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TomTom iPhone app released in New Zealand, priced at $84 U.S.

post #1 of 37
Thread Starter 
The TomTom application for iPhone appeared in the Australian and New Zealand Apple App Stores Sunday, with the software-only offering available at a U.S. price of $84.41.

Discovered by MacRumors, the application offers four separate maps for purchase: U.S. & Canada ($124.99 N.Z., $84.41 U.S.), Western Europe ($179.99 N.Z., $121.55 U.S.), Australia ($104.99 N.Z., $70.90 U.S.) and New Zealand ($119.99 N.Z., $81.03 U.S.). The software is separate from the hardware combo that will be offered by TomTom at a later date.

While the application first appeared in the New Zealand store, and later in Australia as well, it was not, as of Sunday evening, made available for sale elsewhere. After it had announced the product this summer, TomTom did not provided any official release date.

The application is said to take advantage of iPhone OS 3.0's support for true, turn-by-turn directions. The software has both nation-specific and international maps from TomTom, works in either landscape or portrait modes, and gives voice directions.

TomTom did not provide an official price for its iPhone application once it was announced. A possible glimpse was given earlier this month, when a reseller listed the hardware and software combo for sale for $168.50 U.S. At the time, a company spokesman contacted by AppleInsider could not confirm that price.

The TomTom iPhone application.

The TomTom software was beaten to market by a few competing options. The AT&T Navigator application hit the App Store in June. The software is free, but requires a $9.95 monthly service subscription, which the exclusive U.S. iPhone carrier plans to market alongside new iPhone sales at its retail and online stores as a bolt-on service. And the Navigon MobileNavigator application is priced at $99, but on sale for $69 through Aug. 15. It features NAVTEQ maps, lane assist, and day and night modes.

While the TomTom software relies solely on the iPhone's internal GPS receiver, the hardware kit will come with its own, separate GPS. It will be one of the first external accessories to take advantage of iPhone 3.0's external hardware capabilities.

First unveiled by Apple at the WWDC event in June, the accessory kit will act as a basic suction-cup mount for the dashboard or windshield. Additionally, it will amplify the GPS signal, support both hands-free calling and music through the stereo system, and charge the iPhone from the car's 12-volt port.

The TomTom iPhone mount will boost the device's GPS reception.
post #2 of 37
I want to know what it can do with traffic and map updates. I'm assuming the maps are stored locally on the phone. If this winds up working as well as it should, I'm in! Also, can the mount be put on something other than a suction cup? I have a sandbag that I just throw up on the dash that works very well for my Garmin.

I also hope the 3G is able to handle it, because mine has been terribly laggy since 3.0.
post #3 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

While the TomTom software relies solely on the iPhone's internal GPS receiver, the hardware kit will come with its own, separate GPS. It will be one of the first external accessories to take advantage of iPhone 3.0's external hardware capabilities.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tulkas View Post

For the rest of your points, besides internet rumours, can you provide links where TomTom states that the App will be fully functional without the cradle? With the rumoured price, if it is accurate, and is for the cradle, then the price every one went ballistic about will perhaps be even higher, once they add the app.

Look no further.
post #4 of 37
Quote:
Additionally, it will amplify the GPS signal, support both hands-free calling and music through the stereo system, and charge the iPhone from the car's 12-volt port.

So does this mean I will be able to stream music from my iPhone to my car's stereo without plugging in the iPhone, even though my car doesn't support A2DP?
post #5 of 37
This means it will be sold in the US for $99.99.
post #6 of 37
wonder if the hardware combo will give the 1st gen iphone ability also since the mount has its own gps hardware
post #7 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by Abster2core View Post

Look no further.

Um, yeah, I thought we had already settled that when you noted it was stated in the WWDC keynote (though nowhere else at the time).

But this price is a little higher than your quoted rumoured price of $1 for the software. hopefully the cradle doesn't double or triple the total.

"My 8th grade math teacher once said: "You can't help it if you're dumb, you are born that way. But stupid is self inflicted."" -Hiro. 

...sometimes it's both
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"My 8th grade math teacher once said: "You can't help it if you're dumb, you are born that way. But stupid is self inflicted."" -Hiro. 

