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New standards to limit Apple iPod volume in Europe - Page 2

post #41 of 104
Quote:
Oh I wish the EU would just piss off and leave me alone.

Now why does that sound like the first line of a poem ?

Oh I wish the EU would just piss off and leave me alone
They're regulating my iPod, my ears and my phone
If you're in Stuttgart, in Milan or Cologne
The EU have your number and know when you're at home
So don't tweak your volume to find a pure tone
Just bugger off out of the Euro Zone


Sorry.
Macs. Then: IIc. IIsi. IIfx. Color Classic. LCII. LCIII. Beige G3 266. G4 450. Now: i7 iMac. 24-inch iMac 2.8GHz. MBP 2GHz. G5 2GHz. iPad 32GB wifi
Tunes: 32GB iPhone 4G. 32GB iPhone 3GS. 32GB...
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Macs. Then: IIc. IIsi. IIfx. Color Classic. LCII. LCIII. Beige G3 266. G4 450. Now: i7 iMac. 24-inch iMac 2.8GHz. MBP 2GHz. G5 2GHz. iPad 32GB wifi
Tunes: 32GB iPhone 4G. 32GB iPhone 3GS. 32GB...
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post #42 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by dasein View Post

They're interfering with natural selection. The last sentence contradicts the first two.
Does this work with politicians as well?

How often does hearing loss kill people?

The problem is that hearing loss is insidious, it's so gradual that people don't notice the loss for a long time, you just get used to it.

Still, I don't recall reading anything about an actual epidemic of hearing loss that were predicted in the early Walkman days, the first Walkman users are probably getting up in age pretty soon anyway, the Walkman brand is 30 years old now.
post #43 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by jackthemac View Post

Now why does that sound like the first line of a poem ?

Oh I wish the EU would just piss off and leave me alone
They're regulating my iPod, my ears and my phone
If you're in Stuttgart, in Milan or Cologne
The EU have your number and know when you're at home
So don't tweak your volume to find a pure tone
Just bugger off out of the Euro Zone


Sorry.



I just imagined you reciting that in a smoky lounge, sitting on a tall stool, wearing a black turtleneck (ala Steve Jobs) and argyle socks.

Brilliant.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #44 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by jackthemac View Post

Now why does that sound like the first line of a poem ?

Oh I wish the EU would just piss off and leave me alone
They're regulating my iPod, my ears and my phone
If you're in Stuttgart, in Milan or Cologne
The EU have your number and know when you're at home
So don't tweak your volume to find a pure tone
Just bugger off out of the Euro Zone


Sorry.


hehe
post #45 of 104
Kinda ironic that the continent of the world's fastest cars would feel a need to protect people from themselves.

What next? A Ferrari that's government-limited to 5mph?
post #46 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by sippincider View Post

Kinda ironic that the continent of the world's fastest cars would feel a need to protect people from themselves.

What next? A Ferrari that's government-limited to 5mph?

Limiters on cars are very likely. I have read of a few remote traffic calming projects.
post #47 of 104
Yes, but the regulation merely controls the default setting of the player. It doesn't say a user can't change that after the fact. Being that most people don't really understand what levels over extended period of time are dangerous I don't see anything wrong with this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by postguru View Post

What we need is LESS government control over what is and is not 'good' for us.
You cannot effectively control how 'loud' someone's MP3 player is, all this will do is lower the user's enjoyment of their music. As someone else pointed out, the volume of music is totally dependent on the music source - unless the manufacturers have some way of measuring the actual decibel level of each song (and also different 'passages' in that song), there is no way this will do anything other than hurt the user experience.
I am a 59 year old recording engineer that played in rock bands for 20 years. I also find that the 'stock' Apple earbuds are not loud enough for me to accurately hear all the types of music that I listen to, so I have purchased very expensive headphones just to get the volume that is required for me to hear the music at a level that where I can 'feel' the emotion. As a recording engineer, I can tell you that there are MANY parts in a song that are very rarely heard by the average user because they require good equipment and a decent volume to hear. These parts are purposely recorded and mixed at a subconscious level - they are intended to add to the 'feel' or 'emotion' of a song without taking away from the primary instrumentation. I like to listen to my music at a level that is just barely enough for me to discern these 'hidden' parts, and to do that usually requires a fairly high volume level.

