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From OLED to Tegra: Five Myths of the Zune HD - Page 9

post #321 of 582
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mazda 3s View Post

I'll just make this point.

The reviews for the Zune HD will be coming in within the next 12-24 hours. They will tell us how good the screen is (in comparison to the iPhone/iPod touch), how good the video playback is, how the battery life stacks up, and how good the HD radio reception stacks up.

Then we'll see if this AI article is complete bullcrap or was right on the money.

Any other conversations in this thread (with relation to hardware at least) are pretty much useless/irrelevant until those reviews start rolling in IMHO.

The article will be seen as being right about in the middle. The screen will be ok in bright indoor light, but poor outside.
post #322 of 582
Quote:
Originally Posted by gus2000 View Post

You fanbois are all clueless if you don't see the unlimited potential for Zune software sales. Here's just a few examples off the top of my head:
  • Zune Firewall
  • Zune Antivirus
  • Zune Registry Editor
  • Zune Defragger
  • Zune Rebooter
  • Zune Spyware Defender
  • Zune User Account Contol (cancel or allow?)
  • Zune OS, Premium Edition
  • Zune OS, Ultimate Edition
  • Zune Reinstall Kit
  • Zune Genuine Advantage
  • Zune Minesweeper
The possibilities are endless!

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post #323 of 582
Quote:
Originally Posted by Logisticaldron View Post

That be true for the screen MS is using but any brand new tech can be more easily obtained by companies buying less quantity if production has yet to scaled up to meet demand. We've already seen this in action with HP, Dell, Sony and others having selling PCs with new Intel CPUs well before Apple can get the hundreds of thousands they need to have ready in stores with distributors and online all at the same time. This is Apple fault for having such a limited product line and using so few varying components when compared to other PC makers, who sell bulk of older tech with many different setups and their comparitive machines are often build to order and don't have the unit sales that Apple has for a single model. A bit off topic, but I think Apple's growth will force them to expand their Mac platform to more models.

That's not always true, and your own examples aren't even true. Apple has, at least twice, gotten the newest, most advanced chips from Intel months before any other manufacturer got them. It started with the Yonah chips.

Small OLED screens aren't a new, production limited Technology. They haven't been for years. It's just that they were too expensive. The price has been dropping, so more companies have been using them.

Bigger ones are still too expensive for most purposes right now, though Apple's massive buying per would bring those prices down.
post #324 of 582
Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox View Post

Anyway, MS fanboys/apologists are good at one thing: bullying. As long as they can leverage platform dominance into a sneering contempt for Apple users as some kind of fatuous tribe of posers, ganging up at the average tech site like of crowd of drunk frat boys, they have a high old time.

When obliged to defend a minority platform, I swear to God, MS fanboys are the whiniest, shrillest bitches on the internet.

.....
post #325 of 582
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

None of that's true though. Don't let people tell you that. There are no production problems for the small OLEDs used for phones and such. They were being used in car audio units for years before, and made in the millions.

The problems were with quality and reliability.

Most of those problems have been solved.

If Apple wanted 40 million screens from a big manufacturer, they could get them. The problems are with big screens.

Those problems are twofold. One is that as with other displays, costs go up disproportionally with size. Two is that rejections go up disproportionally with size.

Getting 3.5" screens is easy. Getting 10" screens is hard.

Apple is not the cause of NAND shortages. I've made this clear in another thread. It's just a result of memory production cutbacks from manufacturers. Apple is ordering bit more than before, where last year there were no shortages, but manufacturers are producing much less to get memory prices up, which is happening, and causing shortages this year.

I would like to hear more information about OLED availability in this form factor. One thing in wading through 300+ posts of fanboy vitriol is that nobody around here seems to know anything about building a consumer electronic device this sophisticated, and what it means to the supply chain you depend on. One of the reasons why Apple gets the flash RAM it wants is because twice now they have handed large checks to manufacturers to expand existing production facilities or build entire new ones.

When I heard that Sony's Walkman was going OLED, my first reaction was "Oh great, it looks like OLED might be ready for primetime". But then I thought again on the supply chain issues that someone like Apple would face. If Sony made 1 million Walkmans this year, they would be brimming with happiness. But Apple sells that many iPhones/iPod Touches in a 2-3 weeks. If the unit costs of OLED vs. LED aren't close or if the supply chain can't handle an order like that, what's the purpose of doing it? Remember the bad old days of Apple's supply chain problems? I do. Then Tim Cook came and that sillyness ended. And if Apple thought it could solve it by prepaying someone $500 million, I'm sure they would.

Prince does one one thing right about the whole HD Radio thing. The international standard issue is a big problem. Apple likes to make one hardware sku if they can...it lowers their cost dramatically. In order for Apple to implement terrestrial digital radio in all markets, they would have to support all three standards and do it in a manner cheap enough to keep unit costs low. There's another problem...I doubt that anyone has actually chipped their "standards" into one available chip. There's also power considerations and the aformentioned codec issues. Digital terrestrial radio has lots of upsides, like metadata tagging so that songs played can be purchased through iTunes. But I suspect the other issues haven't been solved yet.
post #326 of 582
Quote:
Originally Posted by Olternaut View Post

Yes, understood.

