From OLED to Tegra: Five Myths of the Zune HD - Page 3

Groan. There's that canard again. Please provide a cite? (Hint: You can't).

You see, theres a problem. People don't want that, apparently. They vote with their money, and most all have voted "no".

So sure, you and some others like the idea, but so what? Really, in the long term, it's not been working out.

Maybe there will always be one or two companies that continue to offer a subscription service, but most of the rest are on financial life support. Napster has never made a dime. Rhapsody is shrinking rapidly and is now losing money. Real is in trouble. And so are all the rest.

People want to buy songs. That seems to be the model that works best. People want to OWN things, and that goes for music as well.

Now that Apple has killed the DRM model, there is even less interest in subscriptions, 256K AAC has helped.

With the Rhapsody iPhone app, you can have your subscription, and buy songs (from Apple).

That should satisfy most people who want this, and no doubt there will be others.

I was able to convince people to try them, but it took more than a 30 second commercial or easy sound bite. It took them seeing someone using it, and explaining the advantage to get over that initial reluctance.

Short of having an in-person spokesperson to have that conversation, it is hard to convey that advantage in an ad-based format.

I think subscription services have potential, but it's going to take someone with better marketing savvy to make the message work using standard advertising media and timelength.

I hold some optimism that they could eventually find a sustainable niche because I've seen more people become more open to the idea in the last few years. As more and more people stream movies with Netflix, or experience the fun of (more limited) services like Pandora etc., I think more of them are open to the subscription model.

It's version one. Like all things software, it needs some updating.

Maybe.

But it'll probably fail too.

Really? If Apple told you tomorrow that, for $15 a month, you could get 10 MP3 downloads and for another $5 a month you could listen to 90% of the rest of the iTunes library any time you want, would you turn that down?!?!

You have to explain why they are failing. It's fine to say how great they are, and for some, no doubt they are. but many more who are on the service are moving off than new people are moving in.

These people who are leaving don't need hype to make them understand the service's advantages (if any to them), because they are already on it.

So why are so many disenchanted with them?

There must be some good reason. If you could point that out, from a users viewpoint, and make them understand, then, maybe, they could fix the problem.

Unless its fundamental one that can't be fixed, though they have tried by giving away a small number of songs each month.

I think the fundamental problem is that many people who try the services find that they are paying just to sample tracks they could hear somewhere else before doing what they really want to do with those tracks, which is to buy them.

Once they realize that, they leave the service. The rest know they can hear the songs somewhere else and so don't even bother to join.

I would say they don't understand the idea, and it is marketed poorly. Also none of these other options have the clout that the iTunes Store has. The iTunes Store with a $5 a month unlimited previews option could potentially be successful if it were marketed as such. Unfortunately there is no reason for Apple to implement such an idea since they would only be taking business from themselves.

What's more interesting is how you forget about all the Napster, and Rhapsody users. Number of units sold have nothing to do with the huge amount of subscribers, but hey... go ahead and keep shelling out $ for tacks you couldn't care less about in 5 years... at least I'm being real with myself...

I think there are other problems that can lead to people leaving, such as:

Poor interface (Yahoo Music Engine...blech)

Poor selection of music (not a large enough library)

Difficulty syncing due to poorly functioning DRM, very slow transfer times etc. (Plagued Yahoo and Rhapsody in the past)

These very serious issues led many people to leave these services for very valid reasons. BUT, they are not flaws in subscription services as a concept, they are just flaws in early attempts at implementation.

I participate in alot of these forums, and the people leaving aren't complaining that subscription services disappointed them in what they offer in theory, rather that they were very frustrated with the crappy UI, malfunctioning DRM, slow response times, etc. etc. If the software had functioned as intended, and worked with the myriad of MP3 players it was supposed to, many of these people would have stayed.

I find it interesting that the article is basically reviewing a product that has not even been released yet. Items such as OLED's lifecycle can certainly be argued, but I think that a hands-on comparison between the ZuneHD and the Touch would be more objective. Perhaps we'll see something in the next few days, when the device is in the hands of consumers and reviewers, alike.

Yes. A lot of the music I listen to is from CDs I own, a collection built up over a lifetime. Perhaps it's so 20th century, but I still like buying CDs for albums I like. And, occasionally, I like my music (sometimes even a whole album) lossless.

I don't want to be locked into any music 'plan' (rent or buy). That's so 19th century, like those Columbia/Time Warner "5 CDs for a penny" type bait-and-switch.

I believe that people who like subscription services don't understand why most people don't care for them.

