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Ted Kennedy dead tonight. - Page 4

post #121 of 185
8/29/09 at 4:48pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

This from a rabid "anti-birther".

I've got an extra tinfoil hat here if you need one.

"Rabid anti-birther"? Is that what we're calling "not subject to delusional fantasy" now?

I think this should be expanded on. We need to watch out for "enraged unicorn deniers", "irrational death ray skeptics" and "hysterical my dog is telling me to kill people disobeyers."

On topic, and again, there's at least as little evidence for Kennedy's citizenship as Obama's, so it needs to be bellowed about.
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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post #122 of 185
8/29/09 at 6:44pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox View Post

"Rabid anti-birther"? Is that what we're calling "not subject to delusional fantasy" now?

I think this should be expanded on. We need to watch out for "enraged unicorn deniers", "irrational death ray skeptics" and "hysterical my dog is telling me to kill people disobeyers."

On topic, and again, there's at least as little evidence for Kennedy's citizenship as Obama's, so it needs to be bellowed about.

"anti-Mega-shark vs Giant Octopus"
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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post #123 of 185
8/29/09 at 7:00pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

Look at what you're doing right now. How does that relate to the death of Ted Kennedy?

If you ask me this is a microcosmic example of why the right is so unpopular with the voters right now.

They take anything and turn it into a platform for political potshots. Why those factions of the right can't see this is beyond me.

How do your comments relate to the death of Ted Kennedy?

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #124 of 185
8/29/09 at 7:00pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by midwinter View Post

"anti-Mega-shark vs Giant Octopus"

I saw that one. Classic.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #125 of 185
8/30/09 at 8:30am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

How do your comments relate to the death of Ted Kennedy?

I knew you were going to resort to that schoolyard response.

My comment was designed to do two things. Wake you up and get the thread back on track. I guess I was talking to the wrong person for that.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #126 of 185
8/30/09 at 9:34am


Slow news week eh?
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Most of us employ the Internet not to seek the best information, but rather to select information that confirms our prejudices. - Nicholas D. Kristof
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post #127 of 185
8/30/09 at 9:39am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by franksargent View Post

Naïve



Do your own research. In other words: Homey don't play that.

Leading questions just leads itself into more leading questions, an endless cycle, or so it would appear. \

I have done my own research. I have posted my thoughts, but not many of them. Honestly I was not overly broken up by the death of Senator Kennedy. I had hoped to find out why, besides the fact that he had been a political fixture for decades, people were so enamoured with him. If you don't want to post then that is your decision. Of you don't like how the thread is structured, make one you like better or liven the coversation. I am trying to gently direct the coversation to some semblance of on topic.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #128 of 185
8/30/09 at 10:33am
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

I have done my own research. I have posted my thoughts, but not many of them. Honestly I was not overly broken up by the death of Senator Kennedy. I had hoped to find out why, besides the fact that he had been a political fixture for decades, people were so enamoured with him. If you don't want to post then that is your decision. Of you don't like how the thread is structured, make one you like better or liven the coversation. I am trying to gently direct the coversation to some semblance of on topic.

The people most "enamoured with him" are highly unlikely to be part of the PO community.

You know, the historically disadvantaged and the poor.

In other words, your asking the wrong group of people to answer your nonstop string of questions. We all are in an Apple forum after all.

Now I could run around for you digging up answers to all your nonstop questions.

I could dig up dozens and dozens of objective links and objective data I find to answer all your nonstop questions.

I could go dig up and give you a list of books to read about the man written by academic historians and scholars who are subject matter experts in their fields of expertise.

I could dig up Teddy himself.

But why should I? \
Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!
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Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!
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post #129 of 185
8/30/09 at 11:14am
Quote:
Originally Posted by franksargent View Post

The people most "enamoured with him" are highly unlikely to be part of the PO community.

You know, the historically disadvantaged and the poor.

