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Court allows Microsoft to keep selling Word during appeal

post #1 of 43
Thread Starter 
Microsoft's request to an appeals court that the company be able to sell its popular software Word during an ongoing appeal was granted this week.

The U.S Court of Appeals for the Federal Circuit issued a ruling Thursday that granted a stay to Microsoft on an injunction from August that banned the software maker from selling word.

"Without prejudicing the ultimate determination of this case by the merits panel, the court determines based on the motion papers submitted that Microsoft has met its burden to obtain a stay of the injunction," the ruling from the office of Clerk of Court Jan Horbaly said.

Last month, after Judge Leonard Davis in the U.S. District Court in Eastern Texas sided with the plaintiff, i4i Inc., in a patent dispute, Microsoft appealed the judge's decision to place an injunction on the sale of Word, part of the company's Office suite available for both PC and Mac. The ruling would have gone into effect 60 days after it was signed, had the U.S. Court of Appeals not overturned the judge's decision during the appeal process.

The patent case stems from the ability of Word to open .XML, .DOCX and .DOCM files, which are based on custom XML. i4i, in its suit against Microsoft, has alleged that it owns patents related to the reading of XML files, and asserts that the Redmond, Wash., software giant is in violation of those patents.

The original ruling applied to all versions of Word that can read XML, including Word 2003, Word 2007, and presumably the upcoming Microsoft Office 2008 for Mac Business Edition, due to launch Sept. 15. Apple's rival to the north also intends to launch Office 2010 for Mac late next year.

In the ongoing suit, filed in 2007, Microsoft has been ordered to pay more than $290 million in damages to i4i, according to PC World. Both parties are scheduled to take part in a court hearing on Sept. 23.

post #2 of 43
Apple needs to do a much better job at promoting iWork. As a recent switcher, I thought I absolutely must have Office, even if the Office for Mac version. What crap both Office for Windoze and Office for Mac are! Luckily I was smart enough when ordering my Macbook to have iWork preinstalled, since I like to experiment with software anyway. I know this is preaching to the choir, but I am totally impressed with iWork. No compatibility issues at all, much less clutter, better use of panels (rather than the uber annoying "ribbons) and Pages doesn't have the mind numbing formatting/spacing problems of Word and you can open two fully separate windows with difference Keynote presentations, something that can't be done with Powerpuke.

So, Apple, on the "to do" list, please bump up "promote iWork as viable alternative to Office".

Your loyal convert.
post #3 of 43
Better than my Bose, better than my Skullcandy's, listening to Mozart through my LeBron James limited edition PowerBeats by Dre is almost as good as my Sennheisers.
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Better than my Bose, better than my Skullcandy's, listening to Mozart through my LeBron James limited edition PowerBeats by Dre is almost as good as my Sennheisers.
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post #4 of 43
Dog bites man!
post #5 of 43
>> So, Apple, on the "to do" list, please bump up "promote iWork as viable alternative to Office".

iWork is not an alternative to Office; OpenOffice.org is an alternative to Office. iWork is useful for several specific tasks but is not a general purpose word processing software.
post #6 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by fulldecent View Post

>> So, Apple, on the "to do" list, please bump up "promote iWork as viable alternative to Office".

iWork is not an alternative to Office; OpenOffice.org is an alternative to Office. iWork is useful for several specific tasks but is not a general purpose word processing software.

Actually, Pages certainly is useful for general purposes. It also does page layout. There are, however, a few specific functions in Word that people seem to need, or at least think they need.
post #7 of 43
Quote:
but is not a general purpose word processing software

Huh? Pages does everything I've ever done in Word plus things I had to use Publisher for. A few specific examples of how it is not "general purpose word processing software" would be helpful. THe only thing I haven't been able to do is use pre-packaged mailing labels, but there might even be an app for that I haven't found yet.
post #8 of 43
As much as I would love to have the courts keep MS form selling their product since we know they steal ideas all the time, this is just another idiotic patent.

