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Review roundup: Zune HD plays catchup to iPod touch - Page 5

post #161 of 232
Quote:
Originally Posted by teckstud View Post

Oh right - and I forgot that Apple in 2009 invented MMS, video recording, and cut, copy, and paste. How stupid of me. When does flash get invented?

*Reinvented*. However when Apple takes a longer time to settle the kinks, it'll turn out nice and polished. Look at cut, copy and paste. Completely special and not the usual WM clunky style.
post #162 of 232
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmf2 View Post

Engadget specifically cites daylight visibility as a weakness of OLED, but they did love the screen otherwise. All I was pointing out was the AI didn't outright lie. The article was clearly biased and exagerated weak points while ignoring or downplaying strong points. iPhone visibility in daylight is also poor, although mine has never seemed as bad as that picture.

The best solution for the iPhone outdoor glare is the non glare screen protector from Power Support. You get 2 in a sleeve for $14.95 from the APple store. They are made in Japan, very high quality, and no bubbles - at all.
post #163 of 232
Quote:
Originally Posted by teckstud View Post

The best solution for the iPhone outdoor glare is the non glare screen protector from Power Support. You get 2 in a sleeve for $14.95 from the APple store. They are made in Japan, very high quality, and no bubbles - at all.

Thanks, I'll keep that in mind. I haven't had major issues though, and I'm in Canada it is dark half the year anyway (not really, but I will be at work during all the daylight hours in the winter).
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post #164 of 232
Sorry for Micrsoft?! Never.
I'm curious about the Zune now that one reviewer wrote it's sleaker than the iPod touch, which I find very hard to believe.
Also another said the screen is crisp and she had no problem watching a TV show. Well the iPod touch screen is bigger. So she should have no problems there as well.
post #165 of 232
Oh and for all who complain about price, an iPod touch is less expensive. Take that bargain hunters. Bigger screen, more apps, and you don't have to pay for a service either.
post #166 of 232
Quote:
Originally Posted by sheff View Post



I looked at HD in order to NOT buy the "new" iPod touch, as I have been pissed off due to lack of camera/ mic and radio. While Zune has the radio, I still decided to buy the iTouch. Enough said.

Placing my brand new ZUNE HD and iPod Touch (3rd Gen) side by side, the thing that is most apparent is that Apple has become far too complacent when it comes to developing the Touch platform.

Sure, I enjoy the occasional 'app' diversion, but for what a media player should, do, e.g provide an engaging/polished audio/video experience, the ZUNE HD simply leaves the new iPod Touch in the dust on every level.

Even the Touch hardware/form-factor seems terribly dated now, with it's rather archaic aspect ratio, washed-out/pixelated LCD, and (suddenly) ungainly/inelegant dimensions, it's clear that Apple really needs to invest less time rejecting app-store entries, and more time redesigning their hardware.

The same goes for iTunes, especially the Windows version, that now seems so utilitarian/boring (because it is), offering little in the way of new music discovery, or a subscription model.

I'll continue to use, and respect the 17 different iPods I've purchased over the years, but compared to my ZUNE HD/32gb, they now represent what was innovative/new, rather than what the future holds.

Looks like it's Apple who needs to worry about 'catching up' - IMO
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post #167 of 232
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rokken View Post

You can't play/stop a song, change volume, switch to next/previous song etc. without pulling the device out and actually select it on screen with Zune. This is the real show-stopper for many I think.

Actually... Very Untrue

The OLED display registers up/down gestures across the entire surface as volume up/down, and left/right as track forward/backward.

It's extremely intuitive and accurate, and one need not look at the display - maybe you should try it sometime?
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post #168 of 232
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaHarder View Post

Even the Touch hardware/form-factor seems terribly dated now, with it's rather archaic aspect ratio,

Wait, what archaic aspect ratio?
post #169 of 232
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaHarder View Post

the ZUNE HD simply leaves the new iPod Touch in the dust on every level.

Great! You prefer the Zune over the iPod.

Any particular reason that you need to broadcast the fact in dozens of blog comments and forums around the web?

Or is that your job?
post #170 of 232
Quote:
Originally Posted by aiviaphoto View Post

ZuneHD is more of a digression than a progression...

It's more expensive and it still lacks the craftsmanship of ipod touch.

Sorry MS it should be back to the drawing board again.

You've obviously never experienced the ZUNE HD, let alone actually seen one.

The ZUNE HD design/build quality is impeccable, with tolerances that effectively make the iPod Touch look extremely dated by comparison.

Apple products have served me well over the years, but whereas my new Touch is well-built in the way Sieko watches are, my ZUNE HD is (indeed) well-crafted in the sense of my Breitling Chronomat, and there is a huge difference.
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post #171 of 232
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

Wait, what archaic aspect ratio?

Obviously you've failed to notice that 16:9 is the most popular aspect ration of TV/movies these days.

The ZUNE HD has it, and movies/videos looks fantastic when devoid of distracting black bars across the bottom/top.

You should really try 16:9, all the cool people have ;-)
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post #172 of 232
Quote:
Originally Posted by piot View Post

Great! You prefer the Zune over the iPod.