But Apple becoming lazy and relying more on an established platform instead of continually innovating is not going to be healthy for Apple in the long run.
We'll see though come early 2010 when Steve Jobs debuts the next type of portable computing device.

The question should be; How much can they innovate from year to year?

The lack of a camera in the Touch is apparently really due to problems encountered from faulty sensors, from what I've read. Jobs's attempt to write it off as a price thing is to be expected. It's what all companies have to do. Maybe we'll see camera laden touches later this year, or surely, next year.

The Nano is definitely a highly innovated device, esp. this year.

But Apple's idea is to make a general purpose device, and let the software define what it is and does. That's very smart.

Despite some smarmy remarks from people occasionally stating that there are just 20 good apps and such, there are really an amazing amount of great apps. Apps that no other phone or player will ever get because of the platforms' popularity.

I have some apps that work on my 3G about as well as hundreds of dollars of specialized equipment. Amazing! And I know of others in the same situation.

These devices are becoming ubiquitous. We're seeing programs I never thought to see on a portable phone or player.

Will the Zune HD ever reach this status? No. No matter how good the mechanics and electronics of the HD may be, it will never happen. MS has seen to that.

A good music and video player? Sure. But what else? Not much. We can just look to their software plans to see that.
post #327 of 582
Quote:
Originally Posted by DKaz View Post

No offense, but the primary function for both of these devices is to listen to music. Nowhere in the 400+ comments did I read a single mention of this important feature. I am not an Apple fanboy. I am not an MS fanboy. I have been reviewing DAPs on-line for several years now, and I can honestly say that IMHO the Apple sound quality has become sub par. The line out is wonderful, but when using the headphone out, the sound is not nearly as full as other players out there. The Zune is not the best either, but it is better then the last several generations of all types of iPods. I have listened to them with many different types of headphones as well from Klipsch, Denon, etc. As a side note, I have found that the Sony players offer ME the best listening experience of all of the DAPs I have reviewed. I am not saying the Zune is the best overall either. Every DAP out there has there strong suit. The iPod has many, the Zune has others, Sony has it's, etc. For this battle though, I would give the SQ to the Zune if it sounds the same as the last gen.

P.S. I agree that the subscription service is wonderful for those who like to dabble in all different genres. I think it would be a great experience for anyone who has not tried one to give it a trial period of at least 2 months. I guarantee you will find artists and songs that you love which you never would have found otherwise.

I don't know what you review for, but to say that the output is lower quality is just wrong. Apple's earbuds are crap. That's true, and it's puzzling. but line output, and headphone output is just as good as anything out there, and I'm someone with a mid five figure audio system who has owned a company that designed pro audio equipment.
post #328 of 582
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Will the Zune HD ever reach this status? No. No matter how good the mechanics and electronics of the HD may be, it will never happen.



Wow, you have power to foresee the future. Can you tell me the winning Super Lotto number for this week?
post #329 of 582
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sevenfeet View Post

I would like to hear more information about OLED availability in this form factor. One thing in wading through 300+ posts of fanboy vitriol is that nobody around here seems to know anything about building a consumer electronic device this sophisticated, and what it means to the supply chain you depend on. One of the reasons why Apple gets the flash RAM it wants is because twice now they have handed large checks to manufacturers to expand existing production facilities or build entire new ones.

When I heard that Sony's Walkman was going OLED, my first reaction was "Oh great, it looks like OLED might be ready for primetime". But then I thought again on the supply chain issues that someone like Apple would face. If Sony made 1 million Walkmans this year, they would be brimming with happiness. But Apple sells that many iPhones/iPod Touches in a 2-3 weeks. If the unit costs of OLED vs. LED aren't close or if the supply chain can't handle an order like that, what's the purpose of doing it? Remember the bad old days of Apple's supply chain problems? I do. Then Tim Cook came and that sillyness ended. And if Apple thought it could solve it by prepaying someone $500 million, I'm sure they would.

Prince does one one thing right about the whole HD Radio thing. The international standard issue is a big problem. Apple likes to make one hardware sku if they can...it lowers their cost dramatically. In order for Apple to implement terrestrial digital radio in all markets, they would have to support all three standards and do it in a manner cheap enough to keep unit costs low. There's another problem...I doubt that anyone has actually chipped their "standards" into one available chip. There's also power considerations and the aformentioned codec issues. Digital terrestrial radio has lots of upsides, like metadata tagging so that songs played can be purchased through iTunes. But I suspect the other issues haven't been solved yet.

If you look at my bio, you will see that I was a partner in a firm that designed and manufactured pro audio equipment. I know about manufacturing, I keep up with this. I know people in the industries.

The only thing that needs to be done to produce 40 million of one screen a year right now is for a company to actually put an order in for them. Small OLEDS are no more difficult to manufacture than LCD's.

Some of the problems in OLED production have to do with the bendable OLEDS that we keep hearing about, but never seen in a product. Those devices have moisture problems from the fact that the bendable substrates have permeability that is too high for long term use, and the OLEDs short out after a while.

