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The Bible --- Too liberal For Some - Page 4

post #121 of 346
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

That only becomes a true statement if you believe that Odin and Thimat were indeed gods.

Only the contrary. I don't believe they were gods, any more than I believe that the god of Abraham is a god.

It's still perfectly clear that god changes when people do. People invent the gods they need. And you have to be very comfortable before you deserve a god with good manners.
post #122 of 346
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

So you are saying that God changes because people change?

I don't know anything about God - although I do believe in something 'other' for want of a better word - but taking the character of God as described in the collected texts of the Bible...yes, this individual does change, learn and do many things. This is explicitly stated in very many places.

In one place He even 'repents' which is an interesting turn of phrase but on many other occasions He changes His mind in reaction to events and is able to cease certain courses of action at the behest of various prophets...


Of course. People are complex, and so are their positions.

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That would be limiting God, would it not?

Yes...of course. But I did not say I accepted the notion of an 'un-limited' God - I tend to think He might be. My argument is against the Christian position which is that God IS unlimited.

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In your interpretation perhaps.

In as far as I speak English - I won't quote the passage. Life is too short. We have bigger fish to fry.


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And so the age old argument goes. If God doesn't work the way I think he should he is evil and must be destroyed. Freely given love makes a being evil. That makes perfect sense.

Not really, any position is possible - it just must be coherent.

You could believe the earth is flat or round for example. Up to you.

What you cannot do is believe it is both if they are mutually exclusive. The theological position of free will is not possible within other elements of Christian dogma.

Christianity is riddled with this sort of thing - it is almost a conglomeration of superstition.

Another one: Catholics (I am not accusing you of being one or assuming you are - don't leave the launch pad over this one) believe Mary was a Virgin when she bore Christ. Fair enough.

You say tomato...BUT the Bible clearly says she conceived other children in the normal manner. So, afterwards...well, you get the picture..no longer intactica. But they still claim she is a virgin.

Mutually exclusive.

So don't wheel out the 'old argument' chestnut. Get your ducks in a row by all means - but let's make sure they are actually ducks first..

Not that it matters really, they are in the crosshairs whatever they are and soon will be finding out themselves the big questions of the hereafter - if you follow my analogy hahah.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #123 of 346
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

I don't know anything about God - although I do believe in something 'other' for want of a better word - but taking the character of God as described in the collected texts of the Bible...yes, this individual does change, learn and do many things. This is explicitly stated in very many places.

In one place He even 'repents' which is an interesting turn of phrase but on many other occasions He changes His mind in reaction to events and is able to cease certain courses of action at the behest of various prophets...

Ok, well my argument is not so much about fully understanding God (or whatever name you associate with who I label God). It is more about fully understanding the love that he holds for everyone. Not just the "good Christians" of the world.

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Of course. People are complex, and so are their positions.

That sounds like an echo...

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Yes...of course. But I did not say I accepted the notion of an 'un-limited' God - I tend to think He might be. My argument is against the Christian position which is that God IS unlimited.

Po-tay-to, Po-tah-to. Once again, I don't claim to fully understand God.

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In as far as I speak English - I won't quote the passage. Life is too short. We have bigger fish to fry.

But it even goes deeper than that, God loves his creation and so he made a way in for all who want in. The cost of admission is simply to accept that the price was paid.
He did not limit anything. He provided 1 solution that everyone has access to. The only one who knows whether anyone accepted it is God and the person that accepted. Nothing more to say here really.

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Not really, any position is possible - it just must be coherent.

You could believe the earth is flat or round for example. Up to you.

What you cannot do is believe it is both if they are mutually exclusive. The theological position of free will is not possible within other elements of Christian dogma.

Christianity is riddled with this sort of thing - it is almost a conglomeration of superstition.

Ok, I'll bite, where does free will fail against other parts of Christian belief?

