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post #41 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by Abster2core View Post

I wonder how many realize that all those power adapters we have plugged in and use to recharge our cell phones and MP3 players draw power even if nothing is connected to them.

Why would you leave them plugged in if they weren't in use?


Quote:
But your nightlights do.

Haha very funny. Maybe its because my nightlights are actually performing what they're were purchased for? Same for my refrigerator and my battery operated smoke detector?
post #42 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by doyourownthing View Post

another original idea, in case someone wants to have a laugh

http://www.microsoft.com/environment/hohm.aspx


What is so funny about that? Looks like a very useful app to me, and Apple has nothing along these lines. And, it's free.
post #43 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by Abster2core View Post

I appreciate your response. And I would like to personally apologize to you.

I think you aren't really the troll you present yourself to be.

You just like to Yank Our Chains.

Unfortunately, when we retort likewise, i.e., by yanking your chain, we forget that there is nothing at the other end.

A potatoe perhaps?
post #44 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by teckstud View Post

Then why was Apple taken to task by Greenpeace 5 years ago? What kind of strategy was that?

As was shown at the time, nobody realized that Apple had a comprehensive environmental site in place at the time stating much of what is posted today, including product disclosures. And had the site up for years. Just like their ergonomic site, which it too has been around for over a decade.
post #45 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by teckstud View Post

A potatoe perhaps?

Sorry, teckstud. I just can't seem to extend my apology that far.
post #46 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by teckstud View Post

Why would you leave them plugged in if they weren't in use?

Because they are exactly where they left them, day-in and day-out.

Haha very funny. Maybe its because my nightlights are actually performing what they're were purchased for? Same for my refrigerator and my battery operated smoke detector?

So why aren't they 'motion-sensored'?


Convenience. Economics. Laziness. Ignorance. Stupidity.
post #47 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by Abster2core View Post


So why aren't they 'motion-sensored'?

Because they shouldn't be?
My refrigerator is coolness -sensored.
My smoke detector is smoke-sensored.
My night light is light-sensored.
And they all perform exactly for what they were purchased for. No more no less- unlike ATV
post #48 of 85
There's very little 'new' here, and certainly not a new website. Apple's environmental pages has been up for months (if not years). So they have different pictures and some PDFs now. Exciting.
post #49 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by teckstud View Post

Because they shouldn't be?
My refrigerator is coolness -sensored.
My smoke detector is smoke-sensored.
My night light is light-sensored.
And they all perform exactly for what they were purchased for. No more no less- unlike ATV

Am I to gather that you are still living at home with your parents?
post #50 of 85
I just showed this to my wife who is pursuing a Ph.D in Environmental Management. She is currently studying life cycle analysis issues for companies who are trying to lower their overall cabon footprint.

One thing about all this is that "being green" isn't completely altruistic to a publicly traded company. There are serious costs to be saved if you do it right. Reducing energy usage in your offices, manufacturing processes and shipping saves a company lots of money and drives up profits. The fact that aluminum Macbook Pros are carved from a single block where the remains can be melted down and used again means less aluminum that Apple has to buy. Smaller packaging means more product can be shipped from China at once, which reduces shipping costs substancially. Rycycling used products and parts does mean less in landfills but often these parts can be broken down and used again.

All companies like to lower their fixed costs. "Going Green" is a great way to do it if done properly, and the company looks better in the public eye for doing it.
post #51 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by Abster2core View Post

Am I to gather that you are still living at home with your parents?

Yes but unlike Mackenzie Philips I don't have sex with either one of them.
post #52 of 85
Good to see that Apple is pushing greener on certain fronts, but there are human rights issues that I’m personally more interested in when it comes to the manufacturing of these products (pretty much all products). I’d rather see Apple’s products made in America, not just developed, even if it meant paying a premium. At least I know that certain working conditions will be met and funds will be within my country’s borders.


Quote:
Originally Posted by teckstud View Post

A potatoe perhaps?

Teckstud is really Dan Quayle. That clears up a lot.
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post #53 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Teckstud is really Dan Quayle. That clears up a lot.

