AppleInsider › Forums › General › General Discussion › Snow Leopard touchscreen "evidence," trademarked Apple chat bubbles
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Snow Leopard touchscreen "evidence," trademarked Apple chat bubbles

post #1 of 53
9/2/09 at 9:05am
Thread Starter 
A new report alleges that a large on-screen digital keyboard could be a sign that Snow Leopard sets the stage for Apple's upcoming tablet device; and Apple rejected an App Store submission for its chat bubbles.

"Evidence" of Snow Leopard's possible touchscreen connection

Snow Leopard features a new, larger on-screen software keyboard that is accessed more easily than in Leopard. The soft keyboard can also be expanded to take up the entire width of the screen. The new operating system also features the publicized "Expose" feature, which allows users to easily switch between different open windows within the same application with a finger-sized preview pane.

Cult of Mac sees these additions as signs that Snow Leopard, or a version of it, could play a significant part in Apple's long-anticipated, yet-to-be-announced touchscreen tablet device.

"Snow Leopard includes a big virtual keyboard that looks clearly designed for typing on a touchscreen," the report states. "It’s a big, bold version of the iPhone’s virtual keyboard with large keys that scream 'type me!'"

To see the keyboard in Snow Leopard, go to System Preferences and choose Keyboard, click the box "Show Keyboard & Character Viewer in menu bar," and then enable "Show Keyboard Viewer" in the menu bar option on the top right of your screen.

What operating system the device might run is unclear, though sources have told AppleInsider that the much-anticipated tablet will sport a 10-inch screen and debut in early 2010.

Developer blasts Apple for App Store troubles

In a profanity filled, not safe for work rant, developer Joe Stump said an update to his application Chess Wars was denied because the chat bubbles in the software were too similar to those in the official iPhone SMS application created by Apple.

Stump said he was upset because of a lack of communication from Apple. He alleged that he tried to reach out to the company after "weeks" of silence. The application was updated in an attempt to fix "show stopping bugs" that were only discovered after the software was initially released.

Stump said an Apple representative told him that the chat bubbles used in the iPhone SMS software are trademarked. The employee reportedly told him that he could make the bubbles "less shiny" to be in compliance.

This latest example joins a number of incidents in recent months in which developers and pundits have become publicly critical of Apple's App Store policies and alleged lack of clear communication
Reply
Reply
post #2 of 53
9/2/09 at 9:18am
Stump is an idiot. If part of your app copies the look and feel of one of Apples apps then don't expect it to pass muster.
Reply
Reply
post #3 of 53
9/2/09 at 9:21am
Quote:
Originally Posted by irnchriz View Post

Stump is an idiot.

and apple, obviously, even more so...
Reply
Reply
post #4 of 53
9/2/09 at 9:27am
The OS has had an on-screen keyboard for some time. Improving it means nothing accept that it needed improving. This is neither evidence nor hint of a touchscreen device

As for the developer, it seems that ripping off Apple's intellectual property is reason enough for rejection. It seems the fix was simple enough. I honestly do not understand the hoopla over this. Also, how is it that the submitted app was full of "show-stopping" bugs? Why was the developer in such a rush? I am getting tired of these half-baked attempts at a media grab every time a developer gets his nose bent out of shape. The madness has to end.
Apple has no competition. Every commercial product which competes directly with an Apple product gives the distinct impression that, Where it is original, it is not good, and where it is good, it...
Reply
Apple has no competition. Every commercial product which competes directly with an Apple product gives the distinct impression that, Where it is original, it is not good, and where it is good, it...
Reply
post #5 of 53
9/2/09 at 9:32am
This is ridiculous, Apple wants to retain rights to the look and feel of their iPhone.
The developers who wish to have consistency on the platform between their product and the phone. This is generally in the OS developer's best interest as well, all of them have look and feel guidelines for consistency.