You are so thrilled to have the possibility of listening to any music on the service that you don't understand that most people don't WANT to listen to such a great variety of music.

Most people have a far more limited interest in music, and don't find the ability to choose from millions of tracks to listen to to be an advantage.

For example, people who listen to R&R are not generally interested in rap, or "international" music, or new age, or whatever. Having millions of those tracks available just isn't of interest.

The same thing can be said for those who listen to folk, or jazz, or country, or classical, or the aforementioned rap, new age, or international.

Or for that matter, any other genre, such as show music, movie music etc.

So the assumption that millions of listenable tracks for $15 a month is a draw for most people just isn't so.

Most people are interested in just a fraction of all the music available. Therefore, they don't see the same advantage as you do.

And as I mentioned, many music buyers do listen to FM or other music sources, and so can hear the songs before buying.

Gee, some of us even have friends who listen to music and can hear it there as well. A few of us even go to parties where music is playing, or concerts, or hear it on the Tv, on the music channels, or in concerts on cable.

I feel sorry if the only way some people hear music is on a service.

There are many other, more friendly ways.

I'm an Apple fan, and have a 3GS that I really like.

But MS has put a LOT of effort into the Zune HD, and I'm sure there are going to be pros and cons. Real competition in the devices and with the music business models is only a good thing for all of us!

the article is about specific "myths" not which one has what features.

I don't think you know what the meaning of the word "myth" is.

The iPod touch is a very successful game console. Some people don't like the lack of physical buttons, but that doesn't change the fact that it's a very successful game console. It just is, (successful) it's a fact not a myth.

A myth is something that people believe to be true but isn't actually true. Get it?

Because - I'll bet - if the renting model works, more iTunes consumers would rent from Apple than Rhapsody. (And Apple would rather keep that part of the cash flow too).

If something is failing, then it's easy to say it's because of poor marketing rather than the fact that the idea itself is a failure. There has been plenty of marketing from many sources, and all of it has failed. That's pretty amazing, isn't it?

Don't forget that the iTunes store wasn't always so dominant. For much of its life, it was much smaller. And subscription services first came about when iTunes was small, so that's not a factor, though it may seem that way now.

The truth is that while the iTunes store took off, subscription services did not. And you may remember that almost everyone was predicting that they were the wave of the future.

And even Amazon is doing ok with about 8.5% of the music business sales. That came much later. No subscription service is doing nearly as well as Amazon's. So it's not just itunes, though that's the 600 pound gorilla.

What do you mean "locked in"? I'm saying for $5 a month you have unlimited access to millions of songs. You can still buy all the songs you want to your heart's content.

You really wouldn't spend in one month what many people spend on coffee each day to ADD that access to your existing music library?

Whoa! I didn't forget about anyone. I mentioned all of those services.

You are forgetting that all of those same services are failing. They are all losing money, and seeing their subscriptions shrink. There is no "huge" number of subscribers. Rhapsody has the most, and they are now down to 750,000.

Face the facts.

What? that literally doesn't make any sense. That's the dumbest thing I've seen on this forum in, well at least 3 days... people really do go in circles when they are lost.

Yesterday's BestBuy flier was missing any advertising for the new iPod line yet the ZuneHD is heralded as arriving Sept 15th.

I know NO one who only listens to music via subscription service. Almost everyone who has one also enjoys Pandora or Slacker or sharing with friends or, yes, even BUYING ;-) music in addition to their subscription service.

In essence Microsoft has given us this expanded and accessible sea of music for $5 a month. Yes, you're right, if someone has a very narrow scope of music interest, then the $5 may not be worth it, but it's a downright trivial amount of money for most people (at least those who can afford iPhones and iPods and Zunes and so on), so I still think a subscription service that is implemented well still has a chance to succeed.

Save your troll comment for someone that really cares. I don't even remotely take anything you say in this forum as truth or fact just a Steve Jobs Jammie boy that is staying up to late.

You were gushing all over OLED in numerous AI forums. Face the facts. Apple let you down and now you are apologizing. I can pull all of them up 1 by 1 if you'd like.

And by the way if my comments were purely Canard then why do you bother commenting to my postings. Do the simple thing and put me on your ignore list and put your Steve Jamies on and go to bed with the rest of the kids.

All of those problems are still with the services. They are now old enough so that they can't use teething problems as an excuse.

But you are also just talking about people on the service. Can I assume that those are people who, for the most part are choosing to remain with the service?

What about all those who are leaving? Most no doubt, have not taken part in the forums, so why are they leaving?

