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Latest Palm Pre update does not re-enable iTunes sync - Page 2

post #41 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by chronster View Post

Yeah, I live in a different world than you LOL. Jeesh. Leave out the condescending rhetoric will you? Apple might just give a RATS ASS because they can still squeeze money out of them.

There are two was of thinking about this. One is your way, where the Apple technology ecosystem works together, but you need all of Apple's products for it to be effective, otherwise you're SOL. The other is simple: If they didn't sell product A, why cut potential customers off from product B? iTunes still makes money. Pre owners are still potential customers. Just because they didn't buy an iphone doesn't mean Apple can't still make money off them with mp3's and videos.

Now, I'm not saying what Apple did was wrong, I just see the potential in the other way. I don't blame Apple, but I don't respect their decision either.



Well I never said that's what they are obligated to do, just trying to point out there's still money to be made.

Look, if itunes compatibility is all it takes to push someone to an iphone, then they really weren't seriously considering the pre to begin with. There's so many more important features that differentiate the two that if someone decides to go with a Pre, more than likely they made their decision long before seeing itunes compatibility.

I'm trying to think of an analogy here, but this is kind of a unique thing to deal with for either company.

So in other words, I don't think iTunes compatibility sells more Pre's for Palm, but I do think it sells more mp3's for Apple.

Man, you sure can't help but flap you mouth-piece here.
post #42 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

... or can you not use Windows Media Player to sync your music to it?

Yes. The Pre can sync using WMP.
You can also 'drag and drop'
And Palm is free to write software to access iTunes XML files.


.... why so many people believe that the the Pre "needs" iTunes so much, beats me.
post #43 of 80
I am amazed at the number of people who are convinced that Palm has a strategy. They did not do this for publicity. They are not buying time for an unfinished sync solution of their own. They actually thought they would get away with not having to write any software for any platform and Apple would not bother with blocking them. They thought they could apply enough pressure with the press to stay Apple's hand. They were, and are fools.

They would never have gone to the USB-IF if they did not fully expect to send Apple packing. There is no skunkworks sync project. Palm simply does not have the talent or the money to build a solution from scratch. They might have enough lawyers on retainer to make a run at it in court. I'm sure their legal team has already relocated to east Texas. If Palm had a plan B, it was that the community would write a sync app for them.

Palm probably had just enough money to produce the Pre. They were hoping to get as much free help as they could get. The Pre isn't selling well and they do not have the resources to divert from pushing the Pixie and trying to get noticed by other carriers. They are as they have been from the start: desperate. They don't have a plan. What you see is what there is. Mark my words, one way or another, this is going to court.
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post #44 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by JupiterOne View Post

Why do you think Pre owners can't buy music and videos from iTunes?

I'm trying to think in terms of the simplest kinds of users and from a business standpoint. In my opinion (and I don't have the marketing data Apple has so I am probably wrong) I think they would sell more mp3's by allowing the Pre to sync. I don't think allowing the Pre to sync puts any kind of significant dent in iphone sales. Making it harder to sync might deter more people from using itunes than anything.

If I were Apple and I couldn't sell them on the iphone, the least I could do is make it as easy as possible for them to give me their money in itunes.

Again, I really don't see any wrong doing here on Apple's part, but my limited business logic tells me it's better the other way. ;P
Quote:
Originally Posted by gimpymw View Post

Yeah.

You and the other Pre owner can go in the corner and cry me a river.

AND STOP JERKING THOSE THINGS!

Riiight, I MUST be a pre owner.

Quote:
Originally Posted by piot View Post

Yes. The Pre can sync using WMP.
You can also 'drag and drop'
And Palm is free to write software to access iTunes XML files.


.... why so many people believe that the the Pre "needs" iTunes so much, beats me.

No kidding. Maybe this block is a good thing as it will force the Pre owners to actually learn how to do some of the most simple tasks you can do on a computer.
post #45 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by gimpymw View Post

Man, you sure can't help but flap you mouth-piece here.

Well, I'm simply trying to convey a point as to why it might be beneficial to leave the compatibility in place.