There is absolutely nothing stopping Apple from extending to all iPhone products a license to use certain Apple trademarks to keep a consistent look and feel; but disallow the use of it on outside platforms.
Reply
Reply
post #6 of 53
9/2/09 at 9:33am
Apple has been designing for touch for a while I feel.
If they are going to use Snow Leopard, then how do you model a command click or control (right) click using touch especially in the dock where a press and hold does something different to a right click. Some interesting questions to answer.

The one thing which annoys me about the new software keyboard is that you can no longer change the font, which means it is a little harder to find out how to type certain characters using Dingbat typefaces.
Reply
Reply
post #7 of 53
9/2/09 at 9:43am
Quote:
Originally Posted by irnchriz View Post

Stump is an idiot. If part of your app copies the look and feel of one of Apples apps then don't expect it to pass muster.

i was thinking the same thing. i'm pretty sure that use of trademarked logos, images etc was in the developers rules from the start.

and the employee actually gave him exact info on how to change things so avoid the issue. and not just 'rejected for use of trademarked items' and left him in the cold to figure out what they were talking about.
Reply
Reply
post #8 of 53
9/2/09 at 9:43am
Quote:
Originally Posted by dguisinger View Post

This is ridiculous, Apple wants to retain rights to the look and feel of their iPhone.
The developers who wish to have consistency on the platform between their product and the phone. This is generally in the OS developer's best interest as well, all of them have look and feel guidelines for consistency..

+++

Major league retarded on Apple's part.
Reply
Reply
post #9 of 53
9/2/09 at 9:46am
the developer is trying to get press so more people will buy his app. its about that simple, IMO.
Reply
Reply
post #10 of 53
9/2/09 at 10:01am
Both the developer and Apple come off sounding bad.

But, 1: it should never take 6 weeks to hear back. Hell, it should never take longer than 2.
And 2: you can't Trademark UI elements. Trademark doesn't work that way.

Apple can certainly refuse UI for whatever reasons it feels like. But Trademark doesn't enter into it.
Reply
Reply
post #11 of 53
9/2/09 at 10:01am
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

Stump said an Apple representative told him that the chat bubbles used in the iPhone SMS software are trademarked. The employee reportedly told him that he could make the bubbles "less shiny" to be in compliance.

Or he could choose to make his bubbles more wet looking... or how about more oily in appearance? Perhaps somewhat more liquidly looking?? Then again he could go with more glassy appearance??? Hey, what about icy looking yea I think he'd be fine if the chat bubbles looked more icy...



Apple you continue to outdo yourself!
Apple Fanboy: Anyone who started liking Apple before I did!
Reply
Apple Fanboy: Anyone who started liking Apple before I did!
Reply
post #12 of 53
9/2/09 at 10:02am
Quote:
Originally Posted by irnchriz View Post

Stump is an idiot. If part of your app copies the look and feel of one of Apples apps then don't expect it to pass muster.

I would have expected the Apple text bubble message display to be a standard part of the Cocoa Touch API for use by anyone.

What a shame that it isn't! Maybe the guy should use swords as the backgrounds, like a Knight's sword, pointing right or left according to who wrote. Fits quite well with "Chess Wars" I think.
Reply
Reply
post #13 of 53
9/2/09 at 10:08am
Actually, I view this as evidence of Apple NOT incorporating touch into Snow Leopard, as that keyboard looks like they spent 5 minutes on it.
Reply
Reply
post #14 of 53
9/2/09 at 10:12am
He should use little fluffy clouds instead of shiny bubbles.
Reply
Reply
post #15 of 53
9/2/09 at 10:12am
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleBiter View Post

Actually, I view this as evidence of Apple NOT incorporating touch into Snow Leopard, as that keyboard looks like they spent 5 minutes on it.

