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The Bible --- Too liberal For Some - Page 5

post #161 of 346
Quote:
Originally Posted by franksargent View Post

Strawperson.

You don't get to define how my mind works.

Your beliefs != my knowledge

You see I'm bipolar and you're not (quite obviously).

And I see that you believe that to be true.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
post #162 of 346
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

Nobody is forcing you to participate or even read the thread. \

Praise the Gored!
Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!
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Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!
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post #163 of 346
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

And I see that you believe that to be true.

You believe. I don't.

Raze the Horde!
Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!
Reply
Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!
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post #164 of 346
What's really funny in these discussions in PO is that typically the behaviors of the Christians and the non-believers are essentially identical...

That probably doesn't bode well for some folks.
post #165 of 346
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post

What's really funny in these discussions in PO is that typically the behaviors of the Christians and the non-believers are essentially identical...

That probably doesn't bode well for some folks.

Do you have a problem with my behavior? Have I been rude or overly sarcastic? Or is that pointed at someone else? I only ask because I have posted a lot in this thread.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
post #166 of 346
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

Do you have a problem with my behavior? Have I been rude or overly sarcastic? Or is that pointed at someone else? I only ask because I have posted a lot in this thread.

Nope. I dunno that you've been unfailingly polite or anything and I don't recall you being rude but there are folks that disbelieve that are mostly polite too. Then you have folks on both sides who are rude or sarcastic.

Eh. In this case it's an observation and not me bagging on you. It just seems bad because there arguably should be a notable difference.
post #167 of 346
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

I believe you are mistaken on what question I am feeling the answer should be known. Before one dies, one needs to know and fully understand that they are loved by God. They need to know it so they can also accept why he freely gave forgiveness of sin. They also need to know it for the reason that follows death.

The answer to life, the universe, and everything would be a good one too though. Let me know if you figure it out...

No, you don't need to know that. You want to know that. But you don't need to. You only think you need to through social conditioning and the uncorroborated words from an ancient historical fiction. Sorry.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #168 of 346
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

No, you don't need to know that. You want to know that. But you don't need to. You only think you need to through social conditioning and the uncorroborated words from an ancient historical fiction. Sorry.

Thank you. Your opinion is noted. No apology is necessary. You don't have to agree. I hope you find what you need before your time is up.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
post #169 of 346
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post

Nope. I dunno that you've been unfailingly polite or anything and I don't recall you being rude but there are folks that disbelieve that are mostly polite too. Then you have folks on both sides who are rude or sarcastic.

Eh. In this case it's an observation and not me bagging on you. It just seems bad because there arguably should be a notable difference.

Well I am not unfailingly anything, but I hope to avoid rude and sarcastic as much as possible. However, what do you expect from Christians? I am interested to know what you think should be lived out? I have my opinions, but I am admittedly a bit biased.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
post #170 of 346
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

Oh, my job keeps getting easier
As time keeps slippin' away
I can imitate the brightest light
And make the night look just like day
I put some truth in every lie
To tickle itchin' ears
You know, I'm drawing people just like flies
'Cause they like what they hear
I'm gaining power by the hour
They're falling by the score
You know it's getting very simple now
'Cause no one believes in me anymore!

Oh, heaven's just a state of mind
My book read on your shelf
Oh, have you heard that God is dead?
I made that one up myself
They're dabbling with magic spells
They get their fortunes read
You know, they heard the truth
But turned away
And then followed me instead
I used to have to sneak around
But now they just open their doors
No one is watching for my trick
Since no one believes in me anymore!

Everyone likes a winner
With my help, your're guaranteed to win
Hey man, you ain't no sinner!
No, you've got the truth within
And as your life slips by you belive the lie
That you did it on your own
But don't worry
I'll be there to help you share
A dark eternal home
A dark eternal home!

Oh, my job keeps getting easier
As day slips into day
The magazines, the newspapers
Print every word I say
This world is just my spinning top
It's all like child's play
You know, I dream that it would never stop
But I know it's not that way
Still my work goes on and on
Always stronger than before
I'm gonna make it dark before the dawn
Since no one believes in me anymore!

