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iTunes sync spat between Palm, Apple continues

post #1 of 182
Thread Starter 
The back-and-forth battle between Palm and Apple continues, as the Pre's webOS has been updated to once again sync with iTunes, in spite of a USB-IF statement against the practice.

Palm announced Saturday that webOS 1.2.1 was released, and Sprint customers will receive the update automatically, over the air. It re-enables Palm media sync to work with iTunes 9, and also addresses problems syncing EAS e-mail.

Earlier this week, Palm released webOS 1.2 which featured a number of fixes, but did not re-enable sync with iTunes 9. Earlier in September, when Apple released iTunes 9, it disabled the ability of the Palm Pre to synchronize media with the software.

When sync worked in previous iterations, the Pre identified itself as an Apple iPod via USB. That tactic was frowned upon by the USB Implementers Forum.

Weeks ago, the USB-IF issued a letter in response to a petition from Palm over its dispute with Apple. The non-profit organization that sets standards for the Universal Serial Bus sided with Apple, noting that Palm's tactic of improperly identifying the Pre as an iPod was in violation of the forum's policies. The forum also said that Apple's practice of limiting first-party devices to sync with iTunes was within the rules.

The full list of fixes in webOS 1.2.1, according to Palm, is as follows:

Resolved an issue where after installing the 1.2.0 webOS update some customers running Exchange 2007 could no longer synchronize with their Exchange account for Email, Calendar, Contacts, and Tasks.

Resolves an issue preventing media sync from working with latest version of iTunes (9.0.1).

Media sync now synchronizes photo albums, maintaining the album structure in the Photos app.

Media sync now allows for synchronizing photos without requiring the full-resolution originals. This provides faster display of high-quality full-screen images and enables users to store more photos on the phone.

Resolved an issue where if a user tried to play streaming music or video, the media stream might drop out or have a long delay before starting.

Addresses a security issue encountered by webkit developers. This issue did not impact end users.
post #2 of 182
This doesn't surprise me.
In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.
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In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.
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post #3 of 182
Quote:
Originally Posted by joe in miami View Post

This doesn't surprise me.

It does to me. I never seen a company with so much disregard well as respect for using another company credentials to use with their product. Palm needs to go bankrupt and close it doors forever! They have no more creativity nor originality.
post #4 of 182
Pre to iTunes: You complete me!
post #5 of 182
Quote:
Originally Posted by teckstud View Post

Pre to iTunes: You complete me!

iTunes says to Palm:

"Get your filthy Palms off me! I'm not interested! This is Software Harassment!


Palm to iTunes:


"We were meant to be forever!"
post #6 of 182
Quote:
Originally Posted by LE Studios View Post

It does to me. I never seen a company with so much disregard well as respect for using another company credentials to use with their product. Palm needs to go bankrupt and close it doors forever! They have no more creativity nor originality.

Why doesn't Apple just sue them and get it over with?
post #7 of 182
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

Resolves an issue preventing media sync from working with latest version of iTunes (9.0.1).

I like how they sugar-coated the actual "issue". Perhaps the below is the more proper description:

Re-enabled iPod impersonation to break into iTunes (9.0.1).
post #8 of 182
Quote:
Originally Posted by LE Studios View Post

iTunes says to Palm:

"Get your filthy Palms off me! I'm not interested! This is Software Harassment!


Palm to iTunes:


"I wish I could quit you!"

see revised
post #9 of 182
I started this thread already. Perhaps they can be merged.

My last post stated that Palm was being dishonest when talking about interoperability as Palm Desktop is not exactly open to other devices.
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Apple has no competition. Every commercial product which competes directly with an Apple product gives the distinct impression that, Where it is original, it is not good, and where it is good, it...
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post #10 of 182
If it still identifies itself as an iPod, then Palm are really pushing it now.

However, you're forgetting that, unless Apple removed it, iTunes does sync with SOME 3rd party devices. Maybe Palm gave in and got iTunes to work with it as a Palm and not as an iPod.

Or am I giving Palm too much credit...
post #11 of 182
Quote:
Originally Posted by sflocal View Post

Re-enabled iPod impersonation to break into iTunes (9.0.1).


Poor hardware impersonators- get no respect!
post #12 of 182
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobmarleypeople View Post

If it still identifies itself as an iPod, then Palm are really pushing it now.

However, you're forgetting that, unless Apple removed it, iTunes does sync with SOME 3rd party devices. Maybe Palm gave in and got iTunes to work with it as a Palm and not as an iPod.

Or am I giving Palm too much credit...