These is no unique idea or thought behind writing software that reads a particular file format and interrupting it so it can be display, this is done all the time. It not like no one with a programing back ground could not figure this out, it is one the very first thing you learn as a programmer is read a file of data and translate so it can be displayed in a meaningful way.
post #9 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by fulldecent View Post

>> So, Apple, on the "to do" list, please bump up "promote iWork as viable alternative to Office".

iWork is not an alternative to Office; OpenOffice.org is an alternative to Office. iWork is useful for several specific tasks but is not a general purpose word processing software.

sadly they all suck and openoffice is the worst among them. what a pos that java monster is.
post #10 of 43
A bit off topic, but as far as Office vs iWork goes...

My niece is about to purchase a MBP for school, and our first reaction was that she'll need Office for her reports and presentations. I know iWork can open and save Office files, but I couldn't find the answers to a few specific questions on Apple's site.

- Can you set Pages and Keynote to automatically save as Word and PPT every time so she doesn't have to remember to do it?
- Can iWork work with the Reviewing features of Office? She may need to submit a paper in Word format, and the professor may use MS's Reviewing toolbar to add comments/corrections when grading papers, or a friend may use it when proof-reading her paper for her. Can Pages view and add those annotations and corrections in Word files?

Has anyone here used iWork in a college setting, and how has it worked out? I'd like to set her up with iWork to avoid the bloat and expense of Office, but Office is tolerable if it avoids potential problems.
post #11 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by thanx_al View Post

Apple needs to do a much better job at promoting iWork. As a recent switcher, I thought I absolutely must have Office, even if the Office for Mac version. What crap both Office for Windoze and Office for Mac are! Luckily I was smart enough when ordering my Macbook to have iWork preinstalled, since I like to experiment with software anyway. I know this is preaching to the choir, but I am totally impressed with iWork. No compatibility issues at all, much less clutter, better use of panels (rather than the uber annoying "ribbons) and Pages doesn't have the mind numbing formatting/spacing problems of Word and you can open two fully separate windows with difference Keynote presentations, something that can't be done with Powerpuke.

So, Apple, on the "to do" list, please bump up "promote iWork as viable alternative to Office".

Your loyal convert.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thanx_al View Post

Huh? Pages does everything I've ever done in Word plus things I had to use Publisher for. A few specific examples of how it is not "general purpose word processing software" would be helpful. THe only thing I haven't been able to do is use pre-packaged mailing labels, but there might even be an app for that I haven't found yet.


Second that.

While writing my PhD dissertation, I had a hard time dealing with Word poor handling of figures and text boxes (quite understandably because of lack of page layout feature). So I tried Pages and boy, what a joy Pages was. What a butter smooth handling of text boxes and figures. Yes there were few quirks like putting references in endnotes (even that is sorted out with the current version) and few things which Word is very robust at, but you know what, most of us don't need it or could sacrifice in terms of ease of use.

In a collaborative environment, we have to use Word while writing grants and papers. Believe me, even using publisher lay out format in Word 2008 for Mac does not help. I miss Pages (using pages and exporting as doc format does not help, btw).
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Zune zucks...Flop show...then it may be too zoon to say that
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post #12 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by fulldecent View Post

>> So, Apple, on the "to do" list, please bump up "promote iWork as viable alternative to Office".

iWork is not an alternative to Office; OpenOffice.org is an alternative to Office. iWork is useful for several specific tasks but is not a general purpose word processing software.


I am using NeoOffice (because Apple discontinued the free Appleworks), which converted OpenOffice for Mac's before OpenOffice.org did, but now it seems both parties are essentially doing the same thing, so I guess I'm going to have to switch to OpenOffice, good thing the files are compatible.


Office type software is so common today, the files easily converted, unless one needs something very powerful or specialized, it really doesn't make any sense to pay a lot for it. They all basically work the same, they all use a GUI and once you learn one, you can use either one with little trouble.

Open Office is great for students, why buy when you can learn and use for free? (donations of course). Let the company you go work for (if there are any jobs) pay for the expensive Office from Microsloth. Office software has a short learning curve anyway. Now Photoshop is a different story, the more experience one has on that the better, so perhaps it's best to buy that early.

