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Microsoft sells restrictive new WiMo Marketplace via iPhone ads - Page 3

post #81 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

It's ridiculous!

This will limit the number of apps for sure, but unlike what MS is saying, it won't assure quality.

It will also filter out most of the good ones as well.

Just read that the maximum size for installation files (.cabs) is 10 MB. http://developer.windowsmobile.com/H...e-18167eaf3168

Does that mean that the app itself cannot exceed 10MB? Is that a limitation coming from the telco's?

Philippe
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post #82 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilBoogie View Post

Just read that the maximum size for installation files (.cabs) is 10 MB. http://developer.windowsmobile.com/H...e-18167eaf3168

Does that mean that the app itself cannot exceed 10MB? Is that a limitation coming from the telco's?

Philippe

That's interesting. It doesn't say anything about whether that's a imitation over the cell network, or a limitation of the SDK and Win Mobile.

Apple, and presumably AT&T, only allow 10 MB over 3G, but unlimited size over WiFi and USB computer connections.

If it's a hard app limitation, I would say that's a problem for writing good apps, particularly games and some mapping programs. I have a Peterson Guide which is 93 MB. Will it allow that?
post #83 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quadra 610 View Post

This is gonna be a mess.

"Right now our product roadmaps didn't line up perfectly for us to snap to what they're doing [in the Windows Mobile Marketplace] or vice versa. That being said, we know people want things like this on their devices so we're going to build them ourselves, they're going to be super high-quality, and they're going to be free. Down the road if there's a way we can work with Windows Mobile or another group inside the company that's building an app store and take advantage of that, that's something we'll look into."

In other words:

"We don't know WTF we're doing."

Bing! O!
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post #84 of 101
Zune HD apps are here... complete with pre-roll ads (Ars)

NOW we know why the Zune apps are free!

(pause to breathe)

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post #85 of 101
I stuck this in another thread, but it's perfect here as well:

http://www.osnews.com/story/22178/Ha...t_With_Mobile_
post #86 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

I stuck this in another thread, but it's perfect here as well:

http://www.osnews.com/story/22178/Ha...t_With_Mobile_

It certainly fits!
post #87 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by Psych_guy View Post

I wonder of the same 'softie trolls will come out for this article too. You know, the ones who had less than 5 posts and were probably paid by Microsoft to spew their talking points here?

Interesting question for me - maybe it was mentioned in the article but I have failed to notice in a quick glance - is if this Marketplace will be the only source for WinMo apps and games, like iTunes Apps Store is for iPhone.

Because historically, WinMo was pretty much open to users, and WinMo devices were accessible as mass storage devices so apps and data could be copied to handheld from any file manager and used/executed in handheld no questions asked... much as I remember.

So if MS establishes MarketPlace as a body to control apps quality and filter only good apps, yet still let users to DL and run freeware/shareware/whatever apps from other sources, I'm OK with that.

However if MarketPlace turns to be the only source of software, then it is silly and will kill freeware segment (which, I think, is always good to have) - who would pay $99 to provide free of charge software..?
post #88 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by nikon133 View Post

Interesting question for me - maybe it was mentioned in the article but I have failed to notice in a quick glance - is if this Marketplace will be the only source for WinMo apps and games, like iTunes Apps Store is for iPhone.

Because historically, WinMo was pretty much open to users, and WinMo devices were accessible as mass storage devices so apps and data could be copied to handheld from any file manager and used/executed in handheld no questions asked... much as I remember.

So if MS establishes MarketPlace as a body to control apps quality and filter only good apps, yet still let users to DL and run freeware/shareware/whatever apps from other sources, I'm OK with that.

However if MarketPlace turns to be the only source of software, then it is silly and will kill freeware segment (which, I think, is always good to have) - who would pay $99 to provide free of charge software..?

That's a good question, and I'm not clear on that. I read somewhere, I don't remember where right now, that apps will also be downloadable from the web site, or from a website. Exactly what that means, I don't know.

But there's no SDK right now, so until that's released, it's a moot point.
post #89 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by nikon133 View Post

Interesting question for me - maybe it was mentioned in the article but I have failed to notice in a quick glance - is if this Marketplace will be the only source for WinMo apps and games, like iTunes Apps Store is for iPhone.

Traditional methods of WinMo app delivery will still be allowed. The restrictions only apply to apps on MS's app store.

Microsoft is too scared of losing the enterprise market to restrict developers to their app store.
post #90 of 101
No SDK for what? You can develop 6.x apps right now using an SDK that's been around since '07.

http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/d...displaylang=en

If you have Windows you can go grab C# Express and get started right now, if you want.