Now, most of you probably think my eardrums are shot from a lifetime of listening to 'loud' music. In fact, I have recently had a hearing test, and the audiologist was completely shocked that I was still hearing frequencies that supposedly cannot be heard by someone over 30 years of age (our ability to hear higher frequencies like the sizzle of a cymbal naturally declines over our lifetime). My hearing was excellent, even after 45 years of playing in Rock Bands and a lifetime of mixing music at the higher volume levels that I just described. Here is the reason for this:
1). When I played in Rock Bands, I always kept myself positioned at an angle to the speakers - if I felt pain in my ears from the volume, I would position myself or the speakers until the sound level was 'comfortably loud'.
2). Mixing music at a volume high enough to hear the 'subconscious' components of the arrangements DOES NOT mean listening with the volume 'Flat Out'. Again, it is possible to set the volume loud enough to get all the nuances from the music without being 'uncomfortably' loud.
3). Using the right equipment (headphones that can help discern these musical nuances through quality rather than 'brute force' volume).

Determining a decibel level that is damaging vs safe depends on so many unquantifiable factors for each specific case as to make it laughable. The responsibility of determining what is 'too loud' and what is NOT clearly lies with the individual listening to the music. If the music is at a level that actually 'hurts' or is uncomfortable to listen to, then you should be smart enough to back it down a notch. Even if you are intent on listening to the maximum volume possible, that is YOUR prerogative. Each individuals lifestyle is their responsibility. Even though government has gotten as far as dictating that we wear seat belts, motorcycle helmets and bicycle helmets, there are no laws to stop people from pigging out on obviously ridiculous portions of unhealthy foods (resulting in a huge increase of obesity and Type 2 diabetes), smoking cigarettes (no need to detail the negative effects here), excessive drinking, and abuse of prescription drugs.

Unless an individual's irresponsible behavior puts others at risk (such as with second hand smoke, driving under the influence, etc.), then the government has no right to put laws into effect governing that behavior.
post #48 of 104
I'd agree with you IF hearing loss was likely going to lead to death. Unfortunately, in the US people will just rely on taxpayer hand outs to foot the bill.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dasein View Post

They're interfering with natural selection. The last sentence contradicts the first two.
Does this work with politicians as well?
post #49 of 104
The woman in the MacDonald's case was over eighty years old. The coffee was served at a temperature over the legal limit. MacDOnald's received hundred of warnings it was too hot. The elderly lady was a passenger in a parked car, where the lid popped off. She received third degree burns, and spend several days in the hospital.

If I spilled hot coffee on me, I 'd expect to be burnt, but not receive third degree burns and end up in the hospital for days.

The issue is reasonableness. Is it reasonable for Apple to allow you to turn the iPod up to any volume without warning you when you are possibly exceeding safe levels when it has technology that easily allows it to do so?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Would someone really be able to sue Apple for hearing damage due to setting the volume too loud of their own free will and choice?

I suppose if a woman can sue McDonald's for spilling hot coffee on herself and win, anything's possible.
post #50 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by jackthemac View Post

Now why does that sound like the first line of a poem ?

Oh I wish the EU would just piss off and leave me alone
They're regulating my iPod, my ears and my phone
If you're in Stuttgart, in Milan or Cologne
The EU have your number and know when you're at home
So don't tweak your volume to find a pure tone
Just bugger off out of the Euro Zone


Sorry.

Hey, not bad!
post #51 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBell View Post

The woman in the MacDonald's case was over eighty years old. The coffee was served at a temperature over the legal limit. MacDOnald's received hundred of warnings it was too hot. The elderly lady was a passenger in a parked car, where the lid popped off. She received third degree burns, and spend several days in the hospital.

If I spilled hot coffee on me, I 'd expect to be burnt, but not receive third degree burns and end up in the hospital for days.

The issue is reasonableness. Is it reasonable for Apple to allow you to turn the iPod up to any volume without warning you when you are possibly exceeding safe levels when it has technology that easily allows it to do so?

There was no legal limit as to the temperature of coffee served in a restaurant.

Coffee is supposed to be served at 180 degrees Fahrenheit.

