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Egypt open's its big Mouth... - Page 2

post #41 of 54
<strong>re: Israel v Palistine</strong>

Gentlefolk, why are you choosing sides and laying blame?

An end to the violence is wholly attainable by either side. They don't want to let go of the past.

Some questions to ponder:

Do the Palistinians just want their land?
Does "their land" equate to all of Israel?
Does Israel want to live in peace?
Is Israel satisfied with the land they have now?
Do the surrounding Islamic countries want to live in peace with Israel?
Can Muslims control their fanatics?
Can Jews control their fanatics?

The answers to these questions are dissapointing. I am however more confident that Israel can say yes. Taking sides on who's right in a half century old conflict won't help anything. They are on their 3rd generation of hate and don't care about reasons for hating each other anymore.

[ 12-14-2001: Message edited by: THT ]</p>
post #42 of 54
Thread Starter 
[quote]Originally posted by THT:
<strong>[qb]re: Israel v Palistine</strong>
The answers to these questions are dissapointing. I am however more confident that Israel can say yes. Taking sides on who's right in a half century old conflict won't help anything. They are on their 3rd generation of hate and don't care about reasons for hating each other anymore.

[ 12-14-2001: Message edited by: THT ][/QB]<hr></blockquote>

The current conflict may be a half century old, but the conflict between Isrealis and Arabs goes back much further than that. We are talking thousands of years here. There is more bad blood than just the current squabbling. But I liked your post quite a bit. Some good questions.

I think some of the answers are, Isreal wants to survive. They will do whatever it takes to do that including assassination of enemies and their leaders. I don't blame them. Their enemies want nothing short of the total destruction of Israel. It has been stated by thier leaders and their militant gorups that they let run wild. There will be peace for Israel, I gurantee it. At least 3.5 years of it. I am not sure when that will be, but it will happen. And I bet I will see it in my lifetime.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #43 of 54
Zo wrote:
Its Palestinian land. Israel, and this is also backed by the UN, invaded and is effectively OCCUPYING the territory. Do you get that? Do you understand the fact that all of a sudden your homeland gets OCCUPIED and no one in the world gives a damn? What can you do? You, unfortunately, have to start using terrorism and the such because no one will give a damn otherwise. Its horrible thing to do, but its our damn fault if we are so selfish and only pay attention to others in difficulty once its either to far or too late.

Well said, nothing to add... maybe there are other things, but terrorism looks almost human if this happens to you...
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post #44 of 54
Thread Starter 
[quote]Originally posted by sapi:
<strong>Zo wrote:
Its Palestinian land. Israel, and this is also backed by the UN, invaded and is effectively OCCUPYING the territory. Do you get that? Do you understand the fact that all of a sudden your homeland gets OCCUPIED and no one in the world gives a damn? What can you do? You, unfortunately, have to start using terrorism and the such because no one will give a damn otherwise. Its horrible thing to do, but its our damn fault if we are so selfish and only pay attention to others in difficulty once its either to far or too late.

Well said, nothing to add... maybe there are other things, but terrorism looks almost human if this happens to you...</strong><hr></blockquote>

BS. Attacking civilians is never the answer. If they were targeting military installtions and military bases they might be able to make a case for Guerilla warfare, but these are citizens riding busses and going shopping and otherwise living their lives. It looks nothing like human...
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #45 of 54
another thing to note. Isreal was created after world war two in light of what had happened to the Jews in Germany/Europe. Isreal was created to give Jewish people a country to live in where that wouldn't happen again. are you willing to go to the Jewish community and tell them that their one save haven is going to be taken away?

Isreal had existed there in the past, so it's not like one country in the reagion has a stronger claim to it than another. it just chaged hands again.

and i don't think it will ever die down.
post #46 of 54
[quote]Originally posted by sapi:
<strong>Zo wrote:
Its Palestinian land. Israel, and this is also backed by the UN, invaded and is effectively OCCUPYING the territory. Do you get that? Do you understand the fact that all of a sudden your homeland gets OCCUPIED and no one in the world gives a damn? What can you do? You, unfortunately, have to start using terrorism and the such because no one will give a damn otherwise. Its horrible thing to do, but its our damn fault if we are so selfish and only pay attention to others in difficulty once its either to far or too late.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Here's a question: when was the PLO formed? Hint: it had nothing to do with the Six Day War. Do you think that the occupation just might have something to do with Israel's legitimate security concerns? Isn't there the slightest possibility? This is what Gamal Abdu l-Nasser, then Egyptian President, was saying in the years just before the war: "We shall not enter Palestine with its soil covered in sand," he said on March 8, 1965. "We shall enter it with its soil saturated in blood." And a few months later, he spoke of "...the full restoration of the rights of the Palestinian people. In other words, we aim at the destruction of the State of Israel. The immediate aim: perfection of Arab military might. The national aim: the eradication of Israel." To this day how much of the Arab world has forsaken that goal?