I don't condone what Palm did in order to make it work btw
post #46 of 80
So, how soon before Palm folds or gets bought out? I'd guess they are on life support with about 6 months to live.

Proud AAPL stock owner.

 

GOA

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Proud AAPL stock owner.

 

GOA

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post #47 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post

So, how soon before Palm folds or gets bought out? I'd guess they are on life support with about 6 months to live.

Kinda sad, because they did come out with some pretty sweet stuff back in the day.

I actually still own and use an old PalmOne Zire 31.

I'd hate to see them go - when there's healthy competition in the free market, the consumers win.

But at this point, it seems Palm isn't competing very well, so it may be a moot point.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #48 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post

Whatever happened to offering us, the users, a way to flag this trash and get these guys knocked off the boards quicker?

Don't you get that little red exclamation point to report spam and abuse and the like? It is on the bottom left near the online/offline indicator...
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post #49 of 80
It seems most of you are missing the point here. Apple would rather you sync your shiny brand new iPhone or iTouch with the media you buy. The margin on those two items is far greater than the media they sell. Plus, if you buy either, you're still going to have to buy your media through iTunes. That's Apple's win-win scenario. And that's Business! If you buy a Pre and sync it with itunes, they lose profit on the iPhone and the iTouch, and make a meager profit on the media. If you were running a business, would you want that?

Also, all it takes is to give one wannabe a nipple and all the rest will come running to suckle on Apple's tit; Nokia, HTC, Motorola; Blackberry. Apple makes a stand against Palm and the rest get the message.
post #50 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by VinitaBoy View Post

@ chronster

"It just sucks that Apple feels the need to alienate pre owners . . . ."

Uh, perhaps it's just me, but why would Apple give a rat's ass what any Pre owner thinks? Didn't that person already "alienate" Apple by purchasing an iPhone competitor, a truly inferior one that does not possess a legitimate iTunes option? Do you REALLY believe that any company should go out of its way to "be nice" to a competitor by enabling its bottom line in this fashion? Such is not the way of the business world I live in. Is it in yours?

Maybe because Pre owner might also be iPod owner, or even (shock) Mac owner.

From my point of view, Palm comes out of this clean and makes Apple look evil. Palm boys can tell their iTunes users "Hey sorry, we tried our best to help you keep using iTunes but Apple doesn't care for you if you don't have everything Apple".

At the end of the day, it really isn't a problem to keep using iTunes to purchase music and sync Pre with WMP (which I prefer to iTunes anyway) or even simple drag'n'drop. I don't think to many people are purchasing music daily, and to run iTunes once a week or even a month, and do everything else from WMP is really not an issue; it is more of PR and marketing crap, but also a thing to annoy users and turn them away from Apple. For example, I might prefer to keep my iPod even if I have Pre, but since Apple is giving me this kind of attitude I would likely decide to get rid of iPod or replace it with non-Apple player, one that will work with same software my phone is working.

Bottom line, between phone/media player and media player only, phone has advantage for me.
post #51 of 80
Seems as if Apple should allow other devices to sync to iTunes. iTunes is what Mac users use to store our music. If we don't choose an iPod or iPhone as our portable and the player's vendor chooses to write software to sync to iTunes, seems that Apple should let them. I'm an Apple fan; but, it seems like Apple is not playing nice, here. Not good for Mac users.
post #52 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post

So, how soon before Palm folds or gets bought out? I'd guess they are on life support with about 6 months to live.

I notice that they raised about $360 million today in a stock offering. That should last them
awhile, but I still think they would love to be acquired.
post #53 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by quinney View Post

I notice that they raised about $360 million today in a stock offering. That should last them
awhile, but I still think they would love to be acquired.

I hope it's a nice premium on top of the current price. Would be nice. I might sound like a traitor, but I do try not to confuse my investing decisions with my consumption decisions -- I had bought a bunch of PALM at $10! Thought it was a better bet than the Pre.
post #54 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by chronster View Post

I'm trying to think in terms of the simplest kinds of users and from a business standpoint. In my opinion (and I don't have the marketing data Apple has so I am probably wrong) I think they would sell more mp3's by allowing the Pre to sync.