My father used to like their coffee because it was hot. I found it strange that someone who takes a paper cup of coffee and puts it between her legs, and then starts the car, isn't surprised that the cup will get squashed, and the coffee will get spilled over themselves. That was what I read had happened.
post #52 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBell View Post

The woman in the MacDonald's case was over eighty years old. The coffee was served at a temperature over the legal limit. MacDOnald's received hundred of warnings it was too hot. The elderly lady was a passenger in a parked car, where the lid popped off. She received third degree burns, and spend several days in the hospital.

If I spilled hot coffee on me, I 'd expect to be burnt, but not receive third degree burns and end up in the hospital for days.

The issue is reasonableness. Is it reasonable for Apple to allow you to turn the iPod up to any volume without warning you when you are possibly exceeding safe levels when it has technology that easily allows it to do so?

Did a McDonald's employee spill the coffee on the woman?

Does Apple force people to listen to music at levels that damage their hearing?

Really, where does personal responsibility end and government/corporate responsibility begin?

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #53 of 104
This is all bull. I expect in a few moths to be told the exact way to wipe my ass by these busybodies. Its like a massive nanny state.

Oh, I'm playing music, hmm, its hurting my ears, maybe I should turn the volume down, why was it so loud, I'm a really stupid I don't know whats going on, oh no, I've gone deaf, if only there was a massive bunch of control freaks out there to limit the volume for me......

Damn control freaks.
post #54 of 104
Currently, the volume options increases with percentage. Like 10% or 80%. Is it possible to show both percentage and the decibels together (top and below the volume bar)? This way, I can get an idea how loud the music really is? Coz the current percentage thing doesn't give an idea about how many decibels we're listening to. Sounds complicated, but is it possible?
post #55 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by irnchriz View Post

This is all bullshit. I expect in a few moths to be told the exact way to wipe my ass by these fucking busybodies. Its like a massive nanny state.

Oh, I'm playing music, hmm, its hurting my ears, maybe I should turn the volume down, why was it so loud, I'm a fucking retard I don't know whats going on, oh no, I've gone deaf, if only there was a massive bunch of poofs out there to limit the volume for me......

This is just like hitler but without the cute little moustache, fucking control freaks. Are we not overdue another world war?

lol
I'm glad there are people out there who get equally irritated by it all.

You know it really is the stupid people who want these regulations. I know a few real dumbasses with zero common sense, and they all believe that the nanny state is a good thing. What really annoys me is that they cannot comprehend that I CAN comprehend what is good or bad for me.
Sheep people.
post #56 of 104
Are people still going on about this? Christ on a surfboard, this has been going on since the inception of the Walkman.

Loud music can cause hearing loss. We know. We get it.
post #57 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by monstrosity View Post

Oh I wish the EU would just piss off and leave me alone.

It irritates me so much I'm actually considering moving.

Just go. Whining about such kind of harmless attempts at educating the kidz, lol... I can understand that it is frightening you/encroaching on your freedom (sic).

Quote:
Originally Posted by sticknick View Post

Are people still going on about this? Christ on a surfboard, this has been going on since the inception of the Walkman.

Loud music can cause hearing loss. We know. We get it.

Hmm, maybe that the kidz do not know what was a Walkman?
post #58 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post


Still, I don't recall reading anything about an actual epidemic of hearing loss that were predicted in the early Walkman days, the first Walkman users are probably getting up in age pretty soon anyway, the Walkman brand is 30 years old now.

Excellent point...watch them ignore it. I'd add I can't imagine how these top down thinkers are ever going to implement something like this that does what they claim. As a person ages, hearing naturally diminishes, requiring higher and higher volume levels. To engineer a solution around a 'normal' person leaves a handicapped one out in the cold....unless it's modifiable, in which case, you didn't accomplish anything after all. I think a better solution would be to require all teenagers to have volume governors implanted in their inner ears.
post #59 of 104
You need them Bose noise cancelling thingys. After trying on some at the store the next time I'm on a flight I would really like to use them.

Too bad you can't take a fast undersea train between the US and Europe (not yet anyway). Eurostar between London and Brussels was impressively quiet. As was for the intercity or something between the Netherlands and to Dusseldorf/ Cologne.

Flying nowadays is quite hazardous, probably mostly for stress reasons (delays, etc.) ... They should actually ban the in-flight headphones, you definitely have to turn that up way too much because of the surrounding noise. They should provide some sort of noise-isolating headphones.