There are lots of articles on this, and I'm surprised that people won't take the time to Google it, and read some before commenting.

http://www.google.com/search?client=...UTF-8&oe=UTF-8
post #330 of 582
Quote:
Originally Posted by JJ Kay View Post

Wow, you have power to foresee the future. Can you tell me the winning Super Lotto number for this week?

Well, smart one, its pretty simple. MS has said that all apps will be free. Hows that for an incentive?

Do you really expect MS to sell these in the numbers required for major app development to occur, even if developers would get paid for their work?

I don't think anyone does, even MS. They's already made official comments that there wouldn't be a lot of apps available.

Go argue with their predictions.
post #331 of 582
Bingo! Free??? Why make something if you can't sell it. When you can go over to the App store and SELL it. Sounds like someone over at MS has taken a play from the socialist playbook.
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post #332 of 582
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

That's not always true, and your own examples aren't even true. Apple has, at least twice, gotten the newest, most advanced chips from Intel months before any other manufacturer got them. It started with the Yonah chips.

What chips were these? I recall the Mac Pro Xeons and MBAs SFF ULV C2D. Those are from the common CPUs that I think are being mentioned. The ones that were in the MacBooks, MacBook Pros and iMacs all at the same time. Apple isnt the niche boutique company it once was, a diversified Mac line seems like a given with their growth.
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post #333 of 582
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

What chips were these? I recall the Mac Pro Xeons and MBAs SFF ULV C2D. Those are from the common CPUs that I think are being mentioned. The ones that were in the MacBooks, MacBook Pros and iMacs all at the same time. Apple isnt the niche boutique company it once was, a diversified Mac line seems like a given with their growth.

I already mentioned the Yonahs. That was almost three months before anyone else got them.

Sometimes Apple chooses to skip a chip, or waits for other reasons to delay a newer device because they are waiting for something in addition to the new cpu, so it may seem to some that they may get some chips late.
post #334 of 582
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

I already mentioned the Yonahs. That was almost three months before anyone else got them.

Sometimes Apple chooses to skip a chip, or waits for other reasons to delay a newer device because they are waiting for something in addition to the new cpu, so it may seem to some that they may get some chips late.

Werent those the very first Intel chips Apple used? There unit sales have been increasing every year-over-year quarter since, even while in the recession. I dont think it changes the fact that if a chip still isnt being produced at full throttle yet, that Apple simply wont be able to get the excessive numbers it needs in one lump sum whereas other vendors only need a very small number in comparison to start advertising for their top end.
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post #335 of 582
Are they selling these at Walmart? I will have to go look at one. Best review = Your own
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post #336 of 582
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

I already mentioned the Yonahs. That was almost three months before anyone else got them.

Sometimes Apple chooses to skip a chip, or waits for other reasons to delay a newer device because they are waiting for something in addition to the new cpu, so it may seem to some that they may get some chips late.

2006 Q2 Apple sold Apple shipped 1.11M Macs. In 2009 Q2 Apple sold 2.22M Macs. That is double, and that doesnt account for the fact that many of those Macs in the 2006 quarter were still PPC-based Macs. You just cant keep growing and expect that supply will not outreach demand, especially when you are trying to grab the latest and greatest before production has ramped up.
post #337 of 582
Quote:
Originally Posted by NasserAE View Post

An option proved to be a failure. The current music subscription model will not succeed.

+1.

I like to own my music and rent movies, which is why I remain disappointed in the inability of  and MPAA to come up with better terms for rentals on movies. Mostly selection is my biggest gripe, hopefully they can get the movies to us faster in the near future. I feel 30 days is too long to wait to rent a movie that's out on DVD. Seems like it is just TV users that get screwed with that time delay.

I would, however, like to see a distinct selection of subscription based new artists, almost in a different "section" or storefront. For indies, home studio recordings, etc. That would be cool for like $5 a month or so. That way you could still get to check out new tracks, and they wouldn't interfere with the established artists with contracts.
post #338 of 582
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Werent those the very first Intel chips Apple used? There unit sales have been increasing every year-over-year quarter since, even while in the recession. I dont think it changes the fact that if a chip still isnt being produced at full throttle yet, that Apple simply wont be able to get the excessive numbers it needs in one lump sum whereas other vendors only need a very small number in comparison to start advertising for their top end.

Yes, they were. scale had nothing to do with it. Once production starts, thousands of chips are produced every day.

And no one builds all of their products in one day, or week. Apple needed a stream of chips, and Intel could supply them.
post #339 of 582
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

None of that's true though. Don't let people tell you that. There are no production problems for the small OLEDs used for phones and such. They were being used in car audio units for years before, and made in the millions.

The problems were with quality and reliability.

Most of those problems have been solved.

If Apple wanted 40 million screens from a big manufacturer, they could get them. The problems are with big screens.

Those problems are twofold. One is that as with other displays, costs go up disproportionally with size. Two is that rejections go up disproportionally with size.

Getting 3.5" screens is easy. Getting 10" screens is hard.

Apple is not the cause of NAND shortages. I've made this clear in another thread. It's just a result of memory production cutbacks from manufacturers. Apple is ordering bit more than before, where last year there were no shortages, but manufacturers are producing much less to get memory prices up, which is happening, and causing shortages this year.

Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

If you look at my bio, you will see that I was a partner in a firm that designed and manufactured pro audio equipment. I know about manufacturing, I keep up with this. I know people in the industries.

The only thing that needs to be done to produce 40 million of one screen a year right now is for a company to actually put an order in for them. Small OLEDS are no more difficult to manufacture than LCD's.

Some of the problems in OLED production have to do with the bendable OLEDS that we keep hearing about, but never seen in a product. Those devices have moisture problems from the fact that the bendable substrates have permeability that is too high for long term use, and the OLEDs short out after a while.

There are lots of articles on this, and I'm surprised that people won't take the time to Google it, and read some before commenting.

http://www.google.com/search?client=...UTF-8&oe=UTF-8

I'm not questioning your credentials. If anything, I was asking you to elucidate on some of the points you made earlier since few people posting here seemed to have any idea about what's practical in supply chain or manufacturing. What metrics might be ok for one company may be insufficient for another. For example, the article AI just posted "Apple, Microsoft trade places selling iPod touch and Zune HD" talks about the fact that the new Zune OLED screen is expensive. Microsoft & Sony might be willing to make a sacrifice in per-unit profit margin in order to gain marketshare against Apple. Apple might have looked on the decision as "do we sacrifice significant profit margin here in order to have the latest screen technology"? Apple's profit margins are the envy of the industry for a hardware company and accounts a lot for that P/E ratio approaching 30. It may have been one in many factors that made the difference in what screen technology they went with.

As far as your audio experience, I'd be curious to find out which company and what's in your rack right now.
post #340 of 582
Quote:
Originally Posted by Logisticaldron View Post

2006 Q2 Apple sold Apple shipped 1.11M Macs. In 2009 Q2 Apple sold 2.22M Macs. That is double, and that doesnt account for the fact that many of those Macs in the 2006 quarter were still PPC-based Macs. You just cant keep growing and expect that supply will not outreach demand, especially when you are trying to grab the latest and greatest before production has ramped up.

Intel isn't AMD, they have vast capacity. That's one reason why Apple went with them.

Intel supplies hundreds of millions of computer cpu's a year. That's just for laptops and towers. They produce tens of millions more for netbooks and other smaller devices, and a hundred million or more for embedded use.

They have a large number of chip manufacturing plants around the world.

Supplying Apple's needs is not a problem.
post #341 of 582
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Yes, they were. scale had nothing to do with it. Once production starts, thousands of chips are produced every day.

And no one builds all of their products in one day, or week. Apple needed a stream of chips, and Intel could supply them.

That is exactly right, but they all have upper limits. This is not a new phenomenon. Nothing can be scaled indefinitely.
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post #342 of 582
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Intel supplies hundreds of millions of computer cpu's a year. That's just for laptops and towers. They produce tens of millions more for netbooks and other smaller devices, and a hundred million or more for embedded use.

That is easier done with older chips or chips that have been ramped up. Dell can grab a new chip that is still in limited production as Intel is still working out production issues and advertise that they have the newest Intel CPU as a BTO option well before Apple can convert their ENTIRE notebook and AIO line to use these CPUs.
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post #343 of 582
Quote:
Originally Posted by JJ Kay View Post

Wow, you have power to foresee the future.

Yeah, he shouldn't have said never, but given Microsoft's mobile track record, let's just say it's unlikely.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Logisticaldron View Post

2006 Q2 Apple sold Apple shipped 1.11M Macs. In 2009 Q2 Apple sold 2.22M Macs. That is double, and that doesn’t account for the fact that many of those Macs in the 2006 quarter were still PPC-based Macs. You just can’t keep growing and expect that supply will not outreach demand, especially when you are trying to grab the latest and greatest before production has ramped up.

I can't find hard numbers, but I think it's reasonable to say that Intel makes about 60 million processors a quarter, based on having 80% of the desktop/notebook CPU market, and 300 million computers sold in a year. I don't know what their capacity is, but if demand keeps growing, I'm sure they can expand their capacity. But Apple's 2.22 million isn't huge in terms of what Intel produces. If there is a shortage, Apple can easily outbid other companies to keep their supply.
post #344 of 582
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sevenfeet View Post

I'm not questioning your credentials. If anything, I was asking you to elucidate on some of the points you made earlier since few people posting here seemed to have any idea about what's practical in supply chain or manufacturing. What metrics might be ok for one company may be insufficient for another. For example, the article AI just posted "Apple, Microsoft trade places selling iPod touch and Zune HD" talks about the fact that the new Zune OLED screen is expensive. Microsoft & Sony might be willing to make a sacrifice in per-unit profit margin in order to gain marketshare against Apple. Apple might have looked on the decision as "do we sacrifice significant profit margin here in order to have the latest screen technology"? Apple's profit margins are the envy of the industry for a hardware company and accounts a lot for that P/E ratio approaching 30. It may have been one in many factors that made the difference in what screen technology they went with.

As far as your audio experience, I'd be curious to find out which company and what's in your rack right now.

Let's talk prices then.

MS goes to a large OLED manufacturer and integrator and asks for a screen with a multitouch layer and a glass layer, all bonded together.

Let's say, just to make it simpler, that MS's screen is 3.5" and 480 x 320, the same as Apple's, instead of being smaller with less rez,

The company asks how many they will need for the contract's completion, and what's the expected monthly flow.