Nothing syncs with iTunes. Companies can access the xml data and create their own solutions, but not directly with iTunes.
Apple has no competition. Every commercial product which competes directly with an Apple product gives the distinct impression that, Where it is original, it is not good, and where it is good, it...
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Apple has no competition. Every commercial product which competes directly with an Apple product gives the distinct impression that, Where it is original, it is not good, and where it is good, it...
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post #13 of 182
Jeeze, why can't they just use there own program? Even Sony's Ericsson has its own MP3 transfer application. I mean, unless there trying to get to Mac users, then just make it cross-platform.

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Although I no longer own Apple products like I did before, I'll continue to post my opinions.

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HP Omni 100-5100z, 500GB HDD, 4GB RAM; ASUS Transformer, 16GB, Android 4.0 ICS
Although I no longer own Apple products like I did before, I'll continue to post my opinions.

Reply
post #14 of 182
Apple should have some code that detects the presence of a genuine Apple product over and beyond the USB check.

I will resist the temptation to suggest that then upon finding it isn't attached to a genuine Apple product it does naughty things. Nooo i would never suggest that.
Been using Apple since Apple ][ - Long on AAPL so biased
nMac Pro 6 Core, MacBookPro i7, MacBookPro i5, iPhones 5 and 5s, iPad Air, 2013 Mac mini, SE30, IIFx, Towers; G4 & G3.
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Been using Apple since Apple ][ - Long on AAPL so biased
nMac Pro 6 Core, MacBookPro i7, MacBookPro i5, iPhones 5 and 5s, iPad Air, 2013 Mac mini, SE30, IIFx, Towers; G4 & G3.
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post #15 of 182
Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalclips View Post

Apple should have some code that detects the presence of a genuine Apple product over and beyond the USB check.

I will resist the temptation to suggest that then upon finding it isn't attached to a genuine Apple product it does naughty things. Nooo i would never suggest that.

I'll say it. Apple should totally brick anything that invades its ecosystem. Its like shooting a burglar.
Apple has no competition. Every commercial product which competes directly with an Apple product gives the distinct impression that, Where it is original, it is not good, and where it is good, it...
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Apple has no competition. Every commercial product which competes directly with an Apple product gives the distinct impression that, Where it is original, it is not good, and where it is good, it...
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post #16 of 182
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mac Voyer View Post

I'll say it. Apple should totally brick anything that invades its ecosystem. Its like shooting a burglar.

Thanks, I was hoping someone else would suggest it

How about Apple replaces all the music with Kenny G so the owner destroys their own Palm.
Been using Apple since Apple ][ - Long on AAPL so biased
nMac Pro 6 Core, MacBookPro i7, MacBookPro i5, iPhones 5 and 5s, iPad Air, 2013 Mac mini, SE30, IIFx, Towers; G4 & G3.
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Been using Apple since Apple ][ - Long on AAPL so biased
nMac Pro 6 Core, MacBookPro i7, MacBookPro i5, iPhones 5 and 5s, iPad Air, 2013 Mac mini, SE30, IIFx, Towers; G4 & G3.
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post #17 of 182
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mac Voyer View Post

Nothing syncs with iTunes. Companies can access the xml data and create their own solutions, but not directly with iTunes.

I found this that contradicts your statement
http://support.apple.com/kb/HT2172?viewlocale=en_US

The article hasn't been updated since July 22 2008, so I don't know if the products mentioned work with iTunes 9, but I assume so.
post #18 of 182
How do Palm think this is going to end? Apple probably have legal agreements with their content providers as to the allowable syncing. If they can't stop them technically, they will have no choice but to sue. No choice because of their existing agreements.
post #19 of 182
Frankly, I don't think that this is Apple's worst problem. And why would it, from all I read and hear Palm is running on fumes.

The latest information is that Palm sold just 375,000 Pre's, far from the number needed to break even. Selling them for $49.00 doesn't help either.

The problem will take care of itself.
post #20 of 182
This whole battle seems like a losing proposition for Palm. Imagine if you bought an iphone and every week or couple of weeks it stopped syncing with your media. Eventually it gets fixed, but sooner or later it stops syncing again. This happens over and over. Regardless of who is right and who is wrong, eventually, I'd get tired of this and look for alternate solutions. Even if palm re-enables sync every time, I'd still be pissed if I was a pre user and couldn't get new media onto my phone for a few days or a few weeks every time itunes blocked it. Maybe I"d find some kind of third party software, like the missing sync, or maybe I would go for a new phone. If I went for a new phone, I doubt I'd get the new pre (whatever it was at the time I upgraded), as I know that this hassle is going to continue.
post #21 of 182
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mac Voyer View Post

I'll say it. Apple should totally brick anything that invades its ecosystem. Its like shooting a burglar.