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Another one: Catholics (I am not accusing you of being one or assuming you are - don't leave the launch pad over this one) believe Mary was a Virgin when she bore Christ. Fair enough.

You say tomato...BUT the Bible clearly says she conceived other children in the normal manner. So, afterwards...well, you get the picture..no longer intactica. But they still claim she is a virgin.

Mutually exclusive.

She had other children normally after the birth of Jesus, so she did not remain a virgin. Where is the problem here? And no, I am not a Catholic, and I was/am not offended that you used that word at all. However, their claim of her remaining a virgin (do they really claim that?) is not biblically based. She was a virgin and remained so up until the birth of Jesus (Joseph purposely had no relations with her until the birth), and she is no longer. So your point is?

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So don't wheel out the 'old argument' chestnut. Get your ducks in a row by all means - but let's make sure they are actually ducks first..

Not that it matters really, they are in the crosshairs whatever they are and soon will be finding out themselves the big questions of the hereafter - if you follow my analogy hahah.

Quack!
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #124 of 346
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

That is fine, so long as you don't believe that I have think the way you do. I hope you figure it out before you die. Especially since you want to know. If you do, let me know what you figure out, I want to know what you come up with.

............. Why?
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #125 of 346
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

............. Why?

Because I don't claim to have a monopoly on truth about God.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #126 of 346
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo View Post

Only the contrary. I don't believe they were gods, any more than I believe that the god of Abraham is a god.

It's still perfectly clear that god changes when people do. People invent the gods they need. And you have to be very comfortable before you deserve a god with good manners.

I agree that we disagree on parts of this point. Inasmuch as God is seen through different filters through different times is absolutely true. But that does not mean that God has changed.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #127 of 346
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

Ok, well my argument is not so much about fully understanding God (or whatever name you associate with who I label God). It is more about fully understanding the love that he holds for everyone. Not just the "good Christians" of the world.

You have to know God to know whether He is loving or not surely? Unless you just believe what people say about Him willy-nilly.

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That sounds like an echo...

Heh...in the Middle East the carpet weavers were capable of making a perfect rug but they always had to include a deliberate mistake as only God is perfect.

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Po-tay-to, Po-tah-to. Once again, I don't claim to fully understand God.

Glad to hear it - I was beginning to worry. But we are not talking about God - we are talking about the inadequacies of what people believe about God.

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But it even goes deeper than that, God loves his creation and so he made a way in for all who want in. The cost of admission is simply to accept that the price was paid.
He did not limit anything. He provided 1 solution that everyone has access to. The only one who knows whether anyone accepted it is God and the person that accepted. Nothing more to say here really.

In some ways there is so much more...but you are right also, there isn't much you can follow that with.

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Ok, I'll bite, where does free will fail against other parts of Christian belief?

Well, I would start such an examination at the very beginning and trace it from there.

Start with the tree in the garden. God commands them not to eat of it... The first problem is with the command; nowhere does He say "use your free will" or even "you are free to do A or B and these are the consequences of each". He rather HAS to command. The purpose of the command is to prevent.

Further, it seems He does not know that they will eat the fruit...He has to ask who told them they were naked later on. But even if HE did know then why put them in this place? He could remove the tree (small price to pay for the damnation of billions and billions of souls - which He surely could foresee). There is no reason why they needed to be in the Garden. He could have made another one even. A treeless one. Or why make the tree in the first place?

And on it goes....betting with the Devil over Job (a very interesting interaction actually - God and the Devil are here shown as partners) with an unknown outcome.

The God of the Bible is, in short, an interventionist God (well, one of the Gods depicted there is - there are several different "Gods" in the Bible with differing names and different characters) and an interventionist God intervenes because He does not like the way things are going.

This is contradictory to the doctrine that God just sits back and accepts man's 'free will'.