MS, based upon past sales, and expected new sales says, one million, with an average monthly flow of 83,300.

The manufacturer says to them, ok, that's $60 per screen for you."

It's just a number, so please don't argue it.

Now, Apple goes to the same manufacturer and asks for the same exact assembly.

They say, 40 million with an average monthly flow of 3.33 million a month.

The manufacturer says, "Ok, that's $30 per screen for you."

Profit margins for Apple aren't a problem. It's the much smaller manufacturers who have the problem. This is one reason why it's thought that MS loses money on every Zune it sells, while Apple is making a very high margin on theirs.

My company was called Magnum Opus, though we later changed that to Peacetime Communications. We sold the company a long time ago to JBL. I was later a long time partner in a commercial film Lab here in NYC, until we sold that about five years ago.

I have done design work and manufacturing on my own for Showtime, HBO and others, and design, and manufacturer prototypes for various companies.
post #345 of 582
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

That is exactly right, but they all have upper limits. This is not a new phenomenon. Nothing can be scaled indefinitely.

Of course, If Apple had needed 10 million Yonah chips in a couple of months at that early time, even Intel would have had a problem supplying them.
post #346 of 582
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

I already mentioned the Yonahs. That was almost three months before anyone else got them.

Apple started putting Yonah in MacBook in May 2006 - Yonah was introduced in Nov 2005. Now Apple may have been the first company to put Yonah in a Laptop (perhaps no one else bothered because they went from Dothan to Conroe (Pentium M to Core 2)).

I think Apple's original strategy (when they announced Intel in 2005) was probably to go straight to Core 2 (64-bit). Yonah just happened to be around to fulfill a promise, and although it's a great chip (I have a 2006 MacBook), having 32/64-bit Intels now is probably a pain for Apple. That's speculation on my part though.

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post #347 of 582
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

That is easier done with older chips or chips that have been ramped up. Dell can grab a new chip that is still in limited production as Intel is still working out production issues and advertise that they have the newest Intel CPU as a BTO option well before Apple can convert their ENTIRE notebook and AIO line to use these CPUs.

It's just the way Apple works. Many PC manufacturers come out with new mobo's every quarter. Many jump on every new chip that's out there.

Apple doesn't do that. They change their machines at a more stately pace (that wasn't always so), so they want to get it just so first.
post #348 of 582
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

Yeah, he shouldn't have said never, but given Microsoft's mobile track record, let's just say it's unlikely.

Let's stick "highly" in there.
post #349 of 582
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zoolook View Post

Apple started putting Yonah in MacBook in May 2006 - Yonah was introduced in Nov 2005. Now Apple may have been the first company to put Yonah in a Laptop (perhaps no one else bothered because they went from Dothan to Conroe (Pentium M to Core 2)).

I think Apple's original strategy (when they announced Intel in 2005) was probably to go straight to Core 2 (64-bit). Yonah just happened to be around to fulfill a promise, and although it's a great chip (I have a 2006 MacBook), having 32/64-bit Intels now is probably a pain for Apple. That's speculation on my part though.

It likely was their intent, but it wasn't ready in time.
post #350 of 582
Quote:
Originally Posted by cycomiko View Post

The lady doth protest too much, methinks.

And at length. The OLED section alone made the same points at least three times.

Quote:
Originally Posted by djsherly View Post

...the OLED news is disappointing - I had an OLED screen on a Moto flip phone.. ..and it seemed bright enough. I wonder what gives today?

The link off this paragraph points at a gallery of pictures. It also assumes that all OLEDs are the same. We know that Apple for instance can put inferior LCDs on their screens

Additionally, the fact that OLEDs degrade faster than LCDs is a moot point given the half life of one particular OLED panel is about 17,0000 hours. The device would have been replaced some time before then.

My new Samsung TL320 P&S has an "AMOLED" screen (and claims to be the first cam to have one). It's totally viewable in noonday sun, and the useable viewing angle is amazing. No color/reflective negative shift at all when seen from extreme angles, and I get plenty of "great screen" comments out in the world.

So is this a different tech from "regular" OLED (whatever that means) in any fundamental way, e.g., power consumption, brightness, lifetime, etc?

Also, thanks for lessening my anxiety, since 17,000 hours should do me for a month or two anyway. LoLz. And PS, congrats for being in the 5% who know it's "moot point" rather than a "mute" one.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by karmamule View Post

Actually you get to keep 10 DRM-free MP3s a month as part of your $15 subscription cost. Most of the songs on my iPhone at this point are from my Zune subscription!

So, as long as you were going to be buying at least 10 songs per month anyways, then that means you're only paying an extra $5 bucks for access to those millions of songs.

Oh, and most of those other services you talk about do NOT let you exactly specify playlist order, listen to entire CDs at once, etc.. Oh, and most of them don't let you store that music for offline listening.. and ..you can't specify exactly what you want to hear and in what order.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dominiej View Post

What the article fails to mention is the good points of the Zune HD like Xbox360 integration, wireless syncing, [plus Zune Pass, etc., etc]- making it have the ability to reflect the owner, than just be another player with a fruit on the back.

