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Obama's Joint Session on Healthcare - Page 2

post #41 of 190
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

That does happen but it doesn't mean we should ignore it.

As long as you realize that by doing so you'll damn folks for racism when it's actually a political difference.
post #42 of 190
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stinkbug View Post

The speech was an utter failure. Only a 20 point jump in the polls. It really should have been a 20.5 point jump. Obama is a failure.

Before you get too excited about poll numbers (which are suspect immediately after things like this anyway...since once people take a step back and actually start thinking and seeing the details rather than just feeling the HOPE and CHANGE, they reconsider), here's CNN's take on it:

Quote:
Sixty-seven percent of people questioned in the survey say the support Obama's health care reform proposals that the president outlined in his address, with 29 percent opposed. Those figures are almost identical to a poll conducted immediately after Bill Clinton's health care speech before Congress in September, 1993*.

The audience for the speech appears to be more Democratic than the U.S. population as a whole. Because of this, the results may favor Obama simply because more Democrats than Republicans tune into the speech. The poll surveyed the opinions of people who watched Wednesday night's speech, and does not reflect the views of all Americans.

*And we know how that ended.
post #43 of 190
Quote:
Originally Posted by involuntary_serf View Post

Before you get too excited about poll numbers...

http://newsbusters.org/blogs/matthew...wed-democratic

Quote:
Originally Posted by MRC President

CNN has no business airing a poll that is straight partisan reaction from those already in the can for ObamaCare. Caveat or no caveat, CNN was dead wrong to run this and on national television proclaim, We have important numbers here. It is an embarrassment that their news directors deemed it newsworthy to begin with. This network simply cannot be trusted to cover this hugely important story fairly.

Quote:
CNN/Opinion Research Corporations poll on President Obamas health care speech to Congress on Wednesday significantly oversampled Democrats. The pollsters interviewed 427 Americans before and after their speech- only 18% were Republicans, while 45% were Democrats

Quote:
CNNs senior political correspondent Candy Crowley detailed the polls results on Anderson Cooper 360 less than an hour after the President delivered his speech on Wednesday evening, and the following morning on the American Morning program. Both times, she noted the oversampling of Democrats. She led her analysis on AC360 with a disclaimer: Let- let me just sort of caveat this to death before we do it, and that is that- first of all, these are just people who watched the speech...It also skews heavily Democratic. We think that the Democratic sample in this flash poll is eight to 10 points higher than it is in the general population.
post #44 of 190
Quote:
Originally Posted by involuntary_serf View Post

I didn't dispute the numbers, only the conclusion that people opposing the health care proposals are doing so because of race.




Fine. Go look at the statistics. The poor (and blacks in particular) fare far worse under these things.




Look harder then.




This is your opinion, likely conditioned by years of assuming that "if the government won't do it ain't nobody gonna do it" not to mention either an unawareness or deliberate denial that government actions do (and often) have negative consequences that end up doing exactly the opposite of their good intentions.




I think it's a red herring. But have fun with it.




Maybe. Maybe not. But the implication that this is the core or majority or even significant portion of the opposition is a highly dubious (and yet to be supported by any facts or evidence) claim.




Why, so we can avoid talking about the real problems with the plans?

Racist smacist. This is smoke and mirrors. Show me something real and reliable that shows that a majority or even a significant portion of the opposition to these proposals is driven by race and then we can talk. At this point its just a dubious claim.

"Some" people (highlighting the word 'some'!) are racially motivated. The racial impact shouldn't be over emphasized or under emphasized. What we know is that racial attitudes effect decision making and that is most definitely a factor with healthcare reform, especially as Obama is half black too.

What impact does this stuff have on peoples views of Obama's healthcare reforms? I'd say a substantial effect. This might convince you in 28 secs - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MI_0Kt_e3Go
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post #45 of 190
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taskiss View Post

As long as you realize that by doing so you'll damn folks for racism when it's actually a political difference.

That's an odd assertion and I wouldn't have expected you to punch low like that. There's a healthy debate to be had and that should include race, not exclude it.
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post #46 of 190
Quote:
Originally Posted by involuntary_serf View Post

Before you get too excited about poll numbers (which are suspect immediately after things like this anyway...since once people take a step back and actually start thinking and seeing the details rather than just feeling the HOPE and CHANGE, they reconsider), here's CNN's take on it:



*And we know how that ended.