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She had other children normally after the birth of Jesus, so she did not remain a virgin. Where is the problem here? And no, I am not a Catholic, and I was/am not offended that you used that word at all. However, their claim of her remaining a virgin (do they really claim that?) is not biblically based. She was a virgin and remained so up until the birth of Jesus (Joseph purposely had no relations with her until the birth), and she is no longer. So your point is?

You did leave the launch pad didn't you? I thought that might happen...

But my point is that what people believe is not necessarily related to the source they claim to derive it from.

Quote:
Quack!

BANG!

What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #128 of 346
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

So you are saying that God changes because people change?

no..... No..... NO!

God Don't Never Change

as stated by Blind Willie Johnson... via The Radiators.
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post #129 of 346
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Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

No it will not. The answer will come long after you are dead is not an acceptable answer for something that you need to know before you die. It is not that hard. But feel free to believe it is.

You don't need to know. You *WANT* to know. It *HURTS* not to know. But you don't need to know. And just filling in an answer from one of many moldy tomes doesn't cut the mustard.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #130 of 346
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Originally Posted by BR View Post

You don't need to know. You *WANT* to know. It *HURTS* not to know. But you don't need to know. And just filling in an answer from one of many moldy tomes doesn't cut the mustard.

What are you talking about exactly?
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #131 of 346
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Originally Posted by segovius View Post

You have to know God to know whether He is loving or not surely? Unless you just believe what people say about Him willy-nilly.

Well, you can know that God is loving without knowing everything about him.

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Heh...in the Middle East the carpet weavers were capable of making a perfect rug but they always had to include a deliberate mistake as only God is perfect.

I am sure.

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Glad to hear it - I was beginning to worry. But we are not talking about God - we are talking about the inadequacies of what people believe about God.

Ok, sorry for worrying you like that.

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In some ways there is so much more...but you are right also, there isn't much you can follow that with.

Having a hard time reading what you are actually saying, but will assume some level of sarcasm is involved. Please feel free to correct me if I am wrong.

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Well, I would start such an examination at the very beginning and trace it from there.

Start with the tree in the garden. God commands them not to eat of it... The first problem is with the command; nowhere does He say "use your free will" or even "you are free to do A or B and these are the consequences of each". He rather HAS to command. The purpose of the command is to prevent.

The purpose is to prevent, but the allowance was made for choice. If free will did not exist they would not have been able to make the choice to disobey.

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Further, it seems He does not know that they will eat the fruit...He has to ask who told them they were naked later on. But even if HE did know then why put them in this place? He could remove the tree (small price to pay for the damnation of billions and billions of souls - which He surely could foresee). There is no reason why they needed to be in the Garden. He could have made another one even. A treeless one. Or why make the tree in the first place?

Can't answer this question, requires much speculation about facts that I am not privy to. Starting to go back over the the "And so the age old argument goes. If God doesn't work the way I think he should he is evil..." position again however.

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And on it goes....betting with the Devil over Job (a very interesting interaction actually - God and the Devil are here shown as partners) with an unknown outcome.

I love the story of Job. God bragging on one of his favorites and Satan trying to prove him wrong. Read the story again, Satan is not a partner, he is described as an accuser.

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The God of the Bible is, in short, an interventionist God (well, one of the Gods depicted there is - there are several different "Gods" in the Bible with differing names and different characters) and an interventionist God intervenes because He does not like the way things are going.

This is contradictory to the doctrine that God just sits back and accepts man's 'free will'.

Well, there are various accounts where free will are called into question. The only instance I can think of where there may be an instance is passages where God "hardened the heart" of an individual. Of course, I don't know for sure what that means, but it usually results in the person not listening to what he is being asked to do and there being a bad result from that.

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You did leave the launch pad didn't you? I thought that might happen...

But my point is that what people believe is not necessarily related to the source they claim to derive it from.

Nope, still on the proverbial pad. Not sure what launch you were watching.

Quote:
BANG!

Quack, Quack!!
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
post #132 of 346
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

What are you talking about exactly?