Any particular reason that you need to broadcast the fact in dozens of blog comments and forums around the web?

Or is that your job?

Over-Exaggerate... Much?

I guess one could counter by asking if it's your 'job' to go around stalking people on the internet?

No need to answer... the answer it quite obvious
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post #173 of 232
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaHarder View Post

Obviously you've failed to notice that 16:9 is the most popular aspect ration of TV/movies these days.

The ZUNE HD has it, and movies/videos looks fantastic when devoid of distracting black bars across the bottom/top.

You should really try 16:9, all the cool people have ;-)

I'm curious if you knew what the actual aspect ratio if the Touch was, because it's not the old Academy ratio that people seem to imply.

I personally don't watch video for very long periods of time on a tiny screen anyway.

Aspect ratios aren't a one off thing, most movies aren't 16:9, most are at least a little wider, some a lot wider, especially if it's Cinemascope aspect ratio. You're either going to get black bars or crop some of the image.
post #174 of 232
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThisIsMike View Post

I'm hoping someone will respond to this question, even someone from the site. I've counted on this site for years now for all the most up-to-date Apple news, and it's pretty much never failed me. In fact, the addition of the price matrix helped me to purchase my latest laptop at an insane price, so I'm indebted there as well. And while it's true that AI has a tendency to be biased towards Apple, sometimes even unreasonably or overly so, I just sort of keep that in mind whenever I read things on here. I do think there are times when it goes too far, but, as others point out, this is APPLE insider, so I guess they're entitled. (Although it should also be pointed out, I'm a *huge* Apple fanboy, and even I find it annoying after a while. It seems to have increased noticeably over the last year or two.)

But the article a few days back about the Zune's OLED screen is really bothering me. It's the first time I'd read anything like that about OLED, a technology which I was actually really excited about, and have been hoping will make it's way into Apple's products eventually. What bothers me is that it seems to be an outright fabrication; a lie, plain and simple. And that's something I've NEVER seen from this site. I could be wrong, but I haven't seen anything in any other reviews about the screen being problematic in outdoor or bright lighting, and if the situation is as bad as was depicted in that article, you would assume it would have come up SOMEWHERE.

Maybe I missed it? But if not, what was up with that article, because it seems to have been very deliberately misleading to the point of utter falsification. I'm very curious as to any opinions on this, because if that's what has happened, it represents a new low. Biased is one thing, but if I can't rely on the site to tell the truth (even if god forbid, they must admit to a halfway decent product from a competitor), that's another thing altogether.

And before I get attacked for this, please understand that I'm just posing a question here.

'Lying' is such an ugly word, as it does imply malicious intent to deceive, but...

What Prince said, is what he said, and it was way beyond merely being 'misguided' - IMO
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post #175 of 232
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaHarder View Post

Placing my brand new ZUNE HD and iPod Touch (3rd Gen) side by side, the thing that is most apparent is that Apple has become far too complacent when it comes to developing the Touch platform.

Do tell. And by "platform" I'm guessing you mean "A robust OS, deep bench of apps, several products that share that OS and those apps, and lots of third party accessories."

You're right, MS really has Apple nailed to the wall here.

Quote:
Sure, I enjoy the occasional 'app' diversion, but for what a media player should, do, e.g provide an engaging/polished audio/video experience, the ZUNE HD simply leaves the new iPod Touch in the dust on every level.

I'm just going to have to assume that MS doesn't pay their shill evangelists much, or they could get people who could be more clever about concealing their agenda. Pro tip: stop bolding product names, and refrain from redefining the competition's products in terms that flatter your employers. The Touch is not "a media player." That's what the Zune is. The fact that the Zune offers a tiny subset of the Touch's functionality is not an asset.

Quote:
Even the Touch hardware/form-factor seems terribly dated now, with it's rather archaic aspect ratio, washed-out/pixelated LCD, and (suddenly) ungainly/inelegant dimensions, it's clear that Apple really needs to invest less time rejecting app-store entries, and more time redesigning their hardware.

Again, you're overplaying your hand. "Ungainly/inelegant dimensions" sounds like they sent you a list of talking points and you misunderstood them. No sentient human outside of Redmond sees this as telling flaw of the Touch. Of course, MS has the app store rejection distraction problem licked, don't they? Just don't have apps, problem solved.

Quote:
The same goes for iTunes, especially the Windows version, that now seems so utilitarian/boring (because it is), offering little in the way of new music discovery, or a subscription model.

Yes. iTunes is rendered utilitarian and boring because, wait for it..... it doesn't have the two features MS is flogging! Well done!

Quote:
I'll continue to use, and respect the 17 different iPods I've purchased over the years, but compared to my ZUNE HD/32gb, they now represent what was innovative/new, rather than what the future holds.

And the obligatory closing flourish of "I speak truth because I've bought a shitload of Apple hardware" It's the "Dear Penthouse, I never thought this would happen to me" of MS shill posts.

