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As Apple preps multi-touch mouse, Microsoft shows off its own - Page 2

post #41 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by teckstud View Post

Coming from anonymouse we hold you words with high respect. However if you follow my posts I stated FUNCTION FIRST THEN ADD STYLE not the other way around.

Yes, but not in the post I quoted. I chose to respond to that one, where it was stated that it wasn't supposed to be stylish to emphasize that I believe it is supposed to be stylish. I also don't believe style should be a mere afterthought as, "function first then add style," seems to imply.

However, my choice of what to reply to really has very little to do with you personally in most cases, so it's of little consequence that you may have said something else later, unless it's my intent to contest an entire line of argument. Not everything is about you.
post #42 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by teckstud View Post

I thought Microsoft came up with the 2 button concept- am I missing something?

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post #43 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by floccus View Post

Using a camera and some sort of scanning system to track hand movements isn't multi-touch ...

Actually it is. That's the basis of the Microsoft Table.

Multi-touch refers to the finger part, there are several different types of sensing technology that can be used, cameras among them.

Apple and before them Fingerworks have locked up most of the patents on capacitance based multi-touch surfaces which is why you see Microsoft really pushing the camera based devices since that's all they can legally do really. If you look at these "prototypes" (more like concepts really), only the grey half-cylinder uses capacitance based multi-touch the rest use camera technology.

I would bet that Microsoft would have a really hard time bringing any of these to market, especially the capacitance one and that they are not really "prototypes" at all, but just a few concepts they've been throwing around. They just want to prove that "they have ideas too dammit!" on the eve of Apple introducing a really cool multi-touch mouse that they *wish* they had invented, but didn't.
post #44 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by macmondo View Post

as I just wrote in my post a few minutes earlier, look at the Zune!

I personally think that the Zune looks good. I don't think it looks like a prototype product. Have you used a Zune? If not, I suggest playing with it first. If you have, then I'll respect your opinion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hzc View Post

(...) I do love the way it scrolls and would not go back to a regular wheel mouse. Apple has needed to address the malfunctions caused by dirt/grease/whatever getting into the scroll ball mechanism, and they have now done so. I will buy the new mouse as soon as it is available.

None of us have seen the mouse yet, if it even exists. I would suggest waiting a little while for reviews, for you to go into the Apple store and playing with the device for 30 minutes or so before purchasing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shintocam View Post

It's too bad that AI did not link or reference the Gizmodo coverage of this http://gizmodo.com/5374224/the-futur...f-there-is-one because actually - the MS multitouch mouse is actually quite cool as you can see from the video.

Thanks for posting that! The Cap Mouse seems like the next step in mice (as opposed to the other devices). I like the idea of using gestures (the one part I like of the iPod Touch) but I hate using a trackpad. Now if the device would have the physical Right and Left buttons, that would make my day.
Also, the images are by far better than what AI found on Engaget.
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post #45 of 103
I think the reason everyone seems to praise the original MS mouse design is because it is simple and it works. (Personally I use Logitech but it is the same design mostly)

My concern with the proposed new multitouch mice concepts including Apple's is that unintended control signals might be accidentally issued just moving around the mouse. It seems that one would have to very careful not to touch the surface at all unless interacting with the interface.

I find that I am constantly moving the mouse around just as a pointer, sort of like giving a presentation or just pondering a design layout. On my MBP track pad I often accidently move the mouse position and I think the same might be true of a multitouch mouse.

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post #46 of 103
Apple has failed with all of their mice except the first one on the original macintosh. Any mouse they produce will remain in the crapware category (for me) until they prove otherwise.

Microsoft, on the other hand, has done quite well with their mice. I'm a MS and Logitech fan, they do mice well. I use them on both Windows and OS X and am quite happy to toss any Apple mouse in the donation bin for charity.
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post #47 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post

Yes, but not in the post I quoted. I chose to respond to that one, where it was stated that it wasn't supposed to be stylish to emphasize that I believe it is supposed to be stylish. I also don't believe style should be a mere afterthought as, "function first then add style," seems to imply.

