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Obama's Joint Session on Healthcare - Page 3

post #81 of 190
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

They were upset that he may have been born in Kenya, not because that would make a black man a blacker man. They were upset because CONSTITUTIONALLY he cannot be president if it were true.

Every american knows you have to be american to be the president. In fact, that and the right to bear arms is probably the only two things most people know. But I digress...

You are slightly mistaken about the above, however. How could these "people" be upset because they thought Obama might be Kenyan when a Hawaian birth certificate proving Obama was american was made available to the public during the campaign? Because irrational people have forsaken rational analysis and simply chose what to believe regardless of the facts. They chose their beliefs based on their fears and paranoia. And the paranoid needs very little tickling to become hysteric.

And by the way... about all those Presidential assassinations and attempted assassinations you talk about: in case you didn't know, MLK wasn't a president.
post #82 of 190
jazzguru:

Quote:
It's just that to me Obama seems to be utterly lost without his, that's all.

For example?


NoahJ:

Quote:
They were upset that he may have been born in Kenya, not because that would make a black man a blacker man. They were upset because CONSTITUTIONALLY he cannot be president if it were true.

Yes, the Constitution. That is what irks them so. That is why they were so angry about domestic spying… hmm

When someone seriously denies the birther movement is fundamentally racist that person cannot be reasoned with, because the evidence against the claims is so unassailable that only racism and/or pure stupidity can keep the belief alive.
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post #83 of 190
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJxmpTMGhU0

Turn up the volume and pay close attention.

Correct in every respect. Every person can and should scrutinize the government at every turn. To not do so is bad citizenship. But scrutinizing is one thing, shouting is another. Scrutinizing is adding to the discourse in a meaningful way. What the GOP is doing is just increasing the noise level in hope the signal goes away.
post #84 of 190
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tauron View Post

Correct in every respect. Every person can and should scrutinize the government at every turn. To not do so is bad citizenship. But scrutinizing is one thing, shouting is another. Scrutinizing is adding to the discourse in a meaningful way. What the GOP is doing is just increasing the noise level in hope the signal goes away.

Hillary sounded like she was shouting.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #85 of 190
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Originally Posted by groverat View Post

Communist has long been a buzzword for race hate in the South.



The illegal immigrant issue is what made a Southern representative embarrass himself.

It would be dishonest to portray all opponents of healthcare reform as racist.

It would be naïve to deny that racism motivates a great deal of right-wing thinking as manifest in many right-wing voting patterns, the way many right-wing politicians form their appeals to voters, and how many right-wing voters order their stated values.

Best post I have seen here so far.
post #86 of 190

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #87 of 190
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iPoster View Post

Yes, yes it does:




I'm getting so tired of that idiotic piece of rhetoric.

(nothing personal to you jazzguru, you're not the only one parroting it)

Perhaps the teleprompter rhetoric comes from the fact that Obama does it so well it must be because of the tele... but if that were the case then why did Bush need a brain-prompter to give a coherent speech??
post #88 of 190
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

No worries. It's just that to me Obama seems to be utterly lost without his, that's all.

I'm not holding up "W" as a prime example of oratory eloquence, mind you. Every time he said "nuclear" (new-kya-lur) I cringed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UVjNVPsL5EY
post #89 of 190

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

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post #90 of 190
Quote:
Originally Posted by groverat View Post

When someone seriously denies the birther movement is fundamentally racist that person cannot be reasoned with, because the evidence against the claims is so unassailable that only racism and/or pure stupidity can keep the belief alive.

What I really don't understand about the "birthers" is that Supreme Court Judge Roberts is the guilty party here, not Obama. If Roberts swore in an illegitimate president that would be conspiracy to commit the biggest fraud in US history. Why is Roberts not being sued?
post #91 of 190
Quote:
Originally Posted by groverat View Post

...
NoahJ:

Yes, the Constitution. That is what irks them so. That is why they were so angry about domestic spying… hmm

If we pretend that that is not why some people are all wrapped up, that makes things nice and easy. The bar for reason on this forum has been set low in places and very high in others, interesting.

Quote:
When someone seriously denies the birther movement is fundamentally racist that person cannot be reasoned with, because the evidence against the claims is so unassailable that only racism and/or pure stupidity can keep the belief alive.

Who drew any such line? I know that there are birthers who have jumped on simply for racial reasons, however there are also those who after months and months of dissembling, and the appearance of cover ups, to get a certificate of live birth that even the State of Hawaii itself would not accept as proof of birth there was not considered good enough. Then when the state of Hawaii finally does come forward and claim that he was born there it is how long after the original controversy began?