Oh I thought we shouldn't dwell on the past, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush,Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush REPUBLICAN DEFICIT, REPUBLICAN DEFICIT, REPUBLICAN DEFICIT, REPUBLICAN DEFICIT, REPUBLICAN DEFICIT, REPUBLICAN DEFICIT, REPUBLICAN DEFICIT, REPUBLICAN DEFICIT, REPUBLICAN DEFICIT
post #47 of 190
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

That's an odd assertion and I wouldn't have expected you to punch low like that. There's a healthy debate to be had and that should include race, not exclude it.

I don't suggest such things as a "punch", just an observation that any broad accusation of racism where political differences are obviously present must include that realization.
post #48 of 190
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Those figures I gave are about right. There are far more struggling whites than blacks.

I completely disagree that things would be better without a minimum wage and public housing/education. Maybe you have an ideal that you think can make things better, but I haven't seen any evidence of that from say the Ron Paul camp or anywhere else on the right. His policies would condemn countless millions more to live in poverty and a much more brutal poverty at that.

I think the racial element is important. Racists must be seething with fury that blacks could get good healthcare. Remember too that most of these whites are too ignorant to know that their own race is without coverage more than any other and therefore even more willing to object to Obama's reforms. Whilst there's much to debate about the reforms, the racial element in the US shouldn't be removed when it's still motivating fairly large numbers of people. If anything it should be discussed more, so that maybe some of the them might better understand how the reforms will better their own race.

He is correct. There are about 18 million whites living below poverty in the USA (excluding white hispanics). The number for blacks and latinos in poverty are 10 million each.
post #49 of 190
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by involuntary_serf View Post

Before you get too excited about poll numbers (which are suspect immediately after things like this anyway...since once people take a step back and actually start thinking and seeing the details rather than just feeling the HOPE and CHANGE, they reconsider), here's CNN's take on it:



*And we know how that ended.

If you weren't a victim of selective reading and wishful thinking you would also know that Clinton's speech was the beginning of the process led by Hillary, which failed.

The Obama speech took place after many months of negotiations and has already advanced farther down the process than any other time in history.
post #50 of 190
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

"Some" people (highlighting the word 'some'!) are racially motivated. The racial impact shouldn't be over emphasized or under emphasized. What we know is that racial attitudes effect decision making and that is most definitely a factor with healthcare reform, especially as Obama is half black too.

What impact does this stuff have on peoples views of Obama's healthcare reforms? I'd say a substantial effect. This might convince you in 28 secs - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MI_0Kt_e3Go

Correct. And lets not forget that hundreds of thousands of demented nutjobs watch Glen Beck while salivating every day.
post #51 of 190
I guess it's just that, to me, there is no facet of this issue that has racial influences. I don't even think of this as an issue concerning "poor" people...not even as a political issue, really.

I see this as primarily one of a combination of unwanted government involvement in private sector concerns and irresponsible deficit spending. It's all about the government doing things it shouldn't.
post #52 of 190
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taskiss View Post

I guess it's just that, to me, there is no facet of this issue that has racial influences. I don't even think of this as an issue concerning "poor" people...not even as a political issue, really.

I see this as primarily one of a combination of unwanted government involvement in private sector concerns and irresponsible deficit spending. It's all about the government doing things it shouldn't.

It is about racism and healthcare is ABSOLUTELY something government should be regulating, like is happening in every modern democracy today: Canada, Japan, Spain, Germany, Switzerland, etc, etc, etc.

Why? Because healthcare is NOT a business. To see why not I would suggest you read the law of supply and demand.
post #53 of 190
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taskiss View Post

I don't suggest such things as a "punch", just an observation that any broad accusation of racism where political differences are obviously present must include that realization.

We can discuss racism without it having to mean that you are being accused of it, can't we? Let me reiterate that I am not saying that anyone's objections to Obama's healthcare reforms necessarily means that they're racist at all.
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post #54 of 190
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

We can discuss racism without it having to mean that you are being accused of it, can't we? Let me reiterate that I am not saying that anyone's objections to Obama's healthcare reforms necessarily means that they're racist at all.

