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Euro

post #1 of 42
Thread Starter 
A new money will be effectly be use next year in twelwe states of europe (not in Great Britain) .
For me i have to think in euro now and forgot the franc, germans peoples will have to forgot the Mark, italians the lire ...
This will be a big change. It will be a little difficult at first, but when we will travel it will much more simple : no change to make.

There will be 2 advantages with the euro for the americans people :
first : when you will travel in europe you will need at least two money pounds for GB and euro for the others states (Germany, Italy, spain, France, belgium, austria, Greece, nederland, Portugal ... )
second : The euro is a small $ : for one dollar you get 1,10 euro. So for converting prize, Prize in euro is prize in dollars minus 10 % of reduction. At the reverse the use of the $ will be more simple for europeans it will be a bif euro (add 10 %)
post #2 of 42
You guys are soon to become a collection of states like the US right now. in ten years i envision the Unites States or Europe made up of former countries. Maybe it wouldn't be such a bad thing. Now you all have to agree on a language. Say, most of you already speak english....hmm. Sure would make it easier on us 'dumb' americans.
post #3 of 42
Thread Starter 
[quote]Originally posted by Outsider:
<strong>You guys are soon to become a collection of states like the US right now. in ten years i envision the Unites States or Europe made up of former countries. Maybe it wouldn't be such a bad thing. Now you all have to agree on a language. Say, most of you already speak english....hmm. Sure would make it easier on us 'dumb' americans. </strong><hr></blockquote>
I have nothing against an united state of europe dispite the fact we are very far from it. For the language each language carry a huge culture and no one can let disapear such an heritage. However english is the first foreign language choose in school, it's the most popular language in the world.

Some european people have more skill to earn foreigh language, scandinavians and germans people are very strong for that, french people are not very good but the younger generation will be better, the worse of all are people from Great Britain (in general: there is always tremendeous exceptions) because nearly everybody speak english.
post #4 of 42
OOPS!!! I made a huge typo, forgive me. I didn't mean "United States or Europe", I meant "United States of Europe" or the U.S.E. It changed the whole meaning of my post.
post #5 of 42
Americans do not realize what thousands of years of culture and history will do to people. In fact most Americans barely have a firm grasp of US history, let alone Europe, Asia, and the rest of the world...

I'm quite excited about the Euro... Sure, no longer will there be Francs, Guilders, Lira, and a bunch of other currencies, but think of business: a common currency will help everyone, from shop keepers to the snack man on the train (I remember dealing with a snack guy as I traveled through the Alps. That guy had to deal with three sets of currency: Where the train was, is, and will be... Yuck!).

Anyhow, I can tell stories from my travels later... Got to go to work!

[ 12-21-2001: Message edited by: Xool ]</p>
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post #6 of 42
It seems like a big move to give up one's currency. Didn't the King of France get caught trying to escape the revolution because his head was imprinted on the coin and some bar keep recognized him from that? Or is that a tall tail of some kind that I heard?
post #7 of 42
Thread Starter 
[quote]Originally posted by Scott H.:
<strong>It seems like a big move to give up one's currency. Didn't the King of France get caught trying to escape the revolution because his head was imprinted on the coin and some bar keep recognized him from that? Or is that a tall tail of some kind that I heard?</strong><hr></blockquote>

It's seems true. The King of France Louis XVI was recognized by an Inn's keeper, at this time photo did not exist so may be the fact that his face was printed on all coins, was the only way to recognized him.
post #8 of 42
powerdoc: Did you get the Euro starter pack? Kinda strange to look at new coins after all these years. But I'm all excited to see the rest, too.

Outsider: Of course nobody really knows, but I don't think the European Union will become something like the United States of Europe in the next 30 years. Personally, I'd love to see that however.
post #9 of 42
Thread Starter 
[quote]Originally posted by Infinite Void:
<strong>powerdoc: Did you get the Euro starter pack? Kinda strange to look at new coins after all these years. But I'm all excited to see the rest, too.