I bet everyone here loves Newsmax, and I could really care less if you don't, but this article sums up their position very well, and without going overboard, give both sides fairly as far as I can see.

http://www.newsmax.com/insidecover/o...06/244836.html

There are those who are in it for race, those who are in it for the conspiracy theory and those who are in it simply for the curiosity.

This site gives the more hardline, "whacko" stand on the issue. I only post it so that this view is given:
http://www.wethepeoplefoundation.org/obama/

And then there is the answer from the President himself:
http://www.whitehouse.gov/administra...esident_obama/
http://www.whitehouse.gov/the_press_...bbs-5/27/2009/
Quote:
Q Thank you, thank you very much. Just one question concerning what the President said in his speech on Thursday, and I quote, "I ran for President promising transparency, and I meant what I said. This is why, whenever possible, we will make information available to the American people so they can make informed judgments and hold us accountable." End of quote. Do you remember that statement?

MR. GIBBS: I can confirm that he said that.

Q Good. In consideration of this very good promise of transparency, why can't the President respond to the petition to requests of 400,000 American citizens by releasing a certified copy of his long-form birth certificate listing hospital -- (laughter) -- 400,000.

MR. GIBBS: Are you looking for the President's birth certificate?

Q Yes.

MR. GIBBS: It's on the Internet, Lester.

Q No, no, no -- the long form listing his hospital and physician. (Laughter.)

MR. GIBBS: Lester, this question in many ways continues to astound me. The state of Hawaii provided a copy with the seal of the President's birth. I know there are apparently at least 400,000 people -- (laughter) -- that continue to doubt the existence of and the certification by the state of Hawaii of the President's birth there, but it's on the Internet because we put it on the Internet for each of those 400,000 to download. I certainly hope by the fourth year of our administration that we'll have dealt with this burgeoning birth controversy.

Thanks, guys.

So, whatever, people are not happy with the level of transparency and that makes them stupid. Got it.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
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post #92 of 190
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stinkbug View Post

What I really don't understand about the "birthers" is that Supreme Court Judge Roberts is the guilty party here, not Obama. If Roberts swore in an illegitimate president that would be conspiracy to commit the biggest fraud in US history. Why is Roberts not being sued?

The Judge swore in a person that was presented to him as a natural born American citizen. Is it his job to do a full background check before swearing in? Is that written into law? If so, and any president he were swearing in were not a natural born American citizen, he could be culpable. However I do not believe this is the case.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #93 of 190
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tauron View Post

...

And by the way... about all those Presidential assassinations and attempted assassinations you talk about: in case you didn't know, MLK wasn't a president.