Happily, WinMo will still be open to the vast library of freeware that has accumulated over the years, and you can still buy apps through Handango or whatever -- Handango just can't put an "App Store" app in the Marketplace.

As Apple users I expect y'all are perfectly happy with the iPhone and its app store, and that's great.

But as a longtime CE/PPC/WinMo user (dating back to the days of the old handheld pcs), I'm also pretty happy with the state of Windows Mobile these days. Especially now that all the HTC phones ship with a very nice UI and a solid browser. If Marketplace helps bring apps and/or users to the platform, so much the better.

P.S. Although I did register just to comment on this, I hope this won't be considered trolling. I think iPhones are great, I just don't personally want one.
post #91 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichL View Post

Sure, it's here. Specifically, the below line:

That's not what we've been talking about.

We're talking about programs, not music, video's and whatever relates to that.

According to this next quote, it doesn't sound that the programs written for the 6.5 version are necessarily going to work on the older versions, but that Marketplace support will be. It could easily mean that the programs would have to be separate. Otherwise, why will support be so late if they are compatible?

That article doesn't clear up the program question.

Quote:
Windows Mobile 6.0 and 6.1 Support: Windows Marketplace will be available for Windows Mobile 6.0 and 6.1 by the end of 2009 (in addition to Windows Mobile 6.5 at launch in the fall).
post #92 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by wanorris View Post

No SDK for what? You can develop 6.x apps right now using an SDK that's been around since '07.

http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/d...displaylang=en

If you have Windows you can go grab C# Express and get started right now, if you want.

Happily, WinMo will still be open to the vast library of freeware that has accumulated over the years, and you can still buy apps through Handango or whatever -- Handango just can't put an "App Store" app in the Marketplace.

As Apple users I expect y'all are perfectly happy with the iPhone and its app store, and that's great.

But as a longtime CE/PPC/WinMo user (dating back to the days of the old handheld pcs), I'm also pretty happy with the state of Windows Mobile these days. Especially now that all the HTC phones ship with a very nice UI and a solid browser. If Marketplace helps bring apps and/or users to the platform, so much the better.

P.S. Although I did register just to comment on this, I hope this won't be considered trolling. I think iPhones are great, I just don't personally want one.

I'm not so sure you're right. MS itself has said that there will be NO third party programs now for 6.5. None!

When they have the NEW SDK, THEN there will be some development.

This is what THEY said.

I have to assume that they know what is possible on their own platform. It's quite possible that they've done something to enforce this.
post #93 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

I'm not so sure you're right. MS itself has said that there will be NO third party programs now for 6.5. None!

When they have the NEW SDK, THEN there will be some development.

This is what THEY said.

I have to assume that they know what is possible on their own platform. It's quite possible that they've done something to enforce this.

Well, here's the Windows Mobile site for developers: http://developer.windowsmobile.com/ .

There's mention of a Developer Resource Kit that you can order for $9.95, but there are enough other tools for getting started today. If you have the WinMo 6 SDK installed, you can download the 6.5 Developer Toolkit, which gives you emulator images, new libraries for gestures and such, and sample apps that demonstrate features. There are also various testing tools available. That's basically everything you need to start developing a 6.5 app.

I suspect the documentation is in prerelease form, but everyone who develops for a Microsoft platform is used to that until the release rolls around. My guess is that the DRK will simply be a roll-up of the 6 SDK with the new 6.5 tools, complete with full updated documentation, and possibly a change or two that showed up at the last minute.

There's very little that's a secret at Microsoft, especially for tools that affect 3rd party developers and IT departments. Sometimes their plans change, but their best stab at development tools are usually available as soon as they can get them in people's hands.

So for anyone interested in developing for 6.5, by all means, go see for yourself. Of course, if you Apple folks aren't interested, I can certainly understand.

Edited to add: here's a blog entry from the WinMo development team explaining all the different pieces, including the fact that you need to install the DTK on top of the old 6.0 SDK until the 6.5 version is ready.

http://blogs.msdn.com/windowsmobile/...k-drk-wtf.aspx
post #94 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by wanorris View Post

Well, here's the Windows Mobile site for developers: http://developer.windowsmobile.com/ .

There's mention of a Developer Resource Kit that you can order for $9.95, but there are enough other tools for getting started today. If you have the WinMo 6 SDK installed, you can download the 6.5 Developer Toolkit, which gives you emulator images, new libraries for gestures and such, and sample apps that demonstrate features. There are also various testing tools available. That's basically everything you need to start developing a 6.5 app.

I suspect the documentation is in prerelease form, but everyone who develops for a Microsoft platform is used to that until the release rolls around. My guess is that the DRK will simply be a roll-up of the 6 SDK with the new 6.5 tools, complete with full updated documentation, and possibly a change or two that showed up at the last minute.

