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Test your HealthCare IQ! - Page 2

Poll Results: Which is the following is FALSE?

This is a multiple choice poll
  • 13% (6)
    The Veteran hospital (VA) is government-run and the best care in the USA
  • 8% (4)
    Canadians love their government-run healthcare system
  • 11% (5)
    Basic healthcare is a recognized right for citizens in most developed countries
  • 13% (6)
    The Obama proposed reform will not add to the overall deficit
  • 11% (5)
    The Obama proposed plan puts evidence-based medicine ahead of financial incentives for doctors
  • 4% (2)
    Many GOP and Blue Dog Dems have been bought by health insurance and big pharma
  • 6% (3)
    The inclusion of professional assistance for counseling terminally ill is humane and necesary
  • 13% (6)
    Disruption of town-hall meetings was orchestrated by health insurance companies and big pharma
  • 6% (3)
    Special interest (insurance and big pharma) spends $1.2 million + a DAY to defeat healthcare reform
  • 11% (5)
    The GOP is going everything in their power to block legislation and thwart 70% of the population
45 Total Votes  
post #41 of 140
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tauron View Post

Yes and your are not touching even 5% of the healthcare equation.

Surgery is just one aspect. You have also all the clinical disciplines such as cardiology, orthopedics, endocrinology, nephrology, psychology, oncology, gastroenterology, etc, etc. Any one of those has a DIRECT influence on mortality. Lets not forget the quality of nurses, which are also key. The VA hospital is the best care in the nation because all the doctors communicate with each other and collaborate with each other in a patient basis. They also are not financially motivated to prescribe unnecessary drugs, treatments or tests. They are financially motivated to MAKE YOU GET BETTER. Which is a VERY different goal. After all the best treatment is often NOT the most expensive.

OK, now back up your assertions with citations.

Come on, you know how this works. Do you take what I say at face value? Of course not, you challenge it. Then I back it up with citation. Now, it's your turn. It's not rocket science, it's debate 101.
post #42 of 140
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taskiss View Post

OK, now back up your assertions with citations.

Come on, you know how this works. Do you take what I say at face value? Of course not, you challenge it. Then I back it up with citation. Now, it's your turn. It's not rocket science, it's debate 101.

Use google. "medicine disciplines". Off you go.
post #43 of 140
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tauron View Post

Use google. "medicine disciplines". Off you go.

You should just admit you don't have anything.

Why do you even post if you're not going to do anything other than make it up as you go along? I mean, sheesh! A person can either back it up or they're making it up. Pretty simple, really.

You made an assertion, I checked it out. From what I found, it's not accurate. I looked looked for studies that compared VA care v. private, and I posted what I found, then I even looked deeper, trying to see if there were any newer studies.

You... just spout whatever you think you know and don't have evidence that'll stand up to the challenge. Just give it up. Big boys play by stricter rules, I guess.
post #44 of 140
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taskiss View Post

You should just admit you don't have anything.

Why do you even post if you're not going to do anything other than make it up as you go along? I mean, sheesh! A person can either back it up or they're making it up. Pretty simple, really.

You made an assertion, I checked it out. From what I found, it's not accurate. I looked looked for studies that compared VA care v. private, and I posted what I found, then I even looked deeper, trying to see if there were any newer studies.

You... just spout whatever you think you know and don't have evidence that'll stand up to the challenge. Just give it up. Big boys play by stricter rules, I guess.

Go read my long post. I am done with you. Next!!
post #45 of 140
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tauron View Post

Go read my long post. I am done with you. Next!!

A reply of, You are stupid and uninformed, does not make a good reply. You are making claims of the nature of care from the VA hospitals, and how good they are. I have not read any stories and can only go by what I have seen and heard with my father. He has had major surgery and has done the minor visits as well. I have seen nothing showing me they are better. I have had my own share of doctors visits as well. His visits, really not much different than mine. From my perspective, your argument is not true. Like I said:
Quote:
For what he pays (nothing but his time in the military), it is good. The best in the country? Not really.

If I could pay more for health care I could get way better care than anyone I know. Private nurses, my own medical staff. Sorry, but the level of care is going to depend on what you pay into it. Just like anything else. You will have some economies of scale involved, and possibly regulation could also come into play, but none of that affects the quality to the degree you are claiming.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
post #46 of 140
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

A reply of, You are stupid and uninformed, does not make a good reply.