I wasn't at any time referring to your contribution to this discussion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tauron View Post
I am calling the opponents out as racists. And you refuse to give a better explanation. Gotcha

I normally don't see such posts, but this was quoted earlier in another post. Talk about strawman! I guess some feel if they paint the opposition as racists then they win, since it's such an ugly accusation.

My observation - "I've noticed that the fine line between "political differences" and "racism" often gets painted with a wide brush".

And then I was asked to defend that statement. I actually felt I was being charitable in my analysis. I could have just as easily said "5 gallon bucket" instead of a "wide brush".
post #55 of 190
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

We can discuss racism without it having to mean that you are being accused of it, can't we? Let me reiterate that I am not saying that anyone's objections to Obama's healthcare reforms necessarily means that they're racist at all.

Tauron writes:

Quote:
Let me correct you: the price for the wars is about 2 Trillion. 2 Trillion was spent, mostly to kill people for no reason whatsoever.

Now asking for a fraction of that amount to save american lives: NO! Why? Because they are all black, or so their thinking seems to go.

He is not speaking of a small number of opponents that are racists, he is saying that any opponents would only be so because they are all racists. Then he goes on to clarify in another post:

Quote:
I am calling the opponents out as racists. And you refuse to give a better explanation. Gotcha

So there is not really any possibility of retraction at this point.

Then you go and say:

Quote:
Poor whites outnumber poor blacks by 2:1. Officially there are about 20 million whites living below the poverty level and 10 million blacks. However as a percentage of the race, blacks are 2.5 times more likely to be living in poverty than whites. I think Tauron is right that racist will see this as a helping hand to blacks and would rather they get no help themselves than see a black person get any of their hard earned money.

Taking a stand alongside Tauron, whether you meant to or not. We have had this discussion before, and I believe that you are not intending to set racism as the forefront issue, but there are some on this board who do, and you are unfortunately being lumped in with them because of indirect association.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #56 of 190
Thread Starter 
So Hands and I think opponents are influenced by racism. What is the problem with that? What is your evidence to the contrary? We are in a country that went ballistic when someone suggested Obama was born in Kenya! Not ballistic in calling the person a dangerous nutjob... oh no no no... ballistic because there were many who believed it was true! We are in a country where MLK was assassinated. OF COURSE is has everything to do with racism.
post #57 of 190
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taskiss View Post

I wasn't at any time referring to your contribution to this discussion.

I normally don't see such posts, but this was quoted earlier in another post. Talk about strawman! I guess some feel if they paint the opposition as racists then they win, since it's such an ugly accusation.

My observation - "I've noticed that the fine line between "political differences" and "racism" often gets painted with a wide brush".

And then I was asked to defend that statement. I actually felt I was being charitable in my analysis. I could have just as easily said "5 gallon bucket" instead of a "wide brush".

You could use the analogy of a "5 gallon bucket" with Tauron and unless he explains why he thinks that, there's not much to argue with.

It was when you said that by me identifying racism as an issue in the healthcare debate I would be ascribing racism to those whom racism was not a motivating factor that I found objectionable.

Quote: "As long as you realize that by doing so you'll damn folks for racism when it's actually a political difference."
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post #58 of 190
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tauron View Post

So Hands and I think opponents are influenced by racism. What is the problem with that? What is your evidence to the contrary? We are in a country that went ballistic when someone suggested Obama was born in Kenya! Not ballistic in calling the person a dangerous nutjob... oh no no no... ballistic because there were many who believed it was true! We are in a country where MLK was assassinated. OF COURSE is has everything to do with racism.

How can you accuse 'everyone' of being a racist who doesn't support it?
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post #59 of 190
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tauron View Post

So Hands and I think opponents are influenced by racism. What is the problem with that? What is your evidence to the contrary? We are in a country that went ballistic when someone suggested Obama was born in Kenya! Not ballistic in calling the person a dangerous nutjob... oh no no no... ballistic because there were many who believed it was true! We are in a country where MLK was assassinated. OF COURSE is has everything to do with racism.

Shouldn't someone alleging racism or even the influence of racism actually attempt to be bound to the definition of the word?