Ah well, cest la vie.

Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

I have some of my own numbers there.

I've got some audio programs for my iPhone, which is really convenient.

When I was flying to and fro to the UK, I measured noise levels on the plane.

One flight where I was at the wing, and at a emergency exit, I measured average noise levels, unweighted at between 90 and 95 db in the bass, and about 85 db in the midrange, while the treble was lower, at about 75 db.

On other flights, I measured about 5 db lower.

But when walking to the rear of the plane, the levels rose to a good 5 db higher than the readings produced from a non exit seat, to about the same.

Those levels are far too high for a 6.25 hour flight there, and the 7.5 hour flight back.

Far too high.

This also means that if someone is listening to a movie or music on the plane, just like when listening on the subway, they have to turn the volume up even further to hear what they are listening to properly, which means that it's WAY too high.

I never use headphones or earbuds on flights, even when I've traveled first class where the noise is somewhat lower, as it is at the front of the plane.
post #60 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

How often does hearing loss kill people?

The problem is that hearing loss is insidious, it's so gradual that people don't notice the loss for a long time, you just get used to it.

Still, I don't recall reading anything about an actual epidemic of hearing loss that were predicted in the early Walkman days, the first Walkman users are probably getting up in age pretty soon anyway, the Walkman brand is 30 years old now.

It's the "discos" that probably were more the culprit. That and aging.
post #61 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by EmC View Post

This is dumb. Put a warning sticker on the headphones. If people can't make this connection on their own tough.

for adults this is certainly true. but what about children. they aren't as smart or careful. and in this day many of them are using music players without mommy or daddy standing next to them the whole time to make them turn down the music

Also, i'm not sure everyone gets what they are talking about. there has been much research about what levels of noise will cause damage over sustained periods. and yes some headphones get that loud. what the EU is trying to do is keep the levels under that red zone. which will protect the ears, likely eliminate the annoying bled out by the guy next to you, and reduce accidents caused by things like music so loud you don't hear the car horn honking when you are walking in front of a moving car cause you didn't look before walking into the cross walk.

really in the end why are folks treating this like such a big ass deal. like everything else, those that don't like it will find a way to hack around it. just like you did the 'att only if you buy an iphone in the us', 'no putting Mac OS X on that Dell netbook' and so on
post #62 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by MissionGrey View Post

People just need to learn, if you listen to it too loud you lose hearing simple concept.

I think we they should do the same thing with the sun, mandatory sunglasses, until you sign a waver.

Most people don't even realise it though. My sister is younger than me and most people would describe her hearing as average (she listens to her iPod in the car loud enough for me to be able to hear songs in the front and distinguish words whilst the radio is on). However, I can hear a wider range of frequencies than her and my hearing is generally better. It doesn't affect her life - for now - but I'm willing to bet that most people listening to loud music on a regular basis assume their hearing is perfect. It will be interesting when the 11 year olds of the ipod age reach 65.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MissionGrey View Post

To anyone on here that has a Zune HD, does it have volume limiting features.
I think there are only sold domestically, so it really doesn't matter, but the question came up talking to some people about this.


No, Zunes are sold in at least 1 European state (the UK).
post #63 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sensi View Post

Just go. Whining about such kind of harmless attempts at educating the kidz, lol... I can understand that it is frightening you/encroaching on your freedom (sic).

I am going. I'm sick of europe.
post #64 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by charlituna View Post

really in the end why are folks treating this like such a big ass deal.

Because it's just yet another example of the nanny state. The big picture is the sum of all these regulations. The fun has been ripped out of society by moral crusaders who think we are all as stupid as they are, and that we are incapable of thinking for ourselves.

Example: Our local park used to have an event where they did stunts with motorcycles and cars once a year for as long as I can remember. Then regulations were bought in so that spectators had to be a maximum distance away. So far away that you couldn't see anything, nobody bothered going, and now it doesn't happen at all.
post #65 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by postguru View Post

NO, I did not know that standard tests only went to 8 KHz.
I took this test specifically to find out if I was still able to hear high frequencies, and the people administering this test were well aware of my intentions (I discussed my history and purpose for taking the test in detail). They gave me the impression that the test did check the higher frequencies because they specifically mentioned that they had never seen someone my age being able to hear the frequencies that I did - but they did not mention an actual number. Since this was given as a 'free' test, I am now curious if this test did indeed only check to 8 KHz. I did pass the test with flying colors, but since this was a free test, I am now afraid they may have mentioned the 'frequency' thing just to butter me up. I am now going to check into this to see exactly what this test proved.
If I find you are correct about the specific test I took, do you know if they do a more extensive test and what kind of test I should be asking for?