The Pre has an Amazon MP3 Store client on the phone.
post #55 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by nikon133 View Post

From my point of view, Palm comes out of this clean and makes Apple look evil.

Unfortunately, that says more about you than either Apple or Palm.
post #56 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by mitchelljd View Post

hey i am laughing at this, it isn't like other devices can't be synced with iTunes, but PALM kinda screwed up in how they are doing it.

If Palm really wants Palm and PALM PRE syncing to itunes. they ought to cut a deal with MARKSPACE for a basic version of MISSING SYNC and do a deal. anything else is just bad pr and silly.

I have been using it for my blackberry and it works great!, dunno what all the silliness is about.

http://www.markspace.com/products/pr...-overview.html

Is that working with iTunes the app or with the open media files and open XML file that iTunes uses for DB and info? There is a difference and the latter is already well utilized by many companies without interference by Apple.
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post #57 of 80
Seems that the further into the water that Palm wades on this issue, the deeper it gets.

They already got reprimanded by the USB-IF, after they fully expected that their hack would get the organization's blessing. The bottomline is that if they want to sync with iTunes, they need to develop their software or driver.

It's not like Apple is denying the Pre access to the XML library files or to the music files themselves. Anyone can drag-and-drop or they can use a different third party application to sync the music files to the phone.

If Pre wants to make things easy for their customers, why not just license a third party media file application and provide it to their customers while they work on their own application? Digital camera makers typically supply a patchwork of their own applications and third party software for photo management and editing. I don't see why Palm has to sell their phones by piggybacking on top of Apple's work.
post #58 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by piot View Post

Unfortunately, that says more about you than either Apple or Palm.

An argument or two from you would be nice, but either way I don't see anything unfortunate there.

Don't forget this is not really about Palm, but about iPod/iTunes users who happen to prefer Pre to iPhone, or must stay with Sprint.

I don't expect Palm to really care - I can't see people buying Pre because of iTunes, especially since there are arguably better ways to sync PC with media player.

On the other hand, trying to help people always look good in PR terms.
post #59 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woochifer View Post

If Pre wants to make things easy for their customers, why not just license a third party media file application and provide it to their customers while they work on their own application?

I'm convinced it is because they don't have the resources to do it. Look at the price of a Pre: the pre mail-in rebate price. You have to pay more up front that you do for an iPhone 3GS. I wonder how much they are making from people who don't redeem their rebate... but I digress. They can't raise the price of the Pre and they can't absorb the loss from paying some third party a licensing fee. They can't just roll their own because that requires talent and money and time. They don't have enough of either.

People are making the mistake of thinking the Pre is a real competitor to the iPhone. They are not even a real competitor to WM. They are doing the best they can and it is far from good enough.
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post #60 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by nikon133 View Post

On the other hand, trying to help people always look good in PR terms.

If you really think Palm is trying to help people and that these maneuvers are making them look good, you need to put the pipe down.
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post #61 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woochifer View Post

If Pre wants to make things easy for their customers, why not just license a third party media file application and provide it to their customers while they work on their own application? Digital camera makers typically supply a patchwork of their own applications and third party software for photo management and editing. I don't see why Palm has to sell their phones by piggybacking on top of Apple's work.

I think the whole you can use iTunes to sync your Pre was a clever marketing ploy to gain free advertising per the rampant media coverage. There are many apps for many phone and PMP vendors that sync with the iTunes XML DB files without fail, expect for when Apple does an occasional update that alters the XML structure to accommodate new iTunes version changes, but correcting for those changes are simple. I have no doubt that Palm knew they would loose out here as the USB-IF rules are quite clear, but anecdotally I know many BB users that didnt know they could sync to iTunes DB files. I feel this has certainly helped get the Palm name out and assist with Pre sales.