I posted facts - studies by the VA itself claiming parity (but no more than parity) with private providers where mortailty rates are concerned...and there's no more important criteria as a basis of comparison for health care. He had ... opinion. Just subjective opinion.

Of course he's going to resort to insult. It's all he's got left.
post #47 of 140
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tauron View Post

Other people with their own agendas that had no understanding of the issue and were scared off by the right-wing propaganda into action.

Can you please clean this up so it is understandable? Are you trying to say that Right-Wing people were whipped into action by further right-wing propaganda? how does "Scared Off" come into this? And how does my statement have anything to do with People that have no understanding? Are only people who have no understanding of this issue against it?

Quote:
Proof? The proof is that they have no understanding of the issues, just like YOU have no or little understanding. Because if they had an understanding and an argument we would have heard it before.

Can you prove that? That is a logical fallacy if I ever heard one.

Quote:
What we have here is part of the country is concerned and looking for an alternative to a broken system, and part of the country act by impulse and fear, and has zero understanding (fear comes from a lack of understanding).

Have YOU attempted to learn about this issue?? Because, you know, I don't know about you but I don't want to be paying $15K a years to make doctors and insurance CEOs rich.

I am in the process of gaining an understanding. The more I see, the less I like most of it. It is a lot to understand, and simply understanding will not always convert one to the issue's side. If I do fully understand and still disagree does that make me uninformed still?
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
post #48 of 140
The Best Care Anywhere

Read 'em and weep. \
Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!
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Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!
Reply
post #49 of 140
Nice article. Glad to see vets are overall getting good care. My fathers care was not any better than anything I have seen, but that is admittedly only one datapoint.

Questions:
How much does it cost in taxes/other expenses?
If you grow it to cover the entire population, what would that cost?
With that big of a size increase, will it implode or can it scale appropriately?

Facts are good, thanks!
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
post #50 of 140
Per the US Department of Veteran Affairs:

http://www.hsrd.research.va.gov/news...ity-082708.cfm
Quote:
All the measurements studied give hospitals ways to assess and improve quality of care, but mortality rates (inpatient and post-discharge) are considered of the highest value in measuring performance.

If the article doesn't use mortality rate as the criteria, it's not using the highest value of performance measurement.
post #51 of 140
Quote:
Originally Posted by franksargent View Post

The Best Care Anywhere

Read 'em and weep. \

Mitchell calls on Government Accountability Office to Study VA Quality and Standard Controls

Then there are these little things that cause the questions to come creeping in... Looking to now to see why GAO needs to look into the VA. From the Site:

Quote:
Recent high-profile reports of "botched" medical procedures such as colonoscopies, prostate cancer therapy, and vision exams have shaken the veteran community's trust in VA the healthcare system. The House Committee on Veterans' Affairs Subcommittee on Oversight and Investigations recently held a hearing on endoscopy reprocessing, where it was suggested that private care providers would not disclose adverse events as the VA was required to do. Responses from the VA have proven unsatisfactory in assuaging veterans' fears that VA care may actually place them in danger.

Hopefully this is just the exceptions and not becoming the rule.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
post #52 of 140
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by franksargent View Post

The Best Care Anywhere

Read 'em and weep. \

There you go. When I posted a link for this book apparently nobody clicked it. But this one is even easier for you folks out there to click.

As for the statement that "of course if you pay more you are going to get better care" that somebody made all I can say is that you could not possibly be more wrong. Most doctors (and there are books out there on the subject) have proven that doing simple things like a physical examination (looking, touching, asking questions) can lead to better diagnosis than MIR scans and other expensive tests. Doctors don't think anymore and thinking is what has value.

So no, in this care "cheaper" care can and likely will have better results than expensive.
post #53 of 140
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taskiss View Post

Per the US Department of Veteran Affairs:

http://www.hsrd.research.va.gov/news...ity-082708.cfm


If the article doesn't use mortality rate as the criteria, it's not using the highest value of performance measurement.

No it is not. Most veterans already have preexisting conditions due to the trauma of war. Many have PTSD (post traumatic stress disorder), and they develop cardiovascular disease and diabetes 4 times more than the average population. So saying they have higher mortality really has no meaning because you didn't take into account their health before they were admitted to the hospital in the first place.
post #54 of 140
Thread Starter 
Informative article, for you people:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/14/he...er=rss&emc=rss
post #55 of 140
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

No, they are not all true. And I decline. You didn't provide proof, so why should I have to?