You said you need to know the answer before you die. I contest that you do not need to know it. You want to know it. It may hurt not knowing it. But scrambling for an answer from historically inaccurate and self-contradictory ancient literature because you NEED an answer just doesn't make any sense.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #133 of 346
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Originally Posted by BR View Post

You said you need to know the answer before you die. I contest that you do not need to know it. You want to know it. It may hurt not knowing it. But scrambling for an answer from historically inaccurate and self-contradictory ancient literature because you NEED an answer just doesn't make any sense.

No, what answer are you talking about?
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #134 of 346
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

No, what answer are you talking about?

To life, the universe, and everything? Whatever answer you were talking about needing to know in what I quoted from you.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #135 of 346
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Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

I love the story of Job. God bragging on one of his favorites and Satan trying to prove him wrong. Read the story again, Satan is not a partner, he is described as an accuser.

Good idea, I read it again. It's worse than I thought. God is actually acting in His characteristic 'evil' mode... in fact, Satan is almost the good guy - as he so often is when compared to God's Biblical atrocities.

But it raises another point re this Free Will issue which I think will prove instructive to illustrate the irrationality of your position.

You claim Free Will exists. Let's say it does. Satan exercised this Free Will when he 'rebelled'. So now he is on the loose causing mayhem and generally being a bad boy.

Fair enough. But if he rebelled through Free Will then surely he can repent through Free Will?

Perhaps Satan gave it all up yesterday or hundreds of years ago and now is back in the fold? (Btw, note that in the opening of Job, God and the angels were hanging around talking and Satan 'just happened to be there' so he can't be that far from God. Clearly he has access whenever he wishes) - and even if not..then surely the possibility exists he can repent tomorrow?

This is the problem. Your position needs Free Will to function but it also negates Free Will as it claims things are 'mapped out'.

It is something like: "everyone has Free Will but all is predestined how they will use it"

More irrationality.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #136 of 346
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Originally Posted by segovius View Post

...
You claim Free Will exists. Let's say it does. Satan exercised this Free Will when he 'rebelled'. So now he is on the loose causing mayhem and generally being a bad boy.

Fair enough. But if he rebelled through Free Will then surely he can repent through Free Will?

...

Which raises interesting questions about believing in a God who you actively rebel against -- maybe that is the ultimate irrationality.
















Otherwise, (separate issue) is the irrationality of attempting to project "good" or "bad" upon God, who a priori is the creator of those concepts. And likewise, it's irrational to insist on free will while at the same time placing omniscience and asiety tags on God. It's also nonsense to attempt to capture God in what are, again, terms and concepts that are a priori, analogical and entirely derivative of what is uncreated Being.

Even the practice of systematic theology falls into this trap -- otherwise sane Calvinists who run the Bible through the propositional truth generator, doing so in Aristotelian terms. Even protestant Catechisms follow the chain of being.

There are some very subtle assumptions that we make that can't be definitively relied upon -- it is impossible to know for certain whether we can make ultimate sense of the universe -- and making assumptions about God is extremely tenuous at best.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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post #137 of 346
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Originally Posted by dmz View Post

Which raises interesting questions about believing in a God who you actively rebel against -- maybe that is the ultimate irrationality.

Otherwise, (separate issue) is the irrationality of attempting to project "good" or "bad" upon God, who a priori is the creator of those concepts. And likewise, it's irrational to insist on free will while at the same time placing omniscience and asiety tags on God. It's also nonsense to attempt to capture God in what are, again, terms and concepts that are a priori, analogical and entirely derivative of what is uncreated Being.

Even the practice of systematic theology falls into this trap -- otherwise sane Calvinists who run the Bible through the propositional truth generator, doing so in Aristotelian terms. Even protestant Catechisms follow the chain of being.

There are some very subtle assumptions that we make that can't be definitively relied upon -- it is impossible to know for certain whether we can make ultimate sense of the universe -- and making assumptions about God is extremely tenuous at best.