Quote:
Looks like it's Apple who needs to worry about 'catching up' - IMO

Or, more specifically, in the opinion of the MS PR people, who are obviously going to go all in on the idea that the Zune is the new cool and the Touch and iTunes are old school and busted.

However, they still have to go out there and sell a PMP as being the future, while everyone else has figured out that having a computer in your pocket is actually something people kinda dig. All the relentless chanting of "I only care about music, all of a sudden, for some reason" can't change that.
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post #176 of 232
Quote:
Originally Posted by kotatsu View Post

I believe I smell fear from Camp Apple Insider.

The fact is the Zune HD has real geek buzz around it and has been getting rave reviews. Such things do not sit well with blinkered Apple fanboys.

Absolutely! It's little more than the panicked ramblings of the fearful - IMO

Many if the negative sentiments expressed in this forum is enough to make one ashamed to own any Apple product.
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post #177 of 232
Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox View Post

Do tell. And by "platform" I'm guessing you mean "A robust OS, deep bench of apps, several products that share that OS and those apps, and lots of third party accessories."

You're right, MS really has Apple nailed to the wall here.



I'm just going to have to assume that MS doesn't pay their shill evangelists much, or they could get people who could be more clever about concealing their agenda. Pro tip: stop bolding product names, and refrain from redefining the competition's products in terms that flatter your employers. The Touch is not "a media player." That's what the Zune is. The fact that the Zune offers a tiny subset of the Touch's functionality is not an asset.



Again, you're overplaying your hand. "Ungainly/inelegant dimensions" sounds like they sent you a list of talking points and you misunderstood them. No sentient human outside of Redmond sees this as telling flaw of the Touch. Of course, MS has the app store rejection distraction problem licked, don't they? Just don't have apps, problem solved.



Yes. iTunes is rendered utilitarian and boring because, wait for it..... it doesn't have the two features MS is flogging! Well done!



And the obligatory closing flourish of "I speak truth because I've bought a shitload of Apple hardware" It's the "Dear Penthouse, I never thought this would happen to me" of MS shill posts.



Or, more specifically, in the opinion of the MS PR people, who are obviously going to go all in on the idea that the Zune is the new cool and the Touch and iTunes are old school and busted.

However, they still have to go out there and sell a PMP as being the future, while everyone else has figured out that having a computer in your pocket is actually something people kinda dig. All the relentless chanting of "I only care about music, all of a sudden, for some reason" can't change that.

Suggestion:

Take off your Apple-Clouded blinders and actually purchase a ZUNE HD, and get back to me with a credible rebuttal, until then - NEXT!
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post #178 of 232
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmf2 View Post

Engadget specifically cites daylight visibility as a weakness of OLED, but they did love the screen otherwise. All I was pointing out was the AI didn't outright lie. The article was clearly biased and exagerated weak points while ignoring or downplaying strong points. iPhone visibility in daylight is also poor, although mine has never seemed as bad as that picture.

There's a good reason why yours, "has never seemed as bad as that (Engadget) picture"...

It's because you probably have the common sense not to have the display brightness set at its lowest setting, as Josh apparently did -
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post #179 of 232
Quote:
Originally Posted by auxlepli View Post

Oh and for all who complain about price, an iPod touch is less expensive. Take that bargain hunters. Bigger screen, more apps, and you don't have to pay for a service either.

Really?

Though I do agree that my iPod Touch is indeed cheaper, as in of lesser build-quality etc., it's hardly less expensive.

Entry Level: Ipod Touch 8gb = 199.00 US, ZUNE HD 16gb = 219.99 US

Note: 8gb on a purported multi-media device is laughable in this market.

32gb: iPod Touch 32gb = 299.99 US, ZUNE HD 32gb = 289.99 US

Additionally: One need not pay for any service plan to use their ZUNE HD, but the advantages of doing so are well worth the effort for those who truly enjoy music e.g. 10 DRM-free music downloads to keep forever, full access to all other music in the ZUNE Marketplace, Social interaction that envolves the sharing of songs with other ZUNE users free of additional cost, and on... and on...

Lesson: You might want to check your facts on this one... \
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post #180 of 232
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaHarder View Post

Suggestion:

Take off your Apple-Clouded blinders and actually purchase a ZUNE HD, and get back to me with a credible rebuttal, until then - NEXT!

And I'll discover the Zune is a small computer with vast array of apps and I'll be suitable educated?

I have no use for a product that merely plays music and videos and when I can do that and a great deal more with a single device. Others may feel differently, but the future clearly belongs to integration.

I know, you're not allowed to admit that.
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post #181 of 232
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaHarder View Post

Really?

Though I do agree that my iPod Touch is indeed cheaper, as in of lesser build-quality etc., it's hardly less expensive.

Entry Level: Ipod Touch 8gb = 199.00 US, ZUNE HD 16gb = 219.99 US

Note: 8gb on a purported multi-media device is laughable in this market.