Thanks for the input, Joe

Hi Postguru,

Yes a standard hearing test only goes to 8kHz. Some clinical audiometers can test beyond this (to 12 kHz), but what's the point. I realise you would like to know, but there is no clinical advantage in knowing. The human range of hearing is proposed as 20 Hz to 20 kHz. However, most people struggle to hear at frequencies beyond 8 kHz unless they have specifically trained ears - like musicians, sound engineers (like yourself) and some audiophiles.

The reason why audiologists test in the (125Hz if in USA) 250 Hz (Elsewhere) - 8000 Hz range is that this is the range of speech sounds and obviously most relevant as to whether someone has a hearing loss or not. I am not suprised they were amazed at your age not having a noise induced hearing loss (NIHL) - congrats, you are a rarity. They should have given you an audiogram which is a graph of your hearing - google it, it would tell you if you have a loss or not across a range of frequencies. Audiologists use the audiogram as a measure of type and degree of hearing loss, but it is a behavioural test, that result is further confirmed with comparison of other physiological measures that are not behaviourally based - immitance testing and speech discrimination.

A NIHL shows as a characteristic notch at 4kHz in an audiogram, but can be present between 3-6 kHz, at 8kHz a high frequency loss can begin to develop in older people. A notch develops at 2 kHz (Bone Conduction) usually associated with a mixed hearing loss and indicative of otosclerosis - a hardening of the middle ear ossicles. These are just some of the reasons for testing at specific frequencies and not others.

I hope that helps
post #66 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

How often does hearing loss kill people?

The problem is that hearing loss is insidious, it's so gradual that people don't notice the loss for a long time, you just get used to it.

Still, I don't recall reading anything about an actual epidemic of hearing loss that were predicted in the early Walkman days, the first Walkman users are probably getting up in age pretty soon anyway, the Walkman brand is 30 years old now.

Studies on NIHL (noise induced hearing loss) and music players actually began with the walkman era and yes they were/are capable of causing a NIHL. However the saving grace was battery life. This has been held up as the single most significant factor that has contributed to the massive increase in NIHL among teens and young adults, battery life! Players now go for days without recharging, meaning exposure is for longer. At higher levels the TTS or temporary threshold shift after longer exposure becomes a PTS or permanent threshold shift or a NIHL.

Published studies have shown music players recorded with SLM's (sound level meters) at the earpiece at a weighted average dB A of 90 - 120! for periods up to 4-(8) hours, some cases 12 hrs per day, 5 days a week! Published research in audiology. Measured in weighted dB A, exposure looks like this - At 85 dB A - a max of 8 hrs. For every increase of 3 dB (essentially a doubling of loudness), exposure time must half! - to avoid a PTS. dB A is used as a measure of noise as it de-emphasises low and very high frequencies (weighting) and emphasises everything in between making it a very effective measure of noise/music.

The EU is only thinking of how many hearing aids($) they will have to provide in the future for the dumb-ass Gen X's and Gen Y's who are damaging their hearing. If the european nations are anything like Australia (where I am) they have national schemes to provide free hearing aids, once you reach a certain age.

Its all about protecting us from ourselves - how can that be a bad thing?
post #67 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by pmjb View Post

The EU is only thinking of how many hearing aids($) they will have to provide in the future for the dumb-ass Gen X's and Gen Y's who are damaging their hearing.

So they are ALL stupid and cant think for themselves?....

Quote:
Originally Posted by pmjb View Post

Its all about protecting us from ourselves - how can that be a bad thing?

You may need protecting from yourself, but i certainly dont. How dare an authority tell me what I can or cant do to myself. It's my body not yours, not the governments, not the EU's. Mine.

If I want to skewer myself in the eye, thats up to me, but don't ban skewers, as it would ruin everyones barbecues.
Punishing the masses for the actions of a few is wrong.

