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Microsoft sells restrictive new WiMo Marketplace via iPhone ads - Page 2

post #41 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichL View Post

It's wrong. Once again, don't believe Prince McLean's FUD.

Do you think they changed the bold bit before or after Prince wrote the article this thread is based on?

It's obvious they changed it but when?

"Q: I previously heard that you only had 7 days to submit a free update. Has this changed?

A: Yes, we originally communicated that only application updates submitted within 7 days of their publish date would benefit from a free submission. After talking to the developer community and better understanding the dynamics and frequency of application updates, we have decided to extend the original 7-day window and make it permanent. This means that if an application has been previously approved in the marketplace the developer can submit updates to it without incurring any additional fees."
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post #42 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by talksense101 View Post

How did Apple compete when Microsoft was running all over them? They became a "premium" provider. They survived because they were able to deliver value. Microsoft is trying this to survive against the iPhone and Android. They have little to lose.

MS' business model, the corporate culture at MS, their entire attitude when it comes to how the user sould interact with technology, isn't even remotely set up for anything "Premium."
post #43 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by talksense101 View Post

How did Apple compete when Microsoft was running all over them? They became a "premium" provider. They survived because they were able to deliver value. Microsoft is trying this to survive against the iPhone and Android. They have little to lose.

the iPod saved Apple. OS X for all the hype still has a tiny part of the market and most people don't care what Apple does with it.
post #44 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by al_bundy View Post

the iPod saved Apple.

And the iMac.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...Bondi_Blue.jpg
post #45 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quadra 610 View Post

And the iMac.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...Bondi_Blue.jpg

what is the Mac marketshare after all these years? I was looking at Apple's 2000 - 2003 earnings for some research a while ago and 2002 they lost money. 2003 was when the iPod came to Windows
post #46 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by al_bundy View Post

what is the Mac marketshare after all these years?

Which segment of the market are you talking about? Low-end? Mid? Premium?
post #47 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by al_bundy View Post

why would anyone want a used computer?

After their app submission to Apple's App Store has made them a tons of money, they can buy a new Mac. So I wouldn't worry.

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post #48 of 101
WOW... That just helped me make my decision. I'm getting an Android phone.

Just kidding. See what I did there?
post #49 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by al_bundy View Post

the iPod saved Apple. OS X for all the hype still has a tiny part of the market and most people don't care what Apple does with it.

Yep got it in one!

That's why Microsoft is spending hundreds of millions of dollars trying to persuade people to stop switching. They just don't care.
post #50 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by piot View Post

Yep got it in one!

That's why Microsoft is spending hundreds of millions of dollars trying to persuade people to stop switching. They just don't care.

And hundreds of millions of dollars more to give a "Mac Like" user experience with every MS OS release.

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post #51 of 101
there are a few things that Microsoft is doing right in this game.

in particular, they have put it right out from the start what will NOT be allowed. In much clearer terms than Apple apparently did. Rather like how the "I'm a PC, I'm a Mac" ad campaign was based on Apple researching the top gripes about Windows and responding how Mac ain't like that, Microsoft has clearly done their homework about the gripes on the App Store, decided from day one how they feel about the various issues and set the rules from day one. And their promise for a full and detailed explanation of rejection is a slam on the complaints of form letter "You have been rejected" replies from Apple.

as for the cost issue. Well if it means they can hire staff to give those detailed replies and quickly, it really is a win. It sucks but if they give enough details that someone only has to resubmit once to fix bugs that's only $200. and if it keeps all the free farts apps and such out, is that really a great loss.

as for the not right. well there's being behind the times major. Apple was one year into the game when they were ready to release 3rd party apps (under particular rules but still). I need not repeat how old WinMo is cause the article did it like 10 times. but it's a lot more than a couple of years.

