The Irrelevant Man - Page 2

[quote]Originally posted by groverat:

<strong>Act on what? You can't arrest suicide bombers, they're already dead.
Arafat doesn't have the power to shut down the jihad movement, why hold him responsible for that?</strong><hr></blockquote>

So why are we even talking about a Palestinian state? If they can't or won't police themselves why should Israel trust them?

[quote]<strong>Times change, and so do attitudes. Israel is not going away and only the hardest of the hardliners still think Israel will be pushed into the sea.

The gripe now amoung the young Muslims (which makes up the terrorist movement) is ... NOT Israel's right to exist. It's a bully pulpit that is obsolete.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Where have you been? That's nonsense and you should know better.

Scott, the thousands of Palestinians that protest in the streets with signs aren't peaceful? They're all a bunch of suicide bombing psychotics?

I guess you can't see what you choose not to.

Roger, I've been on planet Earth, you?

The biggest nutjob of the nutjobs is bin Laden, disagree? What are his gripes?
1) Israel encroaching on Palestinian territory
2) American forces in Saudi Arabia
3) American involvement in Israel/Palestine
4) General American involvement in the Middle East

I haven't seen one instance of him griping about Israel existing in the first place. And he's about as hardline as you get. You have old farts like the Israeli cabinet member that was recently assassinated talking the "push 'them' into the sea" talk, but they're getting old. Sharon is a holdover from this era. Arafat has been smacked around so much he's about as moderate and helpful as you can expect from a Palestinian with power. A lot of powerful Palestinians don't want to have to negotiate to get Israel to obey international law.

[quote]A lot of powerful Palestinians don't want to have to negotiate to get Israel to obey international law.<hr></blockquote>

That's cute. After all, those people have shown such an endearing adherence to international law themselves, like the one creating an Israeli and a Palestinian state that came into effect an hour before six (seven? eight?) nations invaded Israeli. And the one about intentional targeting of civilians being a war crime.

A lot of powerful Israelis don't want to negotiate to be allowed to live. But they did anyway, and got burned. They get my sympathy now.

[quote]Originally posted by groverat:
<strong>
The biggest nutjob of the nutjobs is bin Laden, disagree? What are his gripes?
1) Israel encroaching on Palestinian territory
2) American forces in Saudi Arabia
3) American involvement in Israel/Palestine
4) General American involvement in the Middle East

I haven't seen one instance of him griping about Israel existing in the first place.</strong><hr></blockquote>

That's because Israel isn't his number one concern. His primary bitch is just that we are over there. Hell, he even attacked us when we were in Somalia. That was just after Somalia had suffered a famine and we had intervened with food aid. (Clinton thought we needed to change the politics there. That effort failed and we ended up with 18 dead Rangers and a rep as a paper tiger.) The point is that he just doesn't want any infidels (that's us) anywhere in the land of Islam. However big a nutjob bin Laden is, Israel isn't his primary concern. It's just an issue with him. That doesn't mean it isn't the main concern of others though.

&gt;
The biggest nutjob of the nutjobs is bin Laden, disagree? What are his gripes?
1) Israel encroaching on Palestinian territory
2) American forces in Saudi Arabia
3) American involvement in Israel/Palestine
4) General American involvement in the Middle East&lt;

Groverat, you're a blithering idiot. Bin Laden doesn't give a fuck about the Palestinians, he didn't mention them at all until he realized he was losing support from Arabs.

As for your other repeated jibes at Israel you are so clueless it doesn't pay to argue with you. You have it in your mind that Israel is the bad guy, so just keep it there. If Israel was like any other country on earth they would have pushed all the Palestinians into Jordan, which is a majority Palestinian country, or,Israel could have acted like the Arabs and exterminated all the Arabs they came across. Tell you what, Groverat, go to the Middle East and live with your Arab brothers. I'll give you a week before you come back with a renewed respect for the only Democracy in the Middle East-Israel.........................................

Arafat is a slime ball. Just look at that old footage of him as a younger man. You know, speaking before the UN. Anyone with those glasses and that jacket can't be trusted.

steve:

bin Laden talked about Palestine back when they were praising his name in the streets and selling T-shirts with his image like hotcakes. That was before we went in and wrecked shop on the punk-assed Taliban.

[quote]You have it in your mind that Israel is the bad guy, so just keep it there.<hr></blockquote>

You'll notice (if you care to) I made it very clear to say there is no bad guy. Neither group has clean hands.