Also I rather save the money and buy the new "It's only rock and roll" iPods coming out very shortly.

I'm already saving money not paying $80 a month for lousy AT&T service for a 2 year iPhone contract, enough to buy me a nice new 15" MATTE screen MacBook Pro. Thank You Steve Jobs.



Open Office pictures and features.

http://www.openoffice.org/dev_docs/features/3.0/
The danger is that we sleepwalk into a world where cabals of corporations control not only the mainstream devices and the software on them, but also the entire ecosystem of online services around...
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The danger is that we sleepwalk into a world where cabals of corporations control not only the mainstream devices and the software on them, but also the entire ecosystem of online services around...
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post #13 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wiggin View Post

A bit off topic, but as far as Office vs iWork goes...

My niece is about to purchase a MBP for school, and our first reaction was that she'll need Office for her reports and presentations. I know iWork can open and save Office files, but I couldn't find the answers to a few specific questions on Apple's site.

- Can you set Pages and Keynote to automatically save as Word and PPT every time so she doesn't have to remember to do it?
- Can iWork work with the Reviewing features of Office? She may need to submit a paper in Word format, and the professor may use MS's Reviewing toolbar to add comments/corrections when grading papers, or a friend may use it when proof-reading her paper for her. Can Pages view and add those annotations and corrections in Word files?

Has anyone here used iWork in a college setting, and how has it worked out? I'd like to set her up with iWork to avoid the bloat and expense of Office, but Office is tolerable if it avoids potential problems.

I work as a consultant extensively with word for windows documents on the Mac, Mac version does not have VB macros and sometimes crashes.

Formatting is a bit different, and the handling of the revisions too.

But maybe in a college environment that's not a problem.

It seems you could not default Pages to save word documents.

My suggestion: try first with iWork, if necessary, buy also Office. iWork is less powerful (I use also numbers) but iwork apps are "more beautiful".

just my 2c

ps:my believe is that KeyNote is "far better" from PPT, but I just use PPT on my Mac ...
post #14 of 43
In the eyes of " Justice " all are equal. But some are perhaps more equal than others.

HT
post #15 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by thanx_al View Post

Apple needs to do a much better job at promoting iWork. As a recent switcher, I thought I absolutely must have Office, even if the Office for Mac version. What crap both Office for Windoze and Office for Mac are! Luckily I was smart enough when ordering my Macbook to have iWork preinstalled, since I like to experiment with software anyway. I know this is preaching to the choir, but I am totally impressed with iWork. No compatibility issues at all, much less clutter, better use of panels (rather than the uber annoying "ribbons) and Pages doesn't have the mind numbing formatting/spacing problems of Word and you can open two fully separate windows with difference Keynote presentations, something that can't be done with Powerpuke.

So, Apple, on the "to do" list, please bump up "promote iWork as viable alternative to Office".

Your loyal convert.

I don't know... I don't feel Apple is really dedicated to their iWork software. Last time I checked, you couldn't do mail merging with the numbers spreadsheet. It would be nice to have a program like a watered down File Maker Pro or Access built in for little personal databases too.

I primarily use iWork (Pages) for creating concert programs and promotional posters/postcards, but there are a lot of things that it cannot do. I can't think of them all, but typing on a curve or in a circle would be nice.

Something is up with the PDF export too... I always lose the shadows when printing and sometimes when I fill a shape with an image, the wrong image shows up in the shape.
post #16 of 43
I love Pages because it handles advanced typography so well. I get to make full use of all the features of my expensive fonts - ligatures, advanced ligatures, old-style characters, you name it.
post #17 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wiggin View Post

- Can you set Pages and Keynote to automatically save as Word and PPT every time so she doesn't have to remember to do it?

No, but then no other application does this (with the exception of the Office clones), so I wonder why anyone expects Pages or Keynote to behave this way. The different file formats represent different sets of features.