...sometimes it's both
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post #8 of 37
My question is, will it have all the nice features found on the $500 Tom Tom models like live traffic and weather or is tom tom going to cripple it. If it just has everything as the tom tom one i'll just grab one from ebay for $70, but if it has all the nice features as the high end models i'll pay $80 for it in a heart beat.
post #9 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tulkas View Post

Um, yeah, I thought we had already settled that when you noted it was stated in the WWDC keynote (though nowhere else at the time).

But this price is a little higher than your quoted rumoured price of $1 for the software. hopefully the cradle doesn't double or triple the total.

Did I quote a dollar?

As previously reported, "A U.K Web site has made the TomTom cradle and accompanying software available for pre-order at a cost of 99 pounds, or about $168.50 U.S., though a company spokesman would not confirm that price." http://forums.appleinsider.com/showt...32#post1460532

Based on the first report, i.e., holder $168 + software $84 + maps $84 = $334. This may seem high, but it is less that what TomTom's and Garmin's high end GPS which are not nearly as functional/featured as the iPhone/TomTom system, i.e., $369.95 US. http://www.tomtom.com/products/category.php?ID=0&Lid=4
post #10 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

A possible glimpse was given earlier this month, when a reseller listed the hardware and software combo for sale for $168.50 U.S.

I said this August 6th for the article about the app costing $168.50, which I knew this was complete B.S.!!!

================================

08-06-2009, 05:55 PM
mesomorphicman / Registered User

I fully understand this is a rumor/comment site, but some people go to extremes with worry and anger from a rumor, wow!

Well...

1_ Don't most things like the iPhone cost more in U.K./Europe? The 32GB iPhone 3GS in England cost £538.30 - that is $903.67 USD. Obviously the iPhone in the U.S. is well under that price. So, why would people think a TomTom that sells for £99 ($168) in the U.K. would cost comparable in the U.S.? That seems foolish and alarmist.

2_ Looking at the TomTom website, it seems most cost between $129 - 159, so even if it did cost $169, that does not seem extreme to me. But I still seriously doubt it will cost that much, to compete with Navigon which got a bad review on USA Today, they will likely sell it for $90-120.

3_ The USA Today Navigon review: http://www.usatoday.com/tech/columni...e-iphone_N.htm
usatoday.com/tech/columnist/edwardbaig/2009-08-05-app-navigate-iphone_N.htm

4_ As long as they don't have a monthly fee and force people to buy updated maps every year, I am definitely going to buy the TomTom app - I know it will be great. Better to wait as TomTom and do it right, then rush to market like Navigon with a half asz app that they admit needs multiple fixes. I never had a navigation system, but having one in my pocket at all times will be awesome.

5_ The guy who said, people will break cars to steal the mount, that is more ridiculous alarm-ism. When is the last time you or anyone ever paid 5 seconds of attention to what kind of mount someone had in their car? Maybe a few might be stolen and that is a huge MAYBE, but I don't see thieves walking around bashing windows for a mount, that is silly.

Go TomTom, release it soon!!


================================

I would be very surprised if it cost more than $100.00. I look forward to it.
post #11 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by Abster2core View Post

Did I quote a dollar?

well, I didn't want to pick over a penny.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Abster2core View Post

Rumor has it that at 99¢ they are going to sell it for, many here still wouldn't buy it.

"My 8th grade math teacher once said: "You can't help it if you're dumb, you are born that way. But stupid is self inflicted."" -Hiro. 

...sometimes it's both
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"My 8th grade math teacher once said: "You can't help it if you're dumb, you are born that way. But stupid is self inflicted."" -Hiro. 

...sometimes it's both
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post #12 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by Abster2core View Post


Based on the first report, i.e., holder $168 + software $84 + maps $84 = $334. This may seem high, but it is less that what TomTom's and Garmin's high end GPS which are not nearly as functional/featured as the iPhone/TomTom system, i.e., $369.95 US. http://www.tomtom.com/products/category.php?ID=0&Lid=4

All of that seems to be intentionally misleading, as it doesn't include the cost of the iphone, at the least, or the required data (and voice) plan.