32gb: iPod Touch 32gb = 299.99 US, ZUNE HD 32gb = 289.99 US

Additionally: One need not pay for any service plan to use their ZUNE HD, but the advantages of doing so are well worth the effort for those who truly enjoy music e.g. 10 DRM-free music downloads to keep forever, full access to all other music in the ZUNE Marketplace, Social interaction that envolves the sharing of songs with other ZUNE users free of additional cost, and on... and on...

Lesson: You might want to check your facts on this one... \

Now you're just reposting MS handouts. You must try harder.
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post #182 of 232
Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox View Post

And I'll discover the Zune is a small computer with vast array of apps and I'll be suitable educated?

I have no use for a product that merely plays music and videos and when I can do that and a great deal more with a single device. Others may feel differently, but the future clearly belongs to integration.

I know, you're not allowed to admit that.

I agree wholeheartedly...

The sole issue I have concerning your 'argument' is that you fail to recall that the Touch didn't always have an apps store, so I'm puzzled as to why you're so quick to assume that a more powerful/capable platform (ZUNE HD) won't have even higher-quality/more useful apps.

The iPod Touch has largely been unrivaled in the PMP-come-computer area for a couple of years now, but the truth is - This Is No Longer The Case, and it bodes well for the entire industry.
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post #183 of 232
Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox View Post

Now you're just reposting MS handouts. You must try harder.

You're quite the unreasonable one, aren't you?

Hint: The prices simply are what they are - DUH!

The rest are my words, based on my experiences with both the ZUNE Marketplace (sadly something you appear to know nothing about) and iTunes.
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post #184 of 232
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaHarder View Post

Over-Exaggerate... Much?

No. A search for "DaHarder Zune" turns up hundreds of hits... scattered over dozens of different sites. A couple of results bring up comments of yours from two or three years ago praising previous Zune versions.

You have every right to your opinions, I just have a morbid curiosity about the motivation that drives people like you to feel the need to evangelise in such a fashion.


Quote:
I guess one could counter by asking if it's your 'job' to go around stalking people on the internet?

Yes, one could. However this is an internet forum, I have been a member for a long time and i have every right to report spam and call out trolls and astroturfers (self assigned or not).

ON TOPIC. I actually agree that the new Zune HD is a strong device and, in the short turn, it really doesn't matter whether it is better than the iPod Touch or not. The most important thing is that it is better than the previous Zunes.

I am certain that you will be busy propagating the 'good news' when the first NPD figures are published. Zune will probably also have a good holiday quarter. However Microsoft is a little late to this game. The move of portable music and media to the cell phone started a long time ago. Way before even the iPhone appeared. The days of growth in the PMP market are over. Microsoft knows this and their future plans for Zune appear to be targeted more towards software and services over the 'three screens'.

Obviously as an evangelist you are going to accentuate the positive but even the plus features have major drawbacks.

Subscription music. In itself that's a good thing. However these services have really not been as successful as the music industry would like. And the reason is really simple. It doesn't matter how many millions of tracks you have access to. It doesn't matter how much time and energy you want to devote to new music discovery. The fact is that most people do not spend $180 a year on music. Check out Nielsen's stats. The average US music buyer spends closer to $40. Subscription services seem to be popular with people who would be spending at least $15 a month anyway. The record companies need people to spend MORE money, than previously, on music. That doesn't appear to have happened yet.

16:9 screen. Yes, great for movies. Not great for the web or for typing or indeed ANY other application that might eventually appear on the Zune.

Apparently the iPod touch is now "ungainly and inelegant" What you really mean is that the Zune is simply... smaller. With video apparently being one of it's strong points a smaller screen with less pixels is not always better. It's amusing that when the original brown Zune was launched, it's fans touted the slightly larger screen as better than the classic iPod's screen. Now apparently "smaller is better." That must explain the rush to buy smaller TV sets!

Lack of applications. In your world that's a good thing. Don't let distracting applications get in the way of what a PMP "should do". Meanwhile, in the real world, Apple is pushing their App store (and particularly games) as the main reason to buy a Touch. Meanwhile, in the real world, 160+ million PMPs are sold that include access to thousands of applications and also happen to be phones as well.

Microsoft's strategy in the portable music space has always been behind the curve. Originally it was purely based on selling their proprietary media codec and their DRM. DRM on music has gone, and now MP3 and AAC rule the roost. The original Zunes did nothing to upset the balance of power in this space, and despite offering a larger range and better machines the 2nd generation Zunes did equally poorly. The Zune HD is a great leap forward but, after three years, it's not the game changer than you think it is. The goal posts have moved!

If you were simply a Zune fan or even an anythingisbetterthaniPod advocate then I would probably think you were sincere. However your propensity to distort facts, the colourful language and your need to 'spread the word of Zune leads me to suspect that you have an agenda. If that's what floats your boat then... good for you. Just don't expect anyone on an Apple forum to take you seriously.
post #185 of 232
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaHarder View Post

I agree wholeheartedly...

The sole issue I have concerning your 'argument' is that you fail to recall that the Touch didn't always have an apps store, so I'm puzzled as to why you're so quick to assume that a more powerful/capable platform (ZUNE HD) won't have even higher-quality/more useful apps.