In other words, your asking the wrong group of people to answer your nonstop string of questions. We all are in an Apple forum after all.

Now I could run around for you digging up answers to all your nonstop questions.

I could dig up dozens and dozens of objective links and objective data I find to answer all your nonstop questions.

I could go dig up and give you a list of books to read about the man written by academic historians and scholars who are subject matter experts in their fields of expertise.

I could dig up Teddy himself.

But why should I? \

Exactly.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #130 of 185
8/30/09 at 1:01pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

I knew you were going to resort to that schoolyard response.

My comment was designed to do two things. Wake you up and get the thread back on track. I guess I was talking to the wrong person for that.

And I knew you were going to dismiss my question, because for some reason a whole different set of standards applies to me than to you.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #131 of 185
8/30/09 at 1:51pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by franksargent View Post

The people most "enamoured with him" are highly unlikely to be part of the PO community.

You know, the historically disadvantaged and the poor.

In other words, your asking the wrong group of people to answer your nonstop string of questions. We all are in an Apple forum after all.

Now I could run around for you digging up answers to all your nonstop questions.

I could dig up dozens and dozens of objective links and objective data I find to answer all your nonstop questions.

I could go dig up and give you a list of books to read about the man written by academic historians and scholars who are subject matter experts in their fields of expertise.

I could dig up Teddy himself.

But why should I? \

You COULD add to the discussion, or not. That is up to you. This is not a prison cell where you are trapped and have to respond. If you have anything to add feel free. Why cry out against the injustice of all my horrible questions?
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #132 of 185
8/30/09 at 2:21pm
Thread Starter 
Edward M Kennedy Serve America Act

This is an interesting tidbit I was actually not aware of. As a child I did a summer youth employment program. I was able to make money to pay for things I wanted, and to get job experience. It was both fun, and hard work. Sometime more hard work than fun but overall a positive experience. Anyone have any experience with this program, or have they not really got it rolling yet?

I would be interested to get my children involved if it is anything like what I did when I was younger. I would call that another positive thing he got accomplished if it is what I believe it is.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #133 of 185
8/30/09 at 2:55pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

Edward M Kennedy Serve America Act

This is an interesting tidbit I was actually not aware of. As a child I did a summer youth employment program. I was able to make money to pay for things I wanted, and to get job experience. It was both fun, and hard work. Sometime more hard work than fun but overall a positive experience. Anyone have any experience with this program, or have they not really got it rolling yet?

I would be interested to get my children involved if it is anything like what I did when I was younger. I would call that another positive thing he got accomplished if it is what I believe it is.

A level headed review by AJ!- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=deuju_8FOWo

Warning: You may want to punch your monitor!

"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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post #134 of 185
8/30/09 at 3:44pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

And I knew you were going to dismiss my question, because for some reason a whole different set of standards applies to me than to you.

Oh! Do you mean the difference between my sense of reality and yours?

No standards difference. I was mearly trying to point something out to you and you took it and ran with it as they say.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #135 of 185
8/30/09 at 3:56pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

Oh! Do you mean the difference between my sense of reality and yours?

No standards difference. I was mearly trying to point something out to you and you took it and ran with it as they say.

What does this have to do with the death of Ted Kennedy? Just trying to point something out to you.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #136 of 185
8/30/09 at 5:10pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

Why cry out against the injustice of all my horrible questions?

Injustice? Horrible questions? Straw people, as I have never stated or implied or impugned what you have suggested above.

Because, I'm not here to defend Teddy's outstanding record in his tireless defense of the historically disadvantaged and the poor.

Because, Teddy's extensive record of public service speaks for itself, in fact it speaks volumes.

Why regurgitate what others have already stated elsewhere, with much more historical expertise and eloquence, than I could ever hope to achieve?

That's why.
Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!
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Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!
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post #137 of 185
8/30/09 at 5:17pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

A level headed review by AJ!- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=deuju_8FOWo

Warning: You may want to punch your monitor!

AJ seriously?

