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An American in Taliban?! - Page 2

post #41 of 91
I think ZO did a great job giving insight into John's thinking. I really don't think he was with the Taliban because he thinks 6,000 people dying in the WTC was a wonderful thing; I think it was, as he said, because he wanted to see a "pure Islamic state." Now, the fact is, a lot of Muslims don't agree that the Taliban's vision of Islam is exactly "pure," but me not being a Muslim, I'll let Muslims sort it out among themselves.

Regarding the quote of him saying the WTC attack wasn't a bad thing, keep in mind that this response only came after he was pressed by the Newsweek reporter. He told the guy he didn't feel like discussing that stuff, because -- by his own admission -- he was too confused, tired, and not thinking straight. The reporter kept pressing (it says "when pressed for an answer" in the news stories, after all), and this is what John said. After already telling the reporter that he couldn't trust himself to answer any questions at that time.

I dunno . . . when I used to talk to this guy, he really was one of the most enlightened, intelligent, and amazingly perceptive people I've known. I half understand and half don't understand how it came to this. I understand it because I can definitely see him finding a cause, committing himself totally to it, and wanting to cut past the image, the hearsay, the rumors, and the misrepresentation, to get to the truth. But I just can't see him approving of any belief that sees women as inferior, or sees killing innocent people as justified. Being opposed to US policies and laws -- sure, definitely. That's pretty commonplace among 20-year-olds anyway. But carried to this extreme . . . I dunno.

I'm pretty confused on this one. It's just that . . . something seems weird about it all. This just doesn't seem quite like him.

But hey, what do I know. I just knew him from IRC. Yeah, on a daily basis, over the course of a couple of years, but still -- it's just IRC . . .
post #42 of 91
ZO study history, then reply. America had nothing to do with the death of Incan, or Mayan empires for starters. We do have a great burden of being so terrible to North American natives, it's true. So I suppose if we're guilty of one sin, we're guilty of them all. Hey, if you want us to bear the burden of all the world's wrongs, be my guest. we can take it better than others I imagine. We'll even accept the Belgian/Boer role in Africa's turbulent history in the last three centuries. I'm sure others already see it this way. As I've said in other threads, no one is innocent. It does not change any of this. That argument is a circular one, it gets us nowhere, changes nothing.

As an American, I can say with great confidence that many if not most Americans do NOT simply try to pigeon-hole others into convenient groups like, say "Americans" in your connotation of the word. indeed, pretty much all of the people I know do not give the evil eye to an Afgahni or Palestinian or whomever on the street. We like to see people as individuals first. I suggest you try to learn this yourself before judging in such a way.

Alas, your bigotry is apparent. Please don't condemn us as anything you look to be yourself. I realize life is easier for those lazy enough to pigeon-hole others into facile and convenient "types" but you won't be a better person, nor will you get far in life by this at least if there is any justice. Of course, if you don't plan on going anywhere, I suppose you can blame us rich fat lazy Americans if it makes you feel better.
post #43 of 91
My dad works at a law firm in San Francisco and one of his good friends agreed to represent the kid in court. He didn't tell the law firm that he was doing so and now a whole bunch of lawyers in the New York branch are threatening to quite over it. I personally think the kid deserves a good defense. I do not believe that he had an mal-intentions against the United States but instead just got caught up in something that he was not prepared for. I mean he goes to Afghanistan as a humanitarian worker, falls in love with the culture and its people, and next thing he knows there are commandoes up his ass. But treason is treason, so I say give him the fair trial and let his sit in prison for a year or two and think about what he has done. Remember that he probably thought that he was simply fighting the Northern Alliance who truth be told are a bunch of drug growing warlords.
post #44 of 91
[quote]Originally posted by solo:
<strong>I do not believe that he had an mal-intentions against the United States but instead just got caught up in something that he was not prepared for. I mean he goes to Afghanistan as a humanitarian worker,</strong><hr></blockquote>

Humanitarian worker? I haven't read that. The whole story hasn't come out yet so maybe it's true. But considering he was "educated" in a Pakistani madrassa I can't only think that he knew why he was going to Afghanistan.