BTW, most of the West Bank and Gaza are under the control of the Palestinian Authority, not Israel.
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post #47 of 54
<strong>Originally posted by NoahJ:
The current conflict may be a half century old, but the conflict between Isrealis and Arabs goes back much further than that. We are talking thousands of years here. There is more bad blood than just the current squabbling.</strong>

I don't think there is much historical conflict between Jews and Arabs, especially in the heritage of the current population of Israel and Palistine. A national identity for Jews was long shattered by the Romans before Islam swept out of the Arabian peninsula. While under the rule of the Caliphates and Ottoman empire, there wasn't much conflict between Jewish people and Arabic Muslims.

It wasn't until Hitler and the formation of Jewish Israel that "Israelis" really become militant bastards. "Never again" and all. It would be a tough psychological blow to recover from. The Palestinians lost their land, but they are playing right into Jewish psychology if they want to militarily defeat Israel.

By forcing Israel to give them civil rights through peaceful protest of the Ghandi and MLK variety, the problem pretty much works itself out. That's if they are not all religiously insane. They just won't let the past go. It's not going to help them in any way. So it's a shame.

<strong>I think some of the answers are, Isreal wants to survive. They will do whatever it takes to do that including assassination of enemies and their leaders. I don't blame them.</strong>

I think Israel is much more willing to do what's right than the Palestinians are. If the Islamic militants stop bombing, I don't think they'll reply.
post #48 of 54
[QUOTE]Originally posted by DoctorGonzo:
[QB]

&gt;Expropriating land by force is a war crime.

And BTW, Israel attacked first in the 1967 war where the West Bank, Gaza Strip and Jersusalem were seized.&lt;


Israel struck first in 1967 as a defensive first strike as Egypt and Jordan massed their forces for an imminent invasion. I don't know how old you are but you clearly don't understand the history of the region.

..................................................

&gt;Bin Laden's motivations are nothing compared with what motivates the masses that form his resiviors of support. In that case, I place the blame on Israel. If they didn't treat the Palestineans like vermin, psychos like Bin Laden wouldn't have so many people to call on for help.&lt;

The Israelis could use better police tactics, however, how exactly do their Arab 'brothers' treat Palestinians? They have made the Palestinians rot in camps in Lebanon simply to use as a bargaining chip against Israel. The Arabs know there is no way that they will ever go back to Israeli land so they could have relocated them to other Arab countries, who have so much land mass as to make Israel look like a thumbtac..........................................
post #49 of 54
[QUOTE]Originally posted by ZO:
[QB]

HAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHA... what a joke.

US Press is RUN by Jewish people. Want an example of how *&$!@! biased CNN and others are of Israel? Check this out. I am subscribed to CNN Breaking news email alerts. When various Palestinian leaders, etc got ASSASSINATED (or as Israel likes to say 'targeted killings' or whatever it is they like to call it) in these recent months, I never got ONE SINGLE ALERT. When a few weeks ago one of the members of the israeli government got killed (minister of tourism I believe), I got FOUR breaking news emails in 10 minutes. I barely go that many when the frikken WTC was hit!!!!


Jews run the press? You must be a huge fan of Henry Ford. Ted Turner is not Jewish, is he? Steve Case is not Jewish, is he? What a stupid comment.

And are you comparing the assination of a terrorist equivalent to the assasination of a government elected official? Apparently you are.
..................................................


&gt;Also, if you want litterature, read Gassan Kanafani. He wrote poems and stories that he witnessed in the fifties and sixties of Israeli soliders and militia going into small towns and simply raping, mutilating, torturing, and murdering entire small towns that were comprised of a few families. Then come and tell me that its the Palestians who are the animals. Its Palestinian land. Israel, and this is also backed by the UN, invaded and is effectively OCCUPYING the territory. Do you get that? Do you understand the fact that all of a sudden your homeland gets OCCUPIED and no one in the world gives a damn? What can you do? You, unfortunately, have to start using terrorism and the such because no one will give a damn otherwise. Its horrible thing to do, but its our damn fault if we are so selfish and only pay attention to others in difficulty once its either to far or too late.&gt;

ONE guy tells a story and that makes it correct? Not one news agency here or abroad knew about this supposed attack? Are you for real?

Israel has been trying to exchange the land they won in 1967 for peace ever since they occupied them. Where exactly have you been?
..................................................

&gt;Its a horrible situation from either side, Israeli or Palestinian, but I have to express my OWN opinion, its Israel that is wrong in this whole affair. And the US just keeps plugging them up with all the latest weapons and technology... no wonder Palestians have to resort to terrorism... they don't have Cobra or Apache helicopters, nor tanks or F-16 fighters. They have rocks and machine guns and a few rpgs at most.&lt;

The Palestinian terrorists killed Americans also or have you conveniently forgotten that point? All Arafat had to do was accept the overgenerous peace terms handed out by barak and none of this would be happening. Even European leaders couldn't believe Arafat turned down the offer.
..................................................