Some old clichés that I feel back up my stance on Palms tactics...
Any publicity is good publicity
"There's no such thing as bad publicity
"There is only one thing worse than being talked about and that is NOT being talked about.
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post #62 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by nikon133 View Post

On the other hand, trying to help people always look good in PR terms.

In that case, Apple has been helping other devices. They could have encrypted a file with all your media in it so that only the iTunes app could read the files or, much easier, just used an encrypted iTunes DB file that can only be read by the iTunes app itself so that any and every device could easily parse the simple XML file structure of your collection will all your ratings and other data.
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post #63 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bageljoey View Post

Don't you get that little red exclamation point to report spam and abuse and the like? It is on the bottom left near the online/offline indicator...

Wow thank you! I feel pretty dumb for not recognizing that as the flag post icon. Maybe it should be near all the reply/edit tools? Anyway, thanks!
post #64 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by VinitaBoy View Post

@ chronster

"It just sucks that Apple feels the need to alienate pre owners . . . ."

Uh, perhaps it's just me, but why would Apple give a rat's ass what any Pre owner thinks? Didn't that person already "alienate" Apple by purchasing an iPhone competitor, a truly inferior one that does not possess a legitimate iTunes option? Do you REALLY believe that any company should go out of its way to "be nice" to a competitor by enabling its bottom line in this fashion? Such is not the way of the business world I live in. Is it in yours?

Oh grow up you child and put the Cool Aid down - many Apple customers may want to buy an alternative phone to the iPhone, for a lot of reasons. Not all Mac users are iPhone users and vice versa.

Apple has often bragged about interoperability, in fact AI has done many articles about it, and here we have an example of them abusing their market dominance in a way they, and probably most of us on this board, have accused Microsoft. Personally I'm getting tired of it.

And before you accuse me of something stupid, I have an iPhone, probably had my first Apple computer before you were born, I have a Mac (and, shock-horror a PC too), I have Apple TV and have spent more than $5,000 on iTunes since it was launched. But maybe I'll want a Pre next year and still be able to listen to my music.

As much as I despise Microsoft, at least they license their technology out... you can't even BUY the right to connect to iTunes.

Having said all that, Apple do have the right to block the Pre... but as anyone with any sense knows, have the right to do something doesn't make it right to do so.

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post #65 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zoolook View Post

Oh grow up you child and put the Cool Aid down - many Apple customers may want to buy an alternative phone to the iPhone, for a lot of reasons. Not all Mac users are iPhone users and vice versa.

Apple has often bragged about interoperability, in fact AI has done many articles about it, and here we have an example of them abusing their market dominance in a way they, and probably most of us on this board, have accused Microsoft. Personally I'm getting tired of it.

And before you accuse me of something stupid, I have an iPhone, probably had my first Apple computer before you were born, I have a Mac (and, shock-horror a PC too), I have Apple TV and have spent more than $5,000 on iTunes since it was launched. But maybe I'll want a Pre next year and still be able to listen to my music.

As much as I despise Microsoft, at least they license their technology out... you can't even BUY the right to connect to iTunes.

Having said all that, Apple do have the right to block the Pre... but as anyone with any sense knows, have the right to do something doesn't make it right to do so.

Isn't the Pre interoperable with both Mac and PC? Where's the interoperability problem? Can one not put their iTunes music on the Pre? That is more than they can do with their Zune Pass music is it not?

If I buy an Epson printer and my wife buys a Canon, should Epson make their software interoperable with the Canon printer? What if the Epson software was head and shoulders above everything else on the market? Why should other companies have to write their own software when Epson's is so much better? Doesn't Epson know that I am one of their loyal customers even though I buy other branded printers from time to time? Shouldn't they be fostering my good will by allowing my Canon to work with the superior Epson software?

In the same way the Apple wrote iTunes to sell iDevices, they wrote OS X to sell Macs. Buying a Dell means you do not get all of the advantages of owning OS X. You can sample Safari and QuickTime and even iTunes on your Dell, but you do not get the whole Mac experience. Buy something other that an iDevice and you will not get all of the functionality of iDevice software/hardware integration. You can still use iTunes. You just can't have the seamless sync experience. I honestly do not get why this is so hard to understand.
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post #66 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maestro64 View Post

Some third party software will come out to make it happen. Like markspace did for the original Palm and Trio products, their sync product was far better then what Apple of Palm ever did.