Why don't you just admit you don't know? No one will think less of you!
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #56 of 140
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

Why don't you just admit you don't know? No one will think less of you!

Oooooh, ya really got me, there! That was a good one! Very original, too!

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #57 of 140
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tauron View Post

1. The VA is better than the health care of you or I get. See my post above.

A link to a book? Do a google search and read the accounts. Talk to people. There are accounts of denied care, long waits, mistakes, etc. The fact that you think our government can run, well, anything other than the defense department is hysterical. We see examples every single day.

Quote:


2. Nothing in life is perfect and the Canadian system is also not perfect, but it is also not broken. In fact it works very well and Canadians love it. Go read about it and you will see.

No, I would like some links....you know, proof. In the meantime, chew on this: http://www.city-journal.org/html/17_...ealthcare.html
Quote:
3. Universal Declaration of Human Rights: Mkay?

Well that's interesting, because I don't see that here.

Quote:
4. This assertion is extremely true. The point here is not that healthcare reform will be free. Of course it won't be free. But the cost for the country if we continue doing nothing about healthcare will be much greater. So yes, in fact, healthcare reform has the potential to save us a ton of money in the long run.

Again...no links, no studies, just your word, which is really Obama's. The fact that you think the government can spend at least 1 trillion dollars with no fiscal impact is absurd. Obama and the House leaders haven't shown evidence of your claim, and neither have you.

Quote:

5. Current healthcare emphasizes remedies and underemphasizes prevention. This is the conclusion of many clinical studies. For proof go to NIH (National institutes of health) and look at their current research focus: you will see the word "prevention" and "lifestyle improvement" and "care cost reduction" over and over.

So we're going to mandate those?

Quote:
6. See here for an extensive list of officials bought and paid for insurance companies and other large corporations: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cRS8TKD2lB4

HAHAHAHAH. A youtube video?

Quote:


7. What you are saying is just a regurgitation of the right wing propaganda. Have you tried to find out what it actually says? No, I didn't think so.

I know what it says. Apparently you're wrong though, because it's now going to be dropped. Gee, wonder why that happened.


Yes, a link from thinkprogress! At least they have no agenda. You post one memo and that invalidates all protest. Nice try.

9. The number is actually higher than 1.2 million a DAY: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...l?hpid=topnews[/quote]

Oh my God....you mean companies hire lobbyists!?!?!

Quote:


10.See my other post. The 70% number is about right.

It's not even close to right. Obama has a 47% approval rating this week. You ignored polling data from Gallup.
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post #58 of 140
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

A link to a book? You're a loon. Do a google search and read the accounts. Talk to people. There are accounts of denied care, long waits, mistakes, etc. The fact that you think our government can run, well, anything other than the defense department is hysterical. We see examples every single day.



No, I would like some links....you know, proof. In the meantime, chew on this: http://www.city-journal.org/html/17_...ealthcare.html


Well that's interesting, because I don't see that here.



Again...no links, no studies, just your word, which is really Obama's. The fact that you think the government can spend at least 1 trillion dollars with no fiscal impact is absurd. Obama and the House leaders haven't shown evidence of your claim, and neither have you.



So we're going to mandate those?



HAHAHAHAH. A youtube video?



I know what it says. Apparently you're wrong though, because it's now going to be dropped. Gee, wonder why that happened.



Yes, a link from thinkprogress! At least they have no agenda. You post one memo and that invalidates all protest. Nice try.

9. The number is actually higher than 1.2 million a DAY: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...l?hpid=topnews

Oh my God....you mean companies hire lobbyists!?!?!



It's not even close to right. Obama has a 47% approval rating this week. You ignored polling data from Gallup.



Look, you can spin reality all you want. In the end it is you who lose.
post #59 of 140
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tauron View Post

No it is not. Most veterans already have preexisting conditions due to the trauma of war. Many have PTSD (post traumatic stress disorder), and they develop cardiovascular disease and diabetes 4 times more than the average population. So saying they have higher mortality really has no meaning because you didn't take into account their health before they were admitted to the hospital in the first place.