Now, there's a shining example of one completely useless human being.

His life's work?

Always screamed like a baby with a bullhorn.

And that's what should be engraved on his tombstone.
Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!
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Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!
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post #138 of 185
8/30/09 at 6:19pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by franksargent View Post

AJ seriously?

Now, there's a shining example of one completely useless human being.

His life's work?

Always screamed like a baby with a bullhorn.

And that's what should be engraved on his tombstone.

I was being sarcastic about him being level headed. He's just the opposite, that this video, I thought showed pretty clearly. He takes a subject and simplifies it to fit his scared out of their brains audience. He's a showman at best.

"Baby with a bullhorn" summed him up perfectly.

"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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post #139 of 185
8/30/09 at 8:39pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by franksargent View Post

Because, I'm not here to defend Teddy's outstanding record in his tireless defense of the historically disadvantaged and the poor.

Because, Teddy's extensive record of public service speaks for itself, in fact it speaks volumes.

Why regurgitate what others have already stated elsewhere, with much more historical expertise and eloquence, than I could ever hope to achieve?

Your answer then begs the question: Why are you posting in this thread?
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The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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post #140 of 185
8/30/09 at 10:57pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post

Your answer then begs the question: Why are you posting in this thread?

For the same reason most people post in any thread.

Because the clock is running, T-5 days and counting.
Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!
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Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!
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post #141 of 185
8/30/09 at 11:02pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by franksargent View Post

For the same reason most people post in any thread.

Because the clock is running, T-5 days and counting.

If you are referring to the ban of certain members... You can do better.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #142 of 185
8/30/09 at 11:20pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

If you are referring to the ban of certain members... You can do better.

Actually, no I can't. Absent one member, PO suddenly seems like a breath of fresh air.

I pop in daily, gaze briefly, and usually move on. Lately that is.

Too much trolling, too much shrillness, too many drive by posts, lately.
Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!
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Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!
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post #143 of 185
8/31/09 at 12:00am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by franksargent View Post

Actually, no I can't. Absent one member, PO suddenly seems like a breath of fresh air.

I pop in daily, gaze briefly, and usually move on. Lately that is.

Too much trolling, too much shrillness, too many drive by posts, lately.

So your whole PO experience is better with the person banned, and that is why you are posting in threads about why you don't want to post in those threads?
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #144 of 185
8/31/09 at 6:54am
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

So your whole PO experience is better with the person banned, and that is why you are posting in threads about why you don't want to post in those threads?

Depends on the person. In this case I think a lot of people here agree with Frank.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #145 of 185
8/31/09 at 7:02am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

Depends on the person. In this case I think a lot of people here agree with Frank.

You also think the majority of Americans wholeheartedly support Obama and the Dems, which is also wrong.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #146 of 185
8/31/09 at 7:42am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

Depends on the person. In this case I think a lot of people here agree with Frank.

I will wait for Frank to reply. Your opinion of what he thinks is much less interesting to me than his opinion in this case.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #147 of 185
8/31/09 at 8:12am
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

So your whole PO experience is better with the person banned, and that is why you are posting in threads about why you don't want to post in those threads?

Il Buono, il Brutto, il Cattivo

Spite

Quote:
In fair division problems, spite is a phenomenon that occurs when a player's value of an allocation decreases when one or more other players' valuation increases. Thus, other things being equal, a player exhibiting spite will prefer an allocation in which other players receive less than more (if the good is desirable).

The sum total of my contribution to this thread? RIP Teddy

Quote:
All the world's a stage,
and all the men and women merely players:
They have their exits and their entrances;
and one man in his time plays many parts.
Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!
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Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!
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post #148 of 185
8/31/09 at 8:32am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by franksargent View Post

Il Buono, il Brutto, il Cattivo

Spite



The sum total of my contribution to this thread? RIP Teddy

Ok, so you post out of spite. Noted.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #149 of 185
8/31/09 at 8:36am
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

Ok, so you post out of spite. Noted.