You can take that "love it or leave it" shit and shove it up your ass, that's the last resort of someone who has either run out of arguments or doesn't understand the other person's position.

scott:

So funny that earlier to chastized me for being one-sided.

Where are the Israeli peace, love & understanding movements?

Israel and Palestine are two sides of the same goddam coin. I guess because I refuse to just vilify Palestinians and cheer on Sharon the murdering warmonger I come across as an anti-Israeli, but that's a problem in your own perception, not mine.

towel:

[quote]And the one about intentional targeting of civilians being a war crime.<hr></blockquote>

Both sides are guilty of this.

[quote]A lot of powerful Israelis don't want to negotiate to be allowed to live.<hr></blockquote>

Pound that pulpit, it's really helping things over there.

Israel has broken international law, so have Palestinians.

And as for the wars, you'll notice that not only did Israel win, they absolutely slaughtered the Arabs. Israel defeated the entire Egyptian air force in less than 2 hours. They more than doubled the size of their territory in less than a week.
Oh yeah, they're hurting.

A Hamas suicide bomber blows up a bus and kills 8 people. Israel retaliates and kills 30 people with rocket attacks. (And that's a generous ratio, the death totals are far more skewed in favor of the Israelis)

Are the murders tragic? Absolutely. On both sides.
Are civilians killed? Absolutely. On both sides.

Hamas != Palestine.

roger:

If it makes you happy, change it to the 4th point. Those aren't orders of importance, just a list.

[quote]Originally posted by groverat:

<strong>And as for the wars, you'll notice that not only did Israel win, they absolutely slaughtered the Arabs. Israel defeated the entire Egyptian air force in less than 2 hours. They more than doubled the size of their territory in less than a week.
Oh yeah, they're hurting.</strong><hr></blockquote>

They gave all that land back thus demonstrating their good faith vis a vis the Egyptians. Your point? Why don't the Palestinians follow that lead?

[quote]<strong>roger:

If it makes you happy, change it to the 4th point. Those aren't orders of importance, just a list.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Fine but confining your attention to bin Laden doesn't make your original point that nobody is questioning Israel's right to exist.

[quote]Originally posted by Matsu:
<strong>Arafat is a slime ball. Just look at that old footage of him as a younger man. You know, speaking before the UN. Anyone with those glasses and that jacket can't be trusted.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Honestly? you are joking right?

Well just look at him! Don't let the dottage fool you. A middle eastern man should know better than to look like that for the benefit of the western world. If it were a film, he'd be some sort of cabbie, or car salesman, or pawn shop owner. Maybe a sweaty beauracrat (if he were a tad fatter) abusing his power to hold up your paper-work, or leering at the tight blonde heroine of our flick. At best, that's the image. Give him a little more power, and he'd be the villain in a summer block buster. Like that other slime ball, the investor, that twitchy Al-waleed character, with his "Braendz" and his harems. This is no better than Castro with that damn green uniform that's never been pressed in how many thousand washings. And the beard? Come on.

At least Sharon, and Netanyahu before him, knew how to put on a suit. I find war crimes less severe if we can get the guy in a suit.

I'm not an enviromentalist, but if ever there were an argument to be made for alternative energy, this is it. Can you imagine? Fvck-em all! We got the water, and we don't need the oil. HAHAHA. Sorry Abdul, but I hear they could use some of that oil over in China. Go deal with them, we're not in that business anymore.

Now I'm fvcking tired. And the bloody cost of living is going up too. What happen to children in sweat-shops? Yesterday I saw Timberlands for $180. Granted that's Canadian, but 180! Can we get some one over to malaysia to see what's up with this? Is Kathy Lee busy? Kids need jobs too! And what about those upitty Argentinians? Jeesh, for a country with nothing but oil and Nazis...

[quote]They gave all that land back thus demonstrating their good faith vis a vis the Egyptians. Your point? Why don't the Palestinians follow that lead?<hr></blockquote>

You haven't been listening!

They haven't given all the land back, that's the entire point. They still occupy Palestinian territory. The U.N. has told them to get out, the U.S. has told them to get out, they won't get out.

Crazy Palestinians are pissed off about it and are bombing discoteques. Then Israelis rocket attack a Palestinian neighborhood. Then crazy Palestinians bomb... and the circle continues.

[quote]Fine but confining your attention to bin Laden doesn't make your original point that nobody is questioning Israel's right to exist.<hr></blockquote>

I offer bin Laden up as one of the more whacked-out Muslim terrorists. He is just the most notable of the moment.