[quote]Originally posted by solo:
<strong>falls in love with the culture and its people, and next thing he knows there are commandoes up his ass.</strong><hr></blockquote>

What I read was that he found himself in Kabul and didn't speak the local language. So they told him to go join the Taliban and/or Al Qaeda. He supported the attack on the Cole and was at the training camp several times when bin Laden was there. So he knew what he was getting into. He wasn't just grabbed off the street.

[quote]Originally posted by solo:
<strong>But treason is treason, so I say give him the fair trial and let his sit in prison for a year or two and think about what he has done. Remember that he probably thought that he was simply fighting the Northern Alliance who truth be told are a bunch of drug growing warlords.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Yea but they're better than the other growing warlords.
post #45 of 91
WSJ? Why does it have to be so good? I'll quote the best part up top here.

"When he was only 17 they deemed him mature enough to don turban and robes and take a voyage to Yemen. Now that he's 20 and has arrived at the Taliban terminus of his personal journey, suddenly he's too young to know his own mind."

<a href="http://www.opinionjournal.com/columnists/cRosett/?id=95001558" target="_blank">Johnnie Walker on the Rocks</a>
In Marin County, Calif., treason is just another alternative lifestyle.
BY CLAUDIA ROSETT
Thursday, December 6, 2001 12:01 a.m. EST

Were the story of John Walker Lindh not so horribly real, it could play as a parody of our times. Mr. Walker, a 20-year-old American, goes to war in Afghanistan. Except he fights not for America, but against us, on the side of Osama bin Laden and the Taliban. By the time he's captured, AK-47 in hand, Mr. Walker is filthy, wounded and famished, but to a persistent reporter from Newsweek he manages to gasp out his support for the Islamic terrorist attacks that, out of a clear blue sky, killed more than 3,000 Americans on Sept. 11.

Which sounds bad. But hey, dude, John--aÂ*kÂ*a "Sulayman," aÂ*kÂ*a "Abdul Hamid"--is from Marin County, Calif., a place where it is, like, totally uncool to make value judgments.

From Marin, the young Mr. Walker's parents spot him on the TV news and hustle to share with the world the alternative reality that shaped this self-described jihadi in the first place. Their son John is a spiritual, questing guy, we are told, a pacifist at heart, young and maybe susceptible to brainwashing. John's mother, Marilyn Walker, tells the press that her son is just a "sweet, shy kid," "totally not streetwise," a peaceful, scholarly type who wanted to help poor people. His father, Frank Lindh, announces that John "is a really good boy" even if he does deserve "a little kick in the butt for not telling me what he was up to."

A Marin musician, Neil Lavin, tells the Associated Press that Mr. Walker was in Afghanistan on a spiritual quest, quite possibly a rewarding one: "I imagine he lost himself there. Or found himself." A family friend, Bill Jones, tells the San Francisco Chronicle that fighting for bin Laden was just "a youthful indiscretion."

Even outside Marin, a lot of folks just don't seem to get it. In one account after another, there is the same perplexed tone: How could it happen that John Walker Lindh, the second of three children reared by broad-minded parents in the emotionally supportive 1990s, in a 3,000-sqare-foot home in one of the wealthiest enclaves on the California coast, ended up questing away with an assault weapon on the enemy side in Afghanistan? Newsweek quotes Mr. Lindh, his father, as saying, "I can't connect the dots between where John was and where John is." The magazine concludes: "Neither, it seems, can the rest of the world."



Oh really? The dots we've seen so far--especially in Newsweek and on CNN--invite some definite connecting.

What jumps out is a sorry sketch of the real world colliding with American culture at its most neurotically all-validating no-fault New Age nadir of nattering nonsense. No where in the nation could this particular picture have more naturally taken shape than in that Mecca of moral muddling, Marin County--a place salted with rich aging radicals of the 1960s, long on dollars but still short on sense. Recite the publicly known details of John Walker's life, and you have a narrative in which every authority figure in sight was so busy validating John and his alternative ways that no one stepped in soon enough to save him, or stop him.

And what he ended up doing, as reported so far, does not sound good. To venture a word that on the evidence seems to have gone missing from the Marin vocabulary (except when invoked to mean "good"), it sounds bad. American authorities now face the job of deciding whether Mr. Walker deserves to be tried for treason, which can carry a death penalty.