Except - perhaps 'good' and 'bad' have no meaning for God at all...

That would be one way round it...
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #138 of 346
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Except - perhaps 'good' and 'bad' have no meaning for God at all...

That would be one way round it...

Yes -- He says explicitly in Isaiah 45.7: 'I make peace, and create evil'.

I think "good" and "bad" are not abstract concepts that we can force back upon God, "good" and "bad" -- are meant for us, and are simply deficiencies in obedience.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #139 of 346
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmz View Post

Yes -- He says explicitly in Isaiah 45.7: 'I make peace, and create evil'.

I think "good" and "bad" are not abstract concepts that we can force back upon God, "good" and "bad" -- are meant for us, and are simply deficiencies in obedience.

Or maybe the obedience is the test....

Maybe there is no right or wrong and God tells us there is as a sort of intelligence test - you know, to sort out the losers and the lamers.

Maybe those who don't care what they do - Neitzscheans like myself for example - are the real inheritors of the Kingdom of Heaven.

Maybe when the roll is called up yonder, God will say "what did you do?" and all the right-wing uptight life-deniers will say "we did all these good things Lord" and He will say "where were the orgies? Where were the Opium parties? What was all that right-wing crap? Get away from me you scum..."

If you catch my drift..
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #140 of 346
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

You claim Free Will exists. Let's say it does. Satan exercised this Free Will when he 'rebelled'. So now he is on the loose causing mayhem and generally being a bad boy.

Fair enough. But if he rebelled through Free Will then surely he can repent through Free Will?

Perhaps Satan gave it all up yesterday or hundreds of years ago and now is back in the fold? (Btw, note that in the opening of Job, God and the angels were hanging around talking and Satan 'just happened to be there' so he can't be that far from God. Clearly he has access whenever he wishes) - and even if not..then surely the possibility exists he can repent tomorrow?

This is the problem. Your position needs Free Will to function but it also negates Free Will as it claims things are 'mapped out'.

There is no record of Satan ever repenting of his actions. Even if he did, there is no record of the Lord offering any type of atonement for such actions, as He has done with humanity.

That means that Satan would still have to 'serve his time' for his deeds. When a murderer says he's sorry, we don't just drop all the charges. And Satan is the Universe's ultimate mass murderer.

So the Freewill argument doesn't cover him one iota. And if one watches the news or reads the paper today, I think it is obvious Satan isn't back in the fold anyhow. Personally, the wretch has caused unspeakable harm to the universe, and it won't be a sad time watching his carcass being dragged into the Pit.

Regarding access to Heaven, the Bible explicitly says that Satan is the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night (Rev. 12:10) Thus explaining his purpose in continually approaching humanity's Most Supreme Court. The story of Job confirms this.
The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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post #141 of 346
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Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post

There is no record of Satan ever repenting of his actions. Even if he did, there is no record of the Lord offering any type of atonement for such actions, as He has done with humanity.

That means that Satan would still have to 'serve his time' for his deeds. When a murderer says he's sorry, we don't just drop all the charges. And Satan is the Universe's ultimate mass murderer.

That's just not true - well obviously - but I mean it's not Christian theological dogma.

The fact is that Christian's believe - and the Pauline aspects of the NT teach - that all is needed is to accept the Vicarious Atonement of Christ. If you do that there is no further 'time' to serve.

Quote:
So the Freewill argument doesn't cover him one iota. And if one watches the news or reads the paper today, I think it is obvious Satan isn't back in the fold anyhow. Personally, the wretch has caused unspeakable harm to the universe, and it won't be a sad time watching his carcass being dragged into the Pit.

Why doesn't the Free Will argument cover him though? Surely it must have at one point? Or did it once and now not?

Further - and this is a serious question (anyone can answer, not just you Frank if you don't like it): you say Satan is obviously 'on the loose' but how?