However, my choice of what to reply to really has very little to do with you personally in most cases, so it's of little consequence that you may have said something else later, unless it's my intent to contest an entire line of argument. Not everything is about you.

You do go on- don't you?? We sometimes refer to that as diarrhea of the mouth where I come from.
post #48 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bengt77 View Post

Wikipedia thinks you are.


Addendum for those that take everything so literally:

Quote:
I thought Microsoft utilized the 2 button concept before Apple - am I missing something?
post #49 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by teckstud View Post

I thought Microsoft came up with the 2 button concept- am I missing something?

Laughable. Yes, you are missing something. For example:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:SmakyMouseAG.jpeg
Many multi-button mice were around before Microsoft started licensing designs.
But it is true that MS advocated multi-button mice long before Apple. Apple rejected the multi-button mouse as too complicated for typical users, but they were exposed to them at Xerox PARC and considered their use.
post #50 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by camroidv27 View Post

I personally think that the Zune looks good. I don't think it looks like a prototype product. Have you used a Zune? If not, I suggest playing with it first. If you have, then I'll respect your opinion.

excuse me? I said it looked like a prototype, I didn't mention usability. My opinion was about the ugly looks of that brown Zune.

And about the MS mouse. Using it with macs it's quite annoying when returning from sleep mode the MS mouse doesn't come back to life. I have to disconnect and reconnect its USB cable to bring it back to work.
post #51 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by DESuserIGN View Post

Laughable. Yes, you are missing something. For example:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:SmakyMouseAG.jpeg
Many multi-button mice were around before Microsoft started licensing designs.
But it is true that MS advocated multi-button mice long before Apple. Apple rejected the multi-button mouse as too complicated for typical users, but they were exposed to them at Xerox PARC and considered their use.

I changed the post!!! Re-read it pleez. Must you take everything so literal?

Quote:
I thought Microsoft utilized the 2 button concept before Apple - am I missing something?
post #52 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by BuzDots View Post

...Balmer: "Wait, me too"

Don't forget to send a dollar to Douglas Engelbart,true inventor of the mouse in 1983!
(Great Grandad Engelbert changed his name in the early 1900s because of a divorce from the Neumann family
out of New Ulm MN)
post #53 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by macmondo View Post

excuse me? I said it looked like a prototype, I didn't mention usability. My opinion was about the ugly looks of that brown Zune.

And about the MS mouse. Using it with macs it's quite annoying when returning from sleep mode the MS mouse doesn't come back to life. I have to disconnect and reconnect its USB cable to bring it back to work.

I've tried playing with a ZuneHD but it's been sold out at Best Buy for like 3 weeks now. Even their floor model has been taken!
post #54 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by iLLucionist View Post

Unbelievable...I think the original Douglas Engelbert's mouse was even more stylish.. what a piece of ugly junk.

I didn't realize prototypes had to be elegant in design...
post #55 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by iReality85 View Post

I didn't realize prototypes had to be elegant in design...

Does anyone remember the Protopipe, beside me and Al Gore?
post #56 of 103
yes Apple please get your act into gear and release a decent mouse, needs a touch surface that will give me trackball like functionality, a clever solution to prevent my fingertips getting irritated by constant repeated surface movement, support for gestures etc etc.

this needs to be quick as the bearings that support the ball on my present optical trackball mouse are shot. this device is terrific and has been in constant use for maybe 6 years. super comfortable, accurate, no RSI, discontinued. Oh yes, I forgot to mention that it was made by Microsoft!

http://my.galagzee.com/wp-content/up...llexplorer.jpg

post #57 of 103
They look like the few pieces one is left with when assembling MS's multi-touch table, "The Surface"...

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post #58 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by teckstud View Post

Wrong - it has to be fuctional first and formost THEN add the stylishness.
Apple's mice have never been well liked, reviewed, or remembered yet they're VERY stylish.

Not true. Most people never replace the mouse they got with their computer unless it breaksdown.

Most reviews on Apple's mouses (yes that is correct) are neutral. Main complaint for years was lack of 'multi' button. However, I still walk into classes and business and see a lot of single clicking and folks typing like crazy then picking up their mouse to print.

As for 'remembered'? You just have to look at all these blogs. Seems that nobody has ever forgotten.