Outsider: Of course nobody really knows, but I don't think the European Union will become something like the United States of Europe in the next 30 years. Personally, I'd love to see that however. </strong><hr></blockquote>
i get five of them. However i am little disapointed by the quality of the coins, there are not very beautiffull.
post #10 of 42
I still think the U.K., Denmark and Norway should have adopted the Euro too.
post #11 of 42
[quote]Originally posted by soulcrusher:

<strong>I still think the U.K., Denmark and Norway should have adopted the Euro too.</strong><hr></blockquote>

They made a choice that they saw was in their best interests. How can you in Costa Rica know better than a citizen of Copenhagen what is best for him?

There will certainly be some advantages to the Euro but there will also be disadvantages. The needs of Naples might be ill-served by a monetary policy that is more in tune with what Amsterdam requires and vice versa. But both Holland and Italy have chosen to be a part of this experiment. We'll see how it fares. The Euro got off to a very rocky start last year. From what I hear things have stabilized nicely recently.
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post #12 of 42
[quote]Originally posted by roger_ramjet:
<strong> They made a choice that they saw was in their best interests. How can you in Costa Rica know better than a citizen of Copenhagen what is best for him? </strong><hr></blockquote>

It was not the question, what would be the best for the country but what will make me win the next election that kept the governments of those countries from opting for the euro
post #13 of 42
[quote]Originally posted by smalM:

<strong>It was not the question, what would be the best for the country but what will make me win the next election that kept the governments of those countries from opting for the euro. </strong><hr></blockquote>

Well that's your take. I'm sure others view the matter differently. Many see this as a last stand for national sovereignty. If I was a Dane, I'd certainly think twice about ceding my country's monetary policy to Brussels or Bonn or wherever the hell the Euro's central bank is located.
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post #14 of 42
[quote]Originally posted by roger_ramjet:
<strong>
How can you in Costa Rica know better than a citizen of Copenhagen what is best for him?
</strong><hr></blockquote>

Since I just heard the Copenhagen town hall bell outside my wndow I will speak my voice now.

On the Euro: I am pretty glad we didn´t go all the way and replaced our Krone with the Euro. On the short term it would be better for us to join since our currency follow the Euro within a very narrow band but have a little higher interest rate and because we are one of the countries with the highest import/export per capita in the world. But on the other hand Europe is not one economic zone, not even after the Euro. And that have some consequences:

1): All countries have their own social security and tax collection. Here in Denmark our hospitals, schools, unemployment benefits aso. are paid through taxes while other countries have a employer based system and again other private ensuriense(sp?) based. Therefore we cannot have one tax system. We pay about 45% of the GNP in tax while in other countries they pay 25% and the citizent of each country charish their system and probably won´t change it for a common european one.

2): One of the effects of federal taxes within one currency area is that when one part of the area is succesful the tax system automaticly transfers money to other parts of the area. But if you have one currency and no common tax system slow down in one part of the area won´t be "ironed out" and that part will be hit even more when you have to stick to the common currency. And Europe is so diverse that that is very likely to happen.

On the United States of Europe: I would rather have a large EU than a United States of Europe of only 15-18 countries. But on the other hand I really think the world really need another political power to stand up against US in world politics. Not that everything US does is wrong but it is never healthy when only one power is on the stage. Reason is discurtive/communicative and not a product of dictation. Just one year ago I would have said that US of E would be wrong but seeing how USA is handling Israel, climate talks, ABM, GATT aso I am glad Europe has started talking with one voice. Not that I always agrees with it but on every issues I have been closer to the voice of EU than that of US.

Hope it made sense. If it didn´t it is because its 3 am here and I should be sleeping.
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post #15 of 42
The tax issue is an interesting one that is way to complex for me and I would guess anyone else here. I read that the EU was pressuring countries that decided on a lower tax structure to raise the taxes. That would bring them more in line with other EU countries. I guess it never occurred to them that their taxes are too high and they needed to lower them.
post #16 of 42
There was never a choice for Norway to adopt the Euro. Norway isn't even part of the EU (european Union)...
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post #17 of 42
[quote]Originally posted by Scott H.:
<strong>I read that the EU was pressuring countries that decided on a lower tax structure to raise the taxes. That would bring them more in line with other EU countries. I guess it never occurred to them that their taxes are too high and they needed to lower them. </strong><hr></blockquote>

The problem here is that we have different systems and want to maintaine it that way. But we also have the right to go to different parts of Europe to work, get educations aso. Education is totally free from kindergarden to Ph.D. here in Denmark and from the age of 18 and until you are finished you get paid $600 and can get a $250 extreme low interest loan each month. And your rent and transport is subsidiced aso aso. So Denmark along with Sweden and Norway is probably the best place to take your education in Europe.