OMG- Mr. 10K + posts is back! Like a genie sprung from a bottle! I'll need to behave now.
post #54 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

Wow. On what authority are you saying this?

On what authority? Common sense. The atmosphere is made of an unimaginable amount of individual particles, all swirling and whirling and influencing each other and influenced by outside factors. There is no way we have an accurate mathematical model of that without making massive simplification. The idea that in such a complex system, we can say with any certainty, that one gas: carbon dioxide is the source of all our problems is just epistemologically untenable.

Quote:
And, what shall we rely on instead? Visions?

Well we shouldn't let social pressure override our common sense about what man is and is not capable of mathematically and epistemologically.

You accuse me of being superstitious, and yet to me it seems you are the superstitious one, imbuing man with almost God-like powers of cognition, understanding and prediction.
post #55 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sevenfeet View Post

I just showed this to my wife who is pursuing a Ph.D in Environmental Management. She is currently studying life cycle analysis issues for companies who are trying to lower their overall cabon footprint.

One thing about all this is that "being green" isn't completely altruistic to a publicly traded company. There are serious costs to be saved if you do it right. Reducing energy usage in your offices, manufacturing processes and shipping saves a company lots of money and drives up profits. The fact that aluminum Macbook Pros are carved from a single block where the remains can be melted down and used again means less aluminum that Apple has to buy. Smaller packaging means more product can be shipped from China at once, which reduces shipping costs substancially. Rycycling used products and parts does mean less in landfills but often these parts can be broken down and used again.

All companies like to lower their fixed costs. "Going Green" is a great way to do it if done properly, and the company looks better in the public eye for doing it.

WTG Captain Obvious. I don't need to do a Ph.D in Environmental Management to know that. It would be a hideously expensive marketing ploy if they didn't get anything else out of it.
post #56 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by star-fish View Post

WTG Captain Obvious. I don't need to do a Ph.D in Environmental Management to know that. It would be a hideously expensive marketing ploy if they didn't get anything else out of it.

You may not need it.

However as long as there are others, and some are here, that doesn't appreciate or get the idea of what the benefits of a 'clean' home are, need the din.

Otherwise, noise wins. And we don't need the crap that clings to it.
post #57 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

You really should inform yourself a bit better. Here's a good start: http://www.ipcc.ch/publications_and_...sis_report.htm

Perhaps you should better educate yourself as well. There are 2 sides to this debate. Climate change is real. Whether or not it's significantly man-made is VERY much in doubt.

http://epw.senate.gov/public/index.c...0-274616db87e6
post #58 of 85
well whether the Apple TV has an off switch or not you could always unplug it.
post #59 of 85
1. Hewlett-Packard
2. Dell
4. Intel
5. IBM
12. Cisco Systems
14. Sun Microsystems
16. Adobe Systems
21. Motorola
23. Texas Instruments
31. Microsoft
69. Yahoo
79. Google
126. AT&T
133. Apple

Obviously, I picked out tech companies (skipped a few) to compare to Apple.
post #60 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by drdb View Post

well whether the apple tv has an off switch or not you could always unplug it.

NO_ Really???
post #61 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gregg View Post

1. Hewlett-Packard
2. Dell
4. Intel
5. IBM
12. Cisco Systems
14. Sun Microsystems
16. Adobe Systems
21. Motorola
23. Texas Instruments
31. Microsoft
69. Yahoo
79. Google
126. AT&T
133. Apple

Obviously, I picked out tech companies (skipped a few) to compare to Apple.

Wow and that's current?
post #62 of 85
Funny how there is an environmental green rating yet no slave labor manufacturing rating?
I wonder how Apple does on that level?
post #63 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by ascii View Post

On what authority? Common sense. The atmosphere is made of an unimaginable amount of individual particles, all swirling and whirling and influencing each other and influenced by outside factors. There is no way we have an accurate mathematical model of that without making massive simplification. The idea that in such a complex system, we can say with any certainty, that one gas: carbon dioxide is the source of all our problems is just epistemologically untenable.

Well we shouldn't let social pressure override our common sense about what man is and is not capable of mathematically and epistemologically.