But he was a very public figure, as is the president. For other people who have been assassinated:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...sinated_people
United States
\t
* Joseph Smith, Jr., (1844), Mayor of Nauvoo, Illinois and presidential candidate and LDS church leader.
* Charles Bent, (1847), Governor of the New Mexico Territory
* James Strang, (1856), Michigan State Representative
* Abraham Lincoln, (1865 April 14), President of the United States[9]
* John P. Slough, (1867), Chief Justice of the New Mexico Supreme Court
* Thomas Hindman, (1868), Confederate General
* James Hinds, (1868), U.S. Congressman killed by members of the Ku Klux Klan
* Edward Dexter Holbrook, (1870), Congressional Delegate from the Idaho Territory
* James Garfield, (1881 July 2), President of the United States[9]
* John M. Clayton, (1889), Congressman from Arkansas
* David Hennessy, (1890), Police Chief of New Orleans
* Carter Harrison, Sr., (1893), Mayor of Chicago
* William Goebel, (1900), Governor of Kentucky
* William McKinley, (1901 September 6), President of the United States [9]
* Frank Steunenberg, (1905), former governor of Idaho
* Don Mellett, (1926), newspaper editor and campaigner against organized crime
* Anton Cermak, (1933 February 15), mayor of Chicago[1]
* Huey P. Long, (1935), Louisiana senator and former governor
* Walter Liggett, (1935), Minnesota newspaper editor
* Carlo Tresca, (1943), anarchist organizer
* Albert Patterson, (1954), Alabama Attorney General
* Curtis Chillingworth, (1955), a Florida judge
* Medgar Evers, (1963 June 12), U.S. civil rights activist[1]
* John F. Kennedy, (1963 November 22), President of the United States[1]
* Malcolm X, (1965 February 21), black Muslim leader, killed in a Manhattan banquet room as he began a speech
* George Lincoln Rockwell, (1967), founder of the American Nazi Party
* Martin Luther King, Jr., (1968 April 4), U.S. civil rights activist[1]
* Robert F. Kennedy, (1968 June 5), U.S. Senator, Candidate for Democratic nomination for President 1968, brother of assassinated President John F. Kennedy
* Fred Hampton, (1969), Deputy Chairman of the Illinois chapter of the Black Panther Party
* Dan Mitrione, (1970), FBI agent and torture expert, killed by the guerrilla movement Tupamaros
* Marcus Foster, (1973), School District Superintendent in Oakland CA, killed by members of the Symbionese Liberation Army
* Don Bolles, (1976), Investigative reporter for Arizona Republic, killed in car bomb, Max Dunlap and James Robison convicted, alleged Mafia ties
* Orlando Letelier, (1976), Chilean ambassador to the United States under the administration of Salvador Allende
* George Moscone, (1978), Mayor of San Francisco
* Harvey Milk, (1978), activist, San Francisco Supervisor
* Leo Ryan, (1978), Congressman from California, killed as part of the Jonestown Massacre
* John H. Wood, Jr., (1979), first US federal judge killed in the twentieth century
* Russell G. Lloyd, Sr., (1980), Mayor of Evansville, Indiana
* Allard K. Lowenstein, (1980), former Congressman from New York
* John Lennon, (1980), musician, peace activist, former member of The Beatles
* Alan Berg, (1984), radio talk-show host, killed by Neo-nazis
* Henry Liu, (1984), Taiwanese-American writer, allegedly killed by Kuomintang agents
* Alex Odeh, (1985), Arab anti-discrimination group leader, killed when bomb exploded in his Santa Ana, California office
* Alejandro González Malavé, (1986), famous undercover policeman, in Bayamón, Puerto Rico
* Ioan P. Culianu, (1991), Romanian historian of religion, culture, and ideas, professor at the University of Chicago, assassinated there in Swift Hall, apparently for his political writings
* Tommy Burks, (1998), Tennessee State Senator
* James E. Davis, (2003) New York City Councilman assassinated by Othniel Askew, a political rival in the Council chambers in City Hall
* Dimebag Darrell, (2004) guitarist of heavy metal bands Pantera and Damageplan
* Chauncey Bailey, (2007), journalist
* Bill Gwatney, (2008), Chairman of the Arkansas Democratic Party
* George Tiller, (2009), abortion provider

I am sure they were all black and for racist reasons, except the Presidents, right?
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #94 of 190
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

The Judge swore in a person that was presented to him as a natural born American citizen. Is it his job to do a full background check before swearing in? Is that written into law? If so, and any president he were swearing in were not a natural born American citizen, he could be culpable. However I do not believe this is the case.

The person was elected president by a majority of US voters.
Who presented the president to Roberts?
Why was Obama allowed to get that far?
So you say a supreme court judge simply does what he is told?
post #95 of 190
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post #96 of 190
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stinkbug View Post

What I really don't understand about the "birthers" is that Supreme Court Judge Roberts is the guilty party here, not Obama. If Roberts swore in an illegitimate president that would be conspiracy to commit the biggest fraud in US history. Why is Roberts not being sued?

LOL! Because then the conspiracy theory would quickly die.
post #97 of 190
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

No worries. It's just that to me Obama seems to be utterly lost without his, that's all.

I'm not holding up "W" as a prime example of oratory eloquence, mind you. Every time he said "nuclear" (new-kya-lur) I cringed.

Bush or Obama, they are hardly the first Presidents who couldn't form a complete sentence without their speech writing team/handlers/etc. My personal belief is that you just don't get to that level of politics and be trusted to communicate for yourself, even if you are a good natural speaker (Reagan).
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post #98 of 190
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stinkbug View Post

What I really don't understand about the "birthers" is that Supreme Court Judge Roberts is the guilty party here, not Obama. If Roberts swore in an illegitimate president that would be conspiracy to commit the biggest fraud in US history. Why is Roberts not being sued?

Take it a step further. How about the entire state of Hawaii? Who are the state officials responsible for forging Obama's certificate? Why are we not going after all those government officials who are obviously co-conspirators to Obama's grand fraud?

I mean there are plenty of lives out there that need to be destroyed by Orally Taints and her team of nutjobs. Shouldn't we be storming the capitol of Hawaii demanding the heads of those involved? Shouldn't we be serving papers to every single person who works for Hawaii's records department? I think we should demand the systematic resignations of all Hawaiian government officials that are remotely involved in this grand fraud. We shouldn't care if they're innocent or not. We need blood!

Think about it. This has to be the greatest American scandal and snowjob in its history. Who are the co-conspirators?