If you are going to leave out those costs, then it would only be fair to leave of the rest of the iPhone functionality, other than that which is used by the TomTom software and hardware. Then there is not so large a feature/function gap.

But, I think you have ably demonstrated that none of this really matters. They could ask for your left nut and first born, and if it relates to AT&T or Apple or their partners, it is reasonable. And those that don't agree are simply cheap, uneducated or greedy.

"My 8th grade math teacher once said: "You can't help it if you're dumb, you are born that way. But stupid is self inflicted."" -Hiro. 

...sometimes it's both
Reply

"My 8th grade math teacher once said: "You can't help it if you're dumb, you are born that way. But stupid is self inflicted."" -Hiro. 

...sometimes it's both
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post #13 of 37
WOW!...

I've seen this site do some deleting of Trolling but for MacRumors to have 254 comments about 1/2 of which are negative and AppleInsider has 11?

Either this site is owned by Apple or has major stock in TomTom.

In my opinion the European & New Zealand pricing is a joke.

Why would the iPhone need a GPS adapter if the signal was strong enough?

Way over priced. Take a look at their 5 year chart. They need this to work or they are Chap 11 very soon!

http://finance.yahoo.com/q/bc?s=TOM2...=on&z=m&q=l&c=
post #14 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tulkas View Post

well, I didn't want to pick over a penny.

He never said that it would cost a dollar or that he thinks it would cost dollar. That sentence is clearly stating that even with a rumoured price by some of the lowest cost value on the App Store that many would still not want to buy it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tulkas View Post

All of that seems to be intentionally misleading, as it doesn't include the cost of the iphone, at the least, or the required data (and voice) plan.

If you are going to leave out those costs, then it would only be fair to leave of the rest of the iPhone functionality, other than that which is used by the TomTom software and hardware. Then there is not so large a feature/function gap.

But, I think you have ably demonstrated that none of this really matters. They could ask for your left nut and first born, and if it relates to AT&T or Apple or their partners, it is reasonable. And those that don't agree are simply cheap, uneducated or greedy.

Why would an App Store app include the cost of the iPhone? That doesnt even make sense. Its an app you buy, plain and simple. I would rather buy this app than have to buy a GPS that is stand alone and costs more money. Partially because I dont necessarily need the mount kit, but mostly because I, like many, prefer to consolidate my devices when its useful to do so.

My biggest gripe with this app is that TomTom now has more powerful CPU, GPU, plenty of RAM and storage, better LCD resolution, as well as always on connection to the internet with the iPhone which can allow for a much needed jump in how the software works, yet they seem to have limited it to the TomTom UI found in their weaker devices. I understand that this will take some time, and if they or others truly come out with a compelling evolution to GPS apps Ill buy it, but it wont be because of the price listed on this site, which is well within reason.
post #15 of 37
Meh, I don't care about 3D graphics, I want a functional GPS that's easy to read, shows me the info I want in an easy to use display. Fancy 3D displays generally are more of a distraction then a benefit. I had a Garmin iQue - a Palm PDA and Garmin GPS built into one - I love the display on it. Problem is it doesn't do Text to Speach, and since it came out in 2004 the hardware is getting a little long in the tooth.

So I got a new Garmin Nuvi. Hated it. All these cutsie features and graphics, but low on functionality. The trip display on it is positively anemic The screen shots for the TomTom app are closest to what I had on the iQue - I'll be watching closely. If it's as close as it appears, it will be an easy sell for me.

As for the price - sure, who wouldn't want it to be $.99 fact is, they will probably introduce it high - wait for the early adopters/gotta have it group to clear out and then lower the price to pick up everyone else. I just haven't decided which group I'll be in. The idea of having a full featured GPS in my iPhone is wonderful - one device with me that can do it all.

The people whining about using iPod or the phone features with GPS - have you even used an iPhone? I have found very few iPhone apps that don't integrate well with either the built-iPod app or the phone app.
post #16 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by DocNo42 View Post

Meh, I don't care about 3D graphics, I want a functional GPS that's easy to read, shows me the info I want in an easy to use display. Fancy 3D displays generally are more of a distraction then a benefit.

