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Apple's iPod classic may also gain camera, report claims - Page 2

post #41 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by pmz View Post

Are you joking? Or simply clueless?

LOTS of people are waiting for a new iPod classic and HAVE been for two years. Last Year was a horrible downgrade, with the loss of FOURTY GIGS of storage to the 120 classic.

I know several people with 160 gig classics that are waiting and expecting a larger capacity device. 160 gigs (let alone 120!!!) is ridiculously too small to be the largest of iPod lineup. With the prices on storage now we should be seeing a 200+ gig iPod, or even a 300+ gig iPod to keep the real media hounds happy.


Count me as one of the faithful eagerly awaiting 9/9, with the hope of a much larger iPod Classic - last year was a horrible disappointment, not only because of the cut in storage, but because the VERY NEXT DAY after Apple's little press stunt, Toshiba announced a 240GB hard drive that would fit very nicely inside the Classic (fat) units! ugh!

Right now I'm pusing 3GB of free space left on the 160GB iPod Classic that I store all my electronic, pop, rock, and alternative music on (yes, I categorize everything into just a few genres). The other 160GB unit has plenty of free space, but I put country, live albums, soundtracks, musicals, etc on there.

The bottom line is, us media hounds NEED more space - come on Apple, until flash memory gets to the 160GB level and above, do NOT discontinue the Classic - that is simply unacceptable!
post #42 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chintan100 View Post

Now this is taken too far...

Why would anyone buy an ipod classic?

Just because it has a larger memory?

Yes. With iPhones and the Touch maxing out at 32GB (rumored for 64GB in Sept.), tell me how to fit my 100GB+ music collection on a flash-based iPod.

And please don't say, well, pick and choose. No thanks. I like carrying my full library with me on my 160GB Classic wherever I go. Never know when the mood to hear some Replacements will hit ya...
post #43 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

Whether the rumor proves true or not, any potential upgrades to the iPod classic this fall would likely be the last for Apple's sole remaining hard-drive-based media player. Flash memory has become less expensive and more reliable in recent years, and is now the standard on the remainder of Apple's iPod lineup.

And I would say you have no clue how different the groups are that buy these different devices.

One group is trying to get the largest storage space possible, which is not financially feasible using flash memory right now. Therefore, for this group, if Apple cares about them at all, they will not drop hard drive based iPods. If they don't care about them, they will drop these. At this time, they are still selling a significant amount of them.

Don't look at percentages. Apple isn't. They are looking at profit margins and how many they are selling. Right now this group still brings pretty good money (don't compare percentages) to Apple.
post #44 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sabon View Post

Don't look at percentages. Apple isn't. They are looking at profit margins and how many they are selling. Right now this group still brings pretty good money (don't compare percentages) to Apple.

Well nothing could be more profitable than the HDD iPod Classics. One drop and its over- you have to buy another one.
post #45 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gazoobee View Post

I wouldn't say "prosumer" as that implies someone who is ahead of the curve in all respects. Ripping your media to unnecessarily large sizes and carrying it all around with you is not that rational.

A similar "prosumer" on the picture taking side would be someone who habitually carries every picture they ever took, and also stores them in RAW format on a ginormous computer/viewer that they lug around with them.

No one would ever call that person smart or professional.

Hmm... time for a math lesson young padawan -

MP3s ripped to 192kb, cbr, are, for some, marginally acceptable quality-wise. For a DJ in a club, I'd say barely adequate, but for my needs, it'll do.

Now, take 20 years worth of music collecting, roughly 100 - 150 CDs a year, and encode 'em @ 192kb. What do you get? My collection...

... which does NOT fit on a 160GB Classic. Not even close.

Now... take a DJ... who may have twice the amount of music (factor in remixes, limited releases, edits, etc) - again, one device won't even begin to accomodate. How are you supposed to manage that? Figure out ahead of time what to play? That's not how DJs work - they decide what to play based on the vibe of the crowd on the dancefloor, in the moment, not beforehand, therefore, having all music available on each device is critical. Apple clearly dropping the ball here (they did this last year).