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post #99 of 190
Another Glenn Beck video tracing the roots of Obama's health care reform- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aigoscTpwus&NR=1
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post #100 of 190
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stinkbug View Post

The person was elected president by a majority of US voters.
Who presented the president to Roberts?
Why was Obama allowed to get that far?
So you say a supreme court judge simply does what he is told?

Obama and his campaign presented himself as a natural born Citizen. Also the Democratic party has some involvement as they have a responsibility to Vet the candidates they wish to present as the face of their party.

Good question, one that birthers have been asking. Why is it such a fight for them to get the answers they have gotten? The birthers view seems to be, assuming he is a citizen, why be so evasive for so long?

I am saying that it is not the Judges duty to do what should have been done by the people that presented the candidate to him. If he felt there was any question he probably could have refused, so maybe he felt comfortable with the evidence he saw.

I actually had never heard of the birthers nor followed anything they had to say until starting to read this forum again a few months ago. I had heard of claims that Obama was not a natural born American, but had not seen any evidence to that fact. After reading their website fully, I am not swayed either direction, but I have had doubts as to Obama's origins after reading all the presented information. I am not a birther, and I am not calling the birthers nutcases either. Demonizing someone for a held belief goes against my grain.

The way I see it, Obama refuses to present a few pieces of key information that would totally eliminate all the questions swirling around his place of birth. One of those is his "Long Form Birth Certificate". He would do that for 2 main reasons.

1) He is not a natural born citizen.
2) He does not feel that he should have to prove his citizenship status and does not care that other citizens of the US feel that he is not eligible because he is in the office now.

Both answers bother me, however the first one bother me much more than the second. Whatever the outcome is will determine how far things go as far as lawsuits and such. It will be put to rest one way or another. I am interested to see how that turns out.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
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post #101 of 190
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tauron View Post

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NqJiC...eature=related

We can do this all day.

Yes we can! Yes we can! Yes we can!

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

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post #102 of 190
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Yes we can! Yes we can! Yes we can!

Jazzy,

You really must realize that your one liners won't change the reality of things. You know. What we've tried to point out to you.

!. Bush was one of the most ineffective presidents I've seen in 56 years and along with the rest of the republican goverment of the time is largly responsible for the recession. Yes, yes I know you don't believe this one. Well some people still believe we didn't land on the moon and quite frankly I don't think there's anything that can help them.

2. Conservatives making wild statements and accusations just makes the whole conservative side of things look stupid ( republican or not ).

3. We're in a liberal period that has been 8 years brewing so it's not likely to end anytime soon.

4. Even if Obama's healthcare reform goes under it's generally accepted that healthcare in this country is in trouble ( even conservatives agree with this one ) and will only get worse unless something is done. When it does get worse who do you think the american people will blame? ( Hint it's not Obama, the democrats, or liberals in particular. )
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #103 of 190
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

Obama and his campaign presented himself as a natural born Citizen. Also the Democratic party has some involvement as they have a responsibility to Vet the candidates they wish to present as the face of their party.

Good question, one that birthers have been asking. Why is it such a fight for them to get the answers they have gotten? The birthers view seems to be, assuming he is a citizen, why be so evasive for so long?

I am saying that it is not the Judges duty to do what should have been done by the people that presented the candidate to him. If he felt there was any question he probably could have refused, so maybe he felt comfortable with the evidence he saw.

I actually had never heard of the birthers nor followed anything they had to say until starting to read this forum again a few months ago. I had heard of claims that Obama was not a natural born American, but had not seen any evidence to that fact. After reading their website fully, I am not swayed either direction, but I have had doubts as to Obama's origins after reading all the presented information. I am not a birther, and I am not calling the birthers nutcases either. Demonizing someone for a held belief goes against my grain.

The way I see it, Obama refuses to present a few pieces of key information that would totally eliminate all the questions swirling around his place of birth. One of those is his "Long Form Birth Certificate". He would do that for 2 main reasons.

1) He is not a natural born citizen.
2) He does not feel that he should have to prove his citizenship status and does not care that other citizens of the US feel that he is not eligible because he is in the office now.

Both answers bother me, however the first one bother me much more than the second. Whatever the outcome is will determine how far things go as far as lawsuits and such. It will be put to rest one way or another. I am interested to see how that turns out.

The fact that you're trying to make a cogent argument for the birthers is very disturbing. Hawaii has proven over and over again the authenticity of his birth. A point that you, and the birthers, consistently and constantly refuse to believe as legitimate. If I were Obama I wouldn't feel I needed to do shit to make you feel less "bothered".

So I wonder, who are his co-conspirators? If he is, as you say, "refusing to present information", then you're implying that he's hiding something. Obviously, he couldn't overcome this all by himself. So why aren't the birthers going after the other conspirators? Why aren't these people being dragged into the streets for being culpable in the single greatest coup in modern history?
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post #104 of 190
Quote:
There are plenty more examples.