By his own account, Mr. Walker went to Afghanistan six months ago and trained for combat at a camp for supporters of Osama bin Laden. He fought with Taliban-linked Pakistanis against India, in Kashmir--a place riven for the past 10 years by terrorist violence and kidnappings. He then returned to Afghanistan to fight on the side of the Taliban against Americans and the Northern Alliance. Mr. Walker was captured among the al Qaeda and Taliban fighters who began the ferocious prison riot that killed a CIA agent, David Spann--a man who gave his life for the country John Walker betrayed.



But hey, give old Abdul Hamid a chance. Named originally for John Lennon, John Walker was raised in an atmosphere so swamped with tolerance it's small wonder he began to drown. His parents are now going through what they describe as an amicable divorce. His father is a Catholic. His mother dabbles in Buddhism, which according to Newsweek she credits for exposing John to a philosophy "very inclusive of all people" and imbued with a "sense of social justice."

John spent only a few months at a regular high school before transferring to the "alternative" Tamiscal High School, a place for artistic types specializing in independent study that, according to the school's Web site "works differently in many ways." Students are left to pilot their own journeys of self-discovery, while checking in with teachers once a week. At age 16, John read "The Autobiography of Malcolm X," and in it found himself yet another alternative--he converted to Islam.

In keeping with Islamic laws, Mr. Walker grew a beard and began praying regularly at a local mosque. He took to wearing Islamic robes and a turban, while his parents gushed over what they are still lauding as his "alternative course." He graduated early from the flexible Tamiscal High, and at 17, with his parents' blessing, he went to Yemen to study Arabic. He came back to California, briefly, but in February 2000 he returned to Yemen. Newsweek reports: "It was during John's second trip to Yemen, says his father, that he became aware that John had friends who had been to Chechnya to fight with Muslim rebels against the Russian army. One friend had been killed in the fighting."

Last October, John and his father had what Mr. Lindh described to CNN's Larry King as "a little father/son debate, much like my dad and I used to have over the Vietnam war" (was the young Mr. Lindh consorting with combat-ready Viet Cong?). Mr. Lindh was upset that the American sailors killed in the terrorist bombing of the USS Cole in the Yemeni port of Aden were the same age as John. John e-mailed him back that the terrorist bombing was justified.

Mr. Lindh concluded, reports Newsweek, that "My days of molding him were over." But the days of funding him went right on. When John moved to Pakistan, enrolled in a madrassa near the Afghan border and asked his dad for money, Mr. Lindh wired $1,200. John told his parents he was heading "somewhere cooler" for a while and disappeared into Afghanistan. Cool, huh?



And here we all are, in the midst of a real war with American lives on the line. And there are Mr. Lindh and Ms. Walker, who say they were horrified by Sept. 11, pleading for mercy for their son who joined the enemy. And they still don't get it. Mr. Lindh, who tells the world, "I'm proud of John," insists "there's no indication he's done anything wrong." In the world they inhabit, could John ever do anything wrong? When he was only 17 they deemed him mature enough to don turban and robes and take a voyage to Yemen. Now that he's 20 and has arrived at the Taliban terminus of his personal journey, suddenly he's too young to know his own mind. But through it all, says his father, "he found this other spiritual path, and I have always supported that."

It's painful to watch. It's tragic. But that doesn't make it all right. Somewhere between the kid in Marin with a book and the man in Afghanistan with a gun, there's a line that has been crossed. Connect the dots and you'll see it.

Ms. Rosett is a member of The Wall Street Journal's editorial board. Her column appears Thursdays on OpinionJournal.com and in The Wall Street Journal Europe as "Letter From America."
post #46 of 91
jesus christ.. it was an example people. I KNOW the USA had nothing to do with killing the Mayas... I was trying to show a possible way that John had gotten so involved with something like the Taliban.

Its useless to argue with Scott H becasue he will never ever change his opinion. We all have out opinions and there is nothing that can be done about that.

I am a person that does not like to jump to conclusions and label things 'good' or 'bad' and that is why, no matter how evil (in our perspective) a person can seem, I try and look at where s/he is coming from and TRY to understand.

You must understand that we do NOT all think alike or have the same way of thinking. Thank god.