Well, I used to have to sneak around
But now they just open their doors
You know, no one is watching for my tricks
Since no one believes in me anymore!
Well, I'm gaining power by they hour,
They're falling by the score,
You know, it's getting very easy now
Since no one believes in me anymore!
No one blieves in me anymore!
No one BELIEVES in me anymore!

I knew Keith Green a bit. Shame he died like that.

But he could not really back up his position at all. Nice guy but it's all about belief rather than thinking isn't it?
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #171 of 346
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

I knew Keith Green a bit. Shame he died like that.

But he could not really back up his position at all. Nice guy but it's all about belief rather than thinking isn't it?

It is all about doing rather than just saying. He was not perfect, but he was a great example that I would hope that other Christians could look to for inspiration.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
post #172 of 346
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

It is all about doing rather than just saying. He was not perfect, but he was a great example that I would hope that other Christians could look to for inspiration.

They'd do better trying to look to Jesus. Might be a bit better for them...worth a try...it's crazy but it just might work.

Probably have to give up a lot of their crap though.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #173 of 346
In what other arena are you allowed to not back up your position with facts and evidence? Why does religion get a pass?

Premise: The bible is true and Jesus is the only path to salvation.
Evidence: ???

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #174 of 346
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

In what other arena are you allowed to not back up your position with facts and evidence? Why does religion get a pass?

Premise: The bible is true and Jesus is the only path to salvation.
Evidence: ???

I think it get a pass because most people realize that it is a form of mental disorder to varying degrees and are too embarrassed to confront it in that way.

Much like when the lunatic in the street is shouting that he is Napoleon.

However, my position is that this does not mean - as some other lunatics suffering a different strain of madness will claim - that the lunatic "made up this character Napoleon" and that Napoleon 'never existed'.

As these people are suffering from being irrational we need to attempt some sort of therapy (rather than opposition) imo, to bring them back to the fold. That means engaging them rationally and trying to show them the illogicality of their position.

People who don't do that - or ignore them - or just oppose on equally irrational grounds also citing no evidence: these are the only ones giving a 'free pass'.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #175 of 346
I've been around here long enough to know how a thread like this was going to turn out.

That's why, like most everyone, I jumped straight into the Biblical discussion and pretty much ignored the actual topic of the OP. (Those idiots do get points for doing something so incredibly stupid, both conservatives and liberals view them with disdain.)

But the fact remains that we're on page 5 of a thread that is purporting to discuss the credibility of the Bible, and the phrase 'textual criticism' has yet to be even typed.

Instead we have Grove linking to two authors who don't begin to represent authorities in the field (but he pretends they are.) And then we have someone else who asked for mathematical proofs only - we'll get Jodie Foster working right on that.

The simple fact is that many people (but mainly liberals) think they understand Biblical positions on just about everything because they once heard something in Sunday School or get a few reference points from pop culture. And they sound just as ignorant as Christians who blow into a thread and start spamming certain talking points on evolution.

It is painfully clear that most people here (Sego and Grove aside) have never done any serious study on the Christian perspective on the religious issues they comment on here in PO.

That is just lazy. Last year saw the release of amazing study aids like the ESV Study Bible, which I think is the single best Study Bible available on the market today. It contains great reference material and lots of historical and literary information about the culture in which the Bible was written. It also has great notes on Christian doctrines, and current issues that we discuss here often like same-sex marriage, civil government, just war concepts and a whole section devoted to the reliability of Bible manuscripts.

The NLT Study Bible (also released last year), isn't bad either, but isn't as comprehensive as the ESVSB (in my opinion.)

I'm not trying to say "go read this" and stifle the discussion here. But I've invested time in learning about the perspectives of various posters here at AI when threads have caught my eye. It can't hurt for non-Christians to at least be familiar with Christian doctrines and biblical concepts when we're discussing them in PO.