Plenty more examples of him mildly stumbling throughout some of the hundreds of impromptu and unscripted speeches and interviews he has given?

How often do you speak extemporaneously, at length, in front of people?

Quote:
If we pretend that that is not why some people are all wrapped up, that makes things nice and easy.

It's not a matter of pretending, it is a matter of America having a long and documented history and some people being capable of noticing patterns in that history. Further than that, it is also a matter of some people actually living and having very deep roots in the region of the nation being discussed and understanding its nature and ways.

Quote:
however there are also those who after months and months of dissembling, and the appearance of cover ups, to get a certificate of live birth that even the State of Hawaii itself would not accept as proof of birth there was not considered good enough.

The assertion that the State of Hawaii would not accept the provided certificate is patently false.

Quote:
I bet everyone here loves Newsmax, and I could really care less if you don't, but this article sums up their position very well, and without going overboard, give both sides fairly as far as I can see.

Whether or not one "loves" Newsmax is immaterial. The question is whether or not it is a reliable and trustworthy source; it is not.

I am glad that there was laughter in the room, because the "birther" movement deserves nothing but scornful laughter, derision, and mockery.

Quote:
Why is it such a fight for them to get the answers they have gotten?

There wasn't a fight at all. Hawaii very quickly produced the copy of his birth certificate. There was no fight for it at all. FactCheck flew down there and they happily provided it.

People have said that this is insufficient, but there is reason to believe this. As far as the State of Hawaii is concerned, the copy of Obama's birth certificate genuine and even admissible in court.

Quote:
One of those is his "Long Form Birth Certificate".

A "long form birth certificate" that no one can even prove exists in the first place. No one has proven that Obama should have such a document at all.

Can you give some evidence that all babies born at that time in Hawaii received "long form birth certificates"?

No wonder you were so eager to get me to be nice to the moonbats.
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post #105 of 190
Quote:
Originally Posted by groverat View Post

The assertion that the State of Hawaii would not accept the provided certificate is patently false.

Or.... as Joe Wilson might say.....

YOU LIE!
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post #106 of 190
Quote:
Originally Posted by groverat View Post

It's not a matter of pretending, it is a matter of America having a long and documented history and some people being capable of noticing patterns in that history. Further than that, it is also a matter of some people actually living and having very deep roots in the region of the nation being discussed and understanding its nature and ways.

Well, agree or not do you have demographic data that show where the people who are asking for this information are actually geographically located to make your assertions hold water? I don't, so if you do it would go a long way to convincing me of your point.

Quote:
The assertion that the State of Hawaii would not accept the provided certificate is patently false.

I have looked around a bit more and found this page:
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Is_a_certi...cate_in_Hawaii
I would have to agree with you on this point. The birthers appear to be wrong about that.

Quote:
Whether or not one "loves" Newsmax is immaterial. The question is whether or not it is a reliable and trustworthy source; it is not.

I am glad that there was laughter in the room, because the "birther" movement deserves nothing but scornful laughter, derision, and mockery.

Whatever, the article was pretty fair on this issue. It did not make any effort to take sides from what I can see.

Quote:
There wasn't a fight at all. Hawaii very quickly produced the copy of his birth certificate. There was no fight for it at all. FactCheck flew down there and they happily provided it.

Umm, no, you might want to check your facts. Hawaii will not happily provide anyone with anyone's birth certificate but their own. That is against the law there and just about anywhere else as far as I know. I am pretty sure they mean that they talked to Obama's people and looked at the original for what was scanned on the web. That link however does contain a lot of good data. I searched all day after my post for more information and did not find that site. However i found a lot more sites that all had secondhand speculation, or secondhand data about how Hawaii said they certified his records there.

Quote:
People have said that this is insufficient, but there is reason to believe this. As far as the State of Hawaii is concerned, the copy of Obama's birth certificate genuine and even admissible in court.

I assume the word "no" should go in between "is" and "reason" above.
Looks reasonable to me.

Quote:
A "long form birth certificate" that no one can even prove exists in the first place. No one has proven that Obama should have such a document at all.

Can you give some evidence that all babies born at that time in Hawaii received "long form birth certificates"?