The bigger problem is the size of the keyboard. The onscreen keyboard is a full Apple keyboard with num pad. I displayed it on my 24" display and put my fingers on it as if to type. Very comfortable fit on a 24" display. Not even thinkable on a 10".
Apple has no competition. Every commercial product which competes directly with an Apple product gives the distinct impression that, Where it is original, it is not good, and where it is good, it...
Reply
Apple has no competition. Every commercial product which competes directly with an Apple product gives the distinct impression that, Where it is original, it is not good, and where it is good, it...
Reply
post #16 of 53
9/2/09 at 10:17am
First this guy is a HOTHEAD

BUT, he does have 1 point, it took too long for communication, or did it? Maybe Apple could build a queue system. Now serving number 70,001, damn I'm 99,000 in the App submission queue. Atleast it would give an expectation of how long the wait might be???

The infringing Graphic is too bad, especially since they didn't seem to catch it on the prior submissions, unless it wasn't present during those submissions??

Overall, guy went off the deep end prematurely, should have attempted contact earlier (why'd he wait soooo long)

Apple should have contacted about infringement sooner (exception, see my queue comment)

Other posters seem to jump to conclusions and demonize quickly 'AssUME'ing they 'know'

Reply
Reply
post #17 of 53
9/2/09 at 10:21am
I don't usually post, but there are a lot of apps in the App Store that have that same iChat bubble look. Here's a few.

FakeSMS Celebrity Texting
BeeJive IM
Tweetie
Facebook (looks almost exactly like Messages.app)

Also, BeeJive IM even uses iChat/Messages sounds!

Why aren't those apps banned from the App Store?
Reply
Reply
post #18 of 53
9/2/09 at 10:21am
Quote:
To see the keyboard in Snow Leopard...

Was a graphic too difficult to include in the writeup?
Reply
Reply
post #19 of 53
9/2/09 at 10:21am
Who cares about a little developer. Kill him, or not, doesn't matter.

Point is the tablet will take the world by storm. It will be the new cool gadget the world has been waiting for. It will increase Apple's market share of the PC business even more.
Reply
Reply
post #20 of 53
9/2/09 at 10:22am
The most serious (and fixable) problem with the review process is the utter lack of communication with the developer as the app is being reviewed. It's offensive.

That said, I have little sympathy for an inexperience PHP programmer who clearly has trouble acting like a professional. If you ship multiple show-stopping bugs not once but in two consecutive releases then you clearly don't know what you're doing. He knows fulll-well he copied Apple's iChat bubbles pixel-for-pixel yet he has the gall to waste the reviewer's time asking what his chat feature should look like. If you can't act like a professional, Joe, don't expect to be treated like one.
Reply
Reply
post #21 of 53
9/2/09 at 10:28am
oh neat...I just noticed it's 4:20AM.
Reply
Reply
post #22 of 53
9/2/09 at 10:38am
In other news, the same evidence of a touchscreen OS has been found on every Macintosh since the Mac 128.

Apparently Apple has been working on the touchscreen keyboard functionality since the 1980s.

BTW: The keyboard viewer is exactly what its name suggests. It allows you to see your keyboard and what characters will be displayed when modifier keys are used.

This is quite possibly the stupidest rumor I've ever seen (that's gotten any kind of traction at all).
Reply
Reply
post #23 of 53
9/2/09 at 10:41am
Quote:
Originally Posted by macslut View Post

In other news, the same evidence of a touchscreen OS has been found on every Macintosh since the Mac 128.

Apparently Apple has been working on the touchscreen keyboard functionality since the 1980s.

BTW: The keyboard viewer is exactly what its name suggests. It allows you to see your keyboard and what characters will be displayed when modifier keys are used.

This is quite possibly the stupidest rumor I've ever seen (that's gotten any kind of traction at all).

I know- I saw this as soon as I installed SL and thought no big deal.
Reply
Reply
post #24 of 53
9/2/09 at 10:49am
Everyone does remember that whole Google fiasco? All we heard was one side of the issue until Apple finally came forward and set things straight. There were all sorts of ugly rumors and untruths about why this or that was rejected. They turned out to be baseless. Although there is merit in these complaints about the App store, I have to wonder if we're getting the entire story. This guy seems very pissed off, and if he's that angry, he may be tempted to stretch the truth or omit details.