That's an old issue, Israel is here to stay and everyone knows it. Two huge defeats at the hands of the Israeli army taught the Arabs that. And if it is still there to an extent (which I'm sure there is residue), it is most certainly not the main impetus.

[quote]Originally posted by groverat:
<strong>A Hamas suicide bomber blows up a bus and kills 8 people. Israel retaliates and kills 30 people with rocket attacks. (And that's a generous ratio, the death totals are far more skewed in favor of the Israelis)

Are the murders tragic? Absolutely. On both sides.
Are civilians killed? Absolutely. On both sides.

Hamas != Palestine.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I am going to diagree with this blanket statement.

Sure, people dying is tragic, no matter where it happens. But to say that just because civilians die on both side that makes them the same. I know you are going to disagree with me but Israel makes a point of hitting militant sites. Sure they are not very careful about "collateral damage" but they are not randomly targeting busses and dicoteques. They are mainly military or otherwise related to Hamas or Islamic Jihad. Are they a bit over the top sometimes? Yes. But the alternative is to do what the US did, turn a blind eye to the attacks and acquiesse (sp?) to the terrorist demands. Or maybe just attack a couple of symbolic targets so that nobody gets hurt. What happened to the US, 9-11 anyone?

Great idea there...

And no, Hamas != Palestine just like Timothy McVeigh != Militias in the US. There are always radicals in any group. But that does not mean you don't punish the group or persons responsible.

Rat:
They haven't given all the land back, that's the entire point. They still occupy Palestinian territory. The U.N. has told them to get out, the U.S. has told them to get out, they won't get out.
Crazy Palestinians are pissed off about it and are bombing discoteques. Then Israelis rocket attack a Palestinian neighborhood. Then crazy Palestinians bomb... and the circle continues.

The circle starts with the Palestinians-no Palestinian violence = no Israeli retaliation. Do you really expect israel not to react? You wouldn't ecpect any other country to just stand there, would you? Nope, just Israel. You're a fool.

.................................................

Scott:

[quote]It's there. Look at the poll number of Israelis that support a Palestinian state. Last I heard was 60%, for example.<hr></blockquote>

Got any links? Any sources? (I mean, besides your ass.)

[quote]Rather large considering the constant bombing and the fact that the Palestinians want to push the Jews into the sea.<hr></blockquote>

The Palestinians want to push the Jews into the sea? Do you have to do actual mental exercises to live in such a black/white world or does it just come naturally to you?

I can't imagine why you can only see one side when your thought processes are that simplified. Very understanding of the complexity of this situation, you are.



Noah:

[quote]I know you are going to disagree with me but Israel makes a point of hitting militant sites.<hr></blockquote>

Not only am I going to disagree with that statement, objective truth is going to disagree with that.

Unless, of course, "militant sites" grows to include neighborhoods near the illegal Israeli settlements.

That's just an untrue statement.

Israel has been using home destruction as punishment since 1997. Every time Hamas or some whack job group bombs a bus, the Israeli army destroys Palestinian homes. This isn't conjecture, this is Israeli policy. Look up Regulation 119 if you don't believe me.

I don't know what you mean by "the same"

[quote]Sure they are not very careful about "collateral damage" but they are not randomly targeting busses and dicoteques.<hr></blockquote>

This is also the difference between a nation's military and police force and rogue terrorist groups.

These aren't Israeli terrorists killing civilians, this is Israel's armed forces.

[quote]Sure they are not very careful about "collateral damage" but they are not randomly targeting busses and dicoteques.<hr></blockquote>

Who advocated just letting them go?

Why not send in armed forces to arrest people and bring them to Israel for trials? Why send helicopters to fire dozens of rockets then fly back home?

If peace is the goal, it doesn't make sense at all.

steve:

[quote]The circle starts with the Palestinians-no Palestinian violence = no Israeli retaliation.<hr></blockquote>

No Israeli occupation = no Palestinian violence. See, I can make idiotic generalizations, too.



[quote]Do you really expect israel not to react? You wouldn't ecpect any other country to just stand there, would you? Nope, just Israel. You're a fool.<hr></blockquote>

Yeah, it makes me happy when Israelis are killed. I also drown puppies and eat babies. I'm a real meanie-head.

Their means of reaction haven't been successful for the last 40 years, maybe it's time for a change of plans.

Rat:
Their means of reaction haven't been successful for the last 40 years, maybe it's time for a change of plans.


Why don't you go live there for a few years and YOU come up with a better idea.