John thought only of Islam and the beauty of it. He then was in a place where you could not get ANY OTHER VIEW but that of Islam and the extremist views. Do you understand that? Can you try and put yourself in his position? Pretend (this is dumb, I know) that you are an extreme Mac user and love Apple, etc. You study it and use it for your whole life and you finally get an opportunity to go to MWNY and when you get there, you are surrounded by other fanatical Mac users. You are in heaven. While you are there you will find people that are more or less extreme... and depending with whom you speak, you will be very likely persuaded in one way or another.

This analogy is to compare the state of mind... not the situation. Heck, many people compare Mac fanaticism to a religion.. so why not?


(I can't wait to get dissed yet again... ah well... can't bend down just because I have my own views)
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post #47 of 91
[quote]Originally posted by ZO:
<strong>I am a person that does not like to jump to conclusions and label things 'good' or 'bad' and that is why, no matter how evil (in our perspective) a person can seem, I try and look at where s/he is coming from and TRY to understand.</strong><hr></blockquote>

post #48 of 91
I guess, ZO, that any crime can and should be forgiven as long as we can understand how the perpetrator arrived at the mindset that made the act seem OK to him.
post #49 of 91
ZO,

That article painted a picture of a kid that had a real similar view as you. He was very permissive in his thinking and upbringing, and it appears that he also tried to see the other sides view. But unlike you he went out and committed treason against his country and committed or at least condoned terrorist acts against the same said contry. I can see how you would defend him, but I do not agree with your defence. The guy is a traitor and I beleive he has earned the death penalty unless it can be proven that he was otherwise innocent.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #50 of 91
The guy may just get off with a hand slap though. Anyone remember what Jane Fonda did during Vietnam? If you do not know, she deserves to be prosecuted as well for her traitorous actions. Read <a href="http://www.snopes2.com/inboxer/outrage/fonda.htm" target="_blank">here</a> for more on this.

As far as I know she has not been tried for her actions, but she should be. And people wonder why some feel it is ok to be a traitor to ones nation so long as you believe in what you are doing. We let one off, what's another one now? Is her actions less because of time? I don't think so.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #51 of 91
Some more on what went on in that prison. Look <a href="http://www.msnbc.com/news/668588.asp" target="_blank">HERE</a>.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #52 of 91
[quote]Originally posted by NoahJ:
<strong>Some more on what went on in that prison. Look <a href="http://www.msnbc.com/news/668588.asp" target="_blank">HERE</a>.</strong><hr></blockquote>

OOOOOO! ya, that guy is guilty. I had no idea that he took part in the killing of CIA agent nor that he had seen an American soldier before we has captured.
post #53 of 91
Doesn't it seem (from that article on MSNBC) that this guy had every chance to say to the CIA dudes "Get me the hell out of here, I'm an American and I've been shanghai'd by these crazy terrorists! I had no idea what I was getting into, and I want my mommy. I miss Starbucks and I miss the cute girls back home!"
post #54 of 91
[quote]Originally posted by NoahJ:
<strong>Some more on what went on in that prison. Look <a href="http://www.msnbc.com/news/668588.asp" target="_blank">HERE</a>.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Holy crap that puts him RIGHT THERE. When I read that they interviewed him I though, "Crap. Now they can't use any of it in court." I'm glad he didn't answer any questions.

If this is true they have to charge this guy with treason and murder at the very least.
post #55 of 91
like i said before, the kid is guilty of treason. it's a real crime.

it bothers me that people have become so permissive as to think that crap like this is "cute".

although, i should say that i don't think they should bring him home. leave him in a middle eastern prison. preferably one in pakistan. i'm sure he'll make lots of new friends there.
post #56 of 91
whatever people... I guess I'll be the next terrorist because I more relaxed about life and don't take things so damn seriously all the time. Life goes on...

adios
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post #57 of 91
the article is pretty good... gives insight to the last few moments.

But John didnt do ANYTHING... at least not that we know of. He just kneeled and didn't talk.

Ah well..
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post #58 of 91
Maybe we are being too hard on John. Who among us hasn't taken up arms in a radical foreign militia? When I was back packing in Europe I got mixed up with the Basque country fighters. They gave me military training and I spent several months fighting. You know? One of those crazy things you do when your a kid.


Maybe they should offer to send John to India. See what they do with him
post #59 of 91
[quote]Originally posted by ZO:
<strong>the article is pretty good... gives insight to the last few moments.

But John didnt do ANYTHING... at least not that we know of. He just kneeled and didn't talk.