You know it *would* be like "shooting a burglar."

It would be a ridiculous over-reaction that says more about the general nastiness of the shooter than it does the burglar, and often leads to the complete destruction of everything the shooter was trying to defend in the first place.

post #22 of 182
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gazoobee View Post

You know it *would* be like "shooting a burglar."

It would be a ridiculous over-reaction that says more about the general nastiness of the shooter than it does the burglar, and often leads to the complete destruction of everything the shooter was trying to defend in the first place.


You can protect your home and family anyway you like. But if someone breaks into my house, I'm going to shoot the bastard.
Apple has no competition. Every commercial product which competes directly with an Apple product gives the distinct impression that, Where it is original, it is not good, and where it is good, it...
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Apple has no competition. Every commercial product which competes directly with an Apple product gives the distinct impression that, Where it is original, it is not good, and where it is good, it...
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post #23 of 182
Quote:
Originally Posted by LE Studios View Post

It does to me. I never seen a company with so much disregard well as respect for using another company credentials to use with their product. Palm needs to go bankrupt and close it doors forever! They have no more creativity nor originality.

Agreed. Palm has relegated themselves into a sleazy hack of a company.
post #24 of 182
Quote:
Originally Posted by teckstud View Post

Why doesn't Apple just sue them and get it over with?

apple is havin too much fun this way

but really AI is full of it . apple updates itunes all the time and 4th party anyone has to catch up


if A I was correct and there is a real fight between apple/palm then apple would cripple any pre entering its domain flying under a false flag to under the guise that itunes was being hacked .
which it is

but apple would never attack it own itune acc holders .
the pre will come around to iphone when sprint/verizon are allowed to sell the iphone

long f,,,ing posty sorry
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post #25 of 182
I am really amused by all the posts, since everyone (majority) are giving Palm a hard time because it is direct competitor of iPhone and how dare a company use Apple's code to infiltrate the iTunes.
BUt Google Voice which replaces some of the core functions of iPhone, a number of people posting here have called foul on Apple for not approving the apps.

I see no difference from what Google is doing from Palm, except Palm are being very stupid by trying to make Apple look like the bad guy...wait is that not what Google is doing as well.

Hmm double standards! maybe
I actually want Palm Pre to success, so Apple have to innovate a better iPhone for consumers and Google Voice can kiss my ass, I will use Skype.
post #26 of 182
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mac Voyer View Post

You can protect your home and family anyway you like. But if someone breaks into my house, I'm going to shoot the bastard.

It's still an appalling over-reaction that marks you as both a meaner and more inhuman person than the burglar is likely to be.

Personally, I like to think I'm better than the average burglar, not worse.

Let me guess? You're American?
post #27 of 182
lol. You guys are cracking me up!

No, Apple is not contractually bound by "their content providers" to keep music off other devices. lol

It's funny that you take such offense to a very minor hack on an Apple product yet you guys are so proud of your jailbroken iPwone or Touch. Just tell me that none of you have thought about jailbreaking.

I love my ipod and my Macbook. Apple does a great job making excellent products to use inside their ecosystem.

However, I also love my Palm Pre. Why does Apple feel they have to keep other excellent devices from working with their ecosystem? That just plain limits choice and hurts competition and ultimately customer experience.

"No, no! We can't have an alternative dialer or video app on the iPhone!"

"No, no we can't let people access their paid for, DRM free music via the playlists and software they are used to. We don't want to sell them any songs or anything."

Apple is being very petty about this. They are willing to lose the revenue for content that 800,000+ and increasing Palm Pre users would spend on iTunes because Stevie boy is pissed at John Rubinstein for joining Palm and Ed Collagen for turning down the "no hire" pact and hiring Apple employees.

Personally, I don't care if iTunes syncs with my Pre. I have a Nano for music. But it takes Palm an hour to fix every time and show exactly what type of a company Apple is every time they break it.

Who is the petty company here? Apple for sure. Palm is just poking them in the ribs and laughing. As they should.


--- BTW, if Apple were to intentionally brick a Pre they would be sued big time. The only way to do this would be to write some nasty code that wipes the ROM. Big, big lawsuit. And that brings me to another point. You folks say "Apple should just sue Palm." That's fine. And then Apple can quit using Palm intellectual property and you can lose you ringer switch functionality and all of your PIM syncing with your desktops. Yeah, Palm has patents on all that stuff. I didn't see them suing Apple. Maybe they are just a little more willing to compete and a little more consumer friendly. eh?
post #28 of 182
Quote:
Originally Posted by mkral View Post

Imagine if you bought an iphone and every week or couple of weeks it stopped syncing with your media. Eventually it gets fixed, but sooner or later it stops syncing again.