You later pay the expenses to education (and pensions, hospitals aso.) over the tax while the tax is lower in GB, Ireland, Italy and Greece. So for me personally it would be better to move away from Denmark when I have finished my education in three years. And then return to Denmark when I am 65 years old to collect the pension from the state.

If the difference between the two systems (tax paid and individual paid) is too large too many people will do as described. And that will put a lot of pressure on the Danish system and benefit the low tax areas. So to compensate for that EU is trying to maintaine a minimum tax level.

Actually I am very luckily since I both have the benefits of the EU system (being able to live and work anywhere in EU if I have a job no questions asked) and the internal scandinavian system (move to Sweden or Norway on a permanent basis and afaik even gain citizentship). Perhaps I´ll move to Norway in a couple of years. I think my education (sociology) is more used and respected there than here (anyone in the state administration here are either former law or economy students), I am a cross country skiin freak and the NorwegianÂ*Jenter makes my knees weak

[ 12-28-2001: Message edited by: Anders ]</p>
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post #18 of 42
It's much more complex than even that. Look at all the fighting over the "Economic Stimulus" in the US Congress. The tax structure has an effect on the economy of an area as well as the monetary policy. How do you set on monetary policy for many different countries with very different levels of taxation?
post #19 of 42
Indeed while a USE is far from the American model, also taxes are far from being harmonized.

But I think that is a good thing in certain respects.

If I have to compare Scandinavian culture and habits and Italian ones, we are two totally different planes. Nordic states "like" having high taxes but then being pampered and, actually, taken care of by the state.

Something like that in Italy would be unthinkabe, at least for now. Already money is handled like $hit, I cant imagine them with more money.

BTW, while we can travel and work and study freely in any EU country, we can't "loiter around". i.e. You must be doing something productive (study or work). If a German comes to Italy he can stay for a limited amount of time living there. Its weird, I also have Italian citizenship and while I work or live in Belgium I have to be registered in my commune. I dont need a work permit, but I do need to be registered. Weird.

How does it work in the USA? I never worked there... If I live in NYC and then move to Atlanta, say, do I need to 'unregister' myself from NYC and let the city of Atlanta know I live there? I lived most of my life in the USA, but these things were taken care of by my parents since I was a kid.

On another note, while I may appear a bit biased, I think the Italian Euro coins are the nicest. The Finnish ones are pretty nice too. All the others are pretty bland. Luxembourg, Spain, Holland, Belgium all have a royal's head (boring), the french one has boring hexagons on it and a few other boring things, and the german one has that odd eagle on almost all of them too. Want to see them? <a href="http://www.cnnitalia.it/2001/DOSSIER/euro/index.html" target="_blank">http://www.cnnitalia.it/2001/DOSSIER/euro/index.html</a> Its in Italian, but if you click on the right hand link where it says 2Banconote e Monete2 you get a great popup window with a closeup of all coins of all countries and the non-descript banknotes

Welcome Euro!!! Its about frikken time!!!!

[ 12-29-2001: Message edited by: ZO ]</p>
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post #20 of 42
[quote]I guess it never occurred to them that their taxes are too high and they needed to lower them. <hr></blockquote>

Why exactly are their taxes too high?

[ 12-29-2001: Message edited by: trick fall ]</p>
post #21 of 42
[quote]Originally posted by soulcrusher:
<strong>I still think the U.K., Denmark and Norway should have adopted the Euro too.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I wish the UK would make their mind up! We're still in the 'err, we might do someday... perhaps' mood at the moment.

Amorya
post #22 of 42
[quote]Originally posted by ZO:
<strong>On another note, while I may appear a bit biased, I think the Italian Euro coins are the nicest. The Finnish ones are pretty nice too. All the others are pretty bland. Luxembourg, Spain, Holland, Belgium all have a royal's head (boring), the french one has boring hexagons on it and a few other boring things, and the german one has that odd eagle on almost all of them too.
</strong><hr></blockquote>

Si, è vero.