Or you could just post drive-by insults like the other Frank. Whatever makes you happy.
The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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post #176 of 346
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post

I've been around here long enough to know how a thread like this was going to turn out.

That's why, like most everyone, I jumped straight into the Biblical discussion and pretty much ignored the actual topic of the OP. (Those idiots do get points for doing something so incredibly stupid, both conservatives and liberals view them with disdain.)

But the fact remains that we're on page 5 of a thread that is purporting to discuss the credibility of the Bible, and the phrase 'textual criticism' has yet to be even typed.

Instead we have Grove linking to two authors who don't begin to represent authorities in the field (but he pretends they are.) And then we have someone else who asked for mathematical proofs only - we'll get Jodie Foster working right on that.

The simple fact is that many people (but mainly liberals) think they understand Biblical positions on just about everything because they once heard something in Sunday School or get a few reference points from pop culture. And they sound just as ignorant as Christians who blow into a thread and start spamming certain talking points on evolution.

It is painfully clear that most people here (Sego and Grove aside) have never done any serious study on the Christian perspective on the religious issues they comment on here in PO.

That is just lazy. Last year saw the release of amazing study aids like the ESV Study Bible, which I think is the single best Study Bible available on the market today. It contains great reference material and lots of historical and literary information about the culture in which the Bible was written. It also has great notes on Christian doctrines, and current issues that we discuss here often like same-sex marriage, civil government, just war concepts and a whole section devoted to the reliability of Bible manuscripts.

The NLT Study Bible (also released last year), isn't bad either, but isn't as comprehensive as the ESVSB (in my opinion.)

I'm not trying to say "go read this" and stifle the discussion here. But I've invested time in learning about the perspectives of various posters here at AI when threads have caught my eye. It can't hurt for non-Christians to at least be familiar with Christian doctrines and biblical concepts when we're discussing them in PO.

Or you could just post drive-by insults like the other Frank. Whatever makes you happy.

Why is Christianity right and all other religions from the entire history of man wrong? Evidence?

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #177 of 346
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

I think it get a pass because most people realize that it is a form of mental disorder to varying degrees and are too embarrassed to confront it in that way.

Much like when the lunatic in the street is shouting that he is Napoleon.

However, my position is that this does not mean - as some other lunatics suffering a different strain of madness will claim - that the lunatic "made up this character Napoleon" and that Napoleon 'never existed'.

As these people are suffering from being irrational we need to attempt some sort of therapy (rather than opposition) imo, to bring them back to the fold. That means engaging them rationally and trying to show them the illogicality of their position.

People who don't do that - or ignore them - or just oppose on equally irrational grounds also citing no evidence: these are the only ones giving a 'free pass'.

I think specificity in language is also an issue. When most atheists say "I don't believe in God", I'm pretty damn sure they are referring to one of the many crazy contradictory man-made constructs of God. I don't think a vast majority would have any objection to the notion that the universe may have been created or set in motion by some sort of more powerful entity beyond our current level of comprehension. The difference is they are more comfortable with reserving judgment until more evidence is actually in and leaving the answer as "I don't know" until then.

I think Vocal American Christians are very polarizing and push many otherwise rational people into more absolute positions out of frustration over the fact that if you give Vocal American Christians an inch, they take a mile.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #178 of 346
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

I think specificity in language is also an issue. When most atheists say "I don't believe in God", I'm pretty damn sure they are referring to one of the many crazy contradictory man-made constructs of God. I don't think a vast majority would have any objection to the notion that the universe may have been created or set in motion by some sort of more powerful entity beyond our current level of comprehension. The difference is they are more comfortable with reserving judgment until more evidence is actually in and leaving the answer as "I don't know" until then.

I think Vocal American Christians are very polarizing and push many otherwise rational people into more absolute positions out of frustration over the fact that if you give Vocal American Christians an inch, they take a mile.

Yes, I think you are right. Language is definitely an issue.

There is also a political aspect with US Christians too which I think needs to be opposed but is confusing.