You accuse me of being superstitious, and yet to me it seems you are the superstitious one, imbuing man with almost God-like powers of cognition, understanding and prediction.

I have no idea what 'epistemologically untenable' means, but it is often a thin line between stupidity and uninformed common sense. See under Big KC's post below.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Big KC View Post

Perhaps you should better educate yourself as well. There are 2 sides to this debate. Climate change is real. Whether or not it's significantly man-made is VERY much in doubt.

http://epw.senate.gov/public/index.c...0-274616db87e6

Groan. You give me a link to Senator Inhofe's web page!? Heaven help us.

I suppose this partial, tiny list of organizations must be uninformed when they say that global warming is anthropogenic: The scientific academies of Australia, Belgium, Brazil, Canada, China, France, Germany, India, Indonesia, Ireland, Italy, Japan, Malaysia, Mexico, New Zealand, Russia, South Africa, Sweden, the UK, and the US, as well as the American Meteorological Society, American Geophysical Union, American Institute of Physics, American Astronomical Society, American Association for the Advancement of Science, Stratigraphy Commission of the Geological Society of London, Geological Society of America, and American Chemical Society. And, I should add, the US EPA under George Bush.

As I said before, it is a thin line between stupidity and common sense. But you know what? There is no law against either, so go right ahead.
post #64 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

The new Web site also pushes Apple's recycling program, where users can learn how to send in their old iPod, iPhone or Mac. Users of handheld devices can fill out a form with their name and address and will be provided a prepaid mailer, while Mac owners can recycle their old system for free with the purchase of any new system in an Apple Store.

poorly written statement. 1. it leaves out the discount for bring an ipod to the store and 2, it implies you can drop off your computer. you can not. if you dig deeper you will see that the computers are all shipped. the question is who pays the shipping and recycling fees. if you just bought a computer (from Apple in store or online), they will pay. if not, you do. this probably has to do with that non refundable recycling fee you have to pay in many states now when you buy electronics.

Quote:
Originally Posted by str1f3 View Post

Interesting. Jobs himself even speaks out in this article. He must really care about this himself although it should come as no surprise. It good to see Apple leading the front on environmental awareness.

actually it is something of a PR move. they are pushing to be more open about why they made some of the choices they did to stop some of the screaming. they get applause from the pro-environment types for the green side and those that are screaming 'down with the glass' see that there is a rhyme and reason to the screen choice even if it does have serious glare issues. if and when Apple can find a non reflective glass that is environmentally friendly and cost effective enough to use without more than a $30-50 surcharge to the customers they will announce it with great fanfare and shouting of how green it is

plus as others pointed out, these days being green is often more cost effective across the board. so we get practically a sleeve with our snow leopard, they dump the manuals for DVDs full of PDF for final cut studio etc

Quote:
Originally Posted by teckstud View Post

I'm sorry, but in NO way is the APPLETV environmentally green or progressive.

yes and no.

yes in that the idea behind the device is to promote digital media and thus reduce the plastic being produced and filling up houses and landfills.

no in that, as you suggest, it is not the best made device, using up perhaps too much energy, being made of a poor choice of materials etc.

and to those saying 'but it's only a tiny bit of energy', remember that you are thinking one device. TS is likely thinking of the impact of the single drop repeated a few thousand times.


Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

What is so funny about that? Looks like a very useful app to me, and Apple has nothing along these lines. And, it's free.

but ask yourself this. how green is microsoft. how green is their offices and production centers. how green is the hardware they do produce and do they make any requirements on their partners to be green and be open about it.

could it be that Microsoft isn't really green at all and this is something of a smoke screen so folks don't do the math. or ask the questions

as for the software, just because Apple doesn't make and promote such an item doesn't mean that it isn't out there provided by someone else.
post #65 of 85
I see they've got a big check mark next to mercury, yet the iMac, MacBook and 30" Cinema Display still ship with fluorescent backlighting. Maybe this means they're finally going to extend LED backlighting to the entire product line. That would be nice change
post #66 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by ascii View Post

I thought it wasn't clear the carbon is the cause of climate change. This could all be a big waste of time by Apple.