From the Wikianswers page:
The Department of Hawaiian Home Lands accepts both Certificates of Live Birth (original birth certificate) and Certifications of Live Birth because they are official government records documenting an individual's birth. The Certificate of Live Birth generally has more information which is useful for genealogical purposes as compared to the Certification of Live Birth which is a computer-generated printout that provides specific details of a person's birth. Although original birth certificates (Certificates of Live Birth) are preferred for their greater detail, the State Department of Health (DOH) no longer issues Certificates of Live Birth. When a request is made for a copy of a birth certificate, the DOH issues a Certification of Live Birth.
The original birth certificate has more information on it, thus it is a long form rather than the shorter Certification, or reprint birth certificate. As a parent who has 3 children, I received an original birth certificate for each of them. I do not live in Hawaii, but I would assume that this is the same there as well.

Quote:
No wonder you were so eager to get me to be nice to the moonbats.

Nope, that was because you can be such an ass sometimes. Totally unrelated.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #107 of 190
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

Jazzy,

You really must realize that your one liners won't change the reality of things. You know. What we've tried to point out to you.

!. Bush was one of the most ineffective presidents I've seen in 56 years and along with the rest of the republican goverment of the time is largly responsible for the recession. Yes, yes I know you don't believe this one. Well some people still believe we didn't land on the moon and quite frankly I don't think there's anything that can help them.

2. Conservatives making wild statements and accusations just makes the whole conservative side of things look stupid ( republican or not ).

3. We're in a liberal period that has been 8 years brewing so it's not likely to end anytime soon.

4. Even if Obama's healthcare reform goes under it's generally accepted that healthcare in this country is in trouble ( even conservatives agree with this one ) and will only get worse unless something is done. When it does get worse who do you think the american people will blame? ( Hint it's not Obama, the democrats, or liberals in particular. )

You lost me at the word "reality".

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #108 of 190
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

You lost me at the word "reality".

Oh come on! Can't you do better than the usual sand box repartee?
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #109 of 190
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

Oh come on! Can't you do better than the usual sand box repartee?

For you, no.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #110 of 190
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

For you, no.

From what I've been reading for anyone it would seem.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #111 of 190
Well, this is interesting (aggravating is more like it). It was about 2 weeks ago that I first did any reading on the website the birthers have put up. And just today, going through I was trying to find a few of the things they had posted then that I thought were interesting facts. Since I have engaged in a conversation about them I felt it was only right that I do more research so I could decide whether I wanted to back them any further or not. The facts in question they had posted that I recall are all gone...

Oh well, an interesting argument flushed. I understand where they are coming from, and I wish them the best, but I don't feel like backing their position any further. I understand them and from that understanding I have not decided they are right. Live and learn I guess. \
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #112 of 190
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

From what I've been reading for anyone it would seem.

To you it would seem that way, yes.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #113 of 190
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

To you it would seem that way, yes.

It seems that way because it's the truth jazzy. But go ahead and have the last word again so you can " Win ".
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #114 of 190
Oh, what the heck.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

Jazzy,

You really must realize that your one liners won't change the reality of things. You know. What we've tried to point out to you.

So, my "one liners" are important enough for you to feel inclined to comment on them and point out how "unrealistic" they are. Obvious. Interesting.

Quote:
!. Bush was one of the most ineffective presidents I've seen in 56 years and along with the rest of the republican goverment of the time is largly responsible for the recession. Yes, yes I know you don't believe this one. Well some people still believe we didn't land on the moon and quite frankly I don't think there's anything that can help them.

I'm not disagreeing that Bush's policies contributed to the current mess we're in. However, this current mess was more than 8 years in the making. Policies and laws enacted since the 30's have contributed to it. Furthermore, I believe Obama's policies have exacerbated the problems. They have not "brought us back from the brink". We are coming back from the brink in spite of them.

Quote:
2. Conservatives making wild statements and accusations just makes the whole conservative side of things look stupid ( republican or not ).

No, the Democrat establishment is trying to make a comparative handful of outspoken people who call themselves conservatives look stupid and portray them as representative of conservatives as a whole, hoping to discredit them and show the world how insignificant and marginalized they are. This is backfiring. Most Americans are very reasonable, rational people who work hard and just want the best for their families. Painting the majority of them as "stupid radicals" probably won't sit well with them in the long-run.

Quote:
3. We're in a liberal period that has been 8 years brewing so it's not likely to end anytime soon.

Define "anytime soon". I think if things continue the way they are - with Obama trying to use what charisma he has left to force his leftist agenda down the throats of the American people instead of listening to them and working out a compromise - he may be a one term president. He essentially said in his healthcare speech to the joint sessions of Congress that he doesn't care what the opponents to his plan are saying. He is supposed to lead and represent all of us, not just those who agree with him.