And what about the 90+% of music buyers who have not been interested in the services? They don't even know about the problems you've mentioned. They just don't like the concept.

I know how subscription services work, but have never been tempted in trying one. Like most people, I just like buying what I want, and can hear it in plenty of venues before doing so, if I need to.

(At this point, you are being a bit dense (perhaps on purpose), so I plan to stop after this.)

I really wouldn't. Not when the model is 'from here to forever.' (I made a more basic point about CDs too, which I notice you conveniently chose to ignore).

But then Apple would have to set up a service, and spend many tens of millions, if not more, to keep it running.

I don't see the gain.

This way, it not only costs them nothing, but they get some of Rhapsody's take, and sell songs too, all at no cost to themselves.

That's the ideal business model.

Melgross, thank you for responding. I have an Xbox, had two Zunes, and will have the new one tomorrow. As I said above, I also have an iPhone. To be sure, I am capable of distinguishing between them. In my post I was very clear where I was stating fact and where I was speculating. What do we have?

• Microsoft the game company
• XNA (implemented for Zune and Xbox)
• Announced Xbox Live integration with respect to media
• Box Art that clearly reads: "Games"
  
• A video clearly announcing games and displaying a 3D racing game, purportedly a port of Forza Motorsport 3
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ok612YNA_Sc

Actions speak louder than words, to borrow an old cliche. I'll leave it to you to connect the dots.

Your argument about the Xbox being a success only because of Microsoft's willingness to lose money really has nothing to do with my discussion. So what? It is as if I should argue that Apple would not be as successful as it is now had MS not invest $150 Million in what appeared to be a dying company. After all, what company would do that?

agion1

So you're saying that of the more than two dozen subscription services, most of which are now gone, none were properly done?

Then what's the chance that one will ever be properly done?

All sorts of things have been tried. So far, none of them have.

And most people have a somewhat narrow interest in music, not just some.

Yes, they learn from Rhapsody's success (or lack of it). If Rhapsody turns out to be hugely successful (by which I mean that revenues will exceed the 'many tens of millions') it's a no-brainer for Apple. If it's a bust, nothing changes. Either way, Apple has nothing to lose.

the 17,000 hour half life was a revision by a third party on a Sony claim of 30,000 hours.


I did note that the OLED display on an older device of mine seemed plenty bright to me. A sample of one doesn't conclude an argument, but I do wonder in practical terms whether the brightness factor is actually an issue when all is said an done. Neither the article writer, nor myself have seen the Zune HD in action. It is likely I may never have the opportunity.


I didn't say "poor" so you shouldn't put it in quotes like I did. I said "inferior", which is different. Just a minor point. I wasn't really having fun either. What I was trying to demonstrate was that you could not conclude that as a whole LCDs were poor based on looking at a MacBook LCD in exactly the same way you can't conclude that OLEDs are poor simply by evaluating that type of display on the Sony Cellphone. This appears to be the conclusion the author is making.

Amazon was a well established online retailer prior to introducing music downloads and itunes was required to sync the most popular mp3 player on the market. These services had other things going for them than pay per download songs. Napster on the other hand went legit, and hoped some of its users would follow (they didn't). Anyway, we won't agree on this, so I'll leave it be from here on in.

No, you can't assume that. I'm talking about people posting that they were leaving the service, and WHY, and the reason was never "I've had an epiphany and realize that owning is better than renting", it's because "I can't sync the music to my MP3 player" or "The software is slow and crappy", and so on. Almost everyone announcing they were leaving the service was because of implementation issues.

Don't forget these other services didn't have the luxury of supporting their own narrow set of MP3 players like Apple does (which is one reason for their astounding success: a VERY smart move on Apple's part.) They were struggling to be compatible with literally dozens and dozens of players, and they had immense difficulty as a result.

MS borrowed a page from Apple's book, and has limited to supporting their own family of players. But by the time they came along the Apple juggernaut was in full swing, and they've had a hard time getting mindshare, and i think THAT is primarily a failure of marketing.

I'd love to see the exact stats, but I think you'd find Zune users are far more faithful than the users of Napster, Yahoo Music Engine, and Rhapsody (before they got their major implementation issues under control). Everyone I know who've purchased Zunes are still using them and happy with them. Yes I've seen posts occasionally on forums of disgruntled users, but once again the complaint is not "subscription service isn't worth it after all", it's that they're complaining about technical issues that prevent them successfully using it.

I'm a Rhapsody subscriber - I was a Yahoo! Music subscriber, but then they went kaput my lower Unlimited price did migrate to Rhapsody.