I am glad Apple spends more on research and innovation then on a $50 mouse. I personally have 4 on my desk right now. Only use one. It has been a favorite for a couple of years now. It is a Logitech MX. Great a tracking (Darkfield Laser Tracing) on virtually any surface, even glass. Got rid of the mouse pad. It fits my hand perfectly. But my wife hates it because she finds it too big for her hands. My son, well, it is not a 'gamer' for him.

In addition, I have a couple of 'traveling' mouse on standby. A Griffin Power Mate for editing video/audio (http://www.griffintechnology.com/products/powermate)

One of my colleagues in the computer lab won't buy a wireless for the life of him. Needs to have it tethered, otherwise, he would never find it.

Based on the comments coming out, there is no consensus on the 'perfect' mouse. Even the 'experts' can't agree.

There is no mouse, glove, shoe, hat, toilet seat, etc., that fits all. Otherwise, we would all be a-holes.

But we have a lot of choices. Some make money. But most die on the vine.

P.S., If you ask any salesperson in larger computer shops, invariably the one item that takes the most time for a customer to select and buy is a mouse. And the more that they display, the longer it takes to make the decision. Unfortunately, as Consumer's Report has recommended, there are few places that will allow you to try out a mouse for a couple of weeks.

http://www.3dconnexion.com/spp/index.php
http://www.3dconnexion.com/
http://www.ergoware.com/blog/coolest...e-market-today
http://www.logitech.com/index.cfm/mi.../3443&cl=us,en
http://www.fabstuff.net/products/664
post #59 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by teckstud View Post

You do go on- don't you?? We sometimes refer to that as diarrhea of the mouth where I come from.

No doubt they are many other quaintly colorful expressions where you come from, like schmuck.
post #60 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by Abster2core View Post

Not true. Most people never replace the mouse they got with their computer unless it breaksdown.

Most reviews on Apple's mouses (yes that is correct) are neutral. Main complaint for years was lack of 'multi' button. However, I still walk into classes and business and see a lot of single clicking and folks typing like crazy then picking up their mouse to print.

As for 'remembered'? You just have to look at all these blogs. Seems that nobody has ever forgotten.

I am glad Apple spends more on research and innovation then on a $50 mouse. I personally have 4 on my desk right now. Only use one. It has been a favorite for a couple of years now. It is a Logitech MX. Great a tracking (Darkfield Laser Tracing) on virtually any surface, even glass. Got rid of the mouse pad. It fits my hand perfectly. But my wife hates it because she finds it too big for her hands. My son, well, it is not a 'gamer' for him.

In addition, I have a couple of 'traveling' mouse on standby. A Griffin Power Mate for editing video/audio (http://www.griffintechnology.com/products/powermate)

One of my colleagues in the computer lab won't buy a wireless for the life of him. Needs to have it tethered, otherwise, he would never find it.

Based on the comments coming out, there is no consensus on the 'perfect' mouse. Even the 'experts' can't agree.

There is no mouse, glove, shoe, hat, toilet seat, etc., that fits all. Otherwise, we would all be a-holes.

But we have a lot of choices. Some make money. But most die on the vine.

http://www.3dconnexion.com/spp/index.php
http://www.3dconnexion.com/
http://www.ergoware.com/blog/coolest...e-market-today
http://www.logitech.com/index.cfm/mi.../3443&cl=us,en
http://www.fabstuff.net/products/664

Did you ever use the egg shell iMac hockey puck design mouse that Apple had when it came out? Awful!! Absolutely worthless! It's stashed in a drawer in my desk... Stylish maybe, worst "feel in the palm of one's hand", though.

And the mighty mouse... too sensitive, every session on my computer, I have to watch the widget screen pop up or expose whip away my open windows all because I needed to move my mouse.

Apple may have neutral reviews on their mice, but that's because they are not worth writing about. Apple gets too artsy fartsy with them for my taste and seems to place form over function when creating them! One day, I hope Apple has a worthwhile product.

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post #61 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by teckstud View Post

You do go on- don't you?? We sometimes refer to that as diarrhea of the mouth where I come from.