You do realize you don't have to update iTunes the day a patch comes out right? Just like many users haven't upgraded to SL while the 3rd party drivers catch up. This move by palm really surprises me though; are they trying to make enemies?
post #29 of 182
Quote:
Originally Posted by Homie View Post


Who is the petty company here? Apple for sure. Palm is just poking them in the ribs and laughing. As they should.

Palm Fanboy's first post!

If anything, this has become amusing from Apple's standpoint, because Palm now looks like the frighteningly stalker-ish girlfriend/boyfriend that continues to drive by the ex's home in violation of restraining orders.

I didn't really care one way or the other about this situation, and even considered a Pre for a while (though I continue to wonder why Palm doesn't just develop its own software). But now it's become clear that Palm is desperate for attention, especially with the indifference of carriers, and the Pre's modest and rapidly fading footprint in the market. Sort of like that character in reality shows that you know isn't going to win, but is determined to chew up every last minute of screen time with hysterics and manufactured drama before they get voted off.
post #30 of 182
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxhomie View Post

Palm Fanboy's first post!

If anything, this has become amusing from Apple's standpoint, because Palm now looks like the frighteningly stalker-ish girlfriend/boyfriend that continues to drive by the ex's home in violation of restraining orders.

I didn't really care one way or the other about this situation, and even considered a Pre for a while (though I continue to wonder why Palm doesn't just develop its own software). But now it's become clear that Palm is desperate for attention, especially with the indifference of carriers, and the Pre's modest and rapidly fading footprint in the market. Sort of like that character in reality shows that you know isn't going to win, but is determined to chew up every last minute of screen time with hysterics and manufactured drama before they get voted off.

Yep, my first post here. BTW, I have 3 Mac's and we have 5 iPods in the house. Big Palm Fanboy. lol.

"indifference of carriers?" Uh. You're smoking it. In Europe and around the world carriers have been bidding for the Pre. And as soon as an analyst said that Verizon had decided to pass on it a Verizon executive came out and said "no way! We will get it in January!" You clearly don't know what you are talking about.

Yes, I would love to see them adapt Songbird and build an Amazon Mp3 store plug-in. But spending an hour on this every couple of months is not keeping them from doing that. Maybe they are? Who knows.

But Palm does not look like a stalker to me. I think they are getting a good laugh at Apple's expense. I am.
post #31 of 182
I guess that makes the Pre non-USB compliant. I wonder if that means Palm can no longer advertise the Pre as supporting USB or having a USB port.
post #32 of 182
Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalclips View Post

How about Apple replaces all the music with Kenny G so the owner destroys their own Palm.

Best post so far.
post #33 of 182
Quote:
Originally Posted by souliisoul View Post

I am really amused by all the posts, since everyone (majority) are giving Palm a hard time because it is direct competitor of iPhone and how dare a company use Apple's code to infiltrate the iTunes.

This is a very good observation. I was one of the early to complain about Apple denying GV, but I've come around to the conclusion that Apple has somewhat of a point here.
post #34 of 182
Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalclips View Post

Thanks, I was hoping someone else would suggest it

How about Apple replaces all the music with Kenny G so the owner destroys their own Palm.

Brilliant!

All Apple needs to do is to keep breaking the syncing. Palm customers will take care of the rest (complaints, dissatisfaction, etc.)

Palm is already losing with the Pre. It's been a dud so far.
post #35 of 182
Why wouldn't Apple sue Palm over this? Simple. Because they'd lose. Lose big.

Let's face it, Apple has a virtual monopoly over digital music. The hardware, the sync software, and the marketplace.

Given this, it is becoming increasingly difficult for competing products to survive without offering compatibility with the dominant ecosystem that Apple has created. Props to Apple, this is a sign of your success. HOWEVER, let's consider for a moment that Apple is Microsoft and only allows Internet Explorer to function - competitor's browsers are purposely disabled by one method or another. Or even, Apple is Microsoft and they decide to disable any digital media player (yes, even the iPod) aside from their own Zune product. In either of this scenarios, there's no question that Microsoft would be in trouble, so what makes everyone here think that Apple can get away with this forever? I personally see any sort of legal action by Apple against Palm to result in large scale exposure of the anti-competitive nature of the iTunes ecosystem and an eventual disruption of the closed environment that apple (and apparently so many people here) covet so much.

Is Palm without fault? Of course not. Spoofing vendor and device ID's is bad. Bad Palm. But Apple isn't exactly in a good light here either folks..