In the UK, the Church of England is noted for being very liberal - gay vicars, women priests and opposition to the war etc. The current Archbishop is actually a great guy (but then he is Welsh - we all are!) who regularly bashes the Government and is I think a Marxist of sorts. So there is quite an 'alternative' aspect to some form of mainstream Christianity there.

The fundies are actually seen as a small lunatic fringe in the UK whereas in the US they seem to be the main event to the point where no-one seems to realize there is anything else.

US Christianity is inseparable from right-wing politics - extreme right-wing even. first we need to take that out of it and see what is left. My guess is that most of the US 'Christians' would not fit in that category if you removed the adherence to materialism, general warmaking/aggression and adherence to the status quo.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #179 of 346


Fitting comic posted today on SMBC.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #180 of 346
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post

...and the phrase 'textual criticism' has yet to be even typed.
...

Actually I went into that, on the first page -- didn't phase anyone.

But, dontcha' know, Frank777, historical-textual criticism simply doesn't exist!? No one believes it, no one studies it, it's never been studied in the past, you can't go to iTunesU and find podcasts about it, it's never been a major topic in systematic theology, there is no "Historical Jesus" movement, it's certainly never been studied in anthropology, no one in the 19th......


Look! Shiny drunk atheist wrote another book!

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #181 of 346
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmz View Post

Actually I went into that, on the first page -- didn't phase anyone.

But, dontcha' know, Frank777, historical-textual criticism simply doesn't exist!? No one believes it, no one studies it, it's never been studied in the past, you can't go to iTunesU and find podcasts about it, it's never been a major topic in systematic theology, there is no "Historical Jesus" movement, it's certainly never been studied in anthropology, no one in the 19th......


Look! Shiny drunk atheist wrote another book!

I don't think that Christians should really invoke textual Criticism - either they won't know how to sue it or else they'll have to lie about where it leads as it blows their Biblical foundation out of thae water.

Unless we're talking about someone like McDowell or whoever the fundies wheel out these days. Which is not so much textual criticism as textual masturbation (to coin a phrase).

Btw, I think you're last comment is quite unfair. If you refer to Hitchens it is a MASSIVE deal if he writes a book - stringing a sentence together is his version of solving Fermat's Last Theorem and actually stopping the DTs long enough to put querulous finger to keyboard...well...but Bush is out of office now so he has more time on his hands and no brown-nosing duties so maybe it's a matter of time to practice....
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #182 of 346
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

...Btw, I think you're last comment is quite unfair. If you refer to Hitchens it is a MASSIVE deal if he writes a book - stringing a sentence together is his version of solving Fermat's Last Theorem and actually stopping the DTs long enough to put querulous finger to keyboard...well...but Bush is out of office now so he has more time on his hands and no brown-nosing duties so maybe it's a matter of time to practice....



Good one -- you wonder how they get the registration right on the print version of Vanity Fair with that guy shaking in the same building.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #183 of 346
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

They'd do better trying to look to Jesus. Might be a bit better for them...worth a try...it's crazy but it just might work.

Probably have to give up a lot of their crap though.

Jesus is the primary example. Keith Green to me was an example of how a modern day person would look if he were trying trying to follow that example and not the touchstone for Jesus himself. Keith was not God, a god, or even semi-perfect. Nor did he want to be seen that way. But he believed what he sang about and he put that belief into action. How many other Christians do you know of that are actually doing that? Care to comment on the other part of my post?

Quote:
It is all about doing rather than just saying.

It directly answers the second part of your comment.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
post #184 of 346
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

I think it get a pass because most people realize that it is a form of mental disorder to varying degrees and are too embarrassed to confront it in that way.

Much like when the lunatic in the street is shouting that he is Napoleon.

However, my position is that this does not mean - as some other lunatics suffering a different strain of madness will claim - that the lunatic "made up this character Napoleon" and that Napoleon 'never existed'.