I wouldn't dare call a DJ dumb or unprofessional...
post #46 of 74
How about a video-out so that you can carry around your full iTunes library (at 720p) in a large capacity HDD?
post #47 of 74
Some people will believe anything they hear.
post #48 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by ColeSQ View Post

But don't be surprised if classic = touch + a hard drive.

I take it that iPhone OS was designed to run on a flash-based environment. The HD-based iPod was dubbed 'Classic" because they intend to halt its development. Apple's flash memory orders reflect that down the road, its true replacement is the touch.

The heart of Apple's iPod business lies with the low capacity Nano crowd. There is no reason not to upgrade to an iPod Touch if a 128GB model becomes viable in a year.

The Classic is just a stopgap.
post #49 of 74
Dishes are done man.

post #50 of 74
If the Touch gets a camera, can I assume that it will be like the iPhone and also do video, therfore getting a built in microphone, and therefore providing me all I need for a WiFi Skype phone, therefore getting me a little bit closer to being able to tell the telcos that $50/mo. for a phone for people who only use a phone when they actually only have something to communicate besides mindless chatter, is to much and I don't have to pay that anymore?
post #51 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gazoobee View Post

I wouldn't say "prosumer" as that implies someone who is ahead of the curve in all respects. Ripping your media to unnecessarily large sizes and carrying it all around with you is not that rational.

A similar "prosumer" on the picture taking side would be someone who habitually carries every picture they ever took, and also stores them in RAW format on a ginormous computer/viewer that they lug around with them.

No one would ever call that person smart or professional.

I feel as though I can say this because I am one, but prosumers are often irrational about particular things in their attempts to compensate for being neither a typical consumer nor a professional. Audiophile prosumers DO rip unnecessarily large tracks and demand they have many weeks worth of consecutive music on demand at their fingertips. Reasonable music professionals would likely not use an iPod at all for their profession.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ColeSQ View Post

I think you guys are missing the point. Apple alienates (or doesn't alienate) customers at the time and place of its choosing - history has loads of examples of this, the most recent being Firewire, matte screens, and (my non-alienation example) just keeping the AppleTV around as a hobby.

Apple is not afraid to make decisions that potentially alienate users because they have the confidence they won't lose those same customers based on their limited competitive alternatives.

Having said that, they're more than happy to sell low rev products until development and production costs overtake the margin value target Apple has chosen. Classic's been back before, it'll likely be back again. But don't be surprised if classic = touch + a hard drive.

And of all the hobbyist/prosumer things I've bitched and moaned about (no xMac, no headless iMac, no DVR funtionality in AppleTV, etc.) Apple has continued to not care. Companies need to follow markets, else they end up like the American automotive industry... Real prosumers take things into their own hands... like getting an anti-glare mask for your MacBook, hacking your AppleTV (there's LOTS of great hacks out there) or getting a firewire card for your Mac Pro. Sure there isn't always a solution, but you have to learn to adapt to where the market moves.
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post #52 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuckD View Post

I take it that iPhone OS was designed to run on a flash-based environment. The HD-based iPod was dubbed 'Classic" because they intend to halt its development. Apple's flash memory orders reflect that down the road, its true replacement is the touch.

The heart of Apple's iPod business lies with the low capacity Nano crowd. There is no reason not to upgrade to an iPod Touch if a 128GB model becomes viable in a year.

The Classic is just a stopgap.

Agreed... and increasing the capacity of the Classic during this refresh would make replacing it even more insurmountable. That said, I do not anticipate a capacity bump before the unit is cut altogether.
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post #53 of 74
A recurrent problem on these forums is Egomaximalism, where people with large egos think that their modes of usage or feature needs define the maximum possible requirements for all possible users.

Egomaximalists are always wrong, every time, with no exceptions. Every time one of them pronounces that no one could possibly have a use for firewire, matt screens or more than 32gb in an iPod, a veritable deluge of people turn up to prove them wrong.

On a cost per GB basis, flash is still about 100 times more expensive than HD. Wishes will not change that reality.
post #54 of 74
My music collection is roughly 500GB. At some point I'll re-rip as lossless. In addition I have tons of videos. If Apple made an iPod/iPhone measured in Terabytes, I would fill it up.