There's very little that's a secret at Microsoft, especially for tools that affect 3rd party developers and IT departments. Sometimes their plans change, but their best stab at development tools are usually available as soon as they can get them in people's hands.

So for anyone interested in developing for 6.5, by all means, go see for yourself. Of course, if you Apple folks aren't interested, I can certainly understand.

Edited to add: here's a blog entry from the WinMo development team explaining all the different pieces, including the fact that you need to install the DTK on top of the old 6.0 SDK until the 6.5 version is ready.

http://blogs.msdn.com/windowsmobile/...k-drk-wtf.aspx

So MS is telling everyone one thing, but doing another?

Don't you find that to be odd?
post #95 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

So MS is telling everyone one thing, but doing another?

Don't you find that to be odd?

According to Wikipedia, Microsoft has 93,000 employees. Many of them communicate with the public, developers, the press, etc. The guy who was quoted may not have had the correct information, or the information he had may have been out of date. I missed where you pulled the info from, so it's possible he was misunderstood or accidentally quoted out of context. The only thing I'm pretty sure of is that it wasn't done out of malice, because discouraging app development on their own platform hurts Microsoft more than anyone else.

Apple does a brilliant job of keeping everything exactly on message. The price for that is a level of secrecy that the CIA could take notes from. Microsoft lets more people talk, and they communicate most important information well ahead of release, allowing downstream partners to plan ahead. The price for that is that sometimes the message may be garbled along the way.

I don't mean that as a way of saying Microsoft > Apple. Not at all. Just as a way of saying that the cultures are rather different, as you will be unsurprised to learn.

While this would certainly be confusing to any new developers (such as the iPhone developers they apparently hope to recruit), Microsoft developers are pretty well trained to just go to MSDN or wherever and find the tools we (I do enterprise-type apps, not mobile, but same idea) need. We also know how the tools work well enough to be pretty sure that 6.5 apps are not going to be all that different from other 6.x apps (or 5.x, 2003, etc.), and that they're almost certainly not going to suddenly ban all non-approved applications from the device. As far as Microsoft is concerned, it's a tiny, possibly slightly broken, computer, but still a computer. And if you need to run an app on a computer, you build an executable, load it on the device, and launch it. Even the Zune and the XBox have free, accessible developer tools nowadays.
post #96 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by wanorris View Post

According to Wikipedia, Microsoft has 93,000 employees. Many of them communicate with the public, developers, the press, etc. The guy who was quoted may not have had the correct information, or the information he had may have been out of date. I missed where you pulled the info from, so it's possible he was misunderstood or accidentally quoted out of context. The only thing I'm pretty sure of is that it wasn't done out of malice, because discouraging app development on their own platform hurts Microsoft more than anyone else.

Apple does a brilliant job of keeping everything exactly on message. The price for that is a level of secrecy that the CIA could take notes from. Microsoft lets more people talk, and they communicate most important information well ahead of release, allowing downstream partners to plan ahead. The price for that is that sometimes the message may be garbled along the way.

I don't mean that as a way of saying Microsoft > Apple. Not at all. Just as a way of saying that the cultures are rather different, as you will be unsurprised to learn.

While this would certainly be confusing to any new developers (such as the iPhone developers they apparently hope to recruit), Microsoft developers are pretty well trained to just go to MSDN or wherever and find the tools we (I do enterprise-type apps, not mobile, but same idea) need. We also know how the tools work well enough to be pretty sure that 6.5 apps are not going to be all that different from other 6.x apps (or 5.x, 2003, etc.), and that they're almost certainly not going to suddenly ban all non-approved applications from the device. As far as Microsoft is concerned, it's a tiny, possibly slightly broken, computer, but still a computer. And if you need to run an app on a computer, you build an executable, load it on the device, and launch it. Even the Zune and the XBox have free, accessible developer tools nowadays.

These things you are talking about are some of MS's biggest flaws. There is no coherent strategy that they have, and they don't speak with one voice. This has lead, over the years, to a somewhat disembodied situation. When Ballmer speaks, he just confuses the issue more.

As far as the Zune goes, its far more restrictive, not less.
post #97 of 101
As a launch partner with Microsoft's Marketplace AND a launch partner with the iPhone App Store AND a launch partner with RIM's BB App Store - I can tell you that each store has its pluses and minuses.

The MS Marketplace is actually a really good first attempt. It has a ways to go in a lot of ways (mainly in the stale WM SDK that has created so many encumbrances for modern day stuff), but the Marketplace itself isn't bad.