You've hit one key point I didn't see at all in the first three pages, nor in the article. The Zune HD is NOT the ballgame for Zune, which is being positioned, like Bing, as a platform, in this case for a variety of media initiatives.

XBox 360 integration is one of those next steps. Further down the road expect to see Zune software in WinMobile 7, meaning MS won't have to manufacture a full line of Zunes, but let all of its phone partners make them. Beyond that, again finally learning some lessons about branding and keeping evolution backward compatible, Zune software will probably replace or at least become the guts of Windows Media Player - reducing its number of music platforms to one that's extensible - and MS may also do something Zuny on the web as part of the Live stable. It could also be integrated into its Sync car software (that Ford is using) - or directly into car stereos from other manufacturers - and selling software to hardware makers and end users is still 95% of how MS has always made its living - not from selling hardware.

Full disclosure: I got this line of thought from Paul Thurrot's Windows Weekly podcast where he says he's been discussing all of this with MS.

He also suggested, now that Apple's approved a Rhapsody app, a Vonage App and has been nudged by the FCC on Google Voice, that they'd have a hard time not allowing, drumroll please, a Zune App for the iPhone and Touch, which would definitely score tons of irony points if nothing else.

And this is how he suggested it would work: it wouldn't "take over" the system and give it a full Zune interface, but instead be a regular app whose purpose is to allow you to play music from a Zune Pass sub on the Apple device, i.e., giving you all the iPod functionality, plus the Zune subscription service on your iPhone or Touch. And as another poster said, that could be "an interesting option" for some.

Back to you.....

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post #351 of 582
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

I can't find hard numbers, but I think it's reasonable to say that Intel makes about 60 million processors a quarter, based on having 80% of the desktop/notebook CPU market, and 300 million computers sold in a year. I don't know what their capacity is, but if demand keeps growing, I'm sure they can expand their capacity. But Apple's 2.22 million isn't huge in terms of what Intel produces. If there is a shortage, Apple can easily outbid other companies to keep their supply.

It doesn’t sounds like we’re talking about 40M CPUs from Intel’s entire production line. It sounds like getting an excessive amount of Intel CPU that have just gone into production and not at full production. Brand new, next generation hardware. They produce small quantities at first, then slowly increase production as they can. Once production is in full swing I have no doubt that Intel can get Apple whatever it needs, but at first these very small batches will not suit a large operation like Apple, but can suit Dell just fine who need next to nothing in comparison for there barely sold, high-end, BTO machines.
Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
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post #352 of 582
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigpics View Post

And this is how he suggested it would work: it wouldn't "take over" the system and give it a full Zune interface, but instead be a regular app whose purpose is to allow you to play music from a Zune Pass sub on the Apple device, i.e., giving you all the iPod functionality, plus the Zune subscription service on your iPhone or Touch. And as another poster said, that could be "an interesting option" for some.

Back to you.....

I don't see that as being possible. A subscription requires DRM. Apple has never had MS DRM on their machines, and I don't see that happening now. This seems like pie in the sky.
post #353 of 582
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

The only place where he's partly wrong is about the OLED screen.

Otherwise you will find just about the same information elsewhere.

I know that's it's also politically correct to slam his articles because they often contain some errors, but mostly, they are correct.

We're going to see overly optimistic reviews on a number of other sites, that like a few earlier Zune reviews give opinions that most people after using the device and its software for a while won't agree with, so perhaps we should slam those articles as well.

Again, what the f--k is the point of this article on AI? Dilger has never touched the Zune HD and probably never will. 99% of the people on this site will agree that the Zune HD is already destined to be an also-ran PMP. The article is just fanboy nonsense regardless of what percentage is right or wrong. If he's going to go on for 3 pages of crap (I stopped reading halfway through the first page since all I could really see him saying was, "Microsoft sucks. Apple rules."), why not mention the strengths of the Zune HD?

Both you and him try to negate the nicety of having an HD Radio tuner built in. I have one in my car and that piece of gear is definitely something that will come with me to my next vehicle. HD Radio channels DO sound better than their analog counterparts. They obviously have no static and that alone makes them sound better even if they are broadcast at the same bit rate as the analog version. And nearly every major station in my area is broadcasting in HD plus several have secondary digital channels as well.

Everyone slams the Zune pass but I subscribe to Rhapsody to use it on my 2 TiVo's and I love it. It makes we wish I wasn't stuck with a Mac so I could use the unlimited downloads feature. No, music subscriptions aren't for everyone but it works for me. It's great to get to listen to a full album before I commit to buying it. And it's really nice to listen to songs that I want to hear but don't want to buy the album. I love 80's music and it's fun to explore the rest of one-hit-wonders catalogs.

And it's also really nice that it can play back 720p video files despite the display resolution not matching. It seems really nice to not have to download both and SD and HD version of a file like the iTunes kludgy solution. No, you won't fit many full length HD movies on the Zune HD, but you won't fit all that many SD movies on an iPod Touch or iPhone either.

Just like this article's author I've never touched a Zune HD, but it sounds like a competent media player. Too bad very few people on this site will look past their fanboy-ism to get it a fair chance. Does it match a Touch for features? No, but who cares? If Microsoft worked on the Xbox 360 integration, it could be a really compelling companion to that game machine. It would be even better if Microsoft removed the PC from the equation and let the console be the device's sync hub.
post #354 of 582
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Let's talk prices then.