The iPod Touch has largely been unrivaled in the PMP-come-computer area for a couple of years now, but the truth is - This Is No Longer The Case, and it bodes well for the entire industry.

A more "capable" platform shouldn't take 10 seconds to launch a calculator app or have fewer apps available than any iPhone OS device has ever shipped with. They are using a SoC design that has been promoted heavily and has a fancy name, but we haven't really seen its real world performance yet. It might have an edge in video, but its processing strength leaves much to be desired. All I'm hoping for from the Zune is for it to encourage Apple to give the latest iPhone and iPod Touch a 720p dock. They are both fully capable of outputting 720p video like the Zune. The Zunes OS isn't designed with apps in mind at all. Imagine trying to find 1 app out of 100 in the current setup (only 3-4 apps visible at once), I really don't think their goal is to become a mobile computing platform.
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post #186 of 232
Um, I just picked up the zune HD at bestBuy and the iPod touch is far suerior. End of story.
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post #187 of 232
Quote:
Originally Posted by piot View Post

No. A search for "DaHarder Zune" turns up hundreds of hits... scattered over dozens of different sites. A couple of results bring up comments of yours from two or three years ago praising previous Zune versions.

Well, if you actually read more of my post/reviews/etc, you'd also have noticed that I currently own well over 300 DAP/PMP units, including every generation of ever model of iPod ever produced... or did you miss that part?

Simply put, the OP's initial post is full of fallacies and misleading (lack of) information, and whether I enjoy using my multitude of Apple products or not (I do by the way), too many in here have used this 'article' to further untruths regarding the product in question.

So, find another 'target', because if nothing else, I'm as fair and balanced as they come...

Additionally - To all of you, especially the OP, I pose the following:

If this is such an Apple-centric forum, then why even post an article about the ZUNE HD?
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post #188 of 232
Quote:
Originally Posted by mclarenf1 View Post

Um, I just picked up the zune HD at bestBuy and the iPod touch is far suerior. End of story.

I agree...

As long as one is not concerned with excellent-quality core media player functions of audio/video/radio reproduction.

If what one desires is a Jack of All Trades/Master On None type device then the iPod Touch is the better choice (at this point).
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post #189 of 232
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaHarder View Post

Well, if you actually read more of my post/reviews/etc, you'd also have noticed that I currently own well over 300 DAP/PMP units, including every generation of ever model of iPod ever produced... or did you miss that part?

Simply put, the OP's initial post is full of fallacies and misleading (lack of) information, and whether I enjoy using my multitude of Apple products or not (I do by the way), too many in here have used this 'article' to further untruths regarding the product in question.

So, find another 'target', because if nothing else, I'm as fair and balanced as they come...

Additionally - To all of you, especially the OP, I pose the following:

If this is such an Apple-centric forum, then why even post an article about the ZUNE HD?

Why would anyone need and/or want to own over 300 DAP/PMp units?
post #190 of 232
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post #191 of 232
Quote:
Originally Posted by MassMacMini View Post

Why would anyone need and/or want to own over 300 DAP/PMp units?

Given both the wherewithal and resources one does what/as one pleases... ;-)
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post #192 of 232
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaHarder View Post

Well, if you actually read more of my post/reviews/etc, you'd also have noticed that I currently own well over 300 DAP/PMP units, including every generation of ever model of iPod ever produced... or did you miss that part?

A Google search of "Daharder Zune" returns over 3000 results. I am curious about you... but not that curious.

Buying one portable media player a week for a number of years may be a symptom of some kind of compulsive disorder. This, combined with your need to bring your Zune message to a larger flock is beginning to make me worry about the state of your health. Seriously, have you talked to anyone about this?


Quote:
too many in here have used this 'article' to further untruths regarding the product in question.

Yes, but sadly that's the internet for you. Countering one set of bias with another bias doesn't really get us anywhere does it?

Quote:
So, find another 'target', because if nothing else, I'm as fair and balanced as they come...

In light of your recent revelations about your shopping habits, I think "balanced" may be a particularly poor choice of word.

Quote:
Additionally - To all of you, especially the OP, I pose the following:
If this is such an Apple-centric forum, then why even post an article about the ZUNE HD?

Your question is naive in the extreme. Nearly every single article or blog post about the Zune, mentions the iPod Touch in the same breath. in the words of the bard... "It's the competition... stupid!"
post #193 of 232
Quote:
Originally Posted by piot View Post

A Google search of "Daharder Zune" returns over 3000 results. I am curious about you... but not that curious.

In light of your recent revelations about your shopping habits, I think "balanced" may be a particularly poor choice of word.

Judgmental... Much?

I guess in your quest to 'lash out' at any and all who offer perspectives incongruent with your own, you failed to reason that I might well be the associate editor/administrator of a gadget blog -

One that welcomes all products... from all manufacturers, including Apple.

