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The Bible --- Too liberal For Some - Page 6

post #201 of 346
Quote:
Originally Posted by ignis fatuus View Post

...maybe reasoned logic then, after all, everyones views on theological issues are nothing but opinion, which one would hope would be constructed from reasoned logic, sound judgements and mental integrity, unless...you have the batphone to God?

perhaps you decline your opinion in this instance because you know that what you believe is logically a non starter.

You would hold up God as the highest principle, yet in order to satisfy your belief structure, would have him succumb to Satanized trait of hatred and non-forgiveness, by necessetating that Satan must absolutely must be sent to the pit to be 'unmercifilly destroyed'.

Surely if God cannot give forgive Satan given that Satan has free will to repent, then Satan has infiltrated and corrupted Gods 'universal love and forgiveness', and is surely a more powerful principle than what God stands for.

Given that this is an obvious illogical paradox that cannot be resolved under the belief structure a few are advancing here, it is not much of a suprise that you chose to state that nothing is being advanced that concerns you.

Perhaps the thought that the 'rock' you chose to believe in, or your interpretation of it, is so easily logically proven fallible, scares you too much?

Perhaps your badgering works for some, I have already stated that I have nothing to say on this issue.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #202 of 346
Quote:
Originally Posted by ignis fatuus View Post

...maybe reasoned logic then, after all, everyones views on theological issues are nothing but opinion, which one would hope would be constructed from reasoned logic, sound judgements and mental integrity, unless...you have the batphone to God?

perhaps you decline your opinion in this instance because you know that what you believe is logically a non starter.

You would hold up God as the highest principle, yet in order to satisfy your belief structure, would have him succumb to Satanized trait of hatred and non-forgiveness, by necessetating that Satan must absolutely must be sent to the pit to be 'unmercifilly destroyed'.

Surely if God cannot forgive Satan ,given that Satan has free will to repent, then Satan has infiltrated and corrupted Gods 'universal love and forgiveness', and Satan is surely a more powerful principle than what God stands for.

Given that this is an obvious illogical paradox that cannot be resolved under the belief structure a few are advancing here, it is not much of a suprise that you chose to state that nothing is being advanced that concerns you.

Perhaps the thought that the 'rock' you chose to believe in, or your interpretation of it, is so easily logically proven fallible, scares you too much?

What you presume is that we, as in any of us, are God!
"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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post #203 of 346
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

What you presume is that we, as in any of us, are God!

Its rather odd though, that as a mere flawed human, I can come up with a more compassionate resolution to the problem of sin and decay in the universe than the Xian interpretation of Biblical God.

What I presume is therefore not that we/I am god, but if we are to believe Xian theology - I am better than God.

Probably false, - but it shows the deceptively low standard of their thinking, yet when presented with such an illogical reality, prefer to offer up their posteriors to the desert than resolve logically the obvious probable dilemma that I am not a greater thinker than God...

Xian interpretation of God produces a rabble of stone throwing Neanderthals that are hell bent on revenge - much like rednecks support of the war on Islam - perhaps thats why the two are indistinguishable.

Just forgive Satan when he is ready to repent. Infact, Xian God is prolonging indefinately the suffering of the human condition by being ignorant, proud and stubborn.

Suppose Satan were to go to God tomorrow and offer to throw in the sin stained towel and fully repent for his transgressions, ie to put the universe back into the state it was pre 'fall' - but if God is stubborn and refuses, then Satan vows to double his efforts to propogate sin and decay...
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post #204 of 346
Quote:
Originally Posted by ignis fatuus View Post

Its rather odd though, that as a mere human, I can come up with a more compassionate resolution to the problem of sin and decay in the universe than the Xian interpretation of Biblical God.

Suppose Satan were to go to God tomorrow and offer to throw in the sin stained towel and fully repent for his transgressions, ie to put the universe back into the state it was pre 'fall' - but if God is stubborn and refuses, then Satan vows to double his efforts to propogate sin and decay...

People look at all of this stuff from their own perspectives and that can sometimes be illuminating or confusing.

From my perspective demons aren't and won't be seeking forgiveness for anything, quite the opposite. But hey, maybe one day they will!
"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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post #205 of 346
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

People look at all of this stuff from their own perspectives and that can sometimes be illuminating or confusing.

From my perspective demons aren't and won't be seeking forgiveness for anything, quite the opposite. But hey, maybe one day they will!

perhaps demons only become a reality when faced with a ignorant, uncompromising, stubborn authoritarian figure.

If you believe in them in the first place....
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post #206 of 346
Quote:
Originally Posted by ignis fatuus View Post

perhaps demons only become a reality when faced with a ignorant, uncompromising, stubborn authoritarian figure.