MS goes to a large OLED manufacturer and integrator and asks for a screen with a multitouch layer and a glass layer, all bonded together.

Let's say, just to make it simpler, that MS's screen is 3.5" and 480 x 320, the same as Apple's, instead of being smaller with less rez,

The company asks how many they will need for the contract's completion, and what's the expected monthly flow.

MS, based upon past sales, and expected new sales says, one million, with an average monthly flow of 83,300.

The manufacturer says to them, ok, that's $60 per screen for you."

It's just a number, so please don't argue it.

Now, Apple goes to the same manufacturer and asks for the same exact assembly.

They say, 40 million with an average monthly flow of 3.33 million a month.

The manufacturer says, "Ok, that's $30 per screen for you."

Profit margins for Apple aren't a problem. It's the much smaller manufacturers who have the problem. This is one reason why it's thought that MS loses money on every Zune it sells, while Apple is making a very high margin on theirs.

My company was called Magnum Opus, though we later changed that to Peacetime Communications. We sold the company a long time ago to JBL. I was later a long time partner in a commercial film Lab here in NYC, until we sold that about five years ago.

I have done design work and manufacturing on my own for Showtime, HBO and others, and design, and manufacturer prototypes for various companies.

Good points. But I could easily see Apple saying to a vendor, "well we're getting our current screens for $18" (like your example, just a number). "If we do a $30 screen, we might have to charge an additional $50 to the retail price just to keep our proper margins. Also, you tell me that the failure rate of your product in 30 days is 2% while our current product is .06%" So if we keep our profit margin where the street expects, we may shave off 500,000 unit sales this year as some customers choose the cheaper older Touch or (worse) choose a Zune. And given the projected failure rate, our warranty costs for this part are projected to more than triple, which eats into margins as well."

All I'm saying is that we have no idea all the metrics that went into Apple's decision not to go OLED with this cycle of product but I can speculate on some reasonable theories. Again, Sony and Microsoft may be looking strictly to poach market share by going with a product feature that is really sexy but makes the product that much unprofitable. Given how entrenched Apple's marketshare and mindshare is, they might figure it's the only way in the game until they have enough critical mass to force suppliers to give them better prices. Apple's investments in the Flash RAM markets is a classic example of a company who gets far better prices than anyone else due to the sheer number of pieces than can order and their ability to pre-pay for large shipments of product months in advance. The Palm Pre launch is a classic example where Apple's 16g iPhone 3G was the same price as the 8g Pre at launch. Apple's component costs including things like lithium batteries, Flash RAM and LCD screens were lower than Palm's.

Nice to read about your background. Pleased to meet you.
post #355 of 582
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maury Markowitz View Post

I actually have a little background in this, so let me take a whack at it...

Traditional LCD screens produce a color image by selectively filtering down a white light source, the backlight. As the name implies, the backlight lies at the back of the screen, and fires forward toward the viewer. Most backlights use CCFL tubes, while those on high-end televisions sometimes use LEDs instead.

Of the total amount of light produced, only a tiny fraction makes it through the entire screen. The filtering starts by removing over 1/2 of the light that's not polarized in the right direction. It then flows through a series of colored filters, LCD shutters and another polarizer on the front. In a typical display, only about 10% of the light at the back of the screen reaches the viewer.

LED's produce light directly on their front surface in the color you want, so almost 100% of the light they produce reaches your eye. Modern devices are more efficient than a CCFL as well, so the amount of energy needed to produce any given image is much lower for LEDs than LCDs. Unfortunately, traditional LEDs are fairly large, and not really suitable for television-like displays.

Into this void steps the OLED, which uses a printable technology that can scale down to useful sizes. Although the OLED is not efficient as the traditional LED, the overall end-to-end performance is still much better than an LCD of the same brightness. OLED screens require about 1/2 as much power as an LCD to display an all-white image (the most efficient image one an LCD can display) and are generally much more efficient as most images contain colors or graduations in brightness.

There, that is an accurate description of the technologies involved.



No, SOME of today's OLED panels are. Others are much brigher. Seeing as you didn't actually see the Zune and based your entire article on supposition from a photo series on Engaget, let's turn to someone that actually has seen the new device, Ars:



Everything I've heard states in normal use it is much brighter than the iPhone. It is entirely possible that it has problems outdoors, likely even, but the iPhone is hardly perfect here either.



They last more than long enough for a device that is essentially disposable over a period of 2 to 3 years.



This statement is absolutely false. OLED screens use, less power than an LCD of the same size and brightness. Period. Can I put numbers to this? Sure:

http://displaydaily.com/2009/07/09/w...-tvs-be-green/

This post suggests they will use about 30% of the power of the equivalent CCFL backlit LCD, like the one in the iPhone.

"Considering it's got an energy-saving OLED screen, we were disappointed with the battery life of the Jet. Perhaps the powerful processor puts some extra drain on the juice, but the promised 180 minutes of talk time and 250 hours' standby translated into a barely a day of moderate use."