There is a lot on this thread that is just plain wrong and a lot of comments. I'll tell you this that in the long run I prefer the Apple app store overall. Too many different reasons. But Marketplace isn't bad - far better than RIM's App World and only a few marks away from the App Store.
post #98 of 101
One more thing - part of the article is wrong - the part that states that they are restricting the content from being sold on other stores. That's wrong. They are restricting you from linking to other stores - but that's the same with every other distributor we've ever used.

For example your About screen can't have "Go to our store to buy the full version" for a trial. Or you can't have an "upgrader" app. Our app had an upgrader app that let you auto-update to new versions and it also let you know about our other software. Big no no on Marketplace. No big deal as I think Marketplace kills the need for that upgrader anyway.
post #99 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by al_bundy View Post

why would anyone want a used computer?

Because that would be a cheap way of getting into platform development?

You know, like when you said

Quote:
$99 might sound like a lot but Visual Studio will run on any cheapo PC you can find from the last 5 years.

So unless you're saying that you can buy five year old computers at Best Buy, you seem to be granting PC users the opportunity to cut their dev costs by using any old computer, but requiring iPhone developers to purchase a new $1000 Mac.

And why $1000? A Mini can be had for $599 so your buy-in cost is simply wrong, even disregarding your mysterious rules.
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post #100 of 101
hi,
Quote:
Originally Posted by al_bundy View Post

the biggest barrier to writing iphone apps is that you need a Mac. that's at least $1000.

$99 might sound like a lot but Visual Studio will run on any cheapo PC you can find from the last 5 years. you can even get Visual Studio Express for free from MSDN

Then you clearly haven't done any mobile development on a Microsoft based platform. Because you would realise that the express editions provide no support for mobile development.

Currently you require a copy of Visual Studio 2008 Professional edition (or above) in order for the various mobile SDKs to install. Considering this costs around $1000NZD (pricing varies with region) I know many people who have considered the cost of buying a mac as being near enough to the cost of buying an additional license of visual studio. They get to develop for the iPhone, and in the process get a new computer to boot (that could be used for other purposes, such as running windows is so inclined...). That's a pretty good deal if you ask me.

What I say above is true for Windows mobile or Windows CE. The Zune is a little bit different, but then again in it's current state it isn't exactly a viable platform for third party developers unless you're into games etc.

For the record I'm mostly a Microsoft based developer so am hardly an "apple fan boy", but lets atleast try to keep the facts straight when trying to compare the advantages and disadvantages of developing for both platforms.

In summary:

Person with a Mac to develop for Windows Mobile: New PC (or a licensed copy of a Windows OS + VMWare or Parallels) + Visual Studio 2008 Pro license

Person with a PC to develope for iPhone: New Mac + $99 iPhone developer program subscription

Draw your own conclusions with regards to which ends up cheapest in the the end, or gives you best bang for your buck. There's also differences in upgrade costs to compare, such as when Apple releases an new version of Xcode, or Microsoft releases an updated Visual Studio releases (such as VS2010).
post #101 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by JaneDoe View Post

hi,
Then you clearly haven't done any mobile development on a Microsoft based platform. Because you would realise that the express editions provide no support for mobile development.

Currently you require a copy of Visual Studio 2008 Professional edition (or above) in order for the various mobile SDKs to install. Considering this costs around $1000NZD (pricing varies with region) I know many people who have considered the cost of buying a mac as being near enough to the cost of buying an additional license of visual studio. They get to develop for the iPhone, and in the process get a new computer to boot (that could be used for other purposes, such as running windows is so inclined...). That's a pretty good deal if you ask me.

What I say above is true for Windows mobile or Windows CE. The Zune is a little bit different, but then again in it's current state it isn't exactly a viable platform for third party developers unless you're into games etc.

For the record I'm mostly a Microsoft based developer so am hardly an "apple fan boy", but lets atleast try to keep the facts straight when trying to compare the advantages and disadvantages of developing for both platforms.

In summary:

Person with a Mac to develop for Windows Mobile: New PC (or a licensed copy of a Windows OS + VMWare or Parallels) + Visual Studio 2008 Pro license

Person with a PC to develope for iPhone: New Mac + $99 iPhone developer program subscription

Draw your own conclusions with regards to which ends up cheapest in the the end, or gives you best bang for your buck. There's also differences in upgrade costs to compare, such as when Apple releases an new version of Xcode, or Microsoft releases an updated Visual Studio releases (such as VS2010).

Wow, you're absolutely right, and I missed that (as I said, I don't develop for Mobile). Pro goes for $579US on Amazon.

That's incredibly weak -- they should be actively seeking developers for Windows Mobile, not erecting barriers. I like Microsoft's products and development tools most of the time, but I won't defend this.
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