Quote:
- Can iWork work with the Reviewing features of Office? She may need to submit a paper in Word format, and the professor may use MS's Reviewing toolbar to add comments/corrections when grading papers, or a friend may use it when proof-reading her paper for her. Can Pages view and add those annotations and corrections in Word files?

If you are referring to Track Changes, then the answer is yes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by donlphi View Post

Something is up with the PDF export too... I always lose the shadows when printing and sometimes when I fill a shape with an image, the wrong image shows up in the shape.

On the shadow printing, I think the culprit must be your printer driver -- especially if it happens all the time.
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post #18 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

Court allows Microsoft to keep selling Word during appeal

Money always wins.
post #19 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by OriginalMacRat View Post

Money always wins.

This kind of injunction rarely stands, and is probably not meant to. It's really a message from the judge to Microsoft to get serious about settling.
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post #20 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by OriginalMacRat View Post

Money always wins.

If MS lose the case, aren't they going to get hit with having to pay out to i4i based, partly, on the volume of sales of MS Word? if so it's in i4i's interest to have MS selling MS Word anyway... and if i4i were to lose maybe they'd get sued by MS for lost sales, so again it's in i4i's interest to allow MS Word to carry on awaiting an outcome; isn't it?
post #21 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quadra 610 View Post

Actually, Pages certainly is useful for general purposes. It also does page layout. There are, however, a few specific functions in Word that people seem to need, or at least think they need.

I REALLY wanted iWork to become my office software as my intention was to keep a pure-Apple laptop. After Pages and Numbers had spectacularly failed to open or print or allow me to modify seamlessly documents that people send me or I must send to others, I tried OpenOffice. OpenOffice was a definite improvement over iWork but still fails too often. When we are talking about OpenOffice mangling my CV just before I need to print it or iWork mangling my invoices before I need to show them to the tax man, I end up back with Microsoft.

I'm super-happy with my Mac's stability, performance, security and backup. Just great and such a relief after Windows, but where I used to waste time and money on those (critical) things, I now waste them on document compatibility.

Many of the most important software concepts were invented in the 70s and forgotten in the 80s.

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Many of the most important software concepts were invented in the 70s and forgotten in the 80s.

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post #22 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by PXT View Post

I REALLY wanted iWork to become my office software as my intention was to keep a pure-Apple laptop. After Pages and Numbers had spectacularly failed to open or print or allow me to modify seamlessly documents that people send me or I must send to others, I tried OpenOffice. OpenOffice was a definite improvement over iWork but still fails too often. When we are talking about OpenOffice mangling my CV just before I need to print it or iWork mangling my invoices before I need to show them to the tax man, I end up back with Microsoft.

I'm super-happy with my Mac's stability, performance, security and backup. Just great and such a relief after Windows, but where I used to waste time and money on those (critical) things, I now waste them on document compatibility.

If maximizing your compatibility with Office is really your only priority, then you are stuck with Office. Forever.

I hope you love it.
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post #23 of 43
this court needs to have the doors and windows bricked shut. it is a disgrace. they will entertain any ridiculous patent infringement suit. how's about a little discretion?
post #24 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by natureboyuta View Post

this court needs to have the doors and windows bricked shut. it is a disgrace. they will entertain any ridiculous patent infringement suit. how's about a little discretion?

So you know for a fact that this lawsuit is ridiculous? And you will tell us how and why, right?
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post #25 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by natureboyuta View Post

this court needs to have the doors and windows bricked shut. it is a disgrace. they will entertain any ridiculous patent infringement suit. how's about a little discretion?

MS was found to have wilfully infringed by a jury.

i4i has, and conintues to use their patent. Seems they have a case.

I see no lack of discretion here. It looks like classic patent infringement, and MS got caught.
post #26 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by thanx_al View Post

Apple needs to do a much better job at promoting iWork. As a recent switcher, I thought I absolutely must have Office, even if the Office for Mac version. What crap both Office for Windoze and Office for Mac are! Luckily I was smart enough when ordering my Macbook to have iWork preinstalled, since I like to experiment with software anyway. I know this is preaching to the choir, but I am totally impressed with iWork. No compatibility issues at all, much less clutter, better use of panels (rather than the uber annoying "ribbons) and Pages doesn't have the mind numbing formatting/spacing problems of Word and you can open two fully separate windows with difference Keynote presentations, something that can't be done with Powerpuke.