The only reason apple is being pissy about it is due to the fact the people doing this are x-apple employees.

I guarantee you Apple has a much larger reason to do this than just being pissy. The iTunes store and its nice synching capability is one of the great discriminators for iPod, iPhone, etc, versus the competition. There's NO WAY they are going to just give away a major discriminators.

Thompson
post #67 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by quinney View Post

I notice that they raised about $360 million today in a stock offering. That should last them
awhile, but I still think they would love to be acquired.

They may have raised $360 million, but haven't they been operating in the red for some time now? This injection of new money smells like a desperation move. They probably need it to make payroll.

Proud AAPL stock owner.

 

GOA

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Proud AAPL stock owner.

 

GOA

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post #68 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by al_bundy View Post

i say everyone go buy a Pre and then return it for this reason

That wouldn't be a free exercise. You have to sign up for phone & data service with it, and there is probably a non-refundable signup fee of about $30 to do so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post

Whatever happened to offering us, the users, a way to flag this trash and get these guys knocked off the boards quicker?

Quote:
Originally Posted by technohermit View Post

Probably because they were in a non-compete clause to boot.

California doesn't allow non-compete.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JupiterOne View Post

Why do you think Pre owners can't buy music and videos from iTunes?

You're not going to get iTunes video working on Pre.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gimpymw View Post

Yeah.

You and the other Pre owner can go in the corner and cry me a river.

AND STOP JERKING THOSE THINGS!

Stop jerking what things?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bageljoey View Post

Don't you get that little red exclamation point to report spam and abuse and the like? It is on the bottom left near the online/offline indicator...

Quote:
Originally Posted by technohermit View Post

Wow thank you! I feel pretty dumb for not recognizing that as the flag post icon. Maybe it should be near all the reply/edit tools? Anyway, thanks!

It's somewhat obtuse, but then, the icon does make sense once you know what it is. Every icon has a mouse over description.
post #69 of 80
Apple wants to lock people in to the iPod/iTunes ecosystem, which is fair enough. They're also being competitive (or non-competitive depending on how you look at it) by not allowing other manufacturers to sync their products with iTunes directly, only allowing them to use the xml file. This is also fair enough, since it's all business. Competition isn't meant to be nice and doesn't always benefit end users, we can see that since web standards are such a mess right now. It's also why iTunes and Safari suck on Windows and Office stinks on the Mac.

I wonder why Apple even let competitors use the xml file to sync with iTunes though? I doubt they did this purely out of the goodness of their hearts. I'm guessing there must be some rules in place about open-ness, would these extend to the iTunes software itself perhaps. I do think iTunes could stand to be more open in terms of file formats - why can't I play movies from my camera on my phone without encoding them first?

+ a quick question for the extreme Apple supporters: if this was the camera market and Apple was the main player, would you be happy with iPhoto only supporting Apple cameras? Although purely hypothetical (and not a very good comparison) what I am trying to say is that closed systems aren't always great.
post #70 of 80
Finally. Palm should just come up with their own syncing methods and stop leeching off others.
post #71 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by vandil View Post

Cue the Class Action Lawsuit for selling the Pre with the bullet-point promise of iTunes sync in 3.... 2.... 1....

0!!! Palm flopped again!
post #72 of 80
Apple did do enough to get Palm working on the platform, but Palm did treat their users badly.
Software from 1800 or so. Even in the past Palm was lazy, they still are. Try to steal knowledge and effort from others.
Palm - Think different - Work Prehistoric ( with clubs )
post #73 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by _Rick_V_ View Post

Palm is absolutely right: users should have the "freedom and choice" to transfer media to their device

Exactly, I agree 100%. And that's what the XML file is for. And RIM and other device manufacturers seem to agree, seeing as they are using this OFFICIAL channel.
post #74 of 80
The issue is the Pre spoofed an iPod, by feeding misleading information via USB in order to sync.