Ah well..</strong><hr></blockquote>

Here's what he did because you don't seem to get it. He was with the people that killed the CIA agent. Treason may be the only crime where guilty by association is allowed. We don't know the time line but it seems like right after the CIA guys got done with him. If he said something to his Muslim brothers that got that CIA guy killed that is treason and murder.

As we learn more we see that he was deeply involved with Al Qaeda and in direct contact with the people that killed on of our guys. That's enough for me.
post #60 of 91
[quote]Originally posted by ZO:
<strong>whatever people... I guess I'll be the next terrorist because I more relaxed about life and don't take things so damn seriously all the time. Life goes on...

adios</strong><hr></blockquote>

Zo, I don't think anyone was saying you'll be the next terrorist. But doesn't it seem like at least SOME things deserve to be taken "so damn seriously?"
post #61 of 91
In life we have many choices. Some we make because they are what we want. Some we make because it is expected. Some we make because of our feelings. Many times we make these choices without thinking of the consequences to ourselves or others. When we are young consequences and responsibility for those choices are not as high a priority (or we haven't been schooled by life to expect someone holding us responsible yet). He made a choice and he is young and didn't take into account consequences. He will be held responsible for his choices and that is proper and part of life. Unfortunately the consequences and the responsibility will probably be a trial for treason with the distinct possibility that he will be found guilty and executed. It is truly unfortunate that American culture prior to 9/11/01 didn't teach him these lessons while much younger and before he made the choice to become a traitor.
It IS as bad as you think, and they ARE out to get you.
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post #62 of 91
OK... I agree that 'some things' SHOULD be taken seriously, but that one shouldn't automatically see that John is evil right off the bat.

Scott, I wouldn't expect you to be sympathize with Basque terrorits (or freedom fighters depending which way you are looking at it from) just because you went hiking there. But imagine if you had gone there to study their culture and had already prepared yourself beforehand studying... and finally went there and were predisposed to take in their point of view... and who knows, really sympathize with them. I believe that that is pretty much what happened with John.

I DO NOT support John for being a Taliban/Al-Qeda militant... but I cannot also blame him for believing in something so firmly that he was willing to die (or at least fight) for it.

ac2c... why do you say he decided to be a traitor? Did he actually go to Afganistan to train to be a terrorist so as to strike back at his motherland? Im not saying that I exclude this, but do you really think this was his intention? Or did he get caught up in somthing that overwhelmed him and is convineint for us to call 'traitorous' for. He went to Yemen to study... and got caught up in something that anyone at his age could easily fall into.

Americans are brought up (brain-washed) to love and think that the USA is bar-none the best and number one in everything... and when reality is not that way sometimes, Americans will just pretend not to hear. I know... thats how I was brought up by the 'system' and managed to shake it off by being away from it for a while now. Maybe John was already skeptic of the USA and by going in Yemen and Pakistan his personal views got twisted into something more sinister and resulted into him becoming a fighter.

Was his anger a result of American policy towards a culture he loved or was it just him who is/was meesed up/brain washed... or a bit of both?

Time will tell.
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post #63 of 91
No I don't think that he went there to become a terrorist. I think he went there with all good intentions. He did, however, make the choice to train as a terrorist after he was there. Did he expect to be pitted against the US when he did this? Probably not.. He did make the choice. After attending terrorist training, where rhetoric and specific training against the US is a daily thing. He made the choice to continue to train. When the terrorist and Afghanistan came under attack he continued to serve in a combat unit knowing that it was America behind the attack and that there was a possibility that he would meet American soldiers in combat. He made the choice to stay. When he was captured and given the opportunity to talk to the CIA, he made the choice to refuse. The possibility is that he knew of the plan to attack the guards and revolt. If he did, he chose not to tell the CIA agent about it. This resulted directly in the death of that agent and many deaths on both sides. (I am not saying that he did know, but the possibility is high that he did.) All of these choices were directed to denying America, helping others to attack America and personally takeing up arms against America. Those are choices that he made to BE a traitor. The choice has consequences and he will be held responsible. If he had been older with more experience he may not have made the same decisions. But he is not, he did not and he will now learn that yes he will be held responsible.
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post #64 of 91
Some great points and discussion here guys.