So, Apple, on the "to do" list, please bump up "promote iWork as viable alternative to Office".

Your loyal convert.

Amen, I chucked word out of the window after a moth of using the lean, beautifully designed and user friendly pages after switching. Any people that actually use a computer to write fiction or non fiction would be much better suited with pages. And I do agree if apple were more aggressive there they would get a sizable chunk from ms, but maybe it's part of a tacit agreement with ms to not pursue it aggressively.

Open office... what a train wreck, well handy in covering all the bases that word does, but downright ugly, can't stomach it despite trying really hard to.

Ah, and microsoft copied someone off?

Really?
post #27 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Millmoss View Post

So you know for a fact that this lawsuit is ridiculous? And you will tell us how and why, right?

Well, you are clearly telling us that you side with "the right to sue" crowd, which is responsible for all the insanity in the US legal system.

Software patents need to be banned. So what if MS uses XML? So what!

Do you know there is a company named OMEGA in the US that sells low quality car alarms and would have gone bankrupt by now had they not obtained patents on quite nearly everything related to automotive CAN-BUS communication? They still build car alarms but their main revenue-generation "business" consists of suing companies to get royalties over their ridiculous patents. How can someone patent the "use of CAN-BUS" in automobiles? And yet, OMEGA has been granted rights by the patent office to do just that. And now they make money suing anyone and everyone over the use of 3rd part CAN-BUS products in cars. (For example, they have a patent that covers any device that rolls up a car window via CAN-BUS. Seriously!) And this is just one example of hundreds.

Filing for patents isn't to "protect inventions" anymore. It's done to ambush successful companies who are willing to get their hands dirty in the marketplace, stealing hundreds of millions of dollars from them via the courts. It's legalized extortion. Sadly, most Americans are apathetic and refuse to stop it. We need to write our representatives in Congress to create new legislation to ban this practice, and we need to create some grass-roots organizations to hound companies who making their living off suing. And I say all this with no excessive love toward MS. The same nuts who sue MS also sue our beloved Apple too.
post #28 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by JDW View Post

Well, you are clearly telling us that you side with "the right to sue" crowd, which is responsible for all the insanity in the US legal system...

The right to sue is fundamental to any civil legal system; if you can't see that I suggest you shouldn't comment on things you don't understand.
post #29 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by mpw View Post

The right to sue is fundamental to any civil legal system; if you can't see that I suggest you shouldn't comment on things you don't understand.

Congratulations on having successfully passed the BAR, joining the ranks of Abraham Lincoln himself, one of the five most admired lawyers in American history. To be sure, with only 1.1 million practicing attorneys in the US, the less fortunate are certain go without adequate legal options. We must therefore strive to boost the number of legal defenders to at least 1 for every 2 citizens in the Land of the Free. Anything less would be an insult to one's most sacred and fundamental right, to sue.

Perhaps it is now appropriate that we Mac users unit in our beep sound selection: sosume.

"My daddy is a movie actor, and sometimes he plays the good guy, and sometimes he plays the lawyer."
Malcolm Ford, on what his father Harrison Ford does for a living
post #30 of 43
I think everyone can see that you are substituting insults and other snarky remarks for actual answers to actual questions. If you can't tell us why this particular lawsuit is, in your words, "ridiculous," then perhaps you ought to cut the smartass approach.
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post #31 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Millmoss View Post

So you know for a fact that this lawsuit is ridiculous? And you will tell us how and why, right?

Prior art and the USPTO has a horrendously bad track record of granting trivial software patents and letting the courts figure it out. This is in direct response to forcing them to grant software patents in the first place which they didn't really want to do. So they've been doing a crappy job ever since.