Also, I think it is a major mistake to treat WinMo and the Zune as two totally different creatures. yes some of that could be cause of all the anti-trust they get tossed at them. but one think that really works with the ipod touch and the iphone is that the touch can be the gateway for those that aren't on ATT and don't want to pay a huge ETF to switch. Some of them, especially ones not yet on a smart phone, get a touch, learn the interface, buy a few apps etc. and then in a few months when the contract is up, they cut ties, buy the phone and give the touch to the kids to keep playing their games.

even with the focus on the Zune as just a media player and not a game machine, a common interface, syncing software etc would be of valuable. course they would likely base it off the ipod and mac unfriendly Zune software so only PC devotees could have a WinMo phone. but i'm sure someone will make a 'double twist' for the mac if that were to happen.
post #52 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by piot View Post

Yep got it in one!

That's why Microsoft is spending hundreds of millions of dollars trying to persuade people to stop switching. They just don't care.

and they still couldn't get it right. even Intel was able to make cool commercials.

Dell had cool TV ads with the Dell dude years ago. Apple had good ones but they need a refresh. the iphone ads were cool. when my wife called to cancel her VZ wireless they tried to tell her they had good phones as well. she said she wanted to shake her phone and get a restaraunt recommendation and there was nothing the VZW CSR could say to top that
post #53 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by al_bundy View Post

the biggest barrier to writing iphone apps is that you need a Mac. that's at least $1000.

$99 might sound like a lot but Visual Studio will run on any cheapo PC you can find from the last 5 years. you can even get Visual Studio Express for free from MSDN


Judging by the amount of apps submitted, it can't be a very big barrier, and don't forget the "mac mini" at $699.00.
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post #54 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rot'nApple View Post

And hundreds of millions of dollars more to give a "Mac Like" user experience with every MS OS release.

Correct.

In fact, the biggest x-factor in the industry today as far as operating systems go is OS X.

Apple provides the example. Everyone and their dog is trying to make their experience more "Mac-like."

It definitely matters what Apple does with it. The fact that it's confined to the Premium end of the market has no effect on its desirability. In fact, it has only increased its desirability over the years.
post #55 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by Psych_guy View Post

I wonder of the same 'softie trolls will come out for this article too. You know, the ones who had less than 5 posts and were probably paid by Microsoft to spew their talking points here?

Where would it be profitable for MS to spend money on having people post Pro-MS here? Those who visit this site are pretty determined in their convictions of computers, regardless of OS they use.

As for the article... I think MS will shoot themselves in the foot by following Apple's "Big Brother" method. I don't want their hands in everyone's code more than it has to be. I'm seriously loving all the closed computing arenas that are popping up.

Aside from the Ads in iPhone softwares, this is NOT Apple news!
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post #56 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gwydion View Post

It's an one time fee, submitting updates is free.

That's not what the articles have said.
post #57 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichL View Post

There's one big difference that Prince fails to point out - the traditional method of installing apps on WinMo will still be open to application developers. Don't like the $99 fee or the restrictions? Distribute your app through your website.

The real problem for Microsoft is that carriers like Verizon want to replace Microsoft's app store with their own. That's only going to confuse consumers.



Actually, it's coming to 6.1 (and possible 6.0) phones too.

Can you point to where MS has said this, because I can't find anywhere where they did.
post #58 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichL View Post

The current Windows Mobile SDKs do. They offer more access than Android or iPhone and slightly less than Symbian.



It's wrong. Once again, don't believe Prince McLean's FUD.

Good, so they changed it from what they had announced. Apparently their original intention to charge was so lame that it was successfully fought. I'll give them credit for wising up.
post #59 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by talksense101 View Post

I wonder if Apple will eventually charge some money for reviews. But the money Apple makes from downloads of paid applications hopefully will make it easier to offset the review cost. Apple is driving to get volume, M$ is playing the quality trump card.

MS is playing the "We know we won't get many apps for the phones, so we'll just pretend it's all about the quality" card.
post #60 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gwydion View Post

"Q: Do I need to pay the $99 fee again to submit an application update?
A: No. If your application has been previously certified and published in the catalog, you can submit subsequent updates without incurring any additional fees. The application update will be made available through Windows Marketplace for Mobile to all customers that have downloaded your application."