Personally, as a longtime Apple product user, I find the attitudes expressed in this forum extremely disheartening, as they only serve to exacerbate the widely-held premise that Apple people are all manner of elitist expletives.
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post #194 of 232
Hey guys, I was just surfing the net and I ended up making my way over here. I have been reading and skimming over the discussion in this thread, and there are some misconceptions about the Zune HD. First, I would like to say that I currently own a Zune HD and an iPhone. I have used the iPhone for music, but for the most part I used my Zune 80 for music (which I absolutely loved, by the way, better than both of my iPods, my Toshiba Gigabeat, and my Dell Jukebox) since the music playing function on the iPhone is terrible; almost an afterthought. I didn't use an iPod classic or anything like that because I found that the way the "squircle" control interacted with the UI was much more intuitive than the click wheel on the iPod. Sorry if you disagree, but this is my opinion. It ended up lasting longer than any other mp3 player I owned. The Zune software is vastly superior to iTunes. Seriously, even fanoys cannot deny this. iTunes is bloated, slow, and heavy. It was designed to simply play music, and now it does way more than that without any type of re-write. Anyone familiar with software engineering, this is a result of both feature creep and a lack of modifiability. Install the Zune software if you own a PC (don't think many of you have one ), and import your music. Then just give it a chance and listen to music on it for a few days. You will find it faster. A lot faster. And Smart DJ absolutely kills Genius. I am not saying that you will fall in love with the UI since some people prefer the file manager way of organizing things like iTunes (I used to be one), but there is no denying how much faster the Zune software is.

As for the Zune HD, comparing it to the iPod touch and iPhone, the ipod touch and iPhone are PDAs that can play media. The Zune HD is a PMP that can run apps. How anyone thinks Microsoft is following Apple in any way (whether that is playing catch-up or sauntering casually behind) is beyond me. Just turn the devices on, look at the home page of each device and tell me what the focus is. Apple has pretty much said that their device is a portable computer and Microsoft is saying that theirs is a PMP. Why the hell do you care? And it's interesting that Apple didn't put Tegra into the iPod Touch/iPhone since it is faster than the current GPU they are using.
post #195 of 232
Quote:
Originally Posted by mkeath View Post

Hey guys, I was just surfing the net and I ended up making my way over here. I have been reading and skimming over the discussion in this thread, and there are some misconceptions about the Zune HD. First, I would like to say that I currently own a Zune HD and an iPhone. I have used the iPhone for music, but for the most part I used my Zune 80 for music (which I absolutely loved, by the way, better than both of my iPods, my Toshiba Gigabeat, and my Dell Jukebox) since the music playing function on the iPhone is terrible; almost an afterthought. I didn't use an iPod classic or anything like that because I found that the way the "squircle" control interacted with the UI was much more intuitive than the click wheel on the iPod. Sorry if you disagree, but this is my opinion. It ended up lasting longer than any other mp3 player I owned. The Zune software is vastly superior to iTunes. Seriously, even fanoys cannot deny this. iTunes is bloated, slow, and heavy. It was designed to simply play music, and now it does way more than that without any type of re-write. Anyone familiar with software engineering, this is a result of both feature creep and a lack of modifiability. Install the Zune software if you own a PC (don't think many of you have one ), and import your music. Then just give it a chance and listen to music on it for a few days. You will find it faster. A lot faster. And Smart DJ absolutely kills Genius. I am not saying that you will fall in love with the UI since some people prefer the file manager way of organizing things like iTunes (I used to be one), but there is no denying how much faster the Zune software is.

As for the Zune HD, comparing it to the iPod touch and iPhone, the ipod touch and iPhone are PDAs that can play media. The Zune HD is a PMP that can run apps. How anyone thinks Microsoft is following Apple in any way (whether that is playing catch-up or sauntering casually behind) is beyond me. Just turn the devices on, look at the home page of each device and tell me what the focus is. Apple has pretty much said that their device is a portable computer and Microsoft is saying that theirs is a PMP. Why the hell do you care? And it's interesting that Apple didn't put Tegra into the iPod Touch/iPhone since it is faster than the current GPU they are using.

A first post that isn't half bad. Computely agree on the Zune having a different target audience than the touch. I might try the Zune Software on my PC, although I like the iTunes ecosystem. The Tegra GPU may be faster, but its CPU is slower, and the iPod Touch GPU is no slouch either (it can do 720p if Apple lets it), so Tegra isn't all win, it is just heavily advertised.

Microsoft confuses me with their two office suites (Works and Office), two media player software (Windows Media Player, Zune), and three mobile platforms (Zune, Windows Mobile 6.5, Windows Mobile 7). I think Microsoft really sold themselves short on giving the Zune such a PMP heavy focus, it could have been a great mobile platform in addition to a great PMP (so I hear, never had a zune), but it would take interaction between different groups in Microsoft and it seems like those within Microsoft would rather recreate something another group developed instead of working together with that group. The PMP market is shrinking, mobile computing is expanding.
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post #196 of 232
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Originally Posted by cmf2 View Post

A first post that isn't half bad. Computely agree on the Zune having a different target audience than the touch. I might try the Zune Software on my PC, although I like the iTunes ecosystem. The Tegra GPU may be faster, but its CPU is slower, and the iPod Touch GPU is no slouch either (it can do 720p if Apple lets it), so Tegra isn't all win, it is just heavily advertised.