I find it hard to believe that Apple, who has historically been all about consistent interface, would ding someone about using a consistent look. Now if this guys app actually duplicates functionality in an upcoming Apple offering (are these bubbles actually used for SMS or chat?) I can understand that, but I can't imagine they would reject this simply because it 'looks' like an existing UI element.
iMac 27" 2.8 Quad i7 / 24" Dual Core 3.06 / 17" Macbook Pro Unibody / Mac Mini HTPC / iPhone 4
Reply
iMac 27" 2.8 Quad i7 / 24" Dual Core 3.06 / 17" Macbook Pro Unibody / Mac Mini HTPC / iPhone 4
Reply
post #25 of 53
9/2/09 at 10:59am
Quote:
Originally Posted by thespaz View Post

I don't usually post, but there are a lot of apps in the App Store that have that same iChat bubble look. Here's a few.

FakeSMS Celebrity Texting
BeeJive IM
Tweetie
Facebook (looks almost exactly like Messages.app)

Also, BeeJive IM even uses iChat/Messages sounds!

Why aren't those apps banned from the App Store?

I was thinking the same thing. Anyone else check the legitimacy of his claim? Was there possibly some other graphic in his app he used that Apple was referring to & he misunderstood?

I could see how he might stumble into this mess if he say, used the iChat icon to represent network play or something. Does the SDK not come with some standard graphics for a lot of the UI? Maybe the person reviewing his app is just wrong about the bubbles?
Reply
Reply
post #26 of 53
9/2/09 at 11:00am
That virtual keyboard doesn't look ANYTHING like a keyboard I'd expect to see on a tablet.
Emailing video from iPhone to Apple TV , sort of..
Reply
Emailing video from iPhone to Apple TV , sort of..
Reply
post #27 of 53
9/2/09 at 11:15am
Quote:
Originally Posted by backtomac View Post

+++

Major league retarded on Apple's part.

At the same time, I could see concern because of the ever growing app stores for the other phones. They don't want people developing an app that clearly has an iPhone look, and then allow an "apple looking" product to be ported to an Android phone or the Pre.

I don't see a problem with Apple wanting their apps to have a look so the public doesn't think Apple actually created it.

I guess I'm just playing devil's advocate or Apple's advocate in this case.
Reply
Reply
post #28 of 53
9/2/09 at 11:15am
Quote:
Originally Posted by macslut View Post

In other news, the same evidence of a touchscreen OS has been found on every Macintosh since the Mac 128.

Apparently Apple has been working on the touchscreen keyboard functionality since the 1980s.

Agree - though one thing that's a bit unusual/interesting is the removal of the font mapping.
Reply
Reply
post #29 of 53
9/2/09 at 12:04pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by walshbj View Post

That virtual keyboard doesn't look ANYTHING like a keyboard I'd expect to see on a tablet.

Yeah, I'd expect them to take the iPhone virtual keyboard as a baseline implementation.

Sure, it would be a different size, but more importantly the use case is different.

Think about typing on a tablet. There are two ways to do this:

1) It's flat on a table, you're typing as if it is a keyboard.

2) It's in one hand (resting on your arm), and you're typing one handed.

No thumbs this way (unless they release a 6" or less device that you hold like a book with both hands). However the proximity correction will still be required. Basically, you want a bigger version of the iPhone keyboard, maybe better spaced keys and additional keys because you have the space on the bigger screen and a more capable device that requires modifier keys. Shift/ctrl/command/apple keys will be locking to deal with single-fingered typing.
Reply
Reply
post #30 of 53
9/2/09 at 12:10pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by thespaz View Post

I don't usually post, but there are a lot of apps in the App Store that have that same iChat bubble look. Here's a few.