By the way, you don't believe at least 60% of Israelis favored peace? Barak won his previous election, even with the attacks occurring, because the majority of Israelis favored creating a Palestinian State in return for peace. Sharon was elected because the Israelis saw the danger of a weak leader pushing ahead with a treaty while its citizens get slaughtered.

Israel is a DEMOCRACY. Find another democracy in the mideast. Its very easy to see that a majority of Israelis wanted peace just by their electoral process, they just came to the conclusion that they don't want peace at ANY price-good for them. Who the **** knows what the majority of Palestinians want? If 45% of Palestinians don't favor the treaty but want to continue terrorist attacks should Israel just hand over the land? The situation is not so cut and dry when you're over in your nice warm, safe bed and not 2 miles away from potential terrorists, is it Rat?

I don't expect you to get it because you claim Scott sees things in black and white, while its clear that you are the one who does. You need to pick up some history books and place some knowledge of the region into your brain. Apparently you know only what whatever rag you're reading tells you............................................... ...

This discussion seems to be getting a little bit out of hand. More entertaining yes, but less likely to get us anywhere...

Recently (the last three days or so) there has been heavy fighting between Palestinians inside the occupied territories... Today the Head of Jihad was detained. I hope this might lead to some imporvement in the next few days...

Steve666: have you yourself lived there? Let me tell you the story of the Nordic UN peace keeping forces (UNIFIL) that where stationed in south-Lebanon for almost 20 years, until the israelis withdrew last year.

These where mainly young scaninavians with no knowledge about the conflict. Most went there with a very pro-israel attitude (like most scaninavians have had after WWII). The fact is that over 90% percent came back with a very negative attitude towards the Israeli policy in occupied south lebanon. They even said the understood why Hizbolla (!) waged guerilla war on the Isreal!!!

If you think Isreal is such a great DEMOCRACY, ask yourself this... how can a democratic country uccupie a land and its people for over 40 years without giving them the basic human rights of democracy, like the right to work and vote...? The only comparable democracies whom have practiced the same kind of policy are in fact the Aparteid Regime in old South Africa and some of the southern states of the US in the past...
Do you know how many of the palestinians who are actually considered Israeli citizens with the right to vote...? compared to how many palestinians who live directly or indirectly under the rule of Israel?
And I haven't even mentioned the the hundreds of thousands (over a million?) of refugees that Isreal will never allow to return back to their homes...

Before the Oslo-agreement the palestinians had been living with this situation for decades, with more and more land beeing confiscated, more and more resource taken away...

Talking about the last 40 years? ... Please...
do some reading yourself...

Moron:
&gt;If you think Isreal is such a great DEMOCRACY, ask yourself this... how can a democratic country uccupie a land and its people for over 40 years without giving them the basic human rights of democracy, like the right to work and vote...? The only comparable democracies whom have practiced the same kind of policy are in fact the Aparteid Regime in old South Africa and some of the southern states of the US in the past...
Do you know how many of the palestinians who are actually considered Israeli citizens with the right to vote...? compared to how many palestinians who live directly or indirectly under the rule of Israel?
And I haven't even mentioned the the hundreds of thousands (over a million?) of refugees that Isreal will never allow to return back to their homes...
Before the Oslo-agreement the palestinians had been living with this situation for decades, with more and more land beeing confiscated, more and more resource taken away...
Talking about the last 40 years? ... Please...
do some reading yourself... &lt;


Arab Israelis have full voting rights and even have representation in the Knesset. I don't know what fantasy world you live in. Tell me of one Arab country that treats its Jewish citizens as well as Israel treats its Muslim citizens. Can't, can you?

The Palestinians have always had the right to work in Israel and the territories. The only time they are cut off from Israel is after they kill someone-small point to you I know.

Of course Israel isn't going to let the defeated Palestinians move back to what is now Israel. Jews would then be outnumbered by Arabs. They can move to the new Palestinian State which would have existed now if Arafat wasn't such an incompetent fool.

Guess what? No land would have been confiscated (and its not a done deal-Israel has said they would force settlers out of areas for a just peace), if the Arabs had recognized Israel's right to exist decades ago. The population of Israel has turned more right wing in the past 20 or so years with large waves of immigration of Jews from Arab countries. Know why? Because Jews were so mistreated by the Arabs that they hate their ****ing guts. What goes around comes around. When the conqueror offers peace, take it................................................ .....

First of all, I think you blew your whole argument by starting with the word Moron...