Some day, it will happen.

But for now, the capacity limit changes my behavior. For a lot of people, the existing line-ups fit within their media collections. For many people they're coming close. For those of us where we have to change our behavior, the difference in capacity isn't as relevant as the interface, features and form factor.

Thus, despite my large collection, I rarely used my 80GB iPod once the 8GB iPhone came out. Now with the 32GB iPhone, I don't use that 80GB iPod at all, nor would I consider a larger one.

From Apple's perspective, this is good. Apple would rather have the behavior modification such that we then buy into a platform that allows it to sell apps, as well as to create app-lock-in instead of DRM-lock-in.

The iPod Classic is going to die, maybe not this September, but soon. It will be telling to see if the a new iPod Classic comes out and if it exceeds 120GB. Next year, we can expect a 128GB iPod touch, while the iPod Classic would need to add a platter to get past 120GB.
post #55 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chintan100 View Post

Now this is taken too far...

Why would anyone buy an ipod classic?

Just because it has a larger memory?

I bet iPods will get larger flash memory which is very near to the Classic's hard disk capacity.

With the touch screen and app store, even the Touch without camera beats Classic (with camera) any day.

Classic is analogous to the White MacBook.

I don't know about anyone, but I sure would. I was hoping for a 240 GB Classic (you telling me you could get a flash iPod with that much storage?). But please NO CAMERA on the Classic. My car stereo has an iPod input, and for long drives there's nothing better than having a lot of music feeding in (shuffle by album).
post #56 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by cnocbui View Post

A recurrent problem on these forums is Egomaximalism, where people with large egos think that their modes of usage or feature needs define the maximum possible requirements for all possible users.

Egomaximalists are always wrong, every time, with no exceptions. Every time one of them pronounces that no one could possibly have a use for firewire, matt screens or more than 32gb in an iPod, a veritable deluge of people turn up to prove them wrong.

On a cost per GB basis, flash is still about 100 times more expensive than HD. Wishes will not change that reality.

I can only assume you're targeting this at me since I was the one suggesting we move on from these wishes... but did I say or imply that those technologies were obsolete? No. Of course matte screens and firewire are useful. I use them. They're just not the direction Apple is going, and we prosumers need to find ways to circumvent Apple's over-eagerness to oversimplify all their products.

Instead of complaining about it and berating those who don't understand your need for technology that Apple has abandoned, try directing your efforts towards creating a solution. Whining doesn't help anybody...

-Clive
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post #57 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

Yeah, my 120B is fabulous for my car. Can't live without it. Couldn't imagine a Nano (too small) or a Touch (too fancy) performing that role.

Imagine trying to use a Touch while driving! Has everyone seen the teens texting while driving ad?
post #58 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by teckstud View Post

Well nothing could be more profitable than the HDD iPod Classics. One drop and its over- you have to buy another one.

I've dropped my 160 GB classic more than once, including onto asphalt from about 5', and it still works fine. Did put a ding in the case though.
post #59 of 74
Here's what I don't understand... I don't understand why people care if the Classic dies or not. The Touch has a neat interface. The Classic has tactile controls and large capacity. Very different animals. Some people prefer one or the other or both for different reasons. Who cares? As long Apple can get good margins on both and both are selling... why should they drop either? Just because you don't think the Classic is "cool"?
post #60 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clive At Five View Post

In the advent of a 64+ gig iPod Touch, the iPod Classic has become the "prosumer" model of iPod line... used by the few audiophiles who have huge libraries, and could care less about the aesthetic appeal and reliabilty of the device.

-Clive

Audiophiles don't listen to mp3's. It's either virgin vinyl or FLAC. Purely talking about music quality, mp3's are the worst thing that could ever happen to music.
post #61 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by F1Turbo View Post

I've dropped my 160 GB classic more than once, including onto asphalt from about 5', and it still works fine. Did put a ding in the case though.