FakeSMS Celebrity Texting
BeeJive IM
Tweetie
Facebook (looks almost exactly like Messages.app)

Also, BeeJive IM even uses iChat/Messages sounds!

Why aren't those apps banned from the App Store?

You are kind of answering your own question here and misleading everyone at the same time. The only app that's close to being *exactly* the same, (which is the actual requirement), is Facebook. Tweetie for instance is not similar at all.

I agree that these bubbles should probably be part of the iPhone API, but if they are not it's pretty obvious that they shouldn't be copied

banned: patpatpat, TEKSTUD, Rot'nApple, JerrySwitched26, iSheldon, DaHarder, Flaneur, Pendergast, thataveragejoe 

Reply

banned: patpatpat, TEKSTUD, Rot'nApple, JerrySwitched26, iSheldon, DaHarder, Flaneur, Pendergast, thataveragejoe 

Reply
post #31 of 53
9/2/09 at 12:22pm
While my money is squarely on Snow Leopard being the (as yet, unannounced) conduit OS for Apple to formally start converging their device matrix (iPhone, iPod touch, Macs, Apple TV, iPad Tablet) from an application run time and developer tools perspective, the "evidence" cited by Leander Kahney is fairly weak. As others have noted, it's far more likely for Apple to iterate from their best practices approach to virtual keyboard (iPhone/iPod touch) than simply tweaking the virtual keyboard that has been part of Mac OS for years.

Btw, if interested, here is the expanded analysis of the forthcoming Apple iPad Tablet device.

Apple, the ‘Boomer’ Tablet and the Matrix
http://bit.ly/DwziS

Cheers,

Mark
Reply
Reply
post #32 of 53
9/2/09 at 12:24pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by walshbj View Post

That virtual keyboard doesn't look ANYTHING like a keyboard I'd expect to see on a tablet.

Agreed, and obviously so.

DaHarder just got banned. Let's crack open the champagne.

Reply

DaHarder just got banned. Let's crack open the champagne.

Reply
post #33 of 53
9/2/09 at 12:32pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gazoobee View Post

You are kind of answering your own question here and misleading everyone at the same time. The only app that's close to being *exactly* the same, (which is the actual requirement), is Facebook. Tweetie for instance is not similar at all.

I agree that these bubbles should probably be part of the iPhone API, but if they are not it's pretty obvious that they shouldn't be copied

In order to maintain UX consistency, certain UI conventions in iPhone OS should be followed. UI consistency should be encouraged. I haven't had to do anything involving this particular UI design pattern, but I would've imagined that it would be part of Cocoa UI. In any case, it most certainly is not trademarked.
Reply
Reply
post #34 of 53
9/2/09 at 12:39pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mac Voyer View Post

SNIP

I am getting tired of these half-baked attempts at a media grab every time a developer gets his nose bent out of shape. The madness has to end.

that was my first thought too. developers getting attention by airing their dirty laundry in public. seems to work though, eh?
Tofino
Reply
Tofino
Reply
post #35 of 53
9/2/09 at 12:49pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by DJRumpy View Post

Everyone does remember that whole Google fiasco? All we heard was one side of the issue until Apple finally came forward and set things straight. There were all sorts of ugly rumors and untruths about why this or that was rejected. They turned out to be baseless. Although there is merit in these complaints about the App store, I have to wonder if we're getting the entire story. This guy seems very pissed off, and if he's that angry, he may be tempted to stretch the truth or omit details.

I find it hard to believe that Apple, who has historically been all about consistent interface, would ding someone about using a consistent look. Now if this guys app actually duplicates functionality in an upcoming Apple offering (are these bubbles actually used for SMS or chat?) I can understand that, but I can't imagine they would reject this simply because it 'looks' like an existing UI element.

i seem to recall reading an article where somebody calculated that the average time a reviewer spends with an app as somewhere in the 5 minute range. if that is the case, i could imagine sometimes things get approved in one version that get later rejected by a different reviewer. i'm wondering if apple got overwhelmed by the success of the app store.

one thing seems to be certain with all the 'stories' that are out there: there need to be some clearer guidelines and maybe it's time to hire some more reviewers and get them all on the same page for the criteria they're rejecting/approving apps on.
Tofino
Reply
Tofino
Reply
post #36 of 53
9/2/09 at 12:58pm
There's also the new IOSurface - can't recall if it was a framework or kernel extension - in Snow Leopard that wasn't present in previous systems. I think the more important question at this stage is not if but when.