Come on...using XML to store a document content separate from formatting? Please. SGML since 1970 had style sheets. One of the primary uses of XML has always been metadata and formatting.
post #32 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post

Prior art and the USPTO has a horrendously bad track record of granting trivial software patents and letting the courts figure it out. This is in direct response to forcing them to grant software patents in the first place which they didn't really want to do. So they've been doing a crappy job ever since.

Come on...using XML to store a document content separate from formatting? Please. SGML since 1970 had style sheets. One of the primary uses of XML has always been metadata and formatting.

I'm aware of these issues, but to brand any given patent infringement suit as ridiculous without demonstrating any knowledge of the actual patents involved strikes me as agenda-driven. We should be aware that quite a few people are just plain hostile to intellectual property rights. Clearly one poster here is. This is an ideological position, not a legal one -- just so we know.

The courts have to decide these matters on a legal and factual basis. I know they don't always get it "right" but they have a better grasp on the issues than someone with an agenda who comes here to spout off without providing any support whatsoever for their opinions.
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post #33 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Millmoss View Post

...to brand any given patent infringement suit as ridiculous without demonstrating any knowledge of the actual patents involved strikes me as agenda-driven.

Unfortunately, this statement is rather misleading as it would have the reader believe that the Dr.'s position is somehow not linked to or driven by any agenda whatsoever.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Millmoss View Post

We should be aware that quite a few people are just plain hostile to intellectual property rights.

A statement which indicates the Dr. does not agree with (and perhaps even on some level is hostile toward) individuals who are "just plain hostile to IP rights."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Millmoss View Post

This is an ideological position, not a legal one -- just so we know.

And just so we know how very complex and contentious the connection between law and ideology truly is, let us not fail to explore further reading on the matter:
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/law-ideology/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Millmoss View Post

The courts have to decide these matters on a legal and factual basis. I know they don't always get it "right" but they have a better grasp on the issues than someone with an agenda who comes here to spout off...

A clear and most excellent revelation of the Dr.'s own agenda, consisting of a defense of the legal status quo in America.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Millmoss View Post

...without providing any support whatsoever for their opinions.

There are those among us, quite educated to be sure, who require exhaustive evidence and explanations when discussing a topic, even concerning those issues which others may feel "go without saying." Then there are yet other educated individuals who prefer to exercise common sense, sometimes backed by wisdom, to assess and come to a conclusion on a given situation without the need for a lengthy dissertation on a given matter. In the context of this thread, the former group appears to believe that our system, while not perfect, is quite good and should be largely left alone. The latter group sees fundamental problems in the system and seeks change. The former group would also appear to believe that their numbers are greater than that of the latter group, and they very well may be correct in concluding that.
post #34 of 43
Oh, good grief.
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post #35 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by JDW View Post

Unfortunately, this statement is rather misleading as it would have the reader believe that the Dr.'s position is somehow not linked to or driven by any agenda whatsoever.


A statement which indicates the Dr. does not agree with (and perhaps even on some level is hostile toward) individuals who are "just plain hostile to IP rights."


And just so we know how very complex and contentious the connection between law and ideology truly is, let us not fail to explore further reading on the matter:
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/law-ideology/


A clear and most excellent revelation of the Dr.'s own agenda, consisting of a defense of the legal status quo in America.



There are those among us, quite educated to be sure, who require exhaustive evidence and explanations when discussing a topic, even concerning those issues which others may feel "go without saying." Then there are yet other educated individuals who prefer to exercise common sense, sometimes backed by wisdom, to assess and come to a conclusion on a given situation without the need for a lengthy dissertation on a given matter. In the context of this thread, the former group appears to believe that our system, while not perfect, is quite good and should be largely left alone. The latter group sees fundamental problems in the system and seeks change. The former group would also appear to believe that their numbers are greater than that of the latter group, and they very well may be correct in concluding that.