As these people are suffering from being irrational we need to attempt some sort of therapy (rather than opposition) imo, to bring them back to the fold. That means engaging them rationally and trying to show them the illogicality of their position.

People who don't do that - or ignore them - or just oppose on equally irrational grounds also citing no evidence: these are the only ones giving a 'free pass'.

You know, I read the beginning of a book the other day that I had to set down because I thought it was way over the line. It was called "Mind Siege". My father-in-law who had passed away a few years ago had it in his collection of books. Your post has shades of the premise of that book.

Let's redefine Christian thinking as a mental illness... \
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
post #185 of 346
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

You know, I read the beginning of a book the other day that I had to set down because I thought it was way over the line. It was called "Mind Siege". My father-in-law who had passed away a few years ago had it in his collection of books. Your post has shades of the premise of that book.

Let's redefine Christian thinking as a mental illness... \

That's not what I am saying.

More that a lot of mental illness seems to manifest in a religious or supernatural framework.

However, I do think a lot of Christians might be mentally ill. I grew up with quite a lot of them and I had opportunities for observing them at close quarters.

I won't name names but if I did you would probably know them, the people I am thinking of were either mad (literally) or liars and not Christians at all. In this last category I will name some people actually...no, maybe not on second thoughts.

The only ones I knew who were what I would call 'real' Christians were - strangely enough - persecuted by other Christians!! I remember a singer called Larry norman who was quite cool (he died recently) but he was constantly ostracised for various things: playing rock, getting divorced, reading the Qur'an (!!!). It was a real hate-campaigh but I thought he was ok.

Another guy I talked with quite a bit was someone who carried a cross all round the world. He was a bit odd to be honest but actually very sincere and humble He told me that he'd asked to leave his cross overnight at Churches and been refused!!!! And that the only people who offered him food were pubs and bikers!! And his best conversations/receptions were in Islamic countries!!!

I think that sums it up really.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #186 of 346
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

Care to comment on the other part of my post?

Perhaps.

Which bit? Can you re-state it? I was educated under Thatcher...
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #187 of 346
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

That's not what I am saying.

More that a lot of mental illness seems to manifest in a religious or supernatural framework.

However, I do think a lot of Christians might be mentally ill. I grew up with quite a lot of them and I had opportunities for observing them at close quarters.

I won't name names but if I did you would probably know them, the people I am thinking of were either mad (literally) or liars and not Christians at all. In this last category I will name some people actually...no, maybe not on second thoughts.

Being that so many defined themselves as christians over the years without a thought to what that definition means the fact that they may or may not have been mentally ill does not coincide with their being christian any more than it does with them being human.

Quote:
The only ones I knew who were what I would call 'real' Christians were - strangely enough - persecuted by other Christians!! I remember a singer called Larry norman who was quite cool (he died recently) but he was constantly ostracised for various things: playing rock, getting divorced, reading the Qur'an (!!!). It was a real hate-campaigh but I thought he was ok.

Larry Norman was another great Christian singer. I loved his songs, and the message was poignant. A no compromise message that caused many people to be uncomfortable. Which was why he was not widely accepted in a mainstream way. Not much fluff in his music.

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Another guy I talked with quite a bit was someone who carried a cross all round the world. He was a bit odd to be honest but actually very sincere and humble He told me that he'd asked to leave his cross overnight at Churches and been refused!!!! And that the only people who offered him food were pubs and bikers!! And his best conversations/receptions were in Islamic countries!!!

I think that sums it up really.

Sounds like a neat guy. But how does any of that sum up your point? I must have missed your main point.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
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post #188 of 346
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Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

Being that so many defined themselves as christians over the years without a thought to what that definition means the fact that they may or may not have been mentally ill does not coincide with their being christian any more than it does with them being human.


Larry Norman was another great Christian singer. I loved his songs, and the message was poignant. A no compromise message that caused many people to be uncomfortable. Which was why he was not widely accepted in a mainstream way. Not much fluff in his music.


Sounds like a neat guy. But how does any of that sum up your point? I must have missed your main point.