Quote:
# the prejudice that members of one race are intrinsically superior to members of other races
# discriminatory or abusive behavior towards members of another race

How does opposing health care meet those in any fashion? It doesn't meet it. It is just an ad-hom attack because the merits of the argument cannot stand on their own.

Weak tactics to support a weak argument.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #60 of 190
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Quote: "As long as you realize that by doing so you'll damn folks for racism when it's actually a political difference."

Of course I said "you". You were the one challenging my position. Also, if "you" paint the narrow line between two positions you'll cover both positions with your accusation, and accusations of racism are damning. Here, "you" means any that don't make the effort to discriminate between people who oppose for political reasons and those who do so because of racism... the users of the "wide brush".

I could have used "one" in place of "you", but that makes for a bit of clumsy verbiage.

Undoubtedly there are racists, however, in this issue there are also what appears to be a majority who differ for political or other reasons. Applying Occam, it seems political differences are more likely a reason than racism.
post #61 of 190
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taskiss View Post

Of course I said "you". You were the one challenging my position. If "you" paint the narrow line between two positions you'll cover both positions with your accusation, and accusations of racism are damning.

Undoubtedly there are racists, however, in this issue there are also what appears to be a majority who differ for political or other reasons. Applying Occam, it seems political differences are more likely a reason than racism.

Taskiss, I didn't challenge your position. I actually said that what you were saying 'does' happen but that doesn't mean that I should not take into account racism regarding the healthcare debate.

Quoting myself in response to you: "That does happen but it doesn't mean we should ignore it."

If you were intending for your statement, "As long as you realize that by doing so you'll damn folks for racism when it's actually a political difference." to be taken hypothetically, then sorry that's not how I read it.
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post #62 of 190
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tauron View Post

So Hands and I think opponents are influenced by racism. What is the problem with that? What is your evidence to the contrary?

You speaking for Hands is one problem I have. Let him speak for himself.
Quote:
We are in a country that went ballistic when someone suggested Obama was born in Kenya! Not ballistic in calling the person a dangerous nutjob... oh no no no... ballistic because there were many who believed it was true

They were upset that he may have been born in Kenya, not because that would make a black man a blacker man. They were upset because CONSTITUTIONALLY he cannot be president if it were true.
Quote:
We are in a country where MLK was assassinated. OF COURSE is has everything to do with racism.

# 1 Assassinations

* 1.1 Abraham Lincoln
* 1.2 James A. Garfield
* 1.3 William McKinley
* 1.4 John F. Kennedy

# 2 Attempted assassinations

* 2.1 Andrew Jackson
* 2.2 Abraham Lincoln
* 2.3 Theodore Roosevelt
* 2.4 Franklin D. Roosevelt
* 2.5 Harry S Truman
* 2.6 John F. Kennedy
* 2.7 Richard Nixon
* 2.8 Gerald Ford
* 2.9 Jimmy Carter
* 2.10 Ronald Reagan
* 2.11 George H.W. Bush
* 2.12 Bill Clinton
* 2.13 George W. Bush

# 3 Presidential deaths rumored to be assassinations

* 3.1 Zachary Taylor
* 3.2 Warren G. Harding

All because of racists as well? Your argument as it stands holds no water.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
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post #63 of 190
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

Shouldn't someone alleging racism or even the influence of racism actually attempt to be bound to the definition of the word?



How does opposing health care meet those in any fashion? It doesn't meet it. It is just an ad-hom attack because the merits of the argument cannot stand on their own.

Weak tactics to support a weak argument.

How many white supremacist's do you know that support universal healthcare?
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post #64 of 190
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

How many white supremacist's do you know that support universal healthcare?

How many White Supremacists do you know?

I don't know any myself. And of the ones I have heard of, I have not asked them about their stand on universal health care. Have you?
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #65 of 190
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJxmpTMGhU0

Turn up the volume and pay close attention.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #66 of 190
“Communist” has long been a buzzword for race hate in the South.



The illegal immigrant issue is what made a Southern representative embarrass himself.

It would be dishonest to portray all opponents of healthcare reform as racist.