Good for you- I broke 2 out of 3 from drops, have one 80 GB left that still works. Both were in cases.
post #62 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clive At Five View Post

I can only assume you're targeting this at me since I was the one suggesting we move on from these wishes... but did I say or imply that those technologies were obsolete? No. Of course matte screens and firewire are useful. I use them. They're just not the direction Apple is going, and we prosumers need to find ways to circumvent Apple's over-eagerness to oversimplify all their products.

Instead of complaining about it and berating those who don't understand your need for technology that Apple has abandoned, try directing your efforts towards creating a solution. Whining doesn't help anybody...

-Clive

Sorry to dent your ego clive, but no, I did not have you in mind in particular. Post number 3 in the thread rekindled the idea and stoked the boilers.

Firewire and matt screens are back, hadn't you heard? Just wish I hadn't had to buy this POS MacBook I have, when I had to, but I digress.

Complaining IS the way to circumvent Apple's errors of judgment, as evidenced by the return of Firewire to the MacBooks and availability of matt screen options. The old adage - 'The squeaky wheel gets the oil' was ever apropos.

The only direction Apple goes is in a straight line towards the $ £ signs.

I was not whining, just making an astute general observation.

So if you are reading this Apple, I want a Touch with a HD please. I don't care how thick it is. Oh yes, and while I'm at it, the reflections, audio quality and headphone jack on the Macbook 13" Al suck. Pretty looks do not compensate for such things.
post #63 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gazoobee View Post

A similar "prosumer" on the picture taking side would be someone who habitually carries every picture they ever took, and also stores them in RAW format on a ginormous computer/viewer that they lug around with them.

No one would ever call that person smart or professional.

I have all my photos on my iPod, but not to look at on the iPod...as backup. I have iTunes set to copy the originals to the iPod (can't do that with a touch), not just the downsized iPod display version. It's the ultimate in convenience that every time I plug in my 5.5 gen iPod, my photo library is backed up automatically to a portable drive that travels with me 90% of the time and so is safe from fire, flood, or theft (unlike my Time Machine backup). Photos are the one truly irreplacable type of data on my computer. Everything else can be repurchased, reconstructed, or wouldn't be missed if it was lost.

You may not consider that professional, but I consider it smart!

So until the touch has: a) the capacity to hold my music, video, AND photos; and b) the capability to store original photos, not just the reduced scale/quality it uses for display, then it can not replace my hard drive based iPod. (Not to mention that I can download photos from my camera directly onto my iPod when travelling as backup or to clear space on my memory cards, no computer required. Try that with a touch!)

Edit: Oh, and I can listen to FM radio on my "obsolete" iPod, too!
post #64 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clive At Five View Post

. Of course matte screens and firewire are useful. I use them. They're just not the direction Apple is going, and we prosumers need to find ways to circumvent Apple's over-eagerness to oversimplify all their products.

-Clive

?? Hello? Apple has done an about face! I thought firewire and matte had returned- big time.
Next up- a 13" matte to complete the Pro line up- by year end. And then -the return of the matte iMac!
post #65 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by mpantone View Post

There is no technological reason why Apple can't drop in flash memory into the iPod classic. The problem is the price of the memory combined with the ongoing development and support costs for keeping around a dying platform. Apple likes to kill off legacy hardware pretty quickly.

I don't know about dying, it's more of a device with limited interest. In fact I could see Apple refactoring Classic into a very compelling product. That would be the Newton 2 that I dream about.

If there is one thing I'm confident in saying it is that the current 32GB limit on the Touch sucks and 64GB won't make it better. I'm not sure if Apple realizes they messed up with the classic with it last capacity roll back.
Quote:

It is unlikely that we will see a 128GB iPod touch this time around. The current high-end model is 32GB, so the next one should be 64GB. The cost of 128MB of flash memory is a little too much for Apple to retain its margins (or would make the device way too pricey).

I don't buy the idea that it is a pricing issue when USB based 32 & 64 GB dongles are dirt cheap. Well cheap enough to indicate cost is a non issue. Yeah I know it isn't the same flash as is used in the Touch but it does indicate capacity is not an issue.

As to Apples margins I'm sure many here would agree that that can be thinned out without damage to the company. In fact they need to keep an eye on exposure to competition. Who knows one day MS may have a competitive product. In any event Apple has been awfully agressive with pricing the latest hardware releases.



