Microsoft hires Apple Store staff; potential employee walk-out - Page 3

That's exactly the reason why it will be so shitty for the MS end user.

Poaching employees is a quick way to get experienced people who are actually worth hiring. Paying them more than Apple does probably isn't too difficult either, but MS margins are pretty slim so these stores could very well lose money for the company. Not that losing money would be anything new for the boys from Redmond. Besides Office and professional services, everything at MS is either marginally successful or running in the red.

That may be true, but in this case, what experience is MS getting from hiring Apple retail employees that they can't get from any other successful retail employees? How much good is the employee's OS X experience or iPhone experience going to do MS in their stores?

[QUOTE=zoetmb;1486653]You can steal a few employees from another company, but if you try and steal lots of them you can be sued for predatory behavior. Having said that, if Microsoft is paying more and this in turn requires Apple to pay more to its employees, I think that's great.

But moving from Apple to Microsoft defeats the whole point of why Apple even exists. There is no loyalty anymore. The fact that I've been supporting Apple since the early 80's is because they have great products. To sell anything MicroSoft would be like selling drugs or gambling or booze. It's a terrible job. Selling Apple is like showing people the diff between a BMW and a Ford! Do you want to drive in comfort? Or make many visits to the dealership and loose doorknobs and failing transmissions and fading paint and rusting fenders and cheesey, deceptive salesmen! Come on!
Defending Microsoft is like defending Benny da Bankster! For you, todays dollar is tomorrows penny-the reverse for them! Wake up America! Stop being corn fed and corrupted by multinationals who want you to become a slave to their powerful kingdom. There are better ways of making a living than becoming a traitor! Support Apple (an imperfect company yes) let Microsoft stew in it's own poison!

So these people are scooping up all the extra jobs so you cant get one...how dare they do such a thing.

If someone has an original idea, all people are open to compete using his/her own original ideas in a fair manner.

Microsoft appears to not only be snatching ideas from Apple left and right, they are the Lampreys to Apple's shark. Trying to literally steal employees right from the stores? That's just disgusting, and not fair at all.

Just because it is possible and because it is for the sake of business does not mean it's the moral thing to do. Obviously Microsoft is acting out of fear by placing it's stores right on top of Apple Retail Stores. The way they've been acting I wouldn't be inclined to buy anything from Microsoft at this point.

You beat me to it! probably the real thing to say here, is with so many employee's, your going to probably get a few bad Apples (Pun intended). Hopefully Apple Inc. can take care of the problem.
But it definatly is not good press for such a "good" company to have walk outs...

Agreed. It will never be as smooth.

MS, however, may be willing to lose money on this part of the operation to try to cultivate a better customer service/support image (the one they have now is terrible). Passing the buck to another vendor would be counterproductive and just piss people off. I think they've probably already thought of this potential problem and would take the approach that the support people will try to solve all problems even if they are not just related to the OS. I think they know that they have to at least ACT like a single point of responsibility and try to make the answers palatable. Basic troubleshooting methods and a healthy dose of google searches can solve most problems people encounter.

The problem is that fixing these problems can take a LONG TIME, and I'm not sure it will work in the "Genius Bar" type of setting. I think that's where this may fail.

We are in a free market Economy. (although we appear to be becoming more Socialistic politically)
As such, as long as the Apple Employees are not breaking a contract, they are free to work for whom they can get hired. Apple is welcome to pay what the minimum the law will allow, or for that matter what ever they deem appropriate. But if they pay them to little, they are asking for problems keeping them. I Love apple products, but couldn't make it as an apple consultant, so now I work in the pc world and use my mac at home (and technically one at the office to, on my desk).

But we are in a free market economy. If you don't want to loose your talent, pay them to stay. If you can afford to loose your talent, that is your call. And the longevity of your company will be the proof if you were right or not.

Well this would be a positive in my opinion. Since my kid suffered through two of these ( each fixed by MS ) getting fixed in-store as opposed to shipping and waiting for return. At least they did the right thing and extended the warranty on these units, just as Apple has stood behind its hardware.

If MS is successful with its stores, they will all soon be out of a job.

Or it could be just a bunch of whiny Seattleites who have convinced themselves that they're always getting screwed by management in spite of what reality otherwise might indicate.

WOW! Your words could have been my very own. I've been using Macs and PCs in state government since 1986 and your scenario it right on the money. Needless to say I use Macs at home. I also do my own maintenance on my Macs at work.

In this economy, you have to be really careful. If I'm an Apple store employee and I'm unhappy with management, I apply and hopefully get the job at the Microsoft retail store, give my two weeks or even three weeks notice, and I leave my job at the Apple store due to personal reasons.

This is a cold business move though I understand it.

Edit: In this hypothetical situation, I need to make sure the benefits are set in stone otherwise I'm not jumping ship.

This is truly pathetic. So not only is Microsoft copying Apple with the Microsoft Store, they are now trying to hire Apple's staff to man their stores? That is unbelievable. Microsoft is beyond desperate. Do they have ANY original ideas?