Here's the way I see John's issue here. My Dad brought up the point that we haven't declared war on the Taliban formally...we haven't declared formal war since 1941. So technically Vietnam and Korea, etc. were not official wars.

This guy can be tried for treason if he "adhered to an enemy" of the United States. The Taliban is a very clear enemy of the United States, and, I think it will be quickly discovered that John did adhere to the Taliban recently.

However, John could make the point that he did not know the US was an enemy of the Taliban until it was too late and the US was landing ground troops. It would be very easy for him to say that he was not able to defect or leave the Taliban army without getting shot by the Talibanis when he left or getting shot by the Northern Alliance when he said he was a defecting Talibani. If he makes this point and proves it, along with the fact that he did not partake an active role in the prisoner uprising, I believe he should be let off from treason.

I kind of doubt John will announce that he wasn't able to defect easily. He was shown on a video clip tonight being questioned by American CIA agent Spann before the uprising occured and Spann was killed. It could be said that at the point of being questioned, John could have announced he was American and wished to defect because he wasn't able to safely before. But he didn't, and instead remained silent.

So either:

A. John claims he had no chance to defect and somehow video clip does not apply, and John was just hiding with his hands over his head while he waited for a Marine to get him out of there.

B. John was insane, phsycologists back him up.

C. He admits to having sided with the Taliban--a US enemy, and made no attempt to defect when he had the chance after realizing he could be commiting treason.

So now we just wait and see how it all goes in court. There is no way this guy should be denied good lawyers and fair court, for all we know he got lost in Afghanistan and was gagged by Al Quaeda, drugged and brainwashed.
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post #65 of 91
Taliban John can perform a real service to the United States (even though the USA is no longer his country).

He can be executed live on CNN. That way, the coming generation can see that treason IS a crime and that it will not be tolerated.

The United States has enemies out there, after Sept 11, everyone (except people in parts of CA) knows that.

If'n you ain't with us, you agin' us. Case closed. He's lost his citizenship as a result of his actions. Turn the Military Tribunal Crank and wax him.

You liberals make the absurdly simple so masturbulatoraly complicated....

Aries 1B
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post #66 of 91
well said ac2c and MacAddict. I think that what you said is a more level headed approach rather than the initial, knee jerk "he has to die, traitorous pig" approach that was taken by some.

He joined the Taliban and decided to fight with them when the Northern Alliance was the only enemy around. As far as he saw, during the whole conflict, he only faught against Northern Alliance troops... never a single American. He was, on the other hand, being bombed by B-52s and never, even if he wanted to, have the opportunity to fight our own troops. Doesnt the fact that Taliban troops reported getting shot at by Al-Qaeda regulars for even thinking of giving up have a factor in this? He didnt seem to have many options whether he wanted to fight or not.

He may have never appealed for pardon or sympathised with the USA... but its al,ost sure as hell true that he never actually faught against American forces.

Or am I totally off? What do you think?
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post #67 of 91
[quote]Originally posted by ZO:
<strong>
Its useless to argue with Scott H becasue he will never ever change his opinion. We all have out opinions and there is nothing that can be done about that.</strong><hr></blockquote>

That WSJ article that Scott quoted described this father-son exchange:

[quote]... Mr. Lindh was upset that the American sailors killed in the terrorist bombing of the USS Cole in the Yemeni port of Aden were the same age as John. John e-mailed him back that the terrorist bombing was justified... <hr></blockquote>

This isn't a matter of differing opinions or jumping to conclusions. According to the guy's father he thought that the bombing of the Cole was justified. The burden of proof rests heavily on the other side of this argument. I don't care if he was only getting one point of view. You inadvertently slander Islam by saying he thought only of Islam and the beauty of it. A death pyre in south Manhattan has something to do with the beauty of Islam?

[ 12-08-2001: Message edited by: roger_ramjet ]</p>
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post #68 of 91
This guy was not Taliban he was Al Qaeda. He fought in Kashmere as well as Afghanistan. So he didn't join up just to fight the NA.