If you believe in them in the first place....

They are real. You either believe in them for real or you don't.
"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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post #207 of 346
In the Qur'an - which I find a rather purer book than the Bible - there is something called the 'Satanic Verses'. That idiot Rushdie drew on them for a somewhat execrable novel you might remember.

These verses seem to say that it is ok to worship certain idols - but there they are, right in the Qur'an.

Over the centuries, a whole school - many schools actually - of theology have grown up around this trying to explain it. The most favoured explanation is that the Devil is capable of pretending and fooling to the extent he can even insert items in Scripture.

but this has caused other theological problems. Problems which Islam (unlike Christianity) does not shy away from. The main one is this: if it is accepted that Satan can insert text into a Hoyt Scripture then how do we know which is from Satan and which is from God? Put another way: the non-Satanic verses might be the REAL Satanic verses...it is a hornet's nest.

Likewise with the Bible....say the Devil and demons exist. Say they can quote Scripture...how do we know which is from the Devil? Maybe it is Christianity that is the Devil's master plan?

Put another way: a devil appears in your room tonight - claims to be God with a 'message'. Odds are 99% of people will believe the demon in it's God guise because it is supernatural.

Makes you think eh?

Or maybe not...
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #208 of 346
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

They are real. You either believe in them for real or you don't.

Or maybe they become real if you believe in them?

Like fairies or UFOs.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #209 of 346
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

They are real. You either believe in them for real or you don't.

I would guess that like most things, 'real'-ness depends on the context of understanding. Quite alot of things can be true and false at the same time, no?
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post #210 of 346
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

In the Qur'an - which I find a rather purer book than the Bible - there is something called the 'Satanic Verses'. That idiot Rushdie drew on them for a somewhat execrable novel you might remember.

These verses seem to say that it is ok to worship certain idols - but there they are, right in the Qur'an.

Over the centuries, a whole school - many schools actually - of theology have grown up around this trying to explain it. The most favoured explanation is that the Devil is capable of pretending and fooling to the extent he can even insert items in Scripture.

but this has caused other theological problems. Problems which Islam (unlike Christianity) does not shy away from. The main one is this: if it is accepted that Satan can insert text into a Hoyt Scripture then how do we know which is from Satan and which is from God? Put another way: the non-Satanic verses might be the REAL Satanic verses...it is a hornet's nest.

Likewise with the Bible....say the Devil and demons exist. Say they can quote Scripture...how do we know which is from the Devil? Maybe it is Christianity that is the Devil's master plan?

Put another way: a devil appears in your room tonight - claims to be God with a 'message'. Odds are 99% of people will believe the demon in it's God guise because it is supernatural.

Makes you think eh?

Or maybe not...

An interesting post but if you understood at all demons you'd know that there's no way in hell (literally) that they are going to convince anybody that their anything other than what they are. That's the nature of vwhat they are. It's the equivalent of saying windows could fool someone into thinking it was OSX. It can't, if you catch my drift.
"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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post #211 of 346
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

The main one is this: if it is accepted that Satan can insert text into a Hoyt Scripture then how do we know which is from Satan and which is from God? Put another way: the non-Satanic verses might be the REAL Satanic verses...it is a hornet's nest.

Likewise with the Bible....say the Devil and demons exist. Say they can quote Scripture...how do we know which is from the Devil? Maybe it is Christianity that is the Devil's master plan?

Put another way: a devil appears in your room tonight - claims to be God with a 'message'. Odds are 99% of people will believe the demon in it's God guise because it is supernatural.

Makes you think eh?

Or maybe not...

If these things were true, - if I were he and had these powers, i would just remove all reference to the 'true' god and leave myself as the object to be worshipped - which could mean that the scriptures are a diametric reality.
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post #212 of 346
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

An interesting post but if you understood at all demons you'd know that there's no way in hell (literally) that they are going to convince anybody that their anything other than what they are. That's the nature of vwhat they are. It's the equivalent of saying windows could fool someone into thinking it was OSX. It can't, if you catch my drift.

When I was about 6 years old I used to live in a religious community.

One day, I saw an exorcism. The girl was called Meg, about 18 at the time I think. Maybe she had a drug problem but I didn't know that then obviously.

Anyway, the Big Cheese of the place where we lived was dragging here around by her hair a bit and she was screaming a lot. As you would I guess. They tried to keep me out of the way so I didn't see much of it but I watched from my room as she managed to get out of the house and run down the road.

The Head Honcho chased her a bit but she manage to get to a phone box. I thought she would try to phone for help but she didn't - she somehow managed to smash her hands through the glass and rub her wrists up and down the broken shards covering everything with blood.