And the pot officially calls the kettle black.

I think you got the verbal diarrhoea market pretty much sewn up teckdude.
post #62 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by NeilM View Post

It's amusing that, once again, defensive MS feels the need to show vapourware as some kind of attempted counter to anyone else having a good idea.

That's EXACTLY what I was gonna say. . Geez, they must be REALLY shakin' in dem boots. I wonder if they realize how sad and obvious it is.
post #63 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gazoobee View Post

And the pot officially calls the kettle black.

I think you got the verbal diarrhoea market pretty much sewn up teckdude.

You can tell a person from their spelling, Teckstud is from US/American English speaking country (diarrhea) and Gazoobee is from UK English speaking country, since he spells the same word with o (diarrhoea).
Both have something in common, wonder what that is
post #64 of 103
MeTooSoft reminds me of one of your friend's little brothers when you were growing up - always tagging along asking, "Hey, hey, can I come. Can I play, too. Huh? Huh? Come on guys!"
post #65 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gazoobee View Post

And the pot officially calls the kettle black.

I think you got the verbal diarrhoea market pretty much sewn up teckdude.

And who asked for your two pence's worth?
post #66 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rot'nApple View Post

Did you ever use the egg shell iMac hockey puck design mouse that Apple had when it came out? Awful!! Absolutely worthless! It's stashed in a drawer in my desk... Stylish maybe, worst "feel in the palm of one's hand", though.

And the mighty mouse... too sensitive, every session on my computer, I have to watch the widget screen pop up or expose whip away my open windows all because I needed to move my mouse.

Apple may have neutral reviews on their mice, but that's because they are not worth writing about. Apple gets too artsy fartsy with them for my taste and seems to place form over function when creating them! One day, I hope Apple has a worthwhile product.

I never use one. I never bought an iMac for myself. My wife and son have used both. Never heard them complain.

I just called colleague of mine that services one of our largest school boards in the area and asked him how many mouses have they bought in the past 5 years. Answer, "Can't remember. We use the mouse that comes with the computer. In fact some of them are more than ten years old, and if we need to, we buy the cheapest one available."

Since I got my Logitech MX two years ago, I have bought 2 MacBook Pros and 2 iMacs. I have plans to buy another MacBook Pro within the next 4 months. My Logitech will have continue to be on my desktop next to my short Apple keyboard and infront of my 28" monitor. It just fits perfectly.
post #67 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by souliisoul View Post

You can tell a person from their spelling, Teckstud is from US/American English speaking country (diarrhea) and Gazoobee is from UK English speaking country, since he spells the same word with o (diarrhoea).
Both have something in common, wonder what that is

Both know how to spell "the runs" in their respective dialects, my friend
post #68 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by teckstud View Post

Both know how to spell "the runs" in their respective dialects, my friend

Both love Apple Mac
post #69 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by macmondo View Post

excuse me? I said it looked like a prototype, I didn't mention usability. My opinion was about the ugly looks of that brown Zune.

And for me, I value usability over aesthetics (I think the thing has to be designed well enough, which I think the Zune is. It works well too. Nothing amazing or jaw dropping, but it definitely works well!) and is one of the reasons I stay AWAY from Apple's computers (they are too underpowered for what they look like!)

Quote:
Originally Posted by macmondo View Post

And about the MS mouse. Using it with macs it's quite annoying when returning from sleep mode the MS mouse doesn't come back to life. I have to disconnect and reconnect its USB cable to bring it back to work.

I found that regardless of brand, if one has a mouse plugged into a cheap un-powered USB hub that is plugged into a Mac (or computer running Mac OS X), when the machine comes out of sleep, the mouse will not respond. I suggest trying to plug the mouse into a USB port on the machine itself. Of course, you may have that done already, and in that case I would give MS a call, or bring your Mac into an Apple Store for help. (Oddly, I've never had the issue with Windows or Linux)
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post #70 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by souliisoul View Post

Both love Apple Mac

very good
Have we determined why Vonage app never made the front page of topics yet MS mouse prototypes have?
post #71 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by JupiterOne View Post

Do you mean this AI article? Or do you mean a review?