It would be naïve to deny that racism motivates a great deal of right-wing thinking as manifest in many right-wing voting patterns, the way many right-wing politicians form their appeals to voters, and how many right-wing voters order their stated values.
proud resident of a failed state
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post #67 of 190
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Taskiss, I didn't challenge your position.

Well, in replying to my post, you challenged my position..."Challenge: a call to take part in a contest or competition". That then begs a personal form of address.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

If you were intending for your statement, "As long as you realize that by doing so you'll damn folks for racism when it's actually a political difference." to be taken hypothetically, then sorry that's not how I read it.

That particular statement was not made so much hypothetically as metaphorically, since one cannot actually "damn" another. Our exchange was one filled with abstracts and metaphors..."painting lines with wide brushes", etc.

I can only say, had I considered your position one that unilaterally considered opposition as racism, I'd flag your account in the same manner as others who have done such types of things, and then only reply to statements others quote.
post #68 of 190
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

It was a good speech. The teleprompter did well.

Yes, yes it does:




I'm getting so tired of that idiotic piece of rhetoric.

(nothing personal to you jazzguru, you're not the only one parroting it)
You need skeptics, especially when the science gets very big and monolithic. -James Lovelock
The Story of Stuff
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You need skeptics, especially when the science gets very big and monolithic. -James Lovelock
The Story of Stuff
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post #69 of 190
Quote:
I can only say, had I considered your position one that unilaterally considered opposition as racism, I'd flag your account in the same manner as others who have done such types of things, and then only reply to statements others quote.

Don't like what you hear, ignore away, but why this?
http://forums.appleinsider.com/showp...&postcount=571
Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taskiss
Can't change your spots, can you troll?

Repeatedly calling a poster a "troll", particularly in the aggressive, belittling style you're using, is, as far as I know, cause for a ban.

Particularly since Midwinter is doing nothing but trying to pin you down on a kind of indefensible statement.

Pointed out by Hands Sandon,
Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taskiss
Anyone who suggests that I need to be responsible for someone else's sustenance.

Since I became an adult, the only thing I've gotten in this life is what I earned.

WOW Taskiss, you've changed your tune.

http://forums.appleinsider.com/showt...highlight=galt
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taskiss
"With the extremly good fortune I've enjoyed in the last few years, I'd be selfish if I didn't share with others. Taxes allow me to share in a way that provides social solidarity. I'd like much more fiscal responsibility in the distribution of those monies, but all in all, I'd rather provide for someone who didn't need it than not provide for someone that does."

"Part of the good fortune I've received was made possible by involuntary contributions"

"In my opinion, there's a certain obligation a person owes to society - pretty much the whole difference between living in a cave in the woods and an urban subdivision is attributed to the benefits of society."

"Still, if I have to provide some minimal sustenance to a few folks who don't deserve it to help more that do, then I'm ok with that. I have too much I have earned (but really can't say I deserve) to complain about someone who's shoes I haven't walked in."

Might lead some to believe the accuser of trolling could be guilty himself as he never explained the conflicting statements.
post #70 of 190
Quote:
Originally Posted by iPoster View Post

Yes, yes it does:




I'm getting so tired of that idiotic piece of rhetoric.

(nothing personal to you jazzguru, you're not the only one parroting it)

No worries. It's just that to me Obama seems to be utterly lost without his, that's all.

I'm not holding up "W" as a prime example of oratory eloquence, mind you. Every time he said "nuclear" (new-kya-lur) I cringed.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #71 of 190
Quote:
Originally Posted by iPoster View Post

Yes, yes it does:

I'm getting so tired of that idiotic piece of rhetoric.

(nothing personal to you jazzguru, you're not the only one parroting it)

Yea jazzguru and Vice President Biden.
post #72 of 190
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

How many white supremacist's do you know that support universal healthcare?

Let's leave Europe out of this okay? Let's leave the Communists out of this okay? Let's leave the Nazi's and the Fascists out of this okay?

Oh wait... you would like to continue the list of white supremacists who have supported universal health care?

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #73 of 190
Quote:
Originally Posted by involuntary_serf View Post

Of course I disagree. Your suggestion that people are opposed to the current heath care "reform" proposals because those that would become covered are black is so utterly ludicrous (not to mention offensive and inflammatory) it doesn't even warrant engaging in a "debate" over it.