What exactly has He done or inspired that is really that bad? Let's list some of the present things Christian's might claim:

Premarital sex, being gay etc...I don't call any of these sins or wrong so they don't make the list.

Murders: well, many Biblical heroes were murderers: Moses, David, Joshua - all with God's blessing. God Himself has quite a high body count so surely this is not a priori 'of the devil'.

Also, it is interesting to note that at the time Cain committed the first murder there was no such prohibition against it at all. None. God could have outlawed it so Cain would know it was wrong but He did not...and of course, God continues to protect Cain after his expulsion.

War: well, this can't be down to Satan. God, in the Old Testament, explicitly claims to be a God of War and engages and encourages mass murder and genocide on an awesome scale throughout the entire first section of the Bible.

So you can't actually point to any 'crime' or 'sin' obvious today that was never committed either by God or His representatives and say that this can ONLY come from Satan.

It's not possible. Try it.

Btw, I exclude things that are the results of illnesses or mental instability as I think we should be beyond claiming the mentally ill are possessed by 'demons'.

Quote:
Regarding access to Heaven, the Bible explicitly says that Satan is the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night (Rev. 12:10) Thus explaining his purpose in continually approaching humanity's Most Supreme Court. The story of Job confirms this.

Interesting...Satan enjoys almost continual free access to the presence of God..that is food for thought...
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #142 of 346
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

Is there a thought process so convoluted that even the person that thought it could not defend it?

Defend what exactly?

Something that requires no thought process whatsoever?

My answer is that I'm defending absolutely nothing. Literally and figuratively speaking.

Two columns;

1) Things I know, have known, will know, or can know.
2) Things I do not know, have not known, will not know, or can not know.

Praise the Bored.
Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!
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Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!
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post #143 of 346
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

That's just not true - well obviously - but I mean it's not Christian theological dogma.

The fact is that Christian's believe - and the Pauline aspects of the NT teach - that all is needed is to accept the Vicarious Atonement of Christ. If you do that there is no further 'time' to serve.

Satan. Isn't. Human.
The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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post #144 of 346
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post

Satan. Isn't. Human.

God. Isn't. God.
Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!
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Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!
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post #145 of 346
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post

Satan. Isn't. Human.

No. The example was a counter to your using an analogy with humans position as below:

Quote:
When a murderer says he's sorry, we don't just drop all the charges. And Satan is the Universe's ultimate mass murderer.

But it is beside the point. The real point is: does Satan have Free Will?

If not then his Fall - and the Damnation of the vast majority of every human who ever lived - was all predestined and (presumably) part of some plan of God's.

Monstrously sick as this undoubtedly would be, anyone familiar with God's activities and mode of conduct from Genesis to Judges will feel a chilling flash of recognition of something that is all too plausible.

Alternatively, Satan does have Free Will and his rebellion was nothing to with God but initiated by himself. If this is the case then he can surely - as God is often shown to do - change his mind and reform.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #146 of 346
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

...Neitzscheans like myself for example...

Hold on there -- have you fallen away from your faith?

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #147 of 346
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

No. The example was a counter to your using an analogy with humans position as below:

The point is that Satan does not have access to the atonement God has provided for humanity. Period.

Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Alternatively, Satan does have Free Will and his rebellion was nothing to with God but initiated by himself. If this is the case then he can surely - as God is often shown to do - change his mind and reform.

Anyone can "change their minds and reform". But that does not mean they will escape paying for the crimes they have committed. Satan knows that all too well. His future is the Pit.
The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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post #148 of 346
It never ceases to blow me away when people discuss Satan as if he were real. I swear, I just never got the belief gene. And fuck, I'm glad I didn't.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #149 of 346
Busy day today so i am unable to fully answer any posts. However I see the conversation has gone on without me. Great!

Just a couple of quick points.

I don't care about whether or not Satan is covered under Free will or grace. My whole conversation is based around human interactions with God. Satan can work out his own deal.