And they guessed it was the processor, which strikes me as just as informed as your guess. Of course, it could be neither of these things.



Perhaps it's because Apple sells millions of devices a year, and current production lines can't handle that load. Whereas MS, which sells perhaps 1/20th the number, doesn't present any particular strain.

Your knowledge of the OLED market appears as limited as your knowledge of its technology.

Maury

From your very poor understanding LED-backlit technology i assume rest of your post is total BS as well. Shame you claim you "have a little background in this" until this is micro-little. I guess you just read Wikipedia article with no understanding what you are reading about.
post #356 of 582
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmf2 View Post

I'm sorry you didn't get the camera, but the ZuneHD doesn't have on either. This article provided some additional insight for me, but I am also taking it with a grain of salt. Whether or not the HD Radio will be more useful than a regular FM radio is largely irrelevant when the iPod Touch doesn't have a radio at all. On the other hand I don't think OLED or the HD radio will be a big selling point, and I would consider the graphics and processing capabilities to be similar (iPod Touch has the stronger processor, ZuneHD the stronger graphics processor). If 720p output is important, Apple can activate it with a firmware update. Whether or not this thing flops will come down probably come down to software. We will have to wait and see.

Like hell the Nvidia Tegra is a stronger GPU.
post #357 of 582
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigpics View Post


You've hit one key point I didn't see at all in the first three pages, nor in the article. The Zune HD is NOT the ballgame for Zune, which is being positioned, like Bing, as a platform, in this case for a variety of media initiatives.

XBox 360 integration is one of those next steps. Further down the road expect to see Zune software in WinMobile 7, meaning MS won't have to manufacture a full line of Zunes, but let all of its phone partners make them. Beyond that, again finally learning some lessons about branding and keeping evolution backward compatible, Zune software will probably replace or at least become the guts of Windows Media Player - reducing its number of music platforms to one that's extensible - and MS may also do something Zuny on the web as part of the Live stable. It could also be integrated into its Sync car software (that Ford is using) - or directly into car stereos from other manufacturers - and selling software to hardware makers and end users is still 95% of how MS has always made its living - not from selling hardware.

Full disclosure: I got this line of thought from Paul Thurrot's Windows Weekly podcast where he says he's been discussing all of this with MS.

He also suggested, now that Apple's approved a Rhapsody app, a Vonage App and has been nudged by the FCC on Google Voice, that they'd have a hard time not allowing, drumroll please, a Zune App for the iPhone and Touch, which would definitely score tons of irony points if nothing else.

And this is how he suggested it would work: it wouldn't "take over" the system and give it a full Zune interface, but instead be a regular app whose purpose is to allow you to play music from a Zune Pass sub on the Apple device, i.e., giving you all the iPod functionality, plus the Zune subscription service on your iPhone or Touch. And as another poster said, that could be "an interesting option" for some.

Back to you.....

Hmmmm......

Or, you could listen to Zune's marketing manager:

Quote:
Q: Will it open up for third-party app developers?

A: It's hard to say right now. If you look around the company at other places where things like this are important, Windows Mobile rises to the top. They have devices which are always connected, which make applications like maps really cool and important.

On a sometimes-connected device, what people are using them for are games. So what we didn't want to do was build two parallel app store experiences that didn't work together.

Right now our product roadmaps didn't line up perfectly for us to snap to what they're doing or vice versa. That being said, we know people want things like this on their devices so we're going to build them ourselves, they're going to be super high-quality, and they're going to be free.

Down the road if there's a way we can work with Windows Mobile or another group inside the company that's building an app store and take advantage of that, that's something we'll look into.

Or as Jon Gruber over at Daring Fireball dryly translates it,

Quote:
No, because our mobile strategy is a convoluted mess.
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They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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post #358 of 582
Quote:
Originally Posted by gus2000 View Post

You fanbois are all clueless if you don't see the unlimited potential for Zune software sales. Here's just a few examples off the top of my head:
  • Zune Firewall
  • Zune Antivirus
  • Zune Registry Editor
  • Zune Defragger
  • Zune Rebooter
  • Zune Spyware Defender
  • Zune User Account Contol (cancel or allow?)
  • Zune OS, Premium Edition
  • Zune OS, Ultimate Edition
  • Zune Reinstall Kit
  • Zune Genuine Advantage
  • Zune Minesweeper
The possibilities are endless!


The best post ever! I am envious i didn't figured myself!
post #359 of 582
Quote:
Originally Posted by rodent69 View Post

"However, Tegra isn't a scaled down version of NVIDIA's PC graphics GPUs. Instead, it's based on technology NVIDIA acquired in its purchase of fabless chip designer PortalPlayer in 2007."

Got any source info on this?

I can see NVidia using PortalPlayer tech for fixed function codec acceleration, but NVidia using PortalPlayer tech as a base for OpenGL ES 2.0 doesn't sound right.

Information about the current Tegra:

http://ragingbull.quote.com/mboard/b...RMH&read=20279

Direct Video Feed: http://channel.hexus.net/content/item.php?item=19922
post #360 of 582
Wow Im used to extremely slanted stories on here, but the bitterness to which this article was written feels like the Zune inventor slept with the authors wife or something.

Get a life.
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