Why do people try to marginalize this guys involvement? He trained in Al Qaeda, he fought in Kashmere, he fought in Afghanistan and then he was right there when the CIA guy got killed. They later found him with and ak47 in his hands. He's deeply involved in all of these things through his own free will. Youthful indiscretion cannot be used to excuse all that.
post #69 of 91
You're right that he can't make his excuse that he was young and just got caught up in things he didn't know about. It looks pretty clear that he knew what he was doing. Still, it needs to be investigated first.
*Registered March 1, 1999*
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*Registered March 1, 1999*
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post #70 of 91
And even more on JWL, the american Traitor. <a href="http://www.washingtontimes.com/national/20011212-85319822.htm" target="_blank">http://www.washingtontimes.com/national/20011212-85319822.htm</a>

I hope they don't just let him off the hook for cooperation.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #71 of 91
Interesting. I hope none of this "aid" he's giving is getting in the way of his prosecution. Anything you say will be used against you in a court of law. No doubt he'll claim he was denied his rights.
post #72 of 91
Here's what's going to happen:

1) We're going to bring this punk back home and throw him in a federal "prison"
2) Celebrity liberals will protest and whine and whine and whine for his released. Campuses across the nation will feature even more whining for those of John Walker's ilk.
3) He will finally be released without a scratch and having served less time than a jaywalker.
4) These cause-head douchebag fundies and most Europeans will continue to act as if the U.S. is the rapist of the world.

And Zo, don't make me ****ing laugh with your assertion that you aren't quick to label things. You see the letters "US" together in capitals and you start looking for evil like some backward McCarthyist.
proud resident of a failed state
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proud resident of a failed state
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post #73 of 91
Thread Starter 
[quote]Originally posted by MacAddict:
<strong>So either:

A. John claims he had no chance to defect and somehow video clip does not apply, and John was just hiding with his hands over his head while he waited for a Marine to get him out of there.

B. John was insane, phsycologists back him up.

C. He admits to having sided with the Taliban--a US enemy, and made no attempt to defect when he had the chance after realizing he could be commiting treason.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Don't forget:

D. The book/movie deal... <img src="graemlins/hmmm.gif" border="0" alt="[Hmmm]" />
I AM THE Royal Pain in the Ass.
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I AM THE Royal Pain in the Ass.
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post #74 of 91
[quote]The Taliban is a very clear enemy of the
United States.<hr></blockquote>

It is a wild stretch to consider that his motivation to go to Afghanistan and join the Taliban could be regarded as treason since the Taliban has never been considered an enemy of the US until 9-11. His treasonous status came about by the actions of others.
Why of course the people don't want war ... But after all it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a...
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Why of course the people don't want war ... But after all it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a...
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post #75 of 91
[quote]Originally posted by Samantha Joanne Ollendale:
<strong>
It is a wild stretch to consider that his motivation to go to Afghanistan and join the Taliban could be regarded as treason since the Taliban has never been considered an enemy of the US until 9-11. His treasonous status came about by the actions of others.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I was wondering Samantha: are you married? You sound like you wouldn't expect much from a man. He could cheat on you in your own bed and you would pretend to not see it.

JWL was captured with Taliban fighters. It's probable that there were al Qaeda present as well. Al Qaeda was involved in the killing of Americans prior to 9-11. He even told his father that the attack on the Cole was justified. And after 9-11 the Taliban clearly took al Qaeda's side against us. JWL didn't have a problem with this. He wasn't caught until a couple of months later. His treasonous status came about by his own actions.
shooby doo, shooby doo
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shooby doo, shooby doo
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post #76 of 91
[quote]It is a wild stretch to consider that his motivation to go to Afghanistan and join the Taliban could be regarded as treason since the Taliban has never been considered an enemy of the US until 9-11. His treasonous status came about by the actions of others.<hr></blockquote>

The Taliban has never been on friendly terms with the United States. We have been pushing them to extradite bin Laden for years and we never recognized them as the official government of Afghanistan.

Also, he trained with Al Qaeda in Al Qaeda camps, which has been an enemy of the U.S. since the mid-1990s (if not earlier). Al Qaeda was responsible for over 30 American soldiers' deaths before 9/11.