Quote:
4. Even if Obama's healthcare reform goes under it's generally accepted that healthcare in this country is in trouble ( even conservatives agree with this one ) and will only get worse unless something is done. When it does get worse who do you think the american people will blame? ( Hint it's not Obama, the democrats, or liberals in particular. )

There is no question that there are things that need to be addressed and resolved when it comes to our healthcare system. However, it does not require a government takeover. It does not require a massive overhaul. It does not require giving the government more power over our lives than it already has.

A good start would be focusing on tort reform. This could help significantly lower medical fees and rates.

Another good idea is to put a system in place that allows people to keep their insurance if they switch jobs.

These and many other suggestions I've learned about are all reasonable, responsible ways to improve our healthcare system WITHOUT unconstitutional government intrusion into our lives.

Who will be to blame if things get worse? Hmm...which party is in power right now? Which party has control of the Executive and Legislative branches of government? The party in power gets blamed for any crap that happens. That's how it works.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #115 of 190
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Oh, what the heck.



So, my "one liners" are important enough for you to feel inclined to comment on them and point out how "unrealistic" they are. Obvious. Interesting.



I'm not disagreeing that Bush's policies contributed to the current mess we're in. However, this current mess was more than 8 years in the making. Policies and laws enacted since the 30's have contributed to it. Furthermore, I believe Obama's policies have exacerbated the problems. They have not "brought us back from the brink". We are coming back from the brink in spite of them.



No, the Democrat establishment is trying to make a comparative handful of outspoken people who call themselves conservatives look stupid and portray them as representative of conservatives as a whole, hoping to discredit them and show the world how insignificant and marginalized they are. This is backfiring. Most Americans are very reasonable, rational people who work hard and just want the best for their families. Painting the majority of them as "stupid radicals" probably won't sit well with them in the long-run.



Define "anytime soon". I think if things continue the way they are - with Obama trying to use what charisma he has left to force his leftist agenda down the throats of the American people instead of listening to them and working out a compromise - he may be a one term president. He essentially said in his healthcare speech to the joint sessions of Congress that he doesn't care what the opponents to his plan are saying. He is supposed to lead and represent all of us, not just those who agree with him.



There is no question that there are things that need to be addressed and resolved when it comes to our healthcare system. However, it does not require a government takeover. It does not require a massive overhaul. It does not require giving the government more power over our lives than it already has.

A good start would be focusing on tort reform. This could help significantly lower medical fees and rates.

Another good idea is to put a system in place that allows people to keep their insurance if they switch jobs.

These and many other suggestions I've learned about are all reasonable, responsible ways to improve our healthcare system WITHOUT unconstitutional government intrusion into our lives.

Who will be to blame if things get worse? Hmm...which party is in power right now? Which party has control of the Executive and Legislative branches of government? The party in power gets blamed for any crap that happens. That's how it works.

Quote:
Who will be to blame if things get worse? Hmm...which party is in power right now? Which party has control of the Executive and Legislative branches of government? The party in power gets blamed for any crap that happens. That's how it works

The flaw in this logic is that the party that is in power tried to do something about it. They also warned that bad things could happen if we don't. The republicans and conservatives in general tried to block them from doing something. The Democrats will most certainly bring this up later. The ones that tried to block them from doing something wil be blamed by the voter. That's the way it works. That's the way it's always worked. It's an easy equation.

Also I've already stated what " Anytime soon " means. At least 8 years probably more like 10 before it errodes. That's the way cycles work. The only thing that might speed this up is a series of major fuck ups by the Democrats or Obama. I know you guys are wishing for this but it's not very likely. The kind of fuck ups that brought the Republicans to their knees Democrats don't often do. You'd need a Whitewater or a Lewinski.

What this means is that Obama is likely to get a second term and the other arms in government will stay mostly the same. It's just not 2000 anymore and the voter isn't angry at Obama like they were at Clinton. And yes I know you're waiting for that big 3rd party uprising. Well good luck with that.

Now if the economy starts to turn around ( for whatever reason ) that will just add fuel to the fire and we might have a Democrat in the Whitehouse until 2020. But that's extemely iffy since we'll be at the end of the cycle by then.

You've got to remember we're only in Obama's first year. Clinton wasn't so popular in the begining either. But by the time we hit the late 90's he was doing very well with that long running Bull market. Until Lewinski of course. That helped usher in the conservative part of the cycle. He actually helped Bush win.

I know you were only 10 when all of that started so it might be difficult to have the same perspective but there are those of us who lived it as adults.