Generally, that may be true. Too often developers are focusing on shiny things to attract the viewer while not considering functionality. However, there are some 3D aspects and better interface that I hope the major GPS makers will add now that they have the SDK and the hardware at their disposal. XROAD has paved the way a little bit. Ive purchased one of their state apps for testing; it works well and though I prefer the look of TomToms main map there is a lot the major developers can learn from XROAD.

A couple examples

http://www.xroadgps.com/Maps/GMapfor...6/Default.aspx
http://www.xroadgps.com/Maps/GMapfor...1/Default.aspx
post #17 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by Propofol View Post

So does this mean I will be able to stream music from my iPhone to my car's stereo without plugging in the iPhone, even though my car doesn't support A2DP?

I was kinda wondering the same thing. I don't recall seeing anything that said how it was connecting to the car's stereo. Bluetooth, wired connection, FM transmitter?

Unfortunately, barring getting a whole new car stereo, FM is my only option.
post #18 of 37
We are possibly within a few hours of the US release, I'm excited. Although my jobs requires that I have a GPS and I purchased one about 2 years ago. A TomTom One XL for $269 at Circuit City. It works OK, but there are many glitches. In the area that I live in it requires me to drive from one city to another and there is a major road that runs North to South and if I'm going across this road to get to the other city then my GPS freezes up and reboots on its own. Now I know its not just mine, but all TomToms in my area have this problem. I'm a technician and the majority of us bought TomToms and every one of us have this same problem. I really hope this it can be resolved with this app and I am hoping that it can do wifi or 3G updates on the go without having to sync the maps thru iTunes.

I'll be waking up in about 7 hours and I hope to see the app sitting in the App Store before I go to work so I can play with it tomorrow. I'll get it only if it's under $100.
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post #19 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wiggin View Post

I was kinda wondering the same thing. I don't recall seeing anything that said how it was connecting to the car's stereo. Bluetooth, wired connection, FM transmitter?

Unfortunately, barring getting a whole new car stereo, FM is my only option.

I was eager to throw all my eggs in one basket until I seen this link.

http://www.navigadget.com/index.php/...iphone-car-kit

Apparently, the iPhone to car stereo for music is thru the normal 3.5mm jack. I was looking forward to a built-in FM transmitter...
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post #20 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wiggin View Post

I was kinda wondering the same thing. I don't recall seeing anything that said how it was connecting to the car's stereo. Bluetooth, wired connection, FM transmitter?

Unfortunately, barring getting a whole new car stereo, FM is my only option.

If you already dont have an FM transmitter Id just buy a new stereo with a ⅛ headphone input jack in it. The mounting kit has that option pulling from the 30-pin connector, though I would have also liked to have seen a USB input cable coming off of it to since USB inputs are getting more and more common in stereos.

Its easy to make the iPod app still work with another app running in the foreground. The best news is that the software will reportedly allow for handsfree calling while using the GPS. I hope that is true.
post #21 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by Logisticaldron View Post

He never said that it would cost a dollar or that he thinks it would cost dollar. That sentence is clearly stating that even with a rumoured price by some of the lowest cost value on the App Store that many would still not want to buy it.

No, that is not what he said. He said both that the rumored price was 99 cents and that some still would not buy it. He may have been trying to be sarcastic or facetious, but the fact is, it is what he stated. Trying to parse it to say otherwise than was actually and clearly written is just silly.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Logisticaldron View Post

Why would an App Store app include the cost of the iPhone? That doesn’t even make sense. It’s an app you buy, plain and simple.

Umm, not what what exactly you are reading? I did not mention the cost of the app nor include the cost of the phone with the app. Really, where did you read that?

I was referring to Abster2Core comparing the cumulative price of the app + maps +holder to the price of a higher end dedicated unit and the implication that the TomTom on iPhone was a better value proposition because of everything else the iPhone/TomTom combination could do....

No too difficult to understand.

Now, if you are going to say the total cost of the TomTom/iPhone setup is reasonable compared to a stand along highend GPS unit, then you are, of course, including all of the iPhone functionality in that equation. Then it is only fair to include the total cost of the iPhone, since those feature didn't come for free...i.e you paid for them with your phone and plan.