In this thread at this time? Yes.
Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!
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Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!
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post #150 of 185
8/31/09 at 9:17am
What a bunch of hateful, mindless drivel in this thread, written by the usual suspects. Those of you trashing Kennedy were likely waxing rhapsodic when Reagan died and was sainted. Does your irrational hatred have no limits? It appears not.
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post #151 of 185
8/31/09 at 9:22am
I had a dream last night that I was watching TV, and saw something called "Weekend Update" with a grey-haired Chevy Chase.

He said, "This just in - Senator Ted Kennedy is still dead".

I have weird dreams sometimes....
\
eye
bee
BEE
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eye
bee
BEE
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post #152 of 185
8/31/09 at 5:58pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

What does this have to do with the death of Ted Kennedy? Just trying to point something out to you.

If that's your postion then maybe you should have taken your own advice in the first place and we wouldn't be having this conversation.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #153 of 185
8/31/09 at 5:59pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

I will wait for Frank to reply. Your opinion of what he thinks is much less interesting to me than his opinion in this case.

You got it anyway.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #154 of 185
8/31/09 at 8:12pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

You also think the majority of Americans wholeheartedly support Obama and the Dems, which is also wrong.


I've never said
Quote:
wholeheartedly

.

You said that. Those are your words. However who's in control of the government now when some of your colleges were predicting a democratic meltdown?

Face it. It's the liberal part of the cycle now. It'll probably last a good while longer ( 8 to 12 years ). Deal with it.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #155 of 185
9/1/09 at 7:21am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

I've never said .

You said that. Those are your words. However who's in control of the government now when some of your colleges were predicting a democratic meltdown?

Face it. It's the liberal part of the cycle now. It'll probably last a good while longer ( 8 to 12 years ). Deal with it.

I said I think you're wrong. Deal with that.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #156 of 185
9/1/09 at 6:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

I said I think you're wrong. Deal with that.

Well all of my 56 years say cycles rarely end that quickly. You see it's not just about Obama. It's bigger than that. We've already had 8 years of a conservative period. It's not going to go back to that so quickly.


I'm sorry but it's you who are wrong about a great many things. Deal with it.

I'm usually right about these things and this time I know I'm right.

Here's a good read on the subject.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2009/5...-Them-That-Way

Why Are Republicans Unpopular? And How Do We Keep Them That Way?


And please don't think some small independent conservative party is going to suddenly rise to power. In order for that to happen we'd have to be hearing about their rise to power right now.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #157 of 185
9/1/09 at 6:58pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

Well all of my 56 years say cycles rarely end that quickly. You see it's not just about Obama. It's bigger than that. We've already had 8 years of a conservative period. It's not going to go back to that so quickly.


I'm sorry but it's you who are wrong about a great many things. Deal with it.

I'm usually right about these things and this time I know I'm right.

Here's a good read on the subject.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2009/5...-Them-That-Way

Why Are Republicans Unpopular? And How Do We Keep Them That Way?


And please don't think some small independent conservative party is going to suddenly rise to power. In order for that to happen we'd have to be hearing about their rise to power right now.

The 8 years before Obama were a far cry from true conservatism.

I respect your opinion, but I disagree with it. Deal with that.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #158 of 185
9/1/09 at 7:00pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

The 8 years before Obama were a far cry from true conservatism.

I respect your opinion, but I disagree with it. Deal with that.

I can deal with that. It won't chage the outcome but I can deal with your difference in opinion.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #159 of 185
9/1/09 at 7:07pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

I can deal with that. It won't chage the outcome but I can deal with your difference in opinion.

The outcome is unknown, unless you can see the future. If so, can you tell me what the winning lottery numbers are? I'll give you a cut of the winnings.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #160 of 185
9/1/09 at 7:19pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

The 8 years before Obama were a far cry from true conservatism.

Conservatism can never fail. It can only be failed.
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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