While educated, it doesn't seem that you answered the original question. You must be a politician. I could give a crap either way about the lawsuit, but your argument has no point. You are just typing things in just to see them on screen. Go somewhere else and blab about nothing, or tell us how and why you think the lawsuit is "ridiculous."
post #36 of 43
When I read this I'm wondering how much is Microsoft paying the Judge?
post #37 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by JDW View Post

Congratulations on having successfully passed the BAR, joining the ranks of Abraham Lincoln himself, one of the five most admired lawyers in American history. To be sure, with only 1.1 million practicing attorneys in the US, the less fortunate are certain go without adequate legal options. We must therefore strive to boost the number of legal defenders to at least 1 for every 2 citizens in the Land of the Free. Anything less would be an insult to one's most sacred and fundamental right, to sue...

You're CONFUSED; I never claimed to have passed, taken or even studied for the bar exam.

I've no idea what the optimum ratio would be, but I don't think that having a defence lawyer for every two citizens makes much sense, in fact I think your suggestion is a very bad idea, as it would mean very little work for those lawyers and if achieved the economy and society would suffer in many ways. Surely you not so stupid to be able to see this?

I don't think having a more sensible ratio would be insulting to anybody, after all not everybody in in need at the same time of the legal service, and most lawyers will have more than one client at a time anyway.

I think perhaps you need to think a little more be making such daft suggestions, as they only go to making you look kinda stupid.
post #38 of 43
Excel has no equal in the world of spreadsheets. There has been a lack of innovation in all MS Office products IMHO.

I haven't used MS Word in many, many years since I switched to the Mac actually. I use Nisus Writer Pro. I will use Pages on occasion and have found it to be very good. I have thought about dropping NWP in favor of Pages, but I like the folks as Nisus.
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post #39 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by aplnub View Post

Excel has no equal in the world of spreadsheets. There has been a lack of innovation in all MS Office products IMHO.

I haven't used MS Word in many, many years since I switched to the Mac actually. I use Nisus Writer Pro. I will use Pages on occasion and have found it to be very good. I have thought about dropping NWP in favor of Pages, but I like the folks as Nisus.

You are all of course forgetting LaTeX (free, and with a nice Mac front end, TeXShop). If writing documents in a style that looks a bit like writing computer code is your thing, it's pretty good. I was an early MS Word adopter and an early dropper. Markup languages are so 1970s but at least LaTex:
  • has never destroyed a source document on me
  • has a great layout engine
  • can do equations and other mathematical stuff properly
  • has a well-defined system of cross-referencing and numbering that you can reprogram
  • allows you to change overall document style quickly and easily
  • handles references and citations automatically in a lot of styles
The only WYSIWYG program Ive used thats close in features and robustness is FrameMaker but sadly Adobe has not seen fit to develop it further for the Mac and it's absurdly expensive for other platforms. Aside from a few user interface oddities the Mac version wasn't too bad and could handle encyclopaedia-length documents. Having been the route of Word being sort of OK in early versions and getting progressively worse after 5.1, I tried FM for a while then gave up and went back to the 1970s. My worst recent experience with Word was reformatting my PhD thesis to set it up for sale on Amazon. I wanted to add grey boxes at the end of each chapter commenting on how the world had changed since 1996. Word would not print a top border on the box if it was the first thing on the page no matter what I did.

Back on topic: I doubt very much this patent makes any kind of sense. I have yet to see a software patent that does. If anyone has evidence to the contrary, post it here. That would be more informative than asking what's wrong with this patent, and certainly a first for me.

Philip Machanick creator of Opinionations and Green Grahamstown
Department of Computer Science, Rhodes University, South Africa

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Philip Machanick creator of Opinionations and Green Grahamstown
Department of Computer Science, Rhodes University, South Africa

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post #40 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by philipm View Post

Back on topic: I doubt very much this patent makes any kind of sense. I have yet to see a software patent that does. If anyone has evidence to the contrary, post it here. That would be more informative than asking what's wrong with this patent, and certainly a first for me.

Since software can be patented, I think it's incumbent on someone who thinks it never makes sense to explain why it never makes sense. Just saying so does not make it so.
Please don't be insane.
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Please don't be insane.
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