I suppose that my main point is that if you took the sum total of people who call themselves Christians anywhere on the face of the planet then the ones that really are could be counted on the fingers of a spectacularly inept one-armed chain saw juggler who performs blindfolded and stocked to the gills on industrial grade largactyl.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #189 of 346
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Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Perhaps.

Which bit? Can you re-state it? I was educated under Thatcher...

It is all about doing rather than just saying. \t\t\t \t\t

That was my main point when I brought up Keith Green.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #190 of 346
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Originally Posted by segovius View Post

I suppose that my main point is that if you took the sum total of people who call themselves Christians anywhere on the face of the planet then the ones that really are could be counted on the fingers of a spectacularly inept one-armed chain saw juggler who performs blindfolded and stocked to the gills on industrial grade largactyl.

What is your definition of Christian? I do believe that many who call themselves Christian are only using the name and define it as "good person". But I believe there are many other true Christian people to be found. America's share of them appears to be on the decline.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #191 of 346
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Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post

I've been around here long enough to know how a thread like this was going to turn out.

That's why, like most everyone, I jumped straight into the Biblical discussion and pretty much ignored the actual topic of the OP. (Those idiots do get points for doing something so incredibly stupid, both conservatives and liberals view them with disdain.)

But the fact remains that we're on page 5 of a thread that is purporting to discuss the credibility of the Bible, and the phrase 'textual criticism' has yet to be even typed.

Instead we have Grove linking to two authors who don't begin to represent authorities in the field (but he pretends they are.) And then we have someone else who asked for mathematical proofs only - we'll get Jodie Foster working right on that.

The simple fact is that many people (but mainly liberals) think they understand Biblical positions on just about everything because they once heard something in Sunday School or get a few reference points from pop culture. And they sound just as ignorant as Christians who blow into a thread and start spamming certain talking points on evolution.

It is painfully clear that most people here (Sego and Grove aside) have never done any serious study on the Christian perspective on the religious issues they comment on here in PO.

That is just lazy. Last year saw the release of amazing study aids like the ESV Study Bible, which I think is the single best Study Bible available on the market today. It contains great reference material and lots of historical and literary information about the culture in which the Bible was written. It also has great notes on Christian doctrines, and current issues that we discuss here often like same-sex marriage, civil government, just war concepts and a whole section devoted to the reliability of Bible manuscripts.

The NLT Study Bible (also released last year), isn't bad either, but isn't as comprehensive as the ESVSB (in my opinion.)

I'm not trying to say "go read this" and stifle the discussion here. But I've invested time in learning about the perspectives of various posters here at AI when threads have caught my eye. It can't hurt for non-Christians to at least be familiar with Christian doctrines and biblical concepts when we're discussing them in PO.

Or you could just post drive-by insults like the other Frank. Whatever makes you happy.

Drive by time?

The Bible is the foundation of the ultimate circle jerk.

Haze the Board!
Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!
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Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!
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post #192 of 346
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Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

What is your definition of Christian? I do believe that many who call themselves Christian are only using the name and define it as "good person". But I believe there are many other true Christian people to be found. America's share of them appears to be on the decline.

Can't disagree there.

I would say that a Christian is someone who has the 'Christ Nature' and - as a secondary issue - follows the doctrine of Christ because of it.

Actually I would say this applies to all other religions too with their respective founders.

It's actually a very big thing to claim, to be a Christian. I'm kind of with Neitzsche on this one - there was only ever one and he died on a cross.

Still, is a good thing to aim to be...if people do attempt to be it. Very little evidence of that though I'm afraid...
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #193 of 346
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Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post

Satan. Isn't. Human.

Excuse my barging in like this, but I was wondering, (along the lines of the paradoxical question) - Did God bring into existance in his creation an evil that is so great that even God could not bring herself to forgive it?
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post #194 of 346
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Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Can't disagree there.

I would say that a Christian is someone who has the 'Christ Nature' and - as a secondary issue - follows the doctrine of Christ because of it.