No matter what you do though the political scene always goes in cycles like this. Mostly they are about a decade long. they influence not only politics and opinion but even what's in fashion. ( styles, lifestyles, etc. ). During the Clinton era you barely heard about the war on drugs ( which was always in the news during Bush Sr. for example. ). These cycles affect attitude and opinion. Go back and look at movies of the time. Back in the late 70's and early 80's it was common to see people smoking pot. Something you'd never see later. I'm not making a judgement call here but no matter what the situation is it will eventually change because it's like a pendulum. Always been this way always will be because that's people. You try one way and after a while it doesn't work so you try something else. We just left the conservative cycle ( born out of Clinton and his questionable judgement ) and will be this way for about 10 years.

The only time I remember this being shorter was with Carter. He was kind of weak as a president ( funny that he became a much better statesman after he left office ) but he cooked his own goose with the Iran invasion debacle.

From Wikipedia :
Quote:
, giving back the Panama Canal and signing the SALT II nuclear arms reduction treaty with the USSR, the final year of his administration was marred by the Iran hostage crisis which contributed to his loss in his 1980 campaign for re-election to Ronald Reagan.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jimmy_Carter

That's the sort of thing that would have to happen to change this.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #116 of 190
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

The flaw in this logic is that the party that is in power tried to do something about it. They also warned that bad things could happen if we don't. The republicans and conservatives in general tried to block them from doing something. The Democrats will most certainly bring this up later. The ones that tried to block them from doing something wil be blamed by the voter. That's the way it works. That's the way it's always worked. It's an easy equation.

Doesn't make any sense. The Democrats have the majority in the House and Senate and a President that will rubber stamp it if they pass it.

If they don't pass it, it will be because of their own party members.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #117 of 190
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

There is no question that there are things that need to be addressed and resolved when it comes to our healthcare system. However, it does not require a government takeover. It does not require a massive overhaul. It does not require giving the government more power over our lives than it already has.

A good start would be focusing on tort reform. This could help significantly lower medical fees and rates.

Another good idea is to put a system in place that allows people to keep their insurance if they switch jobs.

These and many other suggestions I've learned about are all reasonable, responsible ways to improve our healthcare system WITHOUT unconstitutional government intrusion into our lives.

Who will be to blame if things get worse? Hmm...which party is in power right now? Which party has control of the Executive and Legislative branches of government? The party in power gets blamed for any crap that happens. That's how it works.

You believe that corporations should have complete control over your life. They should tell you what to eat and which doctor to go to and when and how much treatment you are allowed to receive. This is the current system. The problem with this is that once a corporation has eliminated it's competition by i.e. purchasing other competing corps or simply out marketing them, you will have what's generally known as "corporate takeover of health care." This is described in a myriad of scifi books. The corp is then free to set it's own standards with maximized profit in mind. When they say "I want my country back" they mean bring back the rule of the slave owner. Keep the working people sick and poor, disallow abortions so there will be more of them to exploit, let them die early from lack of care and maximize profit for the few.

Joe Wilson's only bill he ever brought forth would bar emergency rooms from treating illegal aliens. Now that is pure anti christian, anti American and anti humanitarian fascism. Obama can learn a lot from him.

Oh one more thing:
Republican health care reform and illegal aliens

Oh and this:
un funded medicare overhaul
This costs 1.2 trillion but no one demonstrated, or had any problem with it, it uses tax $ for illegal aliens and lots more. It was passed because the Bush admin lied again. WTF?
post #118 of 190
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Doesn't make any sense. The Democrats have the majority in the House and Senate and a President that will rubber stamp it if they pass it.

If they don't pass it, it will be because of their own party members.

Read the rest. I got bumped off and had to relog in for taking too long.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #119 of 190
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

4. Even if Obama's healthcare reform goes under it's generally accepted that healthcare in this country is in trouble ( even conservatives agree with this one ) and will only get worse unless something is done. When it does get worse who do you think the american people will blame? ( Hint it's not Obama, the democrats, or liberals in particular. )

That is why now everybody is "backing" healthcare reform for Obama. Now that they saw that the scare tactics didn't work because they fly in the face of reason for anyone with an IQ over 50 (exclude about 30% of the population here, but include the majority).

Now that they can't defeat it without taking the blame - remember before the blame was going to go towards the right lunatic fringe (people building militias and other dipshits) - they are "for" it. But of course they support it in the hopes of exchanging the support for some concessions that will make them able to keep buying a Porsche every year and keep building additions to their 4 million dollar homes. I am talking of hospital directors, doctors, big pharma execs and even insurance company execs.

Basically we have gone from tier 1 (what I like to call the banana republic level) to tier 2 (the ok lets see how we can bastardize this deal as much as possible). The real remedy for the flusterfuck state of healthcare will only come in tier 3 (the government outsmarts big corporation and does what is right for the people).
post #120 of 190
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tauron View Post

the government...does what is right for the people).

Yeah, that's gonna happen. What fantasy world do you live in?

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