So, what are you saying? You're disagreeing with the Veterans Department on what it considers is the best way to measure performance?

You need to pick a side and stick with it. It's best to not discredit the very organization you're relying on for your argument.
post #60 of 140
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taskiss View Post

So, what are you saying? You're disagreeing with the Veterans Department on what it considers is the best way to measure performance?

You need to pick a side and stick with it. It's best to not discredit the very organization you're relying on for your argument.

No, I am disagreeing with your "conclusion".
post #61 of 140
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tauron View Post

No, I am disagreeing with your "conclusion".

It's not my conclusion, it's exactly what the Department of Veteran Affairs communicated on it's web site that I linked to. I just happen to agree.
post #62 of 140
Quote:
Originally Posted by involuntary_serf View Post

We have evidence that at least one of those is false:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3EPd2i4Jshs

How can any reasonable person link to this video as proof of anything other than, "I believe anyone who supports my own opinion blindly?"
post #63 of 140
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stinkbug View Post

How can any reasonable person link to this video as proof of anything other than, "I believe anyone who supports my own opinion blindly?"

Tauron claimed that all Canadians love their health care system. All that's needed to prove that "fact" to be false is to find one who doesn't. In that video it sounds like there were about a half dozen Canadians and all (in that sample) did not like the system.

Now I would never claim that all Canadian dislike their system. Surely some do like it. Surely some do not. The point was that the claim that Canadians all lover their system is false.
post #64 of 140
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by involuntary_serf View Post

Tauron claimed that all Canadians love their health care system. All that's needed to prove that "fact" to be false is to find one who doesn't. In that video it sounds like there were about a half dozen Canadians and all (in that sample) did not like the system.

Now I would never claim that all Canadian dislike their system. Surely some do like it. Surely some do not. The point was that the claim that Canadians all lover their system is false.

post #65 of 140
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tauron View Post


It's a fine point, I realize. Sort of like the assertions being made that health care isn't available to everyone in the US already.

If you need emergency care, you can walk in any hospital and they are legally required to provide service, no matter if you're insured or not, a legal citizen, whatever.

Lots of hair splitting going on around this issue.
post #66 of 140
Quote:
Originally Posted by involuntary_serf View Post

Tauron claimed that all Canadians love their health care system. All that's needed to prove that "fact" to be false is to find one who doesn't. In that video it sounds like there were about a half dozen Canadians and all (in that sample) did not like the system.

Now I would never claim that all Canadian dislike their system. Surely some do like it. Surely some do not. The point was that the claim that Canadians all lover their system is false.

There is no proof whatsoever that there is one Canadian person in this audience. Actually there is no proof that there is an audience. I would recommend finding a video from Canada, an interview or such with Canadians who are questioned by and independent person about their health care. Some discussion forum led by well established right wing pundits is no place to obtain any kind of realistic gauge. If you intent to be taking seriously you will have to dig much deeper than this.
post #67 of 140
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stinkbug View Post

There is no proof whatsoever that there is one Canadian person in this audience. Actually there is no proof that there is an audience.

True. I suspect Paul Krugman was just voluntarily making himself look like a fool*.


*This could be, he regularly does in his New York Times column but I don't think he realizes it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Stinkbug View Post

If you intent to be taking seriously you will have to dig much deeper than this.

Perhaps the poster making the initial "factual" claim should be supporting his claim. Should be easy enough...just find a poll of all Canadians that asks if they love their health care system where the answer is 100% "yes".

It's just such a dubious claim it's hardly worth the research I've already done (which is, apparently, more than that poster has!)
post #68 of 140
Quote:
Originally Posted by involuntary_serf View Post

True. I suspect Paul Krugman was just voluntarily making himself look like a fool*.


*This could be, he regularly does in his New York Times column but I don't think he realizes it.




Perhaps the poster making the initial "factual" claim should be supporting his claim. Should be easy enough...just find a poll of all Canadians that asks if they love their health care system where the answer is 100% "yes".

It's just such a dubious claim it's hardly worth the research I've already done (which is, apparently, more than that poster has!)