Should we ban rock climbers? Do they need protecting from themselves?
Should we ban cars? For do they not kill hundreds of people every week?
Should we ban all kitchen knives because someone got stabbed?

Where does it end.

I dunno about you but the thought of walking to work and eating steak with a spoon sounds crap. I'l take the risk thanks, if I'm allowed that is?.
post #68 of 104
This type of stuff really irritates me. Firstly, if people want to deafen themselves, then let them, it's a free country and there is no cure for stupidity. And secondly, sometimes a podcast or audiobook will be be quiet, for whatever reason, so I need to turn the volume up so I can actually hear it above the noise of the train/car/air conditioning etc.

And that some politicial goons in the EU parliament were actually paid to come up with junk like this... boggles the mind.
post #69 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by star-fish View Post


No, Zunes are sold in at least 1 European state (the UK).

No they aren't. The Zune does not exist in the UK in any form. Never has.
post #70 of 104
The ruling applies to the default setting. Nothing more nothing less. Apple currently gives you the option of changing those settings to the ones the EU wants the device shipped with on default.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Undo Redo View Post

You say that like you're sure of it.
post #71 of 104
At last, a market for my black market headphone amp business!
post #72 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by monstrosity View Post

lol
I'm glad there are people out there who get equally irritated by it all.

You know it really is the stupid people who want these regulations. I know a few real dumbasses with zero common sense, and they all believe that the nanny state is a good thing. What really annoys me is that they cannot comprehend that I CAN comprehend what is good or bad for me.
Sheep people.

I have no problem with regulation. The problem i have with the EU is they are an unelected body and accountable to no one. They can now make laws and overrule Governments that have been democratically elected by its people. That's what's irritating me. We're losing our democracy, doesn't that scare the hell out of you?
A reputation is not built upon the restful domain of one's comfort zone; it is made out of stalwart exposition of your core beliefs, for all challenges to disprove them as irrelevant hubris.- Berp...
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A reputation is not built upon the restful domain of one's comfort zone; it is made out of stalwart exposition of your core beliefs, for all challenges to disprove them as irrelevant hubris.- Berp...
Reply
post #73 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by charlituna View Post

for adults this is certainly true. but what about children. they aren't as smart or careful. and in this day many of them are using music players without mommy or daddy standing next to them the whole time to make them turn down the music

Also, i'm not sure everyone gets what they are talking about. there has been much research about what levels of noise will cause damage over sustained periods. and yes some headphones get that loud. what the EU is trying to do is keep the levels under that red zone. which will protect the ears, likely eliminate the annoying bled out by the guy next to you, and reduce accidents caused by things like music so loud you don't hear the car horn honking when you are walking in front of a moving car cause you didn't look before walking into the cross walk.

really in the end why are folks treating this like such a big ass deal. like everything else, those that don't like it will find a way to hack around it. just like you did the 'att only if you buy an iphone in the us', 'no putting Mac OS X on that Dell netbook' and so on

Parents are responsible for educating their children. At least they used to be.

Perhaps the outcry over this is indicative of a larger, more pervasive problem of which this particular issue is only a microcosm: the gradual erosion of personal liberty and responsibility - essential to the existence of any free society.

Today, it's the default volume of a music device. If we're not careful, it could soon be what kind of music you can put on said device.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #74 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Underhill View Post

I have no problem with regulation. The problem i have with the EU is they are an unelected body and accountable to no one. They can now make laws and overrule Governments that have been democratically elected by its people. That's what's irritating me. We're losing our democracy, doesn't that scare the hell out of you?

Damn right it does, the whole thing is a disaster. Unfortunately it's only going to get worse so I'm outta here, I do not wish to bring up my children in europe.
post #75 of 104
NO, but the issue is did MacDonald's act reasonably? If aware of the facts, most people would say no. That is what the law requires MacDonald's to do: act reasonably.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Did a McDonald's employee spill the coffee on the woman?

Does Apple force people to listen to music at levels that damage their hearing?

Really, where does personal responsibility end and government/corporate responsibility begin?
post #76 of 104
You got your facts wrong. The cup was Styrofoam, she was the passenger, and the vehicle was parked. I find it strange that coffee spilled on somebody would give them third degree burns sending them to the hospital for three days. I expect to be burnt if I spill hot coffee on myself, but not sent to the hospital.