EDIT: And by the way..calling the Pre a "dud" or "failure" is pretty dumb. Does it measure up to the incredible success of the iPhone? Of course not. No recent product has. However I'm sure most (if not all) of the people here can agree that if there was no iPhone, the Pre is the next best thing. I'd hardly call that a failure.
post #36 of 182
Quote:
Originally Posted by brianb View Post

Why wouldn't Apple sue Palm over this? Simple. Because they'd lose. Lose big.

yeah, right.

Quote:
Let's face it, Apple has a virtual monopoly over digital music. The hardware, the sync software, and the marketplace.

What's your evidence of Apple having a monopoly over digital music? (I don't believe there are any laws against "virtual" monopolies, by the way). Apple does have government sanctioned "monopolies" over their own hardware and software, via patents and copyrights.

Quote:
Is Palm without fault? Of course not. Spoofing vendor and device ID's is bad. Bad Palm.

Exactly.

Quote:
But Apple isn't exactly in a good light here either folks..

Why, because of your sour grapes?
post #37 of 182
OK, you think Jon Rubinstein got to be the CEO because he developed the Pre and said he could get it to sync up with itunes, therefore piggy backing the success of his product on Apples infrastructure,
OR,
Do you think that his success as CEO is dependent on how well he can now utilize itunes, and needs it to sync up to keep his job, and company afloat,
OR
Do you think that Apple has decided to stick its thumb in their former exective's eye by sticking it to him as fast as he can react to this un-negtotiated loophole in something he should have been able to predict,
OR
Do you think he couldn't afford to sell the Pre at its price point with an itunes license?

Bottom line,

This back and forth means his job, and Palms future.
I bet he made all sorts of promises to the board that are now biting him in the butt.

He is in a rough spot.
post #38 of 182
I wonder how Palm markets this.

Palm Pre: Syncs with iTunes. Sometimes.

Whilst I think Apple are being minor douches in intentionally break compatibility, I don't understand why Palm doesn't go the same way as everyone else. Is it so hard to write their own app that reads the iTunes library file?
post #39 of 182
Quote:
Originally Posted by brianb View Post

Why wouldn't Apple sue Palm over this? Simple. Because they'd lose. Lose big.

Let's face it, Apple has a virtual monopoly over digital music. The hardware, the sync software, and the marketplace.

Given this, it is becoming increasingly difficult for competing products to survive without offering compatibility with the dominant ecosystem that Apple has created. Props to Apple, this is a sign of your success. HOWEVER, let's consider for a moment that Apple is Microsoft and only allows Internet Explorer to function - competitor's browsers are purposely disabled by one method or another. Or even, Apple is Microsoft and they decide to disable any digital media player (yes, even the iPod) aside from their own Zune product. In either of this scenarios, there's no question that Microsoft would be in trouble, so what makes everyone here think that Apple can get away with this forever? I personally see any sort of legal action by Apple against Palm to result in large scale exposure of the anti-competitive nature of the iTunes ecosystem and an eventual disruption of the closed environment that apple (and apparently so many people here) covet so much.

Is Palm without fault? Of course not. Spoofing vendor and device ID's is bad. Bad Palm. But Apple isn't exactly in a good light here either folks..

EDIT: And by the way..calling the Pre a "dud" or "failure" is pretty dumb. Does it measure up to the incredible success of the iPhone? Of course not. No recent product has. However I'm sure most (if not all) of the people here can agree that if there was no iPhone, the Pre is the next best thing. I'd hardly call that a failure.

Sorry but using Internet explorer as an example is flawed every way you look at it. IE would disable other browsers that would be anti competition, since internet is not owned by MS. Apple own iTunes and Device ID, which Palm are using. Apple have every right to disable the Palm Pre, since it is using their device ID, which is no no by USB IF. Why don't Palm do what everyone esle does and develop a sync software. No its too easy to do it cheaply and then cry foul.

Sorry mate but Apple are not suing because it would raise awareness to Palm Pre, free publicity at Apple's expense. Noticed all the crying has come from Palm, wonder why.
post #40 of 182
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobmarleypeople View Post

If it still identifies itself as an iPod, then Palm are really pushing it now.

However, you're forgetting that, unless Apple removed it, iTunes does sync with SOME 3rd party devices. Maybe Palm gave in and got iTunes to work with it as a Palm and not as an iPod.

Or am I giving Palm too much credit...

according this article at precentral.net

http://www.precentral.net/how-palm-r...sync-webos-121

the pre now identifies itself as an ipod video:

USB Product ID: 0x1209
USB Vendor ID: 0x05ac (Apple, Inc)
Manufacturer: Apple Inc.

palm is clearly in violation of their usb license, but i don't think there is much the usb board can do about it.
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