Dave
post #66 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gazoobee View Post

........
SSD's will be made in the 1.8" format for some time to come. Regardless of what size they come out with, I would suggest you buy a new Classic *this* year regardless of the storage and learn how to open it up and replace the hard drive yourself because next year it might be discontinued altogether. Either that or wait until end of life and pick up a second hand one on eBay.

Well yes and no. Yes 1.8" drives will be around a long time. No the interface may not remain compatible.
Quote:

If you are careful, you can keep upgrading the hard drive yourself with bigger and cheaper SSD drives in the 1.8 format for many years to come.

there is no promise from the manufactures to support legacy interfaces. In fact todays line up is extremely thin.


Dave
post #67 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by mr O View Post

this is very unlikely! The classic is doomed.

I can't see a camera on a nano either it's too small.

However, the iPod touch will transform in a great camera. Introducing different models: from high capacity touches with high end compact lenses to low capacity touches with low end compact lenses.

I agree. The camera is destined for the iPod touch, hopefully with some optics, not the nano or the classic. This is one of those gash rumours that comes out in the days before an announcement that Apple uses to find out who leaked.
post #68 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gazoobee View Post

The trouble is that new 1.8" single platter hard drives are only going to get *more* expensive and flash chips or SSD's are going to get *less* expensive. At that price point, Apple will more likely be able to put in an SSD drive of a larger capacity before they could find someone willing to manufacture a reliable 250 Gig platter drive of that size for the same price. At the same time, the amount of people who will deal with such a large portable, or need the storage capacity so much that they consider it, is dropping all the time.

I think you've hit the nail on the head there. HDD's that go into pocket sized devices are likely to start going up in price as manufacturing capacity gets reduced due to less iPods being sold with HDD's in. Flash is coming down in price, and as manufacturing of flash is about to transition down to another device node (3x nm) in semiconductor fabs, prices will drop again as they are able to cram more devices on each wafer.

I would guess that eventually Apple will see a tipping point at which the economics favour flash and that will be it for HDD in iPods. I do think they will keep a high capacity (>100Gb) option though, and expect that HDD will be needed to keep that for now.
post #69 of 74
The classic is a cool little device, if it costs them less the keep selling it than discontinue it, they should keep it around. Most people don't need that much storage for music and videos but some do. Myself I use my iphone for everything, I won a nano and a classic at different times through my work (lucky I guess) and when running use the nano with nike+, but if I upgraded to an iphone 3GS then I wouldn't have a use for it anymore. My classic I use as an external harddrive, it's crazy portable (obviously) and has a lot of storage.
If they disco anything it should be the current shuffle, that's one apple product I'd never want. And on top of that you have to use the apple headphones that constantly fall out of your ears? No way. My favourite shuffle is the still the original stick of gum one.
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post #70 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by ecking View Post

My classic I use as an external harddrive, it's crazy portable (obviously) and has a lot of storage.
If they disco anything it should be the current shuffle, that's one apple product I'd never want. And on top of that you have to use the apple headphones that constantly fall out of your ears? No way. My favourite shuffle is the still the original stick of gum one.

I like my original shuffle too even though it sometimes forgets which song to play next and I wind up hearing the same batch over and over again. I've heard, but it may not be true, that the audio quality of the original shuffle exceeds that of all other iPods.

My wife and I have a music collection of roughly 10,000 songs. Most of it is rock but a chunk is other genres like classical where movements lasting up to 20 minutes show up as a song. I rip and store it in Apple Lossless so I'm not sure how much space it would occupy in 256 AAC format, but probably in the 50-60 GB range. That means even a 64GB touch is going to be filled very quickly and not have much room for apps, pictures, podcasts or video.