&gt;Mr Sharon, a pro-war fascist if I ever saw one, wants war and IS THE CAUSE of the breakdown of the balance that was working out for the last few years. He BLATENTLY knew that visiting that Mosque (sorry, forgot the name) last Summer would have infuriated the Palestinian population, and what did he do? Went anyway. The government collapsed a few weeks later and, of surprise, Mr Sharon gets to head the government. &gt;

How could Israel ever hand land over to a people that will not let Israelis pray at their holy sites? He didn't visit a mosque, he visited a jewish site that was adjacent to a muslim site. Israel could have done what the Arabs did to Jewish sites and bulldoze them, but thats not what Israelis do. Sharon was elected because the peace process was ended by Arafat and Barak wasn't tough enough. Read the current issue of Newsweek where one of Arafats deputies said that Arafat should have acted against Hamas and Jihad from the beginning before it became too late. Arafat gave the green light for the violence in order to try to get more concessions from Israel. He does this EVERY time they are close to an agreement.
..................................................
post #50 of 54
Sharon is not only bombing the very Police stations that the Palestinian Authority would need to use if they were to lock up the terrorists Israel wants them to, he also says Arafat is "directly responsible" for the latest attrocity in which 10 Israelis were killed. Fair enough, a hideous crime, but the Israelis no longer talk to him because he is "irrelevant".
Can't have it both ways
As an aside, whilst Sharon was Defence Minister for Israel in 1982, he was found "personally responsible" for the massacre of 1800 civilians in refugee camps in Sabre and Chatila by the Israeli Kahan investigation (1983) and was forced to resign, charges of war crimes which are now pending in Belgian courts.
As for his peace credentials, he voted against the peace treaty with Egypt in 1979. He voted against a withdrawal from southern Lebanon in 1985. He opposed Israel's participation in the Madrid peace conference in 1991. He opposed the Knesset plenum vote on the Oslo agreement in 1993. He abstained on a vote for peace with Jordan in 1994. He voted against the Hebron agreement in 1997. He condemned the manner of Israel's retreat from Lebanon in 2000. He is now building Jewish settlements on occupied Arab land in total violation of international law - at a faster rate than his predecessor.
post #51 of 54
[quote]Originally posted by roundFood:
<strong>
As an aside, whilst Sharon was Defence Minister for Israel in 1982, he was found "personally responsible" for the massacre of 1800 civilians in refugee camps in Sabre and Chatila by the Israeli Kahan investigation (1983) and was forced to resign, charges of war crimes which are now pending in Belgian courts.</strong><hr></blockquote>

That massacre was done by Lebanese Christians.

[quote]The Lebanese Christian Phalangist militia was responsible for the massacres that occurred at the two Beirut-area refugee camps on September 16-17, 1982. Israeli troops allowed the Phalangists to enter Sabra and Shatila to root out terrorist cells believed located there. It had been estimated that there may have been up to 200 armed men in the camps working out of the countless bunkers built by the PLO over the years, and stocked with generous reserves of ammunition.

When Israeli soldiers ordered the Phalangists out, they found hundreds dead (estimates range from 460 according to the Lebanese police, to 700-800 calculated by Israeli intelligence). The dead, according to the Lebanese account, included 35 women and children. The rest were men: Palestinians, Lebanese, Pakistanis, Iranians, Syrians and Algerians. The killings came on top of an estimated 95,000 deaths that had occurred during the civil war in Lebanon from 1975-1982.

The killings were perpetrated to avenge the murders of Lebanese President Bashir Gemayel and 25 of his followers, killed in a bomb attack earlier that week.

Israel had allowed the Phalange to enter the camps as part of a plan to transfer authority to the Lebanese, and accepted responsibility for that decision. The Kahan Commission of Inquiry, formed by the Israeli government in response to public outrage and grief, found that Israel was indirectly responsible for not anticipating the possibility of Phalangist violence. Israel instituted the panel's recommendations, including the dismissal of Defense Minister Ariel Sharon and Gen. Raful Eitan, the Army Chief of Staff.<hr></blockquote>

<a href="http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/Sabra_&_Shatila.html" target="_blank">source</a>
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post #52 of 54
It was my understanding the palestinian people were originally kicked out of india for terrorism there in the late 1890's/ early 1900's and were inserted into the mideast. they were there about 50 years. Israel has occupied it about as long now. Possesion is 9/10ths the law? i dunno.
post #53 of 54
roger ramjet,
I know the Phalangists carried out the massacres at Sabra and Chatila but the Israeli army was running the show, kind of like the US and the Northern Alliance, and that is why the (Israeli) Kahan investigation found Sharon to be personally responsible, that was all.
post #54 of 54
[quote]Originally posted by roundFood:
<strong>roger ramjet,
I know the Phalangists carried out the massacres at Sabra and Chatila...</strong><hr></blockquote>

You may have known that but you didn't write it.
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