Not too tough to understand.

"My 8th grade math teacher once said: "You can't help it if you're dumb, you are born that way. But stupid is self inflicted."" -Hiro. 

...sometimes it's both
Reply

"My 8th grade math teacher once said: "You can't help it if you're dumb, you are born that way. But stupid is self inflicted."" -Hiro. 

...sometimes it's both
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post #22 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by Logisticaldron View Post

If you already dont have an FM transmitter Id just buy a new stereo with a ⅛ headphone input jack in it. The mounting kit has that option pulling from the 30-pin connector, though I would have also liked to have seen a USB input cable coming off of it to since USB inputs are getting more and more common in stereos.

Its easy to make the iPod app still work with another app running in the foreground. The best news is that the software will reportedly allow for handsfree calling while using the GPS. I hope that is true.

Or he/she could save a ton of money...

http://www.accessorygenie.com/advanc...ng-p-2545.html
post #23 of 37
Yet for $20 NZ less I can get this:

http://itunes.apple.com/WebObjects/M...319361043&mt=8

Which includes maps for BOTH New Zealand and Australia as opposed to the $240NZ needed to get Tom Tom.

Man, I was so looking forward to this but I guess big capitalists like to rip people off.

I might hold off judgement though for the bundled hardware version because the GPS boost would be great.
post #24 of 37
In the Australian App store it's $A99.99, NZ maps are $A114.99, US maps are $A119.99 and Western European maps are $A169.99
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post #25 of 37
Well, it's in the US iTunes Music Store:

http://itunes.apple.com/WebObjects/M...326075661&mt=8

$99

Ack....
post #26 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by Abster2core View Post

Did I quote a dollar?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tulkas View Post

well, I didn't want to pick over a penny.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Abster2core View Post

Rumor has it that at 99¢ they are going to sell it for, many here still wouldn't buy it.

Where did you lift that? I didn't find that on the post linked by the arrow after Abster's name.
post #27 of 37
I bought one of those and ended up throwing it away, it flopped all over the place as it is only attached at the lighter socket, I used to lean it against my leg to steady it, the FM transmitter kept dropping out and on long car journeys it would be swamped by local stations.

Now I wonder how much one of these will cost:-

http://iphone.tomtom.com/

Quote:
Originally Posted by John French View Post

Or he/she could save a ton of money...

http://www.accessorygenie.com/advanc...ng-p-2545.html
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post #28 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by Footloose301 View Post

I was eager to throw all my eggs in one basket until I seen this link.

http://www.navigadget.com/index.php/...iphone-car-kit

Apparently, the iPhone to car stereo for music is thru the normal 3.5mm jack. I was looking forward to a built-in FM transmitter...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Logisticaldron View Post

If you already don’t have an FM transmitter I’d just buy a new stereo with a ⅛” headphone input jack in it. The mounting kit has that option pulling from the 30-pin connector, though I would have also liked to have seen a USB input cable coming off of it to since USB inputs are getting more and more common in stereos.

It’s easy to make the iPod app still work with another app running in the foreground. The best news is that the software will reportedly allow for handsfree calling while using the GPS. I hope that is true.

Thanks for the link. I do already have an FM transmitter I use with my 5th gen iPod, but not sure if it's compatible with iPhone/touch. It's one of the older Kensington models. I'm waiting to see what new iPod touches come out next month and hope that they either include GPS or are compatible with the GPS receiver in the TomTom. Then it would be a question of whether a 3rd party FM transmitter accessory would provide enough power for both the iPod and the TomTom mount. The Kensington will charge my iPod while it's playing, but it charges very slowly, so it may not provide enough power for both devices.

Edit: Never mind. The TomTom doesn't have a dock pass through. I assumed that's how it supplied power and got it's audio out. From the links folks provided, it looks like mini-USB for power and a standard 3.5 minijack for audio out. Bummer. My Kengsinton transmitter works really well.
post #29 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

The TomTom application for iPhone appeared in the Australian and New Zealand Apple App Stores Sunday, with the software-only offering available at a U.S. price of $84.41.