Congratulations, you have been successfully confused by the multibillion dollar efforts of various vested interests and their attempts to confuse the issue.

Greenhouse gasses have been studied and understood for close to 40 years now. There is no controversy in the science community around the fact that Carbon (dioxide) emissions have warmed the planet. But just watch as all sorts of "sciency" folks will leap to dispute this with no scientific evidence whatsoever (just a paycheck for their "research" from an oil company.)

I think, after that dog wouldn't hunt anymore, the "scientists" from the cigarette companies must have gotten new jobs with oil companies.
post #67 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bregalad View Post

I see they've got a big check mark next to mercury, yet the iMac, MacBook and 30" Cinema Display still ship with fluorescent backlighting. Maybe this means they're finally going to extend LED backlighting to the entire product line. That would be nice change

that would be great. They are long overdue. It was rumoured that the lack ACD updates was Apple waiting for Resolution Independence before adding higher PPI displays, but that ship has sailed with Leopard and Snow Leopard having such poor RI completion. The current popular theory is that making a 30 or bigger LCD display with a that size LED-backliht proved to be a problem; but we dont really know. I do hope that they get updated soon with mDP connectors and power-passthroughs since notebooks do continue to grow in popularity.
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post #68 of 85
I'm not really a huge environmentalist though I feel if there's a laptop that has less chemicals made and is more easily recyclable for the same price as something that is not, eh I'll go for it.
post #69 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by Abster2core View Post

As was shown at the time, nobody realized that Apple had a comprehensive environmental site in place at the time stating much of what is posted today, including product disclosures. And had the site up for years. Just like their ergonomic site, which it too has been around for over a decade.

Actually, I have always assumed that Greenpeace was just attacking Apple to get some free advertising.
Even a cursory examination of Apple's products at the time would have easily shown how much more green they were then existing alternatives. Apple's products were made of more valuable materials, were more recyclable, were used less packaging, less energy, lasted longer, iTMS etc. For God's sake, Greenpeace rated producer of "disposable" computers *Dell* greener than Apple. Same for HP, and IBM/Lenovo. This was done mostly on the strength of what these companies claimed they were planning to do in the future. Greenpeace actually valued these companies' promised actions for the future more than Apple's good actions of past and present.
What Apple really learned was to toot their own horn. If people don't notice the good things you are doing, you get no credit for doing them. Its good though. It will make all companies more conscientious about their actions.
post #70 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gregg View Post

1. Hewlett-Packard
2. Dell
4. Intel
5. IBM
12. Cisco Systems
14. Sun Microsystems
16. Adobe Systems
21. Motorola
23. Texas Instruments
31. Microsoft
69. Yahoo
79. Google
126. AT&T
133. Apple

Obviously, I picked out tech companies (skipped a few) to compare to Apple.

Clearly, like most "green" assesments, this is a friccking sham.
http://www.newsweek.com/id/215522

Read the criteria and scoring system. Its 1/3 based on what the companies say they are doing or are planning to do, 1/3 based on the companies' perceived reputations, and only 1/3 based on actual impacts (but poorly measured) see here:
http://www.trucost.com/newsweek/howTrucostWorks.php

It also looks at company inputs/outputs in a stupid way. They look as sources, but not use. If they waste tons of energy but it's bought from wind farms, they are green, but if they carefully use a minimum of conventionally generated electricity, the company sucks (one reason Dell and HP do so well.)

Also notice that in the criteria and methodology they are not looking very hard at the life cycle of the products these companies produce. Hello! That's the main source of environmental issues a manufacturing company generates. "They make a wasteful product that ends up in a landfill, but gosh, their boardroom table is made of plantation harvested mahogany."

Apparently nobody noticed that Apple, almost singlehandedly, turned the manufacture, distribution, and use, and eventual disposal of music into ones and zeros and a flash of electricity. What's more important?
post #71 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

As I said before, it is a thin line between stupidity and common sense. But you know what? There is no law against either, so go right ahead.