That is as wrong as someone walking into a bank disguised as someone else and attempting to draw money out.

Other devices are free to use iTunes files but not by disguising themselves as Apple products.

There are alternative methods Palm can make use of.
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post #75 of 80
I don't mind pre owners accessing itunes. In fact, I think it might be good for Apple that pre-owners have access to iTunes to purchase items from it.
However, palm just wants a free lunch. go make your own eco-system!
post #76 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robodude View Post

a quick question for the extreme Apple supporters: if this was the camera market and Apple was the main player, would you be happy with iPhoto only supporting Apple cameras? Although purely hypothetical (and not a very good comparison) what I am trying to say is that closed systems aren't always great.

A worthy question.

Yes. I would be happy if iPhoto syncing became an iCamera exclusive. Understand iPhoto is here, at least in part, because camera makers refused to support the Mac with software that they included for the PC. Like so many great developments on the Mac, it is a result of manufactures leaving Mac users in the cold. Apple had to do the work because no one else would. If Apple makes a camera that is better than everything else out there and provides proprietary software like everyone else, that is perfectly fine with me. By not providing support for the Mac, electronics manufactures may be sealing their own fate.
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post #77 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by nikon133 View Post

An argument or two from you would be nice, but either way I don't see anything unfortunate there.

Quote:
From my point of view, Palm comes out of this clean and makes Apple look evil.

Sure. Palm have been reprimanded by a standards body yet you say they are "clean".

Apple are protecting their business interests. They have done nothing technically, legally or morally wrong yet you say they look "evil".

Quote:
Don't forget this is not really about Palm, but about iPod/iTunes users who happen to prefer Pre to iPhone

If Palm is so concerned with iTunes users why didn't they give them a piece of software that worked?

I just think that it's 'unfortunate' that you choose to employ the current "Apple is Evil" meme. A movement started by a bunch of internet pundits with a vested interest in Apple's competitors who seem to resent and misunderstand the company's success and popularity.

Just my 'point of view'.
post #78 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

I hope it's a nice premium on top of the current price. Would be nice. I might sound like a traitor, but I do try not to confuse my investing decisions with my consumption decisions -- I had bought a bunch of PALM at $10! Thought it was a better bet than the Pre.

So then you're a trader not a traitor.
post #79 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

Last week, Palm said it intends to respond to the USB-IF, noting that it believes consumers should have "freedom and choice" when transferring media to personal devices.

Palm has the freedom to choose to develop their own media syncing application.

Pretty pathetic for the company that pioneered data sync between computer and handheld to be leeching off of another companies work.

Freeloading jerks...
post #80 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zoolook View Post

Apple has often bragged about interoperability, in fact AI has done many articles about it, and here we have an example of them abusing their market dominance in a way they, and probably most of us on this board, have accused Microsoft. Personally I'm getting tired of it.

Apple is interoperable. The iTunes xml file isn't encrypted - indeed there are multiple third party applications that utilize it with no interference from Apple. Palm could do the same if they choose. They are either unwilling or unable to do so. That's not Apple's problem. Why should Apple stand by and let Palm co-opt their work? How is Apple preventing a vendor from stealing from them "abusing market dominance"?!?

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But maybe I'll want a Pre next year and still be able to listen to my music.

Then maybe you should hold Palm accountable for providing you a way to do so. Expecting Apple to carry you for free isn't very reasonable.

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As much as I despise Microsoft, at least they license their technology out... you can't even BUY the right to connect to iTunes.

Really? How many former Plays4Sure "partners" have access to the Zune store? And that's just one example. Talk about myopic vision...

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Having said all that, Apple do have the right to block the Pre... but as anyone with any sense knows, have the right to do something doesn't make it right to do so.

Why isn't it the right thing to do? They are blocking the Pre from lying that it's an iPod and using iTunes. If they want to develop their own syncing software they are certainly able to do so.

The ball is firmly in Palm's court. If you are going to be pissy with anyone, it's Palm - period.
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