There is absolutely nothing immoral about poaching employees. It happens all the time, in most industries and in the public sector. It's called capitalism. Where it runs into bad moral and legal territory is when too many employees are poached in predatory manner, as mentioned already in this thread. We have yet to know how many employees if any have crossed over, so it's impossible to say if MS will be in trouble with it.

Microsoft isn't acting out of fear, they're acting out of competition. They want to make money. They've obviously decided that it is in their best competitive interests to place the stores near Apple stores. Ever drive down a strip mall and see Wendy's, McDonald's, and Burger King all with a few blocks of each other? It's the same general idea.

Why are you so sad ? Upset that MS is copying Apple in their innovative and never been done before idea of opening a corporate store? I mean, that's totally horrible. Apple should like...sue them or something.

And then...MS having the gall to lure away some of Apple's employees with a better offer of employment, the travesty! Apple has never done something so sinister!

Maybe MS should get over with it and hire SJ. It easier this way since he only get $1 a year

Apple knows perfectly well it can be tough on employees right now. In the middle of a recession, people tend to suck it up or get fired. If they walk out, then they get fired and there will be plenty of other people willing to take the jobs. Short of actually flogging employees they can get away with quite a lot.

1. Apple staff have a genuine enthusiasm for gadgets and software
2. Most Mac people are familiar with both sides and can better argue one versus the other
3. Experience with iPod touch should make it easier to promote the Zune
4. MS probably thinks Apple hires better than average candidates
etc.

Sad isn't it? The registry is the source of all evil in Windows. Fix it, and Windows will break entirely and will die as everything will have to be rewritten, and when people see their precious backwards compatibility gone, they will all jump ship. Keep it, and stupid issues will always plague Windows and WinMob every day (like losing call notifications!), at random intervals, at the worst possible time.

When, not if, but when MS decides that the stores weren't a good idea, or are no longer economically feasible, or they're just ready to move on to the next 'shiny' concept, the folks that jumped ship will undoubtedly be on a list of folks not eligible for re-hire at the Apple stores, either.

One has to assess the possibilities and the consequences of hitching one's career 'star' to a concept described as 'ill-fated' at best. Apple employees probably shouldn't jump ship unless they've already calculated that they have no real future at Apple, or just no other employment choices. In this economy, nothing seems to be an easy or obvious decision. Best of luck to those who jump, whatever happens.

No, no, no. They will lure SJ away by offering him $2 per year.

Group policy depends on the registry. Microsoft would not get rid of one of the features that helps manage 100's of pc's at once a lot easier. The registry should not be gotten rid of.

Just make developers stick to the actual guidelines. Thats the problem not the registry existing. I wish people would understand that. I can make a terrible program screw up a mac also if i wanted to.

Isolated event at that Apple store, maybe a "bad apple."

MSFT catches up to its nimbler rival. Those gurus better have MCDST training cause they're gonna need it, and any techies jumping ship to MSFT will come back to Apple within months because Mac OS X is just so easier to work with!

If Apple became a religion, I would volunteer to work there just to spread the technology.

You can do the exact same thing without using a database that is binary based and can only be edited via regedit (yes third party utilities exists) instead of a typical text editor.

I've gone through the registry, and it is downright crappy that stuff has to go into the WindowsNT branch or the Windows branch, and how malware screws up stuff like exe associations.

Apple does it via XML or something similar, and Linux does it via text files. If either go broke, it can be deleted and easily recreated. Both allow reinstalling without losing your preferences and installed programs either, without any extra steps. Try doing that in the registry.

So the truth comes out for what the real purpose of the Microsoft Stores are.

As stores, they really didn't make sense. Microsoft doesn't really make hardware other then the xbox or zune and a few keyboards, mice and other accessories. Hardly enough to justify a store.

On software, they have quite a catalog and I guess they could sell other packages.

Support like in the Apple store is going to be much more difficult because of the nightmare that is the blessing of the all-you-can-eat free-for-all hardware bonaza on Windows...

So the real puzzle was, what could Microsoft possibly be hoping to accomplish?

Now we know. Disrupt Apple retail by poaching staff.

Pretty weak. That might have worked with a weaker company like Gateway or Dell (where they, quite frankly, were capable of submarining their retail stores without outside help) but Apple is a much stronger company, they have a compelling story and they can weather whatever short term pain MS might be able to generate.

And if it gets Apple to improve any employee situations that may exist - then great! But even with this, I'm still trying to figure out what Microsoft's real hope for an accomplishment is. Somewhere they have goals for these stores - and I wonder if they would be interesting or depressing....

I'm just wondering how long these stores will last, since (I assume) they'll only be selling Windows, Office, SQL, other software and their computer mice, keyboards, XBoxes and Zunes.

Maybe offer numerous classes (using MS software, troubleshooting computer problems)?

I assume the Gurus will have their hands full.

Will they go the way of the Seinfeld commercials -- and have as much impact?