Back when the highest capacity iPod was 60GB, I was in Apple sales and recall a number of customers complaining that there wasn't an iPod large enough to hold their libraries. I imagine the number of people needing more than 60GB has grown substantially in the last 5 years so it would be foolish for Apple to limit their top end to just 64GB.
post #71 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by updeau22 View Post

When the new iPods are announced on 9/9, when will they actually go on sale in stores?

depends. we won't know until there is an announcement, whatever day that is. however, generally with the ipods the announcement is 'shipping today' (and arriving between 2-4 days from them to the stores) are these new things. Software like itunes is always available within like an hour from the end of the event. although it might take you all day to get connected to get it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mr O View Post

this is very unlikely! The classic is doomed.

i agree with this and with the unlikeliness of a camera on the classic. Frankly I don't see them doing anything to it until they kill it off.

that said, I think that that death won't be until the nano hits a solid 50-60gb (maybe even closer to 100gb) in memory so we have some time.


Quote:
Originally Posted by joelsalt View Post

How about a video-out so that you can carry around your full iTunes library (at 720p) in a large capacity HDD?

video at 720p takes up too much memory so i can't see them going for that until they have better compression.

as for the video out, it's already there. they have and have had dock connector to component and composite cables for at least a solid year.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clive At Five View Post

And of all the hobbyist/prosumer things I've bitched and moaned about (no xMac, no headless iMac, no DVR funtionality in AppleTV, etc.) Apple has continued to not care.

to say that they don't care is over simplifying. Apple is a business and is out to make money. they are going to listen to the masses and based on whatever info they have it was their judgment that certain ideas are selling, certain are not, that certain items would etc.

many of the things that folks like yourself are demanding are things that would be of interest to only a small part of the market. so at this point there's not enough profit to support going that direction. as costs change, that stance will change as well and we'll see new directions and features.
post #72 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chintan100 View Post

Now this is taken too far...

Why would anyone buy an ipod classic?

Just because it has a larger memory?

I bet iPods will get larger flash memory which is very near to the Classic's hard disk capacity.

With the touch screen and app store, even the Touch without camera beats Classic (with camera) any day.

Classic is analogous to the White MacBook.

I concur with the others in this thread who think you are an idiot

Larger memory for more movies, larger memory for 5 years worth of photos on a camera enabled iPod Classic, larger memory for having your entire digital life in your pocket - not just 100 fart apps.

.
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post #73 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clive At Five View Post

I can only assume you're targeting this at me since I was the one suggesting we move on from these wishes... but did I say or imply that those technologies were obsolete? No. Of course matte screens and firewire are useful. I use them. They're just not the direction Apple is going, and we prosumers need to find ways to circumvent Apple's over-eagerness to oversimplify all their products.

Instead of complaining about it and berating those who don't understand your need for technology that Apple has abandoned, try directing your efforts towards creating a solution. Whining doesn't help anybody...

-Clive

The best thing to do is buy another product from a different manufacturer. Hitting Apple where it hurts is the only way to get them to change. A lot of people on here would just buy the product anyway, and live with the compromises, simply because it's Apple. But all that does is give them the nod that what they're currently doing is A-OK.
post #74 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulMJohnson View Post

I think you've hit the nail on the head there. HDD's that go into pocket sized devices are likely to start going up in price as manufacturing capacity gets reduced due to less iPods being sold with HDD's in. Flash is coming down in price, and as manufacturing of flash is about to transition down to another device node (3x nm) in semiconductor fabs, prices will drop again as they are able to cram more devices on each wafer.

I would guess that eventually Apple will see a tipping point at which the economics favour flash and that will be it for HDD in iPods. I do think they will keep a high capacity (>100Gb) option though, and expect that HDD will be needed to keep that for now.

About a month ago I read someplace that one of the 1.8" hard drive manufactures was having a hard time finding a buyer for it's little storage module. On the other hand 1.8" SSD modules seem to be used everywhere. September could very well see the end of HD based music players.

The question in my mind is how will Apple approach this transition. That is will they stick to the 1.8" format or go with a custom pc daughter board or single pc board. A module gives them the advantage of the manufactures wear leveling and also the possibility of multiple suppliers. Putting the storage on board, like Touch, lowers the cost at the expense of rolling your own flash management technology. However the custom pc board route is highly flexible.

In anyevent it does look like Classic has hit the end of the road. It will be very interesting to see what the replacement is. I just hope they end up with a disk emulation mode to allow management from a Mac.


Dave
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