Why no posts on it and why not a thread?
post #72 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roc Ingersol View Post

I've been starting to wonder if this is going to become their standard press move: the press whips itself into a fury about a possible Apple product, so Microsoft points people toward a similar research idea they toyed with and discarded years ago.

I'm not sure what the up-side is for Microsoft though. Do they really want to draw attention to the fact that they spend ungodly amounts of money on very interesting research yet their business proper is consistently incapable of turning those ideas and prototypes into quality products?

...

Communications takes it as an opportunity to get the corporate name into the media while attempting to link the company brand with innovation into the gullible mind. Marketing wants to derail the competition's recent marketing impetus. Operations wants to forestall purchases of competitor products and buy time. Like spiteful politics, it is somewhat effective, though not in the consumer's best interest.
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post #73 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by teckstud View Post

very good
Have we determined why Vonage app never made the front page of topics yet MS mouse prototypes have?

Look at the front page about Skype approval (maybe) by AT&T on iPhone!
post #74 of 103
The only problem I have with the Mighty Mouse is the scroll wheel/ball. Apple should replace it with a touch area/button instead of physical wheel/ball.
post #75 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by camroidv27 View Post

And for me, I value usability over aesthetics

we started at the point that those prototypes in the picture looks so ugly. Then some told, yes but prototypes don't necessarely have to look as the final product. Then I said that actually there was a product that was not prototype and looks as ugly as these, the Zune.
I didn't want to start discussions about the usability of the Zune...


Quote:
Originally Posted by camroidv27 View Post

I found that regardless of brand, if one has a mouse plugged into a cheap un-powered USB hub that is plugged into a Mac (or computer running Mac OS X), when the machine comes out of sleep, the mouse will not respond. I suggest trying to plug the mouse into a USB port on the machine itself. Of course, you may have that done already, and in that case I would give MS a call, or bring your Mac into an Apple Store for help. (Oddly, I've never had the issue with Windows or Linux)

sorry, but you're totally wrong. Right now I'm using a cheap Logitech RX250 mouse plugged into an old apple extended keyboard (that came with a PM G4 many years ago). And even the keyboard isn't plugged directly to my MBP, but to a simple USB-hub that goes to the mac. And the computer comes out of sleep 10-20 times a day and I've never had this problem.
I only experienced it in our office where my colegue has been using a MS mouse that showed this issue. When I asked him to replace it to any other brand, since that it just worked fine.

So I don't think it's regardless of brand.
post #76 of 103
I just don't 'get' the concept of a multi-touch mouse.

So I've got a hunk of plastic that I move around on my desk, and I'm supposed to move my fingers around on top of it, too? What? That's stupid.
post #77 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by FuturePastNow View Post

I just don't 'get' the concept of a multi-touch mouse.

So I've got a hunk of plastic that I move around on my desk, and I'm supposed to move my fingers around on top of it, too? What? That's stupid.

Right? Just give me a laptop square glass pad. That's all you need.
post #78 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by teckstud View Post

Right? Just give me a laptop square glass pad. That's all you need.

That is what I want, too. Replace the number pad on the keyboard (sorry, lefties).
post #79 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by teckstud View Post

I thought Microsoft utilized the 2 button concept before Apple - am I missing something?

Apple has supported multi-button mice forever in its api's. So "power users" have had the option to purchase a third party mouse and take advantage of it in essentially all software including software from Apple (I had a two button optical mouse for my Mac Plus in 1987). But from a design standpoint Apple (or more specifically Steve Jobs) was adamant about avoiding any unnecessary complication for the majority of computer users who really object to complexity being the norm. So all Macs come with a single button mouse which means most programmers design their apps so they are easily usable without requiring a multi-button mouse.

As multi-touch interfaces start to spread far and wide it seems possible that Jobs was right that multi-button mice were a dead end. Maybe in a year or so this will be clearer.
post #80 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by FuturePastNow View Post

That is what I want, too. Replace the number pad on the keyboard (sorry, lefties).

Why stop there? Replace the whole keyboard with a virtual keyboard/trackpad/custom input layout. Lefties and everyone else can reconfigure as desired.
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