255/Am...re-Steady.aspx


There are some polls that were taken months ago showing something like the number you quoted. But they've changed. Really, I don't see why you need to just make crap up.
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
Reply
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
Reply
post #27 of 140
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taskiss View Post

The burden of proof in logical arguments falls to the one making the positive assertion.

No it doesn't.
post #28 of 140
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tauron View Post

No it doesn't.

Yes, it does.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burden_of_proof
post #29 of 140
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by involuntary_serf View Post

We have evidence that at least one of those is false:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3EPd2i4Jshs

You have a showing of hands of 7 people published by the right wing media website. Forgive me if I think this is not even evidence much less proof.

This: http://www.ourfuture.org/node/21313

is much better information.
post #30 of 140
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

I am sure there were only corporate sponsored interruption and no other people with their own agendas or ideas involved. Right?

Other people with their own agendas that had no understanding of the issue and were scared off by the right-wing propaganda into action. Proof? The proof is that they have no understanding of the issues, just like YOU have no or little understanding. Because if they had an understanding and an argument we would have heard it before.

What we have here is part of the country is concerned and looking for an alternative to a broken system, and part of the country act by impulse and fear, and has zero understanding (fear comes from a lack of understanding).

Have YOU attempted to learn about this issue?? Because, you know, I don't know about you but I don't want to be paying $15K a years to make doctors and insurance CEOs rich.
post #31 of 140
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by AsLan^ View Post

That's ridiculous, on what criteria do you base the assertion that the VA hospital provides the best care in the US?

http://books.google.com/books?id=Pe9...20care&f=false
post #32 of 140
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tauron View Post

You have a showing of hands of 7 people published by the right wing media website. Forgive me if I think this is not even evidence much less proof.

So you are claiming that Paul Krugman is a liar?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Tauron View Post

This: http://www.ourfuture.org/node/21313

is much better information.

Priceless. Denounce a video event documenting at least a handful who dislike the system because it is "published by the right wing media website" and then point to a "progressive" (aka left-wing) website as "much better information". The irony and hypocrisy is priceless.

Does the article you linked to even provide evidence for your claim that all Canadians love their health care system?
post #33 of 140
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

My father receives care through the VA. It is NOT the best care. But it is good for what it is. For what he pays (nothing but his time in the military), it is good. The best in the country? Not really.

Please see my post above.
post #34 of 140
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tauron View Post

What we have here is part of the country is concerned and looking for an alternative to a broken system, and part of the country act by impulse and fear, and has zero understanding (fear comes from a lack of understanding).

What we really have here is a small percentage of people who want to ram their personal desires for control through into law without considering the failures that the government has brought to the health care and health insurance markets already and who do not fully understand or realize the consequences that will come from this (and inevitable subsequent) programs.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Tauron View Post

Because, you know, I don't know about you but I don't want to be paying $15K a years to make doctors and insurance CEOs rich.

See, I don't care if doctors and insurance CEOs get rich. All I care is that I get the health care I need or want, have the choices I desire and prices I can afford. People getting rich in that process doesn't matter one bit to me. If they can do all of that and get rich, more power to them. If, however, they are getting rich due to government limitations on competition...that's a different story altogether.
post #35 of 140
Quote:

And here's one review of that book:

http://www.amazon.com/review/R3QY2U4...cm_cr_rdp_perm
post #36 of 140
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

Actually, I'm pretty sure they are ALL false.

1. The Veteran hospital (VA) is government-run and the best care in the USA: Talk to people that go there. Not only is it not the best, it may be the worst.

2. Canadians love their government-run healthcare system: You'd have to provide some evidence. Surely not ALL of them do or don't. I've heard many stories good and bad. And what works for Canada may not work here.

3. Basic healthcare is a recognized right for citizens in most developed countries: This one has many problems. First, what does "basic" mean? What does "recognized right" mean? Does it mean free? And does lack of insurance prevent one from getting basic care? Of course not. The fact is we should not be trying to solve the "healthcare" problem, we should be trying to solve the "insurance" problem. The "healthcare" system is not the issue. That's why people from all those "developed countries" come here for procedures.

4. The Obama proposed reform will not add to the overall deficit: Now that's just laughable. It's going to cost at least a trillion dollars. So, either it adds to it or he raises taxes in the extreme. Take your pick.

5. The Obama proposed plan puts evidence-based medicine ahead of financial incentives for doctors: This is dumb. Obama has insulted doctors ad nauseam during this process, claiming they'd rather cut off a foot than provide dietary advice to patients. I've seen no evidence of this, not to mention it would violate their hippocratic oaths.

6. Many GOP and Blue Dog Dems have been bought by health insurance and big pharma: That's a little convenient, no? Care to say which ones? Care to provide proof?

7. The inclusion of professional assistance for counseling terminally ill is humane and necesary: Read the proposal in the house. It's simply not that cut and dried. While the intention may not be to have the government denying granny a hip replacement, that's what's likely to happen under a bill that's stated purpose includes reducing cost.

8. Disruption of town-hall meetings was orchestrated by health insurance companies and big pharma: Prove it. Prove it, prove it, prove it.

9. Special interest (insurance and big pharma) spends $1.2 million + a DAY to defeat healthcare reform: I see no link, but it's probably true. But hey...I'm sure there is nothing on the other side, right?