To be honest, I do not understand both of your view points. There is no single payer health care system being discussed for the US. At best it looks like a regulatory legislation to prevent insurance companies from dropping or not insuring people with preexisting ailments. If a public option makes it, it will simply be another insurance co. As I understand insurers already get government handouts. The same funds could be used to simply establish not for profit government insurance. I had a major surgery and all I can say, the sooner the better doctors must share test results. I had the same tests done on me by 3 doctors with the exact same results, what a waste. Anyone opposed to such a system believes in waste. Waste of time, money, administrative costs, doctor - patient time and more. Record sharing is something we desperately need for the betterment of all.
post #69 of 140
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stinkbug View Post

There is no single payer health care system being discussed for the US. At best it looks like a regulatory legislation to prevent insurance companies from dropping or not insuring people with preexisting ailments. If a public option makes it, it will simply be another insurance co.

If you say so. I don't share your optimism.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Stinkbug View Post

As I understand insurers already get government handouts. The same funds could be used to simply establish not for profit government insurance.

It seems to me that saying "for profit government insurance" reflects a misunderstanding what government is and how it operates. In fact many people supportive of this "reform" plan actually think things will be better without profit making insurance companies.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Stinkbug View Post

Anyone opposed to such a system believes in waste.

Thanks for the nifty non sequitur.
post #70 of 140
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tauron View Post



Look, you can spin reality all you want. In the end it is you who lose.

Uh...

I quote specific poll data, and that is spinning? "Spinning" is not when people disagree with you. "Spinning" is not when you are asked to provide this little thing we call EVIDENCE to support your claims.
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post #71 of 140
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stinkbug View Post

There is no proof whatsoever that there is one Canadian person in this audience. Actually there is no proof that there is an audience. I would recommend finding a video from Canada, an interview or such with Canadians who are questioned by and independent person about their health care. Some discussion forum led by well established right wing pundits is no place to obtain any kind of realistic gauge. If you intent to be taking seriously you will have to dig much deeper than this.

Paul Krugman, Right Wing Extremist

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post #72 of 140
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stinkbug View Post

There is no proof whatsoever that there is one Canadian person in this audience.

You seriously don't accept this as a given? This is PAUL KRUGMAN we are talking about. What...is he pretending? Of all the arguments you could make about this issue, this is the weakest.

Quote:
Actually there is no proof that there is an audience. I would recommend finding a video from Canada,

What the hell does "from Canada mean?"

Quote:
an interview or such with Canadians who are questioned by and independent person about their health care.

Right...like Michael Moore, maybe?

Quote:
Some discussion forum led by well established right wing pundits is no place to obtain any kind of realistic gauge. If you intent to be taking seriously you will have to dig much deeper than this.

And if you intend to be taken seriously, you should realize that Krugman is a lefty-loon.
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post #73 of 140
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

You seriously don't accept this as a given? This is PAUL KRUGMAN we are talking about. What...is he pretending? Of all the arguments you could make about this issue, this is the weakest.



What the hell does "from Canada mean?"



Right...like Michael Moore, maybe?



And if you intend to be taken seriously, you should realize that Krugman is a lefty-loon.

Quote:
And if you intend to be taken seriously, you should realize that Krugman is a lefty-loon.

Lefty-loon? You're not polarized at all are you?

Well he's not a right wingnut job that's for sure.

I have a lot of respect for Mr. Krugman. Sorry if that shakes your take on the universe.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #74 of 140
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Oooooh, ya really got me, there! That was a good one! Very original, too!

I just thought it was in keeping with your way of thinking.

And yes I did get you there. Thanks for realizing that.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #75 of 140
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

I just thought it was in keeping with your way of thinking.

And yes I did get you there. Thanks for realizing that.

By golly, ya got me again! You're on a roll!

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #76 of 140
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

By golly, ya got me again! You're on a roll!

I just thought since you were being hoisted how's that petard?

Quote:
"For tis the sport to have the enginer Hoist with his owne petar".
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #77 of 140
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

I just thought since you were being hoisted how's that petard?

Oooooh! Zing! I sure got burned, there! You're sure putting me in my place.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #78 of 140
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Oooooh! Zing! I sure got burned, there! You're sure putting me in my place.

I just thought I'd return in kind.

Sorry if it bothered you.

So let's see how many times you have to have the last word about this.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #79 of 140
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

So let's see how many times you have to have the last word about this.

Or you.
post #80 of 140
Quote:
Originally Posted by involuntary_serf View Post

Or you.

The problem with wrestling with a pig is you look silly rolling in slop, and the pig enjoys it.
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