Gee, thanks for quoting from a link that was already posted.

But MS DID require them to pay again after 7 days. It's just that they've been convinced to wave that from what was no doubt, a barrage of protests.

It's bad enough that they will get very few apps submitted because of all the other reasons, with that in place, they wouldn't have gotten any.
post #61 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by Owl View Post

Guess what the $99 submission screams out. Little to no free apps! Why would a developer spend time developing a free app, only to have to pay upwards of $99 to submit just once? If it gets rejected, even more money goes down the drain and the developer then sees it's not financially viable to give out the app for free.

But, so far at least, they are all going to be free apps.

What an incentive!
post #62 of 101
"Luke. Come to the dark side!"

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post #63 of 101
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post #64 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by al_bundy View Post

why would anyone want a used computer?

Many people buy used computers. There's a large industry selling them.

Or you could just buy a low end Mini, and hook it to your monitor and keyboard.

The reason this works is because there's now over 50 million devices to sell software to.

Here, there will be none, and so far, with only free apps being approved by MS, what would be the point?

The would have to show developers that their shrinking user base will again expand. If they can't show that happening, why would a developer want to write for it? Even if they can sell a program from the web site, do they really want to sell into a shrinking market?

And then there's that old problem with different interfaces, different hardware, etc. How many of the 6.5 phones will be able to run their programs effectively?

Apple has worked around these problems.

RichL SAYS that older 6.1 and 6.0 phones will be able to run these new programs, but that's not likely in most cases because of the differences between 6.5 and the older versions, even if MS will allow it, which we don't know.

And then when 7 comes out by the end of 2010, it will be VERY different. so what happens then?

Developers must think about that. If, as is likely, 6.5 doesn't gain traction, one, because it's not really that much better than 6.1, and two, t won't be around after another year, why would they want to even bother?

I think that MS knows that too, and it's one reason why they're talking about few programs, mostly written by themselves.
post #65 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by al_bundy View Post

what is the Mac marketshare after all these years? I was looking at Apple's 2000 - 2003 earnings for some research a while ago and 2002 they lost money. 2003 was when the iPod came to Windows

Apple's marketshare is over three times what it was a few years ago. That's both domestic, and foreign.

Meanwhile, the overall PC market has risen less than 30% in the same time.
post #66 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by charlituna View Post

there are a few things that Microsoft is doing right in this game.

in particular, they have put it right out from the start what will NOT be allowed. In much clearer terms than Apple apparently did. ...

No, this is actually a myth.

Whatever criticisms Apple has got about not being clear on the terms, they *did* right from the very beginning set out the exact same points that Microsoft has here in crystal clear unambiguous terms. Apple actually had a longer list of do's and don'ts than the one from Microsoft described in this article, which is a subset of Apple's list.

I'm not saying that Apple has never been unclear, but on the basics, which is all we are talking about here, they have been exactly as clear (perhaps more so) than Microsoft.
post #67 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hattig View Post

This Prince bloke is really really denigrating my opinion of AppleInsider with some of his recent FUDfest posts. There's just no class, and it doesn't really provide anything of value to the readers apart from confused flamefests in the comments.

You are agreeing with somebody (Rich L) who is mistaken, yet arrogantly pulling a Kenye/ Joe Wilson "You Lie!" moment that you fell for.

The article clearly cites Microsoft's developer rules. Rich L tries to introduce confusion by posting a link to a blog saying you don't pay extra for each additional update after you pay the $99 submit fee the first time. The article doesn't say you have to pay extra for updates. But it does say that if your submission is rejected, you have to keep paying again, which is true. So the article is 100% right in everything it says, and links to the page for you to check out yourself.