10. The GOP is going everything in their power to block legislation and thwart 70% of the population: That's just dumb. Not only to most Americans hate the current proposal, but in general they only narrowly want a government option:

http://www.gallup.com/poll/102931/in...re-reform.aspx

Here's on specific to Obama's handling of the issue:

http://www.gallup.com/poll/122255/Am...re-Steady.aspx


There are some polls that were taken months ago showing something like the number you quoted. But they've changed. Really, I don't see why you need to just make crap up.

1. The VA is better than the health care of you or I get. See my post above.
2. Nothing in life is perfect and the Canadian system is also not perfect, but it is also not broken. In fact it works very well and Canadians love it. Go read about it and you will see.
3. Universal Declaration of Human Rights:
Quote:
(1) Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control.

Mkay?
4. This assertion is extremely true and the fact that you don't get it is extremely laughable. The point here is not that healthcare reform will be free. Of course it won't be free. But the cost for the country if we continue doing nothing about healthcare will be much greater. So yes, in fact, healthcare reform has the potential to save us a ton of money in the long run.
5. Current healthcare emphasizes remedies and underemphasizes prevention. This is the conclusion of many clinical studies. For proof go to NIH (National institutes of health) and look at their current research focus: you will see the word "prevention" and "lifestyle improvement" and "care cost reduction" over and over.
6. See here for an extensive list of officials bought and paid for insurance companies and other large corporations: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cRS8TKD2lB4
7. What you are saying is just a regurgitation of the right wing propaganda. Have you tried to find out what it actually says? No, I didn't think so.
8. http://thinkprogress.org/wp-content/...actionmemo.pdf
9. The number is actually higher than 1.2 million a DAY: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...l?hpid=topnews
10.See my other post. The 70% number is about right.
post #37 of 140
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/art...?artid=1242781

Comparison of postoperative mortality in VA and private hospitals.

J F Stremple, D S Bross, C L Davis, and G O McDonald
Department of Veterans Affairs Medical Center, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania.


Quote:
The authors found no significant differences in postoperative mortality rates between the VA and private hospital systems for 105 of the 113 surgical procedures or procedure groups. VA postoperative mortality rates that were higher than those in private hospitals were found for suture of ulcer, revision of gastric anastomosis, small-to-small intestinal anastomosis, appendectomy, and reclosure of postoperative disruption of abdominal wall (p = 0.05). Vascular bypass surgery, portal systemic venous shunt, and esophageal surgery showed a significantly lower postoperative mortality in the VA as compared with that in private hospitals (p = 0.05). CONCLUSIONS: VA postoperative mortality in 113 surgical procedures or procedure groups is comparable to that in private hospitals.

The VA itself says that there is comparable postoperative mortality rates.

Therefore, it's neither better nor worse, according to the VA itself, as of 1993.

This analysis was independently substantiated in 2003 (study of admissions in 1994 to 1995), with a caveat - the length of stay at a VA hospital was substantially longer, on average (12.7 vs 7.0 days).
http://www.springerlink.com/content/06l18n4j1n6xw102/

Every article I read has similar conclusions.

So, no, the VA isn't the best health care, it's equal to private health care.
post #38 of 140
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taskiss View Post

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/art...?artid=1242781

Comparison of postoperative mortality in VA and private hospitals.

J F Stremple, D S Bross, C L Davis, and G O McDonald
Department of Veterans Affairs Medical Center, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania.


The VA itself says that there is comparable postoperative mortality rates.

Therefore, it's neither better nor worse, according to the VA itself, as of 1993.

This analysis was independently substantiated in 2003 (study of admissions in 1994 to 1995), with a caveat - the length of stay at a VA hospital was substantially longer, on average (12.7 vs 7.0 days).
http://www.springerlink.com/content/06l18n4j1n6xw102/

Every article I read has similar conclusions.

So, no, the VA isn't the best health care, it's equal to private health care.

So you have one study that provides evidence that their surgery is not any better than regular health care. Sorry, but surgery is only one factor in a very large equation that equates to "quality of healthcare". Your conclusion is flawed.
post #39 of 140
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tauron View Post

So you have one study that provides evidence that their surgery is not any better than regular health care. Sorry, but surgery is only one factor in a very large equation that equates to "quality of healthcare". Your conclusion is flawed.

OK, what other factors are there? Is there a better criteria for rating health care than mortality rates?

I posted supporting evidence, the ball's in your court. Support your assertions and we'll see just how your conclusions compare.

You make a lot of claims and don't provide a lot of evidence. Where I come from they have a name for that kind of behavior.

edit: your evidence for #8 ... isn't. It's just a pamphlet put out by folks against the health care proposals.
post #40 of 140
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taskiss View Post

OK, what other factors are there? Is there a better criteria for rating health care than mortality rates?

Yes and your are not touching even 5% of the healthcare equation.

Surgery is just one aspect. You have also all the clinical disciplines such as cardiology, orthopedics, endocrinology, nephrology, psychology, oncology, gastroenterology, etc, etc. Any one of those has a DIRECT influence on mortality. Lets not forget the quality of nurses, which are also key. The VA hospital is the best care in the nation because all the doctors communicate with each other and collaborate with each other in a patient basis. They also are not financially motivated to prescribe unnecessary drugs, treatments or tests. They are financially motivated to MAKE YOU GET BETTER. Which is a VERY different goal. After all the best treatment is often NOT the most expensive.
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