Are you talking about the one in the new iPhone/iPod Touch? I have the iPhone 3G, and the GPU and CPU in that will constantly get hung up on the most menial UI tasks. Using simple things such as touching a button, and expecting there to be some sort of immediate visual feedback turns into 1-5 second delays. I don't have this problem with the Zune HD. Then again, I don't have thee capability of more, but updated iPhone/iPod Touch, so this could very well be fixed.

Quote:
Microsoft confuses me with their two office suites (Works and Office), two media player software (Windows Media Player, Zune), and three mobile platforms (Zune, Windows Mobile 6.5, Windows Mobile 7). I think Microsoft really sold themselves short on giving the Zune such a PMP heavy focus, it could have been a great mobile platform in addition to a great PMP (so I hear, never had a zune), but it would take interaction between different groups in Microsoft and it seems like those within Microsoft would rather recreate something another group developed instead of working together with that group. The PMP market is shrinking, mobile computing is expanding.

Well for the office suites, Works is the cheap one that nobody uses, while Office is very robust and advanced. For mobile platforms, Zune is a PMP first and foremost. Yes it has the capability of more, but so does any computing device that is designated a specific task. That said, Microsoft developed the Zune HD software off of Windows CE, the same OS they are developing Windows Mobile 7. Microsoft has said that the development of the Zune HD is also a learning experience for stuff they are including in Windows Mobile 7. If you are familiar with Project Pink, it is Microsoft's push for a standardization of hadware across all Windows Mobile 7 devices. The rumored specifications include Tegra, a similar CPU spec, and capacitive touchscreen OLED display. Given Microsoft entering the beginning stages of making Zune their music label (I predict they will phase out WMP in the next edition of Windows and Zune will be the bundled software), and the fact that they are integrating it with Xbox and Windows Home Server, it would not surprise me to see Zune and Windows Mobile 7 become very closely tied to each other. My prediction is that Microsoft will open up the SDK for Zune and Windows Mobile 7, which will be one in the same, and all apps on Windows Mobile 7 can be played on Zune HD and vice versa. This will eliminate their need to create a PDA-type device since Windows Mobile 7 will be distributed through all carriers. Apple was pretty much forced to release the iPod Touch (from a business perspective) when they saw that the people on other carriers that couldn't switch over would still pay for something like the iPhone without the phone. Microsoft won't do this because Windows Mobile 7 integrates with Enterprise and other business applications. By the way things look, people actually know about the Zune HD. Nobody knew about the Zune. If Microsoft markets the Zune HD, Windows Mobile 7, and Windows/Xbox integration well then Apple has a serious problem on their hands.

As for Windows Mobile 6.5, I look at it as an update to 6. And Windows Mobile 7 is the next version.
post #197 of 232
This must be about the fourth time I've post this, but it keeps coming up:

Quote:
Q: Will it open up for third-party app developers?

A: It's hard to say right now. If you look around the company at other places where things like this are important, Windows Mobile rises to the top. They have devices which are always connected, which make applications like maps really cool and important.

On a sometimes-connected device, what people are using them for are games. So what we didn't want to do was build two parallel app store experiences that didn't work together.

Right now our product roadmaps didn't line up perfectly for us to snap to what they're doing or vice versa. That being said, we know people want things like this on their devices so we're going to build them ourselves, they're going to be super high-quality, and they're going to be free.

Down the road if there's a way we can work with Windows Mobile or another group inside the company that's building an app store and take advantage of that, that's something we'll look into.

I know it's tempting to think MS has a plan here, but it sure doesn't sound like it.

And I strongly disagree that there's some magic way to merge what's happening on the Zune HD with a full featured palmtop computer of the sort that I would have to assume MS intends with WinMo 7, assuming they intend to remain in any way competitive.

It would be like expecting MS to have "learned" from the Xbox in making Win7, and that they will presently merge the two and everybody's Xboxes will abruptly become full on computers. Because, you know, the hardware is totally underutilized and capable of so much more.

The entire Zune interface is designed to move around lists of media in as entertaining manner as possible. That is not the basis for general purpose computing device OS.

At most, WinMo 7 might borrow some typographic ideas and a few graphic conventions from the HD. Just because hardware "can" do something has no bearing on MIcrosoft's Byzantine product development scheme.
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post #198 of 232
Quote:
Originally Posted by mkeath View Post

Are you talking about the one in the new iPhone/iPod Touch? I have the iPhone 3G, and the GPU and CPU in that will constantly get hung up on the most menial UI tasks. Using simple things such as touching a button, and expecting there to be some sort of immediate visual feedback turns into 1-5 second delays. I don't have this problem with the Zune HD. Then again, I don't have thee capability of more, but updated iPhone/iPod Touch, so this could very well be fixed.

Yes I'm talking about the new ones. They have been shown to be able to play some 1080p video, although it was far from perfect. 720p on the other hand should be very doable. Apple talked a lot about the performance gains of these new models and tests have shown them to be true.