Sei un' italiano emigrato o come mai ti trovi in Belgio?
post #23 of 42
[quote]Originally posted by Amorya:
<strong>

I wish the UK would make their mind up! We're still in the 'err, we might do someday... perhaps' mood at the moment.

Amorya</strong><hr></blockquote>

Yes but it is slightly different for us than for most of the countries joining the Euro. Most of the countries joining have (until January) a low value unit of currency i.e. you can buy almost nothing with 1 Franc. But because the UK had late decimalization (the early 70's) 1 pound is still worth quite a lot i.e most chocolate bars & cans of drink are well under a pound as are all dally papers.
So while in France you will be able to get more stuff for 1 Euro than 1 Franc (The French version of 'Who wants to be a Millionaire' is going to have to give away loads more cash)
If the Uk joined up it would be opposite, by a massive margin 1 Euro is worth about 60p. So stuff (at a glance) is going to look almost twice as expensive. ('Millionaire' would be giving less cash here)
It's a psychological thing
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post #24 of 42
How does it work in the USA? I never worked there... If I live in NYC and then move to Atlanta, say, do I need to 'unregister' myself from NYC and let the city of Atlanta know I live there?

heh that's a funny thought. but no you don't have to do nothing of the sort. you are pretty much free to move from state to state at will, unless you are a registered child molester or are restricted to because of some criminal activity.
post #25 of 42
All economic factors aside (because I know nothing about them), the Euro is one gorgeous looking currency. I really wish the US had taken some initiative when we redesigned our bills to bring them up to date stylistically, rather than just adding security features and keeping the same old boring dead guys on green paper motif.
post #26 of 42
[quote]Originally posted by poor taylor:
<strong>the Euro is one gorgeous looking currency.</strong><hr></blockquote>
IMHO I think the Euro notes look like someone went a bit mad with the crayons. money needs to look important, not like a 'fun colored picture'
<strong> [quote]I really wish the US had taken some initiative when we redesigned our bills to bring them up to date stylistically, rather than just adding security features and keeping the same old boring dead guys on green paper motif.</strong><hr></blockquote>
They could have even just made them different sizes. How is some one with really bad sight supposed to tell one green rectangular bit of paper from another?
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post #27 of 42
Another reason why Europe is such a great place to live; easy to work from one country to the other and now same money. It makes sense.
post #28 of 42
Can someone post a picture of the Euro here?
post #29 of 42
[quote]Originally posted by ZO:
<strong>
How does it work in the USA? I never worked there... If I live in NYC and then move to Atlanta, say, do I need to 'unregister' myself from NYC and let the city of Atlanta know I live there?[ 12-29-2001: Message edited by: ZO ]</strong><hr></blockquote>

If you're a non-citizen you do have to "register" (hopefully they do so) to live in the US for an extended period of time.
If you're a citizen you don't need to of course, but you would need a new drivers license and would start paying taxes in that new state, etc. My point is somebody would know you left and arrived but they can't review or stop you from doing it.
post #30 of 42
[quote]Originally posted by poor taylor:
<strong> I really wish the US had taken some initiative when we redesigned our bills to bring them up to date stylistically, rather than just adding security features and keeping the same old boring dead guys on green paper motif.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Perhaps so but I think from a physiological stand point the power of that "black and green" paper can't be underestimated. In many places our currency is the only currency.

Chris
post #31 of 42
[quote]Originally posted by MacAgent:
<strong>Can someone post a picture of the Euro here?</strong><hr></blockquote>

<a href="http://www.cnnitalia.it/2001/DOSSIER/euro/pop.monete/frameset.exclude.html" target="_blank">http://www.cnnitalia.it/2001/DOSSIER/euro/pop.monete/frameset.exclude.html</a>
post #32 of 42
[quote]Originally posted by trick fall:
<strong>

Why exactly are their taxes too high?

</strong><hr></blockquote>

Not so much that their taxes are too high. But if they look at another country and see a different tax structure you can either change that one to match yours or change yours to match the other.

What I read was the complaint that taxes were too low and that the economy in that area was growing too much. Too much for who? The EU or the people who are working? So they wanted a tax increase to be in line with everyone else and slow the groth.
post #33 of 42
Rumors say the Euro notes don't fit in French wallets. This will cause a global economic disruption.
post #34 of 42
[quote]Originally posted by Infinite Void:
<strong>Rumors say the Euro notes don't fit in French wallets. This will cause a global economic disruption.</strong><hr></blockquote>

The French have money?