If I were to go train with Hamas, would it be illogical to consider me an enemy to Israel?
proud resident of a failed state
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proud resident of a failed state
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post #77 of 91
[quote]Originally posted by roger_ramjet:
<strong> I was wondering Samantha: are you married? You sound like you wouldn't expect much from a man.</strong><hr></blockquote> :eek:
post #78 of 91
That almost sounds like I'm proposing doesn't it?
shooby doo, shooby doo
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shooby doo, shooby doo
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post #79 of 91
[quote]The Taliban has never been on friendly terms with the United States.<hr></blockquote>

I said in my post that the Taliban had not been considered an enemy of the United States until 9-11. There is a very discernible difference between "an enemy" and being "not on friendly terms". Naturally we haven't been on overtly "friendly terms" as that would have been very bad PR; tactful silence was more the policy. About the only unfriendly gesture exhibited by the U.S. towards the Taliban prior to 9-11 was not to recognize their "government" (!) and not to staff the US embassy in Kabul. Also, there has been barely a peep from either the Clinton or Bush administrations re. the horrendous human rights abuses and the treatment of women in Afghanistan; awareness of this ghastly situation was raised mostly on internet newsletters and mass mailings. The official comment right up until 9-11 has always been 'no comment'. But human rights issues overseas has never been a concern of ours, that is what makes this current media hoopla and crocodile-tears exhibition of phoney human rights concerns such an outright farce. Then there is that issue of that $43 million for opium eradication (and that is not some fairytale conceived by Robert Scheer and trendy liberals; that deal was brokered via the U.N., with U.S. approval). Then there is the wholesale arming and funding of Islamic extremists via the CIA ($$billions) out of which the Taliban emerged. I have never said that the U.S. has been on "best buddies" terms with the Taliban...but an enemy? That is a big stretch.

[quote]We have been pushing them to extradite bin Laden for years and we never recognized them as the official government of Afghanistan.<hr></blockquote>

When the U.S. has a small but pesky enemy, or an enemy hosted by a 'rogue' nation, a common response of ours is to go in with bombs and air raids and (try to) nip it in the bud, such as what happened with Libya, or Granada, or Panama, etc. Extradition? puhhlease! Soft-soaping hardened terrorists is not the way the U.S. goes about its business. If al Qaeda was considered that great an enemy then there would have been a concerted effort to eradicate them. The Clinton administration had ample opportunity to get bin Laden, specially in Sudan, and they either blew it, or weren't that bothered.

[quote]Also, he trained with Al Qaeda in Al Qaeda camps, which has been an enemy of the U.S. since the mid-1990s (if not earlier).<hr></blockquote>

Many of those camps are in Saudi Arabia as well as Afghanistan. Bin Laden's greatest support comes from that nation, both financially and in personnel. Perhaps we are we more concerned with not offending the corrupt Saudi monarchy than in protecting the U.S people against further attacks?

[quote]Al Qaeda was responsible for over 30 American soldiers' deaths before 9/11. If I were to go train with Hamas, would it be illogical to consider me an enemy to Israel?<hr></blockquote>

Yes absolutely. It is all so uncomfortably inconsistent. Where was the response to the Cole attacks? Was that not also an unwarranted attack on American lives and property, an act of war?

[ 12-13-2001: Message edited by: Samantha Joanne Ollendale ]</p>
Why of course the people don't want war ... But after all it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a...
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Why of course the people don't want war ... But after all it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a...
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post #80 of 91
[quote]I was wondering Samantha: are you married? You sound like you wouldn't expect much from a man. He could cheat on you in your own bed and you would pretend to not see it.<hr></blockquote>

Whether or not I am married is irrelevant to the topic.

In a relationship, I very much appreciate being appreciated, but I don't expect anything from a man; expectation is a prison with very high walls, surrounded by minefields and armed guards. When a man in my life does something positive/good/ worthwhile, more especially when unexpected then that is when some magic and sparkle is allowed to escape the bonds of routine, (or expectation).

Re. men in world affairs, I cannot help but have expectations; my pragmatism and cynicism have tainted me. The nature of people who get into positions of power and leadership, and their corruptability is little to be optimistic about.It is mostly men who assume positions of power in politics and government, and most of them make a dog's dinner of it. If there were more balance between the yang/yin, masculine/feminine, etc in running the world, and less prevalence of machismo yahooism, and patriarchy...maybe there would be less opportunity for the likes of bin Laden (and a multitude of other rogues) to get where they are.
I have nothing against men, (far from it!) but I do have issues with men who behave like jerks, and foul things up for all.

Real men don't use violence.
Why of course the people don't want war ... But after all it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a...
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Why of course the people don't want war ... But after all it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a...
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