So, the 700+ scientists who are not buying into global warming being a man-made, carbon-produced disaster are wrong, and you and Al Gore are right? 30 years ago we were told that another ice age was coming. Now it's the other way around. The liberal media sees to it that these dissenters are largely unheard from, and discredits them whenever possible. Gee, that's a big surprise.

It's all about the Benjamins. Gore profits mightily from his outrageous "carbon credits" nonsense (while living like the ultra-wealthy, over-consuming limousine liberal that he is). Cap-and-trade is nothing more than a money grab.
post #72 of 85
Climate change is good. Evolution only happens with change. The strong and adaptable win, the weak and un-adaptable lose. And the planet endures, regardless. That's the way it's been for eons. Why are we concerned about it now?
post #73 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by frugality View Post

Climate change is good. Evolution only happens with change. The strong and adaptable win, the weak and un-adaptable lose. And the planet endures, regardless. That's the way it's been for eons. Why are we concerned about it now?

I don't know if it's one of the most hilarious comments I've read or the most insane.
post #74 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by frugality View Post

Climate change is good. Evolution only happens with change. The strong and adaptable win, the weak and un-adaptable lose. And the planet endures, regardless. That's the way it's been for eons. Why are we concerned about it now?

Because we're not as strong and adaptable as we'd like to think.

The worry about climate change isn't for the planet's sake, it's for ours.
post #75 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by frugality View Post

Climate change is good. Evolution only happens with change. The strong and adaptable win, the weak and un-adaptable lose. And the planet endures, regardless. That's the way it's been for eons. Why are we concerned about it now?

Yours is a common misrepresentation of natural selection ("survival of the fittest") as a promotion of the good ("strong and adaptable") and punishment of the bad ("weak and unadaptable.") In other words, you are conflating "survival of the fittest" with "survival of the best." But of course nature makes no such value judgments, only people do. It's what has come to be called "Social Darwinism" which is a seperate (and some would say debunked) concept which has no real relation to Darwin or the evolution of species.

When evolutionary pressure is put on a species, the whole population are stressed and suffers. Individuals who are lucky enough to have some slightly beneficial mutant character (which well may be a "weak and unadaptable" trait in slightly different circumstances) may be slightly more abel to survive and possibly reproduce in the new situation. But all the individuals suffer the stress.

Your idea is as ridiculous as praising the lucky single survivor of a massive carpet bombing attack, then ridiculing the hundreds of dead victims as "weak and unadaptable," and finally claiming, "Carpet bombing is a great thing because it makes us stronger."
post #76 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big KC View Post

So, the 700+ scientists who are not buying into global warming being a man-made, carbon-produced disaster are wrong, and you and Al Gore are right? 30 years ago we were told that another ice age was coming. Now it's the other way around. The liberal media sees to it that these dissenters are largely unheard from, and discredits them whenever possible. Gee, that's a big surprise.

It's all about the Benjamins. Gore profits mightily from his outrageous "carbon credits" nonsense (while living like the ultra-wealthy, over-consuming limousine liberal that he is). Cap-and-trade is nothing more than a money grab.

I'll answer that! Yup.
Those scientists you cite are mostly unqualified to comment intelligently as experts on the issue (outside their expertise.) Of all the scientists who actually are experts in the field, only a very small minority (around 1-2%) take the stance you describe. But science isn't a poll, its a weighing machine, and anthropogenic global warming is what weighs true.
post #77 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by DESuserIGN View Post

I'll answer that! Yup.
Those scientists you cite are mostly unqualified to comment intelligently as experts on the issue (outside their expertise.) Of all the scientists who actually are experts in the field, only a very small minority (around 1-2%) take the stance you describe. But science isn't a poll, its a weighing machine, and anthropogenic global warming is what weighs true.

I don't know how you came up with those statistics but please provide a link that is not a conservative blog. It's sounds as if you're using wordplay. Just because only 700 address the issue does not believe that most believe it is not the main problem. The only scientists who disagree have been those employed by the oil industry.
post #78 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by DESuserIGN View Post

I'll answer that! Yup.
Those scientists you cite are mostly unqualified to comment intelligently as experts on the issue (outside their expertise.) Of all the scientists who actually are experts in the field, only a very small minority (around 1-2%) take the stance you describe. But science isn't a poll, its a weighing machine, and anthropogenic global warming is what weighs true.