I though all the Euros were using that super chip card thingy that I saw all over. That was years ago. Don't they all pay be cell phone or something like that? They still use cash?
post #35 of 42
[quote]Originally posted by MacAgent:
<strong>Can someone post a picture of the Euro here?</strong><hr></blockquote>

<a href="http://www.euro.ecb.int/en/section/euro0/specific.html" target="_blank">http://www.euro.ecb.int/en/section/euro0/specific.html</a>

If I had to choose one, I like the italien 1 Euro most.
post #36 of 42
[quote]Originally posted by poor taylor:
<strong>All economic factors aside (because I know nothing about them), the Euro is one gorgeous looking currency. </strong><hr></blockquote>

The euro was designed by some Belgian (not me. Don't even think that), on a
Mac , using illustrator and photoshop. Maybe he enjoyed the watercolour filter sooooo much, he overused it?

The Vatican Euro has the pope's head on it, I heard. LOL.

Damn. It just occured to me that I still haven't got any paper or coin Euro :eek: I should get out more instead of looking at threads about MWSF

BTW, my own bank accounts and savings stuff and such have been in Euro for about two years. Likewise with payments and bills (I choose it that way). For me the transition is quite the non-event. All in all, it is a non-event, but hey they have do report on something on the news.

The major drawback to the Euro now is that prices have gone up by about 7% . That's not nice

I also have to agree with Anders, in that the Euro in itself is pretty much a doorstop. Other things like national souvereignity, taxes, pensions need to be brought in line first. But that's probably too hard for the politicians?
post #37 of 42
[quote]Originally posted by Mediaman:
<strong>
Yes but it is slightly different for us than for most of the countries joining the Euro. Most of the countries joining have (until January) a low value unit of currency i.e. you can buy almost nothing with 1 Franc...

It's a psychological thing</strong><hr></blockquote>

The relative worthlessness of the franc to the pound is a function of the monetary stability England has had relative to France. It has nothing to do with decimalization.

Also, London has been a financial center for centuries now. Abandoning the pound in favor of the Euro may affect this. The U.K. treats the taxation of capital differently than does the continent. If they have to harmonize their taxes in favor of the EU, this competitive advantage will be eroded.
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post #38 of 42
Andrew Sullivan's take:

<a href="http://www.andrewsullivan.com/main_article.php?artnum=20011230&switch=1" target="_blank">Euro-Indifference</a>

The right approach to the European currency


[quote]Wim Duisenberg might be in a lather of excitement, but the introduction of euro notes and coins this New Year's Day should be called what it actually is: a substantive non-event. Economically, the shift means very little. The currencies that still have bits of paper and shards of metal as their real-world incarnation this weekend died a while ago. The francs and pesetas and marks that still exist are living posthumously. What happens as 2002 begins is therefore not a real change, as even the euro-fanatics concede. It's the tidying up of something that has already been decided, in most cases without any genuine democratic input. Think of it as what happens when a couple of giant companies merge. The next thing that happens is the CEOs come up with a new brand name. The name isn't significant as such. It's often as abstract and unworldly as the tedious architectural images on the new euro notes. The euro, in this sense, is the Diageo or Accenture of the merger that was completed a while back by the men in suits. And just as merged companies have to change their letterheads and ads and logos, so Euroland governments are rebranding their currencies to reflect reality. It's all about p.r. and hype.

But that, of course, doesn't mean that the hype won't work to some extent. When Spaniards visit Dublin and use the same notes and coins as they do in Seville, they will surely feel part of the same community in a way they didn't before. When Italians go to Amsterdam, they will feel something similar. This is what physical currencies do. They act on a psychological plane. One of the great achievements of the Anglo-Saxons in pre-modern England was to establish a unified currency and managed by that simple mechanism to shore up their political legitimacy. That's why the Queen is on the British currency and why George Washington is on the dollar bill. Symbols matter in politics. Currencies are a great marketing tool for governments to project the desired image to their shareholders and customers, i.e. you and me.