If you want to start changing the topic to Satan is the good guy and God is the evildoer, I am not interested in continuing. Not interesting to me in the slightest.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #150 of 346
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

It never ceases to blow me away when people discuss Satan as if he were real. I swear, I just never got the belief gene. And fuck, I'm glad I didn't.

Oh, my job keeps getting easier
As time keeps slippin' away
I can imitate the brightest light
And make the night look just like day
I put some truth in every lie
To tickle itchin' ears
You know, I'm drawing people just like flies
'Cause they like what they hear
I'm gaining power by the hour
They're falling by the score
You know it's getting very simple now
'Cause no one believes in me anymore!

Oh, heaven's just a state of mind
My book read on your shelf
Oh, have you heard that God is dead?
I made that one up myself
They're dabbling with magic spells
They get their fortunes read
You know, they heard the truth
But turned away
And then followed me instead
I used to have to sneak around
But now they just open their doors
No one is watching for my trick
Since no one believes in me anymore!

Everyone likes a winner
With my help, your're guaranteed to win
Hey man, you ain't no sinner!
No, you've got the truth within
And as your life slips by you belive the lie
That you did it on your own
But don't worry
I'll be there to help you share
A dark eternal home
A dark eternal home!

Oh, my job keeps getting easier
As day slips into day
The magazines, the newspapers
Print every word I say
This world is just my spinning top
It's all like child's play
You know, I dream that it would never stop
But I know it's not that way
Still my work goes on and on
Always stronger than before
I'm gonna make it dark before the dawn
Since no one believes in me anymore!

Well, I used to have to sneak around
But now they just open their doors
You know, no one is watching for my tricks
Since no one believes in me anymore!
Well, I'm gaining power by they hour,
They're falling by the score,
You know, it's getting very easy now
Since no one believes in me anymore!
No one blieves in me anymore!
No one BELIEVES in me anymore!
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
post #151 of 346
I didn't know liberal Democrats weren't considered Christians. \
"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
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"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
Reply
post #152 of 346
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post

The point is that Satan does not have access to the atonement God has provided for humanity. Period.

I agree with this, but I cannot say what God has for angels, fallen or otherwise. And I am not going to try to assert anything in regards to that.

Quote:
Anyone can "change their minds and reform". But that does not mean they will escape paying for the crimes they have committed. Satan knows that all too well. His future is the Pit.

I don't necessarily agree with this. Under grace a murderer could technically go to heaven with a "deathbed conversion". He is not going to "get away with" anything. If the cross atones for all the sins of man, even a deathbed conversion is covered. Think of the parable of the workers in the field. One comes early in the morning, and get paid an amount. Someone comes after lunch, gets the same pay. And yet another comes near the end, same pay. It is not my job to ensure that things are fair. And I am not going to tell God how things should be done either. But the person is still subject to the laws of the land, if you are murderer, you pay the price on earth. Even if you truly repent. Sorry does not get you out of jail time.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
post #153 of 346
Quote:
Originally Posted by Northgate View Post

I didn't know liberal Democrats weren't considered Christians. \

Huh?
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
post #154 of 346
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

Oh, my job keeps getting easier
As time keeps slippin' away
I can imitate the brightest light
And make the night look just like day
I put some truth in every lie
To tickle itchin' ears
You know, I'm drawing people just like flies
'Cause they like what they hear
I'm gaining power by the hour
They're falling by the score
You know it's getting very simple now
'Cause no one believes in me anymore!

Oh, heaven's just a state of mind
My book read on your shelf
Oh, have you heard that God is dead?
I made that one up myself
They're dabbling with magic spells
They get their fortunes read
You know, they heard the truth
But turned away
And then followed me instead
I used to have to sneak around
But now they just open their doors
No one is watching for my trick
Since no one believes in me anymore!

Everyone likes a winner
With my help, your're guaranteed to win
Hey man, you ain't no sinner!
No, you've got the truth within
And as your life slips by you belive the lie
That you did it on your own
But don't worry
I'll be there to help you share
A dark eternal home
A dark eternal home!