Further, MacDonald's manual at the time said 195 to 205 was the proper brewing temperature [perhaps true] and that is should be held at 180 to 190 degrees to serve. Skin burns at 140.

Most places around me serve hot beverages at 155 to 160 degrees.



Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

There was no legal limit as to the temperature of coffee served in a restaurant.

Coffee is supposed to be served at 180 degrees Fahrenheit.

My father used to like their coffee because it was hot. I found it strange that someone who takes a paper cup of coffee and puts it between her legs, and then starts the car, isn't surprised that the cup will get squashed, and the coffee will get spilled over themselves. That was what I read had happened.
post #77 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by nvidia2008 View Post

You need them Bose noise cancelling thingys. After trying on some at the store the next time I'm on a flight I would really like to use them.

Too bad you can't take a fast undersea train between the US and Europe (not yet anyway). Eurostar between London and Brussels was impressively quiet. As was for the intercity or something between the Netherlands and to Dusseldorf/ Cologne.

Flying nowadays is quite hazardous, probably mostly for stress reasons (delays, etc.) ... They should actually ban the in-flight headphones, you definitely have to turn that up way too much because of the surrounding noise. They should provide some sort of noise-isolating headphones.

Ah well, cest la vie.

I'm not a Bose fan in general. There are other companies that make similar products, but I've not had enough interest in buying them. Wearing headphones for 6 to 8 hours at a stretch isn't exactly fun either.

Yeah, the london to Brussels train works, but that's a pretty short route. Try doing that for 3,400 miles while under 5 or more miles of water.

In addition, my daughter, who has investigated London to EU travel now that she's there, tells me that it's actually cheaper to fly most places in the EU from there than to take the train. Go figure!
post #78 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by star-fish View Post


No, Zunes are sold in at least 1 European state (the UK).

You sure about that? MS has said that they aren't sold in Europe at all.
post #79 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by monstrosity View Post

Because it's just yet another example of the nanny state. The big picture is the sum of all these regulations. The fun has been ripped out of society by moral crusaders who think we are all as stupid as they are, and that we are incapable of thinking for ourselves.

Example: Our local park used to have an event where they did stunts with motorcycles and cars once a year for as long as I can remember. Then regulations were bought in so that spectators had to be a maximum distance away. So far away that you couldn't see anything, nobody bothered going, and now it doesn't happen at all.

Why should I have to pay higher insurance rates because people are going to need hearing aids and doctor's visits?

If, somehow, people who did stupid things, like smoking, had to pay much more for medical insurance, I wouldn't mind it as much, as long as I wasn't adversely affected, either in my own, and my family's health. But it doesn't work that way.

Auto insurance forces people who get into accidents to pay higher premiums (or at least they used to, as in some states here they have "no fault", a bad idea).

If you're in a profession that is risky, you pay higher rates.

So people having risky behavior should pay higher rates as well.

Then I wouldn't care.

But we ALL pay for these morons, and so we should care.
post #80 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by monstrosity View Post

So they are ALL stupid and cant think for themselves?....



You may need protecting from yourself, but i certainly dont. How dare an authority tell me what I can or cant do to myself. It's my body not yours, not the governments, not the EU's. Mine.

If I want to skewer myself in the eye, thats up to me, but don't ban skewers, as it would ruin everyones barbecues.
Punishing the masses for the actions of a few is wrong.

Should we ban rock climbers? Do they need protecting from themselves?
Should we ban cars? For do they not kill hundreds of people every week?
Should we ban all kitchen knives because someone got stabbed?

Where does it end.

I dunno about you but the thought of walking to work and eating steak with a spoon sounds crap. I'l take the risk thanks, if I'm allowed that is?.

"The greater good" - to quote from Hot Fuzz - The movie,

Yeah a reckless few always spoil it for others. But hey, NIHL is the greatest preventable disability, so if they can't educate - legislate. Look I have no problem with you wanting to skewer your own eye, but if you do it to someone else then I think we should certainly ban you from using skewers. I was just trying to express why I think the EU is going down this track. My support/non-support is irrelevant.

I think as a parent my job is to educate my children about the dangers of noise and help them to make an enlightened choice, if that doesn't work...... can I borrow a skewer!
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