Actually I would say this applies to all other religions too with their respective founders.

Your definition seems to coincide with mine so I will make some assumption of common ground when we say the word Christian.

I am not speaking of other religions in this conversation so much though. I have a problem with Christians having religion, because it becomes something they turn off and on like a light switch. Sundays and Wednesdays. The Judaism approach is more like how a religion should work. It is a direct part of your life and is involved in all your decision processes.

Quote:
It's actually a very big thing to claim, to be a Christian. I'm kind of with Neitzsche on this one - there was only ever one and he died on a cross.

Still, is a good thing to aim to be...if people do attempt to be it. Very little evidence of that though I'm afraid...

You don't have to be a perfect copy to be a Christian. However you should do your best to live it out. God's love will take care of the rest over time.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #195 of 346
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Originally Posted by ignis fatuus View Post

Excuse my barging in like this, but I was wondering, (along the lines of the paradoxical question) - is there an evil in the universe that is so great that even God could not bring herself to forgive it?

Ask God, none here can answer that question in full honesty.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #196 of 346
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Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

Ask God, none here can answer that question in full honesty.

philosophically speaking though, no-one can answer any theological questions in full honesty, yet there are many who present themselves as the human mouthpieces of God when it comes to giving opinions of Gods will,

so I would expect that there is definately an opinion as to whether God could create an evil so great that she couldn't forgive it. Dont you think?
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post #197 of 346
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Originally Posted by ignis fatuus View Post

philosophically speaking though, no-one can answer any theological questions in full honesty, yet there are many who present themselves as the human mouthpieces of God when it comes to giving opinions of Gods will,

so I would expect that there is definately an opinion as to whether God could create an evil so great that she couldn't forgive it. Dont you think?

If you want an opinion that is one thing, and it will be worth whatever esteem you hold the person in as to weight you give to the answer you get.

I am sure there is an opinion, but I for one will not be giving it.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #198 of 346
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Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

If you want an opinion that is one thing, and it will be worth whatever esteem you hold the person in as to weight you give to the answer you get.

I am sure there is an opinion, but I for one will not be giving it.

but it would appear to me that there is a very obvious easy answer, or at least a reasoned opinion having understood bible theology and to be following in the footsteps of the Christ-figure

'The love of God is more powerful than the hatred of Satan'

I would have opined that either 'It is... or it isnt?'.
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post #199 of 346
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Originally Posted by ignis fatuus View Post

but it would appear to me that there is a very obvious easy answer, or at least a reasoned opinion having understood bible theology and to be following in the footsteps of the Christ-figure

'The love of God is more powerful than the hatred of Satan'

I would have opined that either 'It is... or it isnt?'.

This question does not advance anything that concerns me. It sounds like you have your opinion worked out. My opinion of what God is or is not capable of in a theoretical sense does not matter.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #200 of 346
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Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

This question does not advance anything that concerns me. It sounds like you have your opinion worked out. My opinion of what God is or is not capable of in a theoretical sense does not matter.

...maybe reasoned logic then, after all, everyones views on theological issues are nothing but opinion, which one would hope would be constructed from reasoned logic, sound judgements and mental integrity, unless...you have the batphone to God?

perhaps you decline your opinion in this instance because you know that what you believe is logically a non starter.

You would hold up God as the highest principle, yet in order to satisfy your belief structure, would have him succumb to Satanized trait of hatred and non-forgiveness, by necessetating that Satan must absolutely must be sent to the pit to be 'unmercifilly destroyed'.

Surely if God cannot forgive Satan ,given that Satan has free will to repent, then Satan has infiltrated and corrupted Gods 'universal love and forgiveness', and Satan is surely a more powerful principle than what God stands for.

Given that this is an obvious illogical paradox that cannot be resolved under the belief structure a few are advancing here, it is not much of a suprise that you chose to state that nothing is being advanced that concerns you.

Perhaps the thought that the 'rock' you chose to believe in, or your interpretation of it, is so easily logically proven fallible, scares you too much?
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