That's the unfortunate thing here. If those who want healthcare reform would stick to the facts and not get baited into calling people unamerican or bring up racism for no good reason, we'd be so much better off. Now, I wholly agree that we need serious healthcare reform and that every single person in this country should be guaranteed food, shelter, safety, and health. However, I can't fucking stand when proponents of the same things I want decide to employ the same idiotic tactics that we're so sick and tired of the other side using day in and day out.

The vocal minority on the right are being so ridiculous. There's no need to stoop to their level and give them any justification for their insanely childish and hypocritical behavior.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #74 of 190
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

Let's leave Europe out of this okay? Let's leave the Communists out of this okay? Let's leave the Nazi's and the Fascists out of this okay?

Oh wait... you would like to continue the list of white supremacists who have supported universal health care?

White supremacists liked to eat, drink, and breathe, too. Oh noes! If a horrible group of humans support something, that doesn't make it automatically wrong. Trumpet, how dare you be human and amble about on two legs just like Stalin! Demonstrate that you're a true American by dragging your knuckles as you walk on all fours! Anything less is treason.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #75 of 190
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

White supremacists liked to eat, drink, and breathe, too. Oh noes! If a horrible group of humans support something, that doesn't make it automatically wrong. Trumpet, how dare you be human and amble about on two legs just like Stalin! Demonstrate that you're a true American by dragging your knuckles as you walk on all fours! Anything less is treason.

You totally missed the overly sarcastic point he was making if you took that in any way literally.

And on the flip-side of that for others reading this post, if a "horrible group of humans" oppose it, that also does not make it automatically right either.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #76 of 190
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

Let's leave Europe out of this okay? Let's leave the Communists out of this okay? Let's leave the Nazi's and the Fascists out of this okay?

Oh wait... you would like to continue the list of white supremacists who have supported universal health care?

Actually, he is making the point that white supremacists couldn't possibly support national healthcare, because no racist person ever would.

I don't believe he is right, but his point is somewhat valid. A true racist, skinhead, white supremacist, likely would think twice before he voted for a social program he thought might be of special benefit to a minority. It is a very narrow sample of the US, and I believe it has almost no effect at all on the outcome of national healthcare.

If anything, those opposing it for racist reasons will likely push others into support for it out of spite for them, people that otherwise would have voted no for other personal reasons. In that way extreme racists would likely nullify their own votes that would be based on racial supremacy marginalizing themselves in the debate.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #77 of 190
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

You totally missed the overly sarcastic point he was making if you took that in any way literally.

And on the flip-side of that for others reading this post, if a "horrible group of humans" oppose it, that also does not make it automatically right either.

No, I didn't miss the sarcasm. I simply made a related point because what Trumpet touts as sarcasm is actually often touted as fact by many of those who currently oppose healthcare reform.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #78 of 190
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

No, I didn't miss the sarcasm. I simply made a related point because what Trumpet touts as sarcasm is actually often touted as fact by many of those who currently oppose healthcare reform.

Fair enough.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #79 of 190
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

White supremacists liked to eat, drink, and breathe, too. Oh noes! If a horrible group of humans support something, that doesn't make it automatically wrong. Trumpet, how dare you be human and amble about on two legs just like Stalin! Demonstrate that you're a true American by dragging your knuckles as you walk on all fours! Anything less is treason.

I was just answering the question posed BR. You did the same thing in noting the bad reasoning. The reality is that racism has nothing to do with the health care debate. In fact even calling what is being attempted reform is a total misnomer. It is a government takeover of health care and being opposed to that has nothing to do with race.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #80 of 190
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

How can you accuse 'everyone' of being a racist who doesn't support it?

I did? If I did I take it back, but let me explain what I mean. Those who plain and simple oppose the reform and has no legitimate concern, does not recognize there is a problem, does not want to understand the issue, does not want to find a viable solution - to those people I would say race or some form of discrimination play a major role.

If you oppose the CURRENT form of the bill and want to talk and have a rational discussion, while recognizing the system is broken and needs fixing now, not later, then lets talk. What I do not accept are those who say there is nothing wrong.
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