As long as science requires a person to make initial assumptions, there will always be error introduced, and in a controversial topic such as global warming a scientists personal bias can have an effect on the outcome.

There is a large difference between stating that CO2 is a greenhouse gas (it is and can be easily isolated and tested) and stating that the global warming is a direct result of man made CO2 emissions (many assumptions need to be made, some variables will become constants, some factors will likely be ignored, etc. etc.). You have to factor in natural sources of CO2, the suns intensity, earths declination, albedo, ability to absorb CO2, effects of other greenhouse gases, etc. Some factors can only be estimated, we probably aren't even aware of some, and some don't have enough historical data. For example, we only have satellite imagery of the polar ice caps for 3-4 solar cycles, the conclusions that have been drawn from a sample size of three are astounding.

I'm all for reducing CO2 emissions even though we don't know what effect they have had or will have on our planet. At best we have done no harm, at worst we have done a lot of harm. It would be good to err on the side of caution.

The amount of blind faith placed in science (not by you, but the general population) disturbs me. It is becoming a religion in itself, which is exactly what it shouldn't be. It should encourage free thought, not "so and so is a scientist and he says this, therefore has to be true". "Science" has been wrong many times (usually due to new data on a subject emerging), it is not an absolute truth and should not be taken for granted.
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post #79 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmf2 View Post

As long as science requires a person to make initial assumptions, there will always be error introduced, and in a controversial topic such as global warming a scientists personal bias can have an effect on the outcome.

There is a large difference between stating that CO2 is a greenhouse gas (it is and can be easily isolated and tested) and stating that the global warming is a direct result of man made CO2 emissions (many assumptions need to be made, some variables will become constants, some factors will likely be ignored, etc. etc.). You have to factor in natural sources of CO2, the suns intensity, earths declination, albedo, ability to absorb CO2, effects of other greenhouse gases, etc. Some factors can only be estimated, we probably aren't even aware of some, and some don't have enough historical data. For example, we only have satellite imagery of the polar ice caps for 3-4 solar cycles, the conclusions that have been drawn from a sample size of three are astounding.

I'm all for reducing CO2 emissions even though we don't know what effect they have had or will have on our planet. At best we have done no harm, at worst we have done a lot of harm. It would be good to err on the side of caution.

The amount of blind faith placed in science (not by you, but the general population) disturbs me. It is becoming a religion in itself, which is exactly what it shouldn't be. It should encourage free thought, not "so and so is a scientist and he says this, therefore has to be true". "Science" has been wrong many times (usually due to new data on a subject emerging), it is not an absolute truth and should not be taken for granted.

I agree - excellent post.

I'm all for protecting the environment and doing my part - it makes perfect sense to do so. But I take issue with people like Mr. Gore telling me I'm "destroying the planet" by using an incandescent light bulb as they fly in their private jets, live in their energy-consuming mansions, enjoy a lavish lifestyle, etc.

If anyone needs to cut back on energy consumption and reduce their "carbon footprint", it's Mr. Gore and those like him, who are responsible for more so-called "damage" to the planet than I could ever possibly do.

Don't mistake this for a "class warfare" attack on my part. If someone has earned their money legitimately, I believe they should have the freedom to spend it how they wish. But when they start telling me - an average middle-class guy trying to put food on the table for his family and make ends meet - that driving an SUV is wrong, as they hop in their stretch limo, I just can't take them seriously.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #80 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by str1f3 View Post

I don't know how you came up with those statistics but please provide a link that is not a conservative blog. It's sounds as if you're using wordplay. Just because only 700 address the issue does not believe that most believe it is not the main problem. The only scientists who disagree have been those employed by the oil industry.

You need to work on reading comprehension (or possibly read referenced posts?) You read my post as 180 degrees opposite to you when actually our stances are aligned.
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