Jumping on some moron's "You lie!" bandwagon is disgraceful, and trying to malign Prince and AI about your own misunderstanding makes you a fool, too. We are reading free content here. You don't have any room to prance around like an unsatisfied princess. There are plenty of sites that don't say anything useful and just cater to the ignorant crowds with PR BS. Go there if you can't take some accurate reporting with a touch of expose.
post #68 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by al_bundy View Post

the biggest barrier to writing iphone apps is that you need a Mac. that's at least $1000.

$99 might sound like a lot but Visual Studio will run on any cheapo PC you can find from the last 5 years. you can even get Visual Studio Express for free from MSDN

Why does it have to be over $1000 to use the SDK. There is the Mac Mini or a used Mac. Yes, people buy used Macs all the time because they dont want to spend over $1000 for a Mac. If you want to talk about free, then there is the Hackintosh. If you can develop for the iPhone then you are more than adequate to get OS X installed on generic x86 hardware. They make it quite simple.


Quote:
Originally Posted by al_bundy View Post

OS X for all the hype still has a tiny part of the market and most people don't care what Apple does with it.

Of course it is, because Apple selling Mac OS X with Macs. In the US they have 10% of the entire market, including netbooks, despite not selling $400 notebooks, yet despite that measly 10% they take in one-third of every dollar from the industry. That is more than HP with there 25% marketshare by unit. They also have 92% of all computer sales for machines over $1000. Why you think that those numbers are not impressive means that you are choosing not to look at the facts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

But, so far at least, they are all going to be free apps.

What an incentive!

This is what I dont understand about MS. They seem to purposely be doing everything they can to ruin the company sometimes.
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post #69 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by al_bundy View Post

the iPod saved Apple. OS X for all the hype still has a tiny part of the market and most people don't care what Apple does with it.

I guess you windoze people will never "get it". Mac's OS appears on ONE, only one computer company's machine's whereas windoze appears on all the rest, so when you compare marketshare it will always favor microsoft.

That very decision by BOTH companies, Apple restricted to Apple machines, windoze to hopefully be on everybody's machine, is what INSURES Mac OS to be a superior OS ..... Apple knows EXACTLY the quality of machine to build their OS to because it also manufactures every computer it will be on.

Windoze will ALWAYS be an inferior OS because it is trying to be everything to everybody, which means , of course, it has to appeal to the basement dwellers of the computing world.

Two very different business models, nothing wrong with either one. One is designed to maximize marketshare (and hopefully profits) while the other one is designed to build "insanely great products" and give the best user experience possible.
The most "amazing " thing is, although not surprising to most smart businesses, Apple's model also makes a boatload of profit. ..... Hmmmm, happy customers AND "insanely great" profits. Guess which one I prefer?

Finally, if you look at any of the complaints on these boards about Apple, they"re mostly about price, as in, the basement dwellers who want a mac, but don't want to pay much for it. Guess what, I want A BMW, but I don't want to pay that sticker price for it. Does that make a BMW a bad car ... no ... it makes me a "cheap Bastard".
Deal with it and move on , will you?
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post #70 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

No alternative browsers, no search, no media players

Microsoft's new Marketplace rules also prohibit any apps that attempt to "change the default browser, search client, or media player on the device."

Interesting article, aside from this point. If the conclusion is based on the quoted rule, 'change' could mean developers are not allowed to alter the default applications, or it could also mean that, should they make an alternative (such as a browser), they cannot reconfigure the phone to use their browser by default over Microsoft's. I would have considered both interpretations before reading that as a ban on these services...
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post #71 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

This is what I dont understand about MS. They seem to purposely be doing everything they can to ruin the company sometimes.

MS has a very big problem here. Despite Ballmer's BS about Win Mobile being on hundreds of millions of phones while the iPhone will get no marketshare whatever, it's going the other way around, and everyone knows it.

Apple has already sold more phones this quarter than ALL of the phones sold this quarter using Win Mobile. And Win Mobile is dropping. Most new phones are going to Android. Companies making Win Mobile phones are now dropping some models.

The iPhone, with all it's problems in security has now surpassed Win Mobile phones in use in business, MS's last stronghold.