Quote:
Well for the office suites, Works is the cheap one that nobody uses, while Office is very robust and advanced. For mobile platforms, Zune is a PMP first and foremost. Yes it has the capability of more, but so does any computing device that is designated a specific task. That said, Microsoft developed the Zune HD software off of Windows CE, the same OS they are developing Windows Mobile 7. Microsoft has said that the development of the Zune HD is also a learning experience for stuff they are including in Windows Mobile 7. If you are familiar with Project Pink, it is Microsoft's push for a standardization of hadware across all Windows Mobile 7 devices. The rumored specifications include Tegra, a similar CPU spec, and capacitive touchscreen OLED display. Given Microsoft entering the beginning stages of making Zune their music label (I predict they will phase out WMP in the next edition of Windows and Zune will be the bundled software), and the fact that they are integrating it with Xbox and Windows Home Server, it would not surprise me to see Zune and Windows Mobile 7 become very closely tied to each other. My prediction is that Microsoft will open up the SDK for Zune and Windows Mobile 7, which will be one in the same, and all apps on Windows Mobile 7 can be played on Zune HD and vice versa. This will eliminate their need to create a PDA-type device since Windows Mobile 7 will be distributed through all carriers. Apple was pretty much forced to release the iPod Touch (from a business perspective) when they saw that the people on other carriers that couldn't switch over would still pay for something like the iPhone without the phone. Microsoft won't do this because Windows Mobile 7 integrates with Enterprise and other business applications. By the way things look, people actually know about the Zune HD. Nobody knew about the Zune. If Microsoft markets the Zune HD, Windows Mobile 7, and Windows/Xbox integration well then Apple has a serious problem on their hands.

Thanks for the information, but it looks like Microsoft is at least a couple years away from the level of device convergence Apple has now. What will Apple do in that same timeframe?

Quote:
As for Windows Mobile 6.5, I look at it as an update to 6. And Windows Mobile 7 is the next version.

Microsoft has stated that they are going to push forward with two mobile operating systems 6.5 for the low end stuff and 7.0 for the high end stuff. Otherwise why announce the successor before the predeccesor is released?
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post #199 of 232
Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox View Post

This must be about the fourth time I've post this, but it keeps coming up:



I know it's tempting to think MS has a plan here, but it sure doesn't sound like it.

And I strongly disagree that there's some magic way to merge what's happening on the Zune HD with a full featured palmtop computer of the sort that I would have to assume MS intends with WinMo 7, assuming they intend to remain in any way competitive.

It would be like expecting MS to have "learned" from the Xbox in making Win7, and that they will presently merge the two and everybody's Xboxes will abruptly become full on computers. Because, you know, the hardware is totally underutilized and capable of so much more.

The entire Zune interface is designed to move around lists of media in as entertaining manner as possible. That is not the basis for general purpose computing device OS.

At most, WinMo 7 might borrow some typographic ideas and a few graphic conventions from the HD. Just because hardware "can" do something has no bearing on MIcrosoft's Byzantine product development scheme.

Yes, he said it's not something they are going to do now, but he is talking about a compatibility with something that is a phone and something that isn't a phone. They are both based off of the same kernel and they are both going to use the same architectures. That means that, right now, apps may not be compatible with each due to libraries not being the same for each device, but that doesn't rule out the possibility for them to put the libraries on the Zune HD and vice versa for Windows Mobile. Notice that he didn't rule it out. This is typically what Microsoft does before they actually officially announce something, which means it is in the works. It is obviously not a top priority right now, but it would be foolish to say that they weren't working on it at all. It is very doable to have Windows Mobile and Zune HD apps compatible with each other.

Also I am not claiming that the UI for WinMo 7 will look the same or even similar to the Zune HD. That said, you would have to be blind if you think that they aren't going to integrate these devices more than just adding a music player to WinMo 7.
post #200 of 232
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmf2 View Post

Thanks for the information, but it looks like Microsoft is at least a couple years away from the level of device convergence Apple has now. What will Apple do in that same timeframe?

Well Microsoft is branding everything media as Zune. This means WMP will be replaced with the Zune software, the video marketplace on the Xbox 360 is going to be Zune, Windows Media Center will be Zune, media capabilities of Windows Mobile devices will be Zune...and Microsoft is opening this up to hardware manufacturers who are embracing this. Apple TV is kind of like Windows Media Center, but if Media Center Extenders are pushed by Microsoft and TV tuners get easier to use and people discover that they can have a free DVR, Apply could be on their way out the door. And all of this software is good. It's really good. Do not pretend that it isn't. Despite popular belief, Microsoft is very committed to quality software. It doesn't always happen because they don't always control the hardware that their software interacts with, but they do care. They know that it is the best way to keep customers.

The only way Apple will pull ahead of Microsoft is to catch up to what Microsoft has and make it available on Windows. And they need to make the software good. Anyone who has used iTunes on Windows will agree that so far they have failed miserably at making their software on Windows good. Apple has to embrace everything about Windows and make everything completely compatible with Windows.
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