Dell already have capacitive touch tablets that came out a year or so after the first iphone and the video demo show how intuitive working this way actually is:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=waZj4NpT4-o

Except imagine it using Apple's interface instead of the stupid Windows one where you have to keep making so many repetitive gestures to do anything. 3 finger swipe right for expose, up for spaces, all the iphone copy/paste and the springy windows when scrolling.

If Dell did that 2 years ago, Apple can surely do it so much better by now and have it ready any time soon.

I'm not keen on the 10" size rumored. 13" seems fine and they can use dual-core Atom so that it won't be near the $2500 price tag of the Dell. Bundled with the 9400M, it could be one of two products that build on the Ion (maybe Ion 2) platform. The Apple TV being the other one.

Ion ATV + Ion tablet + new ipods would be a decent September event.
Reply
Reply
post #37 of 53
9/2/09 at 1:09pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by irnchriz View Post

Stump is an idiot. If part of your app copies the look and feel of one of Apples apps then don't expect it to pass muster.

Your statement ignores Apple's problems with communication. Communication is the key here, if they do so in a timely and respectful way then developers can decide what to do.

Also Apple WANTS YOUR APPS TO LOOK LIKE APPLE APPS!!! Why do you think they give developers the same keyboard, pop up windows, badges, etc. They want there to be a similar feel to ALL apps on the iPhone. Yet when one looks too much like an app that they find problematic, they don't want similarity of feel.

This is and will always be a problem for Apple, b/c they want to walk a tight rope between control/conformity and creativity and they want to create standards while also maintaining control. These have been, are and will be problematic, opposing desires. MS has the same problem, but works at it in totally different ways.
The Mother of all flip-flops!!
Support our troops by educating yourself and being a responsible voter. Democracy and Capitalism REQUIRE Intelligence and Wisdom if they are to be worth a damn beyond...
Reply
The Mother of all flip-flops!!
Support our troops by educating yourself and being a responsible voter. Democracy and Capitalism REQUIRE Intelligence and Wisdom if they are to be worth a damn beyond...
Reply
post #38 of 53
9/2/09 at 1:10pm
See next version of this post. Removed this one.
Reply
Reply
post #39 of 53
9/2/09 at 1:11pm
Imagine, the world's most fantastic Easter Egg...

Upon installation of Snow Leopard (or a future minor OS X upgrade), and an as yet unreleased secret key combination or Preferences option, those shiny screens on the current generation of iMacs and MacBooks were to become touch sensitive, allowing incredible multi-touch creative freedom.

Don't laugh, the iPod Touch V2 had hidden Bluetooth, something only activated almost a YEAR after it's release with iPhone OS 3. And Bluetooth is no minor feature in a music device, just as touch operation of the world's greatest creative productivity tool would also be a vital component of its functionality.

Could a company, in particular Apple, do something like this? Even unintentionally? Perhaps they held back the touch component of the OS in order to get it right, hence the odd (and controversial) decision to release glossy screens.

Am I mad?

Reply
Reply
post #40 of 53
9/2/09 at 1:15pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tofino View Post

that was my first thought too. developers getting attention by airing their dirty laundry in public. seems to work though, eh?

Do you really think that more people buy an app for it was rejected before?
count to 3 and start thinking again. any difference?
Reply
Reply
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: General Discussion
AppleInsider › Forums › General › General Discussion › Snow Leopard touchscreen "evidence," trademarked Apple chat bubbles