So how are they going to court developers for this? It's going to be a problem.

Ms has said that there were over 30,000 apps for Win Mobile. It took ten years to get there. They also said that the iPhone either wouldn't get that many apps, or that it would take ages. Wrong again!

Now they and their supporters like to pretend that there are few good apps for the iPhone. Nonsense! I'm willing to bet that the percentage of bad apps for Win Mobile is at about the same percentage as for the iPhone. At least, there are more good apps for the iPhone than for win Mobile.

They also know that 6.5 won't last long, just until late 2010. 7 will be wildly different in order to compete better with the iPhone, and everything else.

So developing for 6.5, which is not very compatible with 6.1 or 6.0 is a very limited, and shrinking market, with varied phones.

Not very promising.

So they take on development themselves, and do what their money allows them to do, they give them away, and set the bar for third parties very low, price wise, and very high otherwise, such as with costs.
post #72 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xian Zhu Xuande View Post

Interesting article, aside from this point. If the conclusion is based on the quoted rule, 'change' could mean developers are not allowed to alter the default applications, or it could also mean that, should they make an alternative (such as a browser), they cannot reconfigure the phone to use their browser by default over Microsoft's. I would have considered both interpretations before reading that as a ban on these services...

They didn't use the word "replace", but still, "change" usually also mean "replace" in this context, so we'll have to see.

Apple allows other browsers on the iPhone, and there are several, but they must all use Webkit, though that's not much of a limitation as all but Firefox and IE are moving to it, and it's pretty much the default browser engine in mobile browsing anyway.
post #73 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

MS has a very big problem here. Despite Ballmer's BS about Win Mobile being on hundreds of millions of phones while the iPhone will get no marketshare whatever, it's going the other way around, and everyone knows it.

Apple has already sold more phones this quarter than ALL of the phones sold this quarter using Win Mobile. And Win Mobile is dropping. Most new phones are going to Android. Companies making Win Mobile phones are now dropping some models.

The iPhone, with all it's problems in security has now surpassed Win Mobile phones in use in business, MS's last stronghold.

So how are they going to court developers for this? It's going to be a problem.

Ms has said that there were over 30,000 apps for Win Mobile. It took ten years to get there. They also said that the iPhone either wouldn't get that many apps, or that it would take ages. Wrong again!

Now they and their supporters like to pretend that there are few good apps for the iPhone. Nonsense! I'm willing to bet that the percentage of bad apps for Win Mobile is at about the same percentage as for the iPhone. At least, there are more good apps for the iPhone than for win Mobile.

They also know that 6.5 won't last long, just until late 2010. 7 will be wildly different in order to compete better with the iPhone, and everything else.

So developing for 6.5, which is not very compatible with 6.1 or 6.0 is a very limited, and shrinking market, with varied phones.

Not very promising.

So they take on development themselves, and do what their money allows them to do, they give them away, and set the bar for third parties very low, price wise, and very high otherwise, such as with costs.

a lot of the problems go back 10 years to Bill Gates. Back when it was Windows CE he decreed that there is going to be a "consistent user experience" and so WinMo had to look close to what Windows on the desktop looked like. Of course it was clunky to use and the old OS 9/Win 3.1 icon set was better suited for it. RIM did it and the BB was a success. people wanted to check email and BB's did it very well. WinMo devices were more expensive and loaded with mobile MS Office apps.

I think for 7 they are finally going to build it from the ground up. Most MS employees have iphones so it's not like they don't have any inspiration
post #74 of 101
They aren't even good at marketing names! How about thinking about it for even 5 seconds?

It's like Mr. Jarse naming his son Hugh (ref Benny Hill).
post #75 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by al_bundy View Post


I think for 7 they are finally going to build it from the ground up. Most MS employees have iphones so it's not like they don't have any inspiration

The real question is will it be too late? We're talking about at least another year.

Someone here earlier joked about someone using the term "mindshare". It was surprising he hadn't heard of the term, as it's widely used, and it applies here.