I have never stated that Arab-israelis don't have the right to vote... But I have a hard time dealing with how easy it is to become a jewish citizen of Isreal (many russian immigrants haven't practiced judaism for generations). While it is virtualy impossible to become an arab citizen of Isreal. (No immigrants accepted here)... In my fantasy world a refugee of war should be admitted back to his home before it is given to some random guy who just moved in from Russia.

2nd) are you saying that because most arab states have corrupt non-democratic governments who treat jews (amongst others) miserably, it gives the [Democracy] Isreal any right to treat arabs as secondary citizens?

3rd) are you saying that most of the right wing isreali voters are arab-jews? I would like to see those statistics, please.
Many Israeli jews feel that the current politics are beeing domintated by interst groups of new imigrants with no tradition in isreali politics.
Some of the reason for Sharons victory in the last ellections was that many isrealis stayed home because they had no faith in Barak nor Sharon...(the attendance was a record low)...

4th) Why would the refugees go to live in Gaza (probably the worst place to live in the middel-east, already packed with refugee camps), when this is not were they fled from?

5th) The original zionist concept of the State of Isreal stretched well into Jordan and Egypt. Don't tell me that the land confiscation has nothing to do with the expanding of the State of Isreal. Many isreli hardliners consider it their godgiven right to build settlements. And Isreal has NEVER offered to abandon all of these.
Remember we are only talking about land settled after 1967 here, when Isreal occupied the last of the palestinian territories... So these are settlements built after 1967. Get it?
Did you read anything since your last post?

&gt;First of all, I think you blew your whole argument by starting with the word Moron...&lt;

I call em as I see em.


&gt;I have never stated that Arab-israelis don't have the right to vote... But I have a hard time dealing with how easy it is to become a jewish citizen of Isreal (many russian immigrants haven't practiced judaism for generations). While it is virtualy impossible to become an arab citizen of Isreal. (No immigrants accepted here)... In my fantasy world a refugee of war should be admitted back to his home before it is given to some random guy who just moved in from Russia.&gt;

You expect Israel to allow their enemies to become a citizen? How many Taliban are we inviting in to become Americans? Come on, please get serious.


&gt;2nd) are you saying that because most arab states have corrupt non-democratic governments who treat jews (amongst others) miserably, it gives the [Democracy] Isreal any right to treat arabs as secondary citizens? &lt;

I'm saying that Arab Israelis are treated MUCH better than any Arab anywhere. They know it also, which is why they are still Israeli. They can move any where they want, you know. Ever wonder why they stay under Israeli rule? Because they live better there than ANYWHERE in the Middle East. In fact Arab Israelis were interviewed a while back about whether they would move to a newly created Palestinian state. Almost all of them said they would stay right where they are in Israel-interesting, huh?


&gt;3rd) are you saying that most of the right wing isreali voters are arab-jews? I would like to see those statistics, please.&lt;

Perhaps most aren't, but they are the ones who popularized the notion to settle in Palestinian areas. The European Jews who fist settled in Israel would never have agreed to it without the impetus of Arab Jews.


&gt;4th) Why would the refugees go to live in Gaza (probably the worst place to live in the middel-east, already packed with refugee camps), when this is not were they fled from?&lt;

How do you know where they fled from? Gaza was part of occupied Palestine(Palestine has ALWAYS been occupied by one country or another).


&gt;5th) The original zionist concept of the State of Isreal stretched well into Jordan and Egypt. Don't tell me that the land confiscation has nothing to do with the expanding of the State of Isreal. Many isreli hardliners consider it their godgiven right to build settlements. And Isreal has NEVER offered to abandon all of these.&lt;

Incorrect, the original zionists would have settled for the strip of land Israel was given by the UN. After winning all the wars with the Arabs they could have easily forced all the Arabs out of the West Bank and into Jordan. They didn't, did they? Menachim Begin, a virulent zionist, gave back the Sinai to Egypt in exchange for peace, didn't he? The settlements were a combination of ultra right wing appeasement by the Israeli government and the Israeli realization that the Palestinians would never accept Israel's right to exist. Rabin, and even more so Barak, offered to dismantle the settlements for a just peace.


&gt;Remember we are only talking about land settled after 1967 here, when Isreal occupied the last of the palestinian territories... So these are settlements built after 1967. Get it?
Did you read anything since your last post? &lt;

Israel never would have occupied the last of these territories if they weren't attacked or about to be attacked. Israel offered to give the territories to Jordan, but Jordan refused. That would have been your Palestinian state right there, wouldn't it? However, Israel would still have existed and the Arabs couldn't accept that at the time. Like I said, you reap what you sow............................................... ....