Discovered by MacRumors, the application offers four separate maps for purchase: U.S. & Canada ($124.99 N.Z., $84.41 U.S.), Western Europe ($179.99 N.Z., $121.55 U.S.), Australia ($104.99 N.Z., $70.90 U.S.) and New Zealand ($119.99 N.Z., $81.03 U.S.). The software is separate from the hardware combo that will be offered by TomTom at a later date.

This isn't very clear to me. The above looks like the software and maps are sold separately, like you buy the software and then you buy your map package. On iTunes, it looks like the software and the map are bundled together. The prices on the US store are $99.99, $139.99, $79.99 and $94.99 respectively.

I'd like a good navigation app, but I really don't drive enough to make it worth buying one, I never did buy a GPS module, before iPhone, I would usually just print directions from Yahoo or Google and that served me well most of the time. Still, I'll keep it in mind if I ever do a road trip. If I would still have to buy the app separately, then I wouldn't be interested.
post #30 of 37
Hi,

I can see that there's no Middle East maps support listed for TomTom - I've searched all over the net and can't find any mention of any GPS system now (or coming) for the iphone with ME maps on it - does anyone know anything?

Thanks
post #31 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by DocNo42 View Post

Well, it's in the US iTunes Music Store:
http://itunes.apple.com/WebObjects/M...326075661&mt=8
$99
Ack....

I wonder if this is the official final version, because it is not announced on the TomTom website, that still says 'coming soon.' Why would they put it on iTunes and not announce it? It does say August 15th, so maybe they will officially announce it tomorrow (Monday, August 17) and just wanted to get it up on iTunes a little early. I don't know, but I don't think $99 is a lot, it's cheaper than the separate devices on their website.

If you read above I said last month it would likely cost between $90-120, so $99 fits nicely to me. If anyone complains about $99, how is that too much, what do you want - $60-70? You are getting full maps, 3d maps, 2d maps, and more. It's a one time purchase, no monthly plans unlike the ATT app. If you never want to buy another map, you don't have to buy. Don't know the price to update maps, but at most, pay to update the maps every 2-3 years should be enough.

Well, if $99 is too much, can always buy Navigon for $69 for a lesser app. And I never owned any navigation system, but TomTom seems to offer more and from what I've read they are better.
post #32 of 37
Too late, too late.... I'm just back from yet another road trip... I'll need gps again not earlier than in 6 months from now...
Don't see, though, why the application may need that cradle to work...

We mean Apple no harm.

People are lovers, basically. -- Engadget livebloggers at the iPad mini event.

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We mean Apple no harm.

People are lovers, basically. -- Engadget livebloggers at the iPad mini event.

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post #33 of 37
Just bought the TomTom App and I'm off to work. I'll let you know how it works. I doubt they'd release the software before the dock if the dock was really needed.... Its a 1.21GB App and taking the better part of 20min to download, perhaps the servers are slow right now
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post #34 of 37
I may be mistaken, but I think that the $99 US and $99 CDN prices for the app includes the "US & Canadian" maps.
post #35 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

Where did you lift that? I didn't find that on the post linked by the arrow after Abster's name.

Another thread that discussed possible pricing. Same thread he referenced with my quote.

"My 8th grade math teacher once said: "You can't help it if you're dumb, you are born that way. But stupid is self inflicted."" -Hiro. 

...sometimes it's both
Reply

"My 8th grade math teacher once said: "You can't help it if you're dumb, you are born that way. But stupid is self inflicted."" -Hiro. 

...sometimes it's both
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post #36 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tulkas View Post

Another thread that discussed possible pricing. Same thread he referenced with my quote.

I see where you got that from. It was in response to another post making fun of the "still to be announced pricing."
post #37 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by Abster2core View Post

I see where you got that from. It was in response to another post making fun of the "still to be announced pricing."

Yep, hence the use, by you and me, of the word 'rumoured'.

"My 8th grade math teacher once said: "You can't help it if you're dumb, you are born that way. But stupid is self inflicted."" -Hiro. 

...sometimes it's both
Reply

"My 8th grade math teacher once said: "You can't help it if you're dumb, you are born that way. But stupid is self inflicted."" -Hiro. 

...sometimes it's both
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