As many others have stated, subscription services are not for everyone. Probably the biggest concern I have is whether or nor Rhapsody will go the way of MSN and Yahoo! Music, in a few years. But, my reason for sticking it out is that the service allows me to sample more tracks / albums than I will ever have time to listen to. For a relatively low cost, I have found music that I would have probably never heard, and eventually purchased the music that I felt had long-term staying power.

Pandora / Last.fm have their place, but I find Rhapsody much easier to sample. I'm also happy to see that Rhapsody now has an App Store app, which hopefully mean that they are not going anywhere.

As for the Zune Pass, it's a similar setup but with the $10 MP3 monthly credit - which I feel is a great deal (assuming you have a Zune, of course). Again, it really depends on the individual and what they want out of their music service.

I'll tell you something, and I'm not trolling. I would really like to see an OLED device from Apple. I really would. That's the truth.

But, often Apple is right about these things. I've seen the Sony Tv, and it has one of the best images I've ever seen, but it's quite true that in a bright room the blacks go bluish, and the contrast drops. It's also true that the screens are failing at an alarming rate.

Despite this, I was interested in buying one, for, you know, historical reasons. But my wife thought I was nuts, and "discouraged" me from doing so.\

So if Apple thinks it's not ready for them yet, I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt based on what I know about this technology. but next year, watch out!

A few articles and videos showing the same technologies used by Zune HD against the old display technologies of the current iPod Touch:

http://www.pocketables.net/2009/03/a...amsung-p3.html


Video showing viewing angles between OLED tech against old LCD tech:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/designf...7614734510594/

Photos of the ZuneHD under light here:




So bright and shinny display at Best Buy (look the huge metal hallide lamps on the background):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9lLl2B0uAE


Show us a 100% white webpage, ifanbot.


Apple didnt go for OLED because they dont want to pay Samsung / LG to cut a 3.5inch 320*480 display when nobody uses that resolution/screen size for OLED making this process expensive to Cupertino and damage their profits. in short, Apple dont want to pony up the money from their pockets.



Windows Mobile and WinCE (zune OS run atop it) have been running under ARM CPU well before Apple came with that stupid mp3 named iPod.



From an owner of Radeon graphics cards, I still remember back in 2000-2002 when Nvidia GPU's were trashing the PowerVR GPUs. Mainly the Kyro graphics cards...hahaha.

Anyway....read this old article about the Tegra APX 2500
http://www.beyond3d.com/content/articles/101/1


uh? The Nvidia demo (done back in 2008) is running at:
- WVGA (800x480). higher than iphone. or you gonna lie to us and tell crap that the iphone resolution is better than that ?
- AA and AF. Where is that on the iphone, ifanbot ?


Like how all the ifanbots related websites promoted and overhyped the mythical camera on the iPod Touch, right ?

One interesting thing I looked at: The Sony Walkman X is a touch screen OLED player, and the user reviews on Amazon (albeit not many) were very complimentary on the screen quality. 1 of the 15 said it was "ok", and all the rest who commented on it seemed to really like it.

Bottom line is that I'll get to see tomorrow! Keeping my fingers crossed....

On a side note, it's bedtime for me, so thanks very much Mel for a fun distraction to pass some of the night while we discussed subscription services! I hope you get great enjoyment out of whatever music devices and/or sites/services you use in the future!

Best wishes,

Eddie

what a bunch of bs. i dont think its a coincidence that most of these strange microsoft "fans" are recent members with not too many posts.

The problem is that so far, MS has not really shown much of anything here. We have to take it on faith right now.

When you bring in the $150million argument, you have to know the history behind it. A great part of that investment was because Apple found that MS had their Quicktime code in WMP. This was part of the settlement. Otherwise, Apple was going to sue MS, and MS would have had to strip that code out. As that code was the only thing allowing video to be played properly in Windows, they didn't want that, so that gave more than a few things to Apple in exchange. Other concessions were the promise to continue writing Office for the Mac, patent exchanges, etc.

Apple had a lot of money in the bank at that time, and it's not clear how much that investment really mattered, other than for publicity, and the embarrassment of Bill Gates when he had to appear in Macworld by video explaining why they made the investment.

Believe whatever tinfoil corporate conspiracy you want, I don't work for Microsoft. Someone posted the link to this discussion on a bunch of Zune forums, which attracted a few of us over here.

Exactly! I was googling the Zune HD and this article appeared. I read it and duly noted the BS. I thought it would be interesting to dispel some of the misinformation (not all was misinformation). Hence, my registration and posting.

agion1