What will Win Mobile's mindshare be a year from now, esp. if 6.5 fails to stop the loss of sales?

Will a brand new 7 with modern features, even if well done, matter anymore?

Even the poorly selling Pre and Pixi, however well it sells, will have some credible number of official apps, and a big bunch of more amateur apps. Android will have a good ten thousand. Nokia will fight back with Meamo, and will still have some Symbian models, RIM isn't standing still, and of course, Apple will have introduced a new line of phones, and likely, OS 4.0.

Will MS be able to attract developers for 7? It will be a tough sell. It will likely be even less compatible with 6.5 than 6.5 is with 6.1 and 6.0. At least in its interface, but possibly in lower level programming as well.

How many manufacturers will be continuing to intro new Win Mobile phones this year? Will they want to produce a Win Mobile 7 phone?
post #76 of 101
cell phone contracts run 2 years and most people get a new phone. it's not like PC's where you might keep it for years.

in the last 10 years there has been a new "cool" phone every 2-3 years so mindshare is not that important. new cool phone comes out and people buy it because their cell phone bill is not going to be any less for keeping the old phone
post #77 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Can you point to where MS has said [that the app store will run on 6.1 and 6.0], because I can't find anywhere where they did.

Sure, it's here. Specifically, the below line:

Quote:
In fact, we’re announcing today that by the end of 2009 Windows Marketplace will also be available to Windows Mobile 6.0 and 6.1 devices.
post #78 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by stonefree View Post

the bit about the "one of a kind trophy" was killing me. A bronze bust of Ballmer's head maybe?

I'm just wondering if this "one of a kind trophy" will be given to the 10 or 100 or 1000 or 10000 developers. Hmmm 10,000 developers I wonder how long that'll take em? After this is STILL Microsoft we're talking about and when the 520 lb gorilla talks people still tend to listen. (yea she's been shedding the pounds lately)

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post #79 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by al_bundy View Post

cell phone contracts run 2 years and most people get a new phone. it's not like PC's where you might keep it for years.

in the last 10 years there has been a new "cool" phone every 2-3 years so mindshare is not that important. new cool phone comes out and people buy it because their cell phone bill is not going to be any less for keeping the old phone


You are off by a big margin here. I guess we should give a credit for the "2 years contract and people switch the phone" idea to the Palm marketing team. It did not work for Palm, it won't work for MS. Here's why:
  1. "2 years contract" is US-centric idea. it is 3 in Canada, but the barriers are much lower in most EU countries. Move east from EU and it goes to nothing - most of the phones sold are post-paid. Take China as an example. It is safe to assume that next year Apple will sell more iPhones in China only than Palm worldwide and WinMo in US, or may be more than both combined.
  2. Apple said in plain English, and most players including MS got it, that they are building a platform. Before the iPhone (yes, the mobile phone history is going to be deviled in "Before the iPhone" and "After the iPhone" era) the concept of a phone OS update was alien. There were only firmware fixes. Apart from that, every phone was doomed to live and die with the OS version it was shipped. The [few] developers were moving their attention to the new phones, and they were incompatible with the old ones. People were used to think that to get a new OS you need a new phone, and you will need to scrap your apps anyway. Even under these circumstances, many people preferred to stick to the same brand just because all those hundreds of nested menus were following more or less the same logic within one vendor. iPhone changed that. Forever. Now, when the contract expires, people will want not "a new phone" but "THE new iPhone"
post #80 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quadra 610 View Post

And the iMac.

And 'the Steve' without whom we wouldn't have, iMac, iPods, iPhones oh and OS X.. that too was of paramount importance to the continued success of Apple.

If I had to put things into perspective, the NeXT takeover of Apple..... DID I SAY THAT?? Lets try that again. The Apple acquisition of NeXT coupled with the return of Jobs is the entire reason Apple still exists today.

Without them we'd be sitting next to our Amiga brethren still running years old hardware and OS simply because we can't get over the tragic events that befell our favorite computer.

Phew!

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