Oh, my job keeps getting easier
As day slips into day
The magazines, the newspapers
Print every word I say
This world is just my spinning top
It's all like child's play
You know, I dream that it would never stop
But I know it's not that way
Still my work goes on and on
Always stronger than before
I'm gonna make it dark before the dawn
Since no one believes in me anymore!

Well, I used to have to sneak around
But now they just open their doors
You know, no one is watching for my tricks
Since no one believes in me anymore!
Well, I'm gaining power by they hour,
They're falling by the score,
You know, it's getting very easy now
Since no one believes in me anymore!
No one blieves in me anymore!
No one BELIEVES in me anymore!

What does a song about Laverna, the Roman goddess of unlawful gain and trickery, have to do with the current discussion?

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #155 of 346
Bill The Cat, ack, Ack, ACK, ACK!

I think I need a really heavy dose of Monty Python right about NOW!

Like let's all discuss what the Bible tells us about Satan, and like let's "pretent" he's for real even.

Ditto the Baby Jebus, or God, or that Holy Spirit dude, oh wait, their one and in the same, at least that's what the Good Bock proclaims, or some such.

Holy Rollers and Jiminy Cricket sitting in a tree K-I-S-S-I-N-G!

Bible thumping in PO?

That does not compute.

Danger, Will Robinson
Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!
Reply
Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!
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post #156 of 346
Quote:
Originally Posted by franksargent View Post

Bill The Cat, ack, Ack, ACK, ACK!

I think I need a really heavy dose of Monty Python right about NOW!

Like let's all discuss what the Bible tells us about Satan, and like let's "pretent" he's for real even.

Ditto the Baby Jebus, or God, or that Holy Spirit dude, oh wait, their one and in the same, at least that's what the Good Bock proclaims, or some such.

Holy Rollers and Jiminy Cricket sitting in a tree K-I-S-S-I-N-G!

Bible thumping in PO?

That does not compute.

Danger, Will Robinson

Nobody is forcing you to participate or even read the thread. \
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
post #157 of 346
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

What does a song about Laverna, the Roman goddess of unlawful gain and trickery, have to do with the current discussion?

Simple answer, and a pretty good song, by a pretty good singer.

I guess it could be about Laverna if you believe that any other gods have a similar root. Otherwise, I know your point, and I disagree. Deal with it.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
post #158 of 346
Quote:
Originally Posted by franksargent View Post

Defend what exactly?

Something that requires no thought process whatsoever?

My answer is that I'm defending absolutely nothing. Literally and figuratively speaking.

Two columns;

1) Things I know, have known, will know, or can know.
2) Things I do not know, have not known, will not know, or can not know.

Praise the Bored.

So you don't have any thoughts, therefore nothing to defend?

Sorry, this is not a zero sum game. If you believe it, it is a belief. Period. It may not be a religion, but it is a belief. And one that you hold very strongly it seems, at the expense of everyone elses in that particular conversation.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
post #159 of 346
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

So you don't have any thoughts, therefore nothing to defend?

Sorry, this is not a zero sum game. If you believe it, it is a belief. Period. It may not be a religion, but it is a belief. And one that you hold very strongly it seems, at the expense of everyone elses in that particular conversation.

Strawperson.

You don't get to define how my mind works.

Your beliefs != my knowledge

You see I'm bipolar and you're not (quite obviously).
Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!
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Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!
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post #160 of 346
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

To life, the universe, and everything? Whatever answer you were talking about needing to know in what I quoted from you.

I believe you are mistaken on what question I am feeling the answer should be known. Before one dies, one needs to know and fully understand that they are loved by God. They need to know it so they can also accept why he freely gave forgiveness of sin. They also need to know it for the reason that follows death.

The answer to life, the universe, and everything would be a good one too though. Let me know if you figure it out...
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
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