Beneath the hype, that's surely the point of the entire project. And when you realize that, it becomes easier to see the entire phenomenon with some perspective. This has nothing to do with European "destiny." There is nothing inevitable about it. It may make sense for some smaller countries, and even some bigger ones. Those few living breathing normal Europeans who actually get a thrill out of a transnational identity will have a ball. The majority who don't will worry about price gouging, and counterfeits. The intelligent response, however, is neither Euro-fanaticism nor Euro-skepticism. It's Euro-indifference...<hr></blockquote>
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post #39 of 42
Thread Starter 
[quote]Originally posted by roger_ramjet:
<strong>Andrew Sullivan's take:

<a href="http://www.andrewsullivan.com/main_article.php?artnum=20011230&switch=1" target="_blank">Euro-Indifference</a>

The right approach to the European currency


</strong><hr></blockquote>
i understand the thesis and found it fine, but i dont understand the conclusion : why do we have to be euroindifferent ? I don't see the connexion with what he said before.
Of course : euro already exist, the difference is only that we use the same money, the other is that we can make direct comparison of prize in the whole euroland (considering prize whithout taxes),adn we can travel without changing money (and that's not a minor change indeed)
This is an evidence that the major change is the feeling to be european: but it is an important change that people from different nations that have strugle between them during centuries, think they belong to the same big community : europe.

Sometimes symbol are more important than reality.
post #40 of 42
[quote]Originally posted by powerdoc:
<strong>
Sometimes symbol are more important than reality.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I don't agree. A currency can be an important symbol, yes. But more importantly it's a tool. And unless Europeans want the Euro to become a symbol of an economic fiasco, they'll do well to keep this in mind.

December 31, 2001

Commentary


<a href="http://interactive.wsj.com/archive/retrieve.cgi?id=SB1009747651965217120.djm" target="_blank">The Euro Is Here</a>. (registration required)
Now It Needs to Get Stronger.

By Arthur B. Laffer, founder and chairman of Laffer Associates, an economic research and consulting firm based in San Diego

[quote]For any lesser goal, the missteps, foibles, embarrassments and absolute travesties the euro has suffered during its prolonged birth would have sufficed to terminate the experiment. But no matter how poorly constructed, improperly implemented and badly executed the euro has been at the hands of Europe's bumbling politicians, we all know full well that Nobel laureate Robert Mundell's vision of a common European currency is fundamentally correct.

The euro simply cannot fail. The era of balkanized monopolies spewing heterogeneous paper spray-painted with portraits of the least attractive people known to have ever lived is over. Tomorrow, there is only one European currency. Long live the euro.

By praising the euro I in no way mean to denigrate the dollar. Our Federal Reserve, led during the past two decades by Paul Volcker and Alan Greenspan, has resurrected the dollar from the laughing stock it was in the late 1970s to the best money the world has ever seen. It's now time for the European Central Bank to emulate Messrs. Volcker and Greenspan and do the euro proud. They still have a long way to go.

During the past seven years, the actual and synthetic euro has depreciated by over 33% against the dollar. Global businesses don't like holding assets that depreciate, and to the extent they can, they'll substitute out of the depreciating asset and into appreciating assets. This is what economists call the substitution of monies in demand. In more common parlance it's called "capital flight," "hot money," or a "run on the currency."

Whatever it's given name, businesses sell off a weak currency and buy a strong currency, which only makes the strong currency stronger and the weak currency weaker. This now is the number one problem the euro faces. The euro must become a strong currency on par with the dollar.

The number two problem is best exemplified by ECB Chairman Wim Duisenberg's total disregard for the falling euro and his naively complacent references to stable monetary aggregates and stable European price indices, all the while poo-poohing the falling euro. I'm still at a loss to know what he was doing in the 1970s when we all learned firsthand just how bitter the fruits of devaluation really are.

Europe has been able to get away with a falling currency for the past several years because of the enormous reservoir of demand brought on by currency consolidation. But this consolidation-induced demand won't last forever. It's about time Europe's central bankers straightened up and flew right. They need to jealously protect the value of the euro in all markets including the European goods market, the foreign exchange market and the bond market. A falling value of the euro in any of these markets is a sign of weakness and won't long be tolerated by global market makers. Strong economies don't have weak currencies...<hr></blockquote>

[ 01-07-2002: Message edited by: roger_ramjet ]</p>
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