MSFT stores will fail miserably IMHO because 1) PCs aren't as integrated as Macs 2) PCs are almost a commodity item that even Costco carries. Besides, if I want a PC I order direct from Dell.

if they do this walkout that is exactly what the management will do. at least during the walkout period. perhaps even after

which raises a possible question about what the issue is. hours. perhaps folks are pissed because they aren't getting a great number and working their butts off during busy periods because there there's not a major number of folks. again, totally legal but not nice.

perhaps, going to that end, if there's not enough staff, breaks like meal times are being delayed and that was pissing folks off. it is something that could be 'against the law'. for example, if the law says that you must take at least a 30 minute off the clock break no less than 5 hours into an 8 hour shift and folks are constantly having to wait 6 hours or even more. or they are supposed to be given a chance to take a paid 10 minute break (something that is in the Cali laws) each 4 hours they work as close to halfway in the middle of that block of time as possible (so basically you work 2 hours, take 10 minutes, work to the end of the next 2 hours, take a meal, repeat the 2+2 after meal) and they were not being allowed to take them.


actually the term you are looking for is 'at will' which means that there is no contract by either party to stay at the job. and yes it is possible that retail in Washington is 'at will'. although there is a whistleblower law that protects you from being fired for narcing to the state and/or feds for legal issues. so that might spare their jobs.


back/coat checks are very common in retail although most places require them to always be at the front of the store so you can't pocket something on the way out. I used to work at a major bookstore and we required you to get a property sticker put on everything you brought in that was currently, add ever been or could be sold in the store. it had to be done at the front counter (which was right by the doors) before you put your things away. and if you forgot the items were held until you could produce a receipt and you were given a write up. And during that write up you had to acknowledge the company's right to review all cameras ( in the event that you might have lifted a copy of something you had bought and were bringing in the old receipt).

The problem is, they own the majority of the crap, low-margin segment. Apple is much smaller, but has a market capitalization that's getting close (again) to Microsoft.

Apple's taking the cream.....

i'm a tad confused by this statement. in my most local store there are at least 8 trainers and 8 technicians. You are saying they have those jobs as a tool to get them to the big office in Cupertino. that in fact they were told that's where they were headed.

that doesn't really make sense to me. there's around 200 stores just in the US, lets make the math easy and say each has 10 folks in those 'teams' (5 and 5). that's 2000 folks promised a job in Cupertino. there's probably not that many more folks working there in total.

given this math and the notion that they would want the best of the best working at the top, it seems odd to say they are roadblocking and not perhaps that most folks just don't make the grade (or haven't yet)




Microsoft would say otherwise. they would claim they are placing them so close because they do NOT fear Apple. so this is like the retail equal of playing na-na at someone.




anyone with half a brain knows that you don't have to give a reason to quit an 'at will' job. so why would apple know that someone left to work at Microsoft. and if the person was a good worker and gave all the proper notice, a re-hire might be possible.

I do understand that concept; Walgreens on the adjacent corner to CVS. I suppose it just gets to me when Microsoft picks at Apple, and Apple seems to be in it for the growth of the creative aspect of their products rather than to squish the store across the street via whatever they can get their hands on. 'Suppose it's a personal issue with me. Also, just because a situation may occur often in business still does not mean that it is exempt from being immoral.

Yes it's odd that MS sees itself a cut-rate Apple Junior. I mean I would expect MS could be much more, though perhaps not.

But never underestimate the power of good retail. MS is still a titanic majority. If they source hardware from a good range of players, they could have a computer store as good as the Apple store. Odd that it falls to Microsoft to do that, but they could build a store I would visit. Win7, xbox, well chosen hardware and the store could be a good thing. Likely not, but let's condemn them if and when they do get it wrong.

I worked for apple, in their sales centre, in Ireland. Three years i worked there, and for most of it, i heard horror stories about management, but never saw it myself, and never believed it.

At least until my final six months. A new manager, who i clashed with made it her BUSINESS to manage me out. Apples HR is there to protect only one group of people, the Apple management.

I know people worship Jobs, but here's a truth about that man. He does not like strong sub-ordinates, and that culture extends the whole way down the chain in apple. Their management style is horrible beyond description, and the company will, without fail, fall on the side of management every time.

If those employees walk out, they'll be fired or managed out before the end of the year.

To the first poster, just because there's a recession on, doesn't give managers the right to treat other people like shit.

ARC is a program that helps the creme-de-la-creme get a summer internship in Cupertino. Retail employees can apply for several different positions (with the permission of their store's manager), but only a select few get the opportunity to go. It is not promised to anyone.

Was it really necessary to throw an insult to make a point? Civility is your friend.

Back on point, the reason that the Apple people will know is because it's already been said that the stores will be located near Apple stores, sometimes in the same mall. So, when someone quits at the Apple store and suddenly appears at the MS store, it's going to be obvious, to say the least. If the Apple store 'culture' is such that you're either 'one of us,' or 'one of them...' well.. Anyone... knows that a company doesn't have to be specific about why the employee isn't eligible for rehire, either; only that he isn't.

apple has changed
their workers are like robots now
i remember 3 yrs ago a much nicer feeling in the apple store
i remember not having to teach workers the basics when asking them a simple question
apple is now a mass market hyper profit hyper selling lean money making machine
which if they CARED would be ok >but apple does not care anymore . i will buy from them BUT i have moved on .


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to the new ZUNE accessory world store . there my new best buds

Apple would be doing the exact same thing if their positions were reversed.