Everyone always said she had 'had demons cast out of her' after that and I was always a bit scared of her because of the scars up her wrists.

She killed herself properly a few years later.

I don't believe in Demons but if I did I know who would be the demon-possessed in this story and it wouldn't be be Meg.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #213 of 346
Quote:
Originally Posted by ignis fatuus View Post

I would guess that like most things, 'real'-ness depends on the context of understanding. Quite alot of things can be true and false at the same time, no?

From many peoples perspective that would be true of demons. However, a million scientist's could spend the rest of their lives trying to convince me that they're just a sort of hallucination type experience and I would always know that they're not. I can never convince anybody, it's absurd or explained in some other way by people. I can accept that this world has things in it that are beyond my reasoning/understanding but I couldn't accept that without knowing for sure that they are outside of anything scientifically available. The supernatural is not at all well understood by people who have not experienced much in that realm. It's hilarious to me how ignorant the ignorant are and yet they really think, all too often, they know better. I wouldn't be who I am without my own experiences and I do not expect others to understand. I sure didn't before my experiences.
"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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post #214 of 346
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

From many peoples perspective that would be true of demons. However, a million scientist's could spend the rest of their lives trying to convince me that they're just a sort of hallucination type experience and I would always know that they're not. I can never convince anybody, it's absurd or explained in some other way by people. I can accept that this world has things in it that are beyond my reasoning/understanding but I couldn't accept that without knowing for sure that they are outside of anything scientifically available. The supernatural is not at all well understood by people who have not experienced much in that realm. It's hilarious to me how ignorant the ignorant are and yet they really think, all too often, they know better. I wouldn't be who I am without my own experiences and I do not expect others to understand. I sure didn't before my experiences.

Why assume they are demons though?

I have had numerous experiences of a nature which, were I inclined to the Christian (which I'm not in case there is any doubt) I would label demonic but as I'm not I just find them odd...
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #215 of 346
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

From many peoples perspective that would be true of demons. However, a million scientist's could spend the rest of their lives trying to convince me that they're just a sort of hallucination type experience and I would always know that they're not. .

ok, so how would you know that?
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post #216 of 346
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

When I was about 6 years old I used to live in a religious community.

One day, I saw an exorcism. The girl was called Meg, about 18 at the time I think. Maybe she had a drug problem but I didn't know that then obviously.

Anyway, the Big Cheese of the place where we lived was dragging here around by her hair a bit and she was screaming a lot. As you would I guess. They tried to keep me out of the way so I didn't see much of it but I watched from my room as she managed to get out of the house and run down the road.

The Head Honcho chased her a bit but she manage to get to a phone box. I thought she would try to phone for help but she didn't - she somehow managed to smash her hands through the glass and rub her wrists up and down the broken shards covering everything with blood.

Everyone always said she had 'had demons cast out of her' after that and I was always a bit scared of her because of the scars up her wrists.

She killed herself properly a few years later.

I don't believe in Demons but if I did I know who would be the demon-possessed in this story and it wouldn't be be Meg.


That's a really awful thing to have to be around and I'm really saddened that that girl killed herself.

I can't speak for exorcist's because I know next to nothing about them, save a few videos of them on YouTube or wherever I've seen. I dread to think the harm that people have caused by their so-called good intentions in this area.

I can know my self and my own experiences but I cannot speak about others or think I can help others and forcing help on others is completely out for me. I dare say a lot of it comes down to ignorance.
"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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post #217 of 346
Quote:
Originally Posted by ignis fatuus View Post

ok, so how would you know that?

Know what?

I know that what I have experienced is way outside of scientific thinking. If I ever come across stuff that includes stuff that I think is relevant then I'll be all ears. But that sure hasn't been the case so far.
"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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post #218 of 346
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

That's a really awful thing to have to be around and I'm really saddened that that girl killed herself.

I can't speak for exorcist's because I know next to nothing about them, save a few videos of them on YouTube or wherever I've seen. I dread to think the harm that people have caused by their so-called good intentions in this area.

I can know my self and my own experiences but I cannot speak about others or think I can help others and forcing help on others is completely out for me. I dare say a lot of it comes down to ignorance.

Yeah, it was a pretty bad thing but somehow as a kid it doesn't seem so bad if you see what I mean... it's later you realize it was.

Anyway, the point is that I don't think there is a need for demons. I've seen enough of humans to see that we pretty much have it covered...there's no real need for any incitement to evil.

But having said that, people are basically good. While I grew up in this community I believed - because I was taught - that people outside it (ie non Christians) were sinners and evil.

But it really isn't like that is it?

That's how I know demons do not exist. because there is so little real evil and because people are basically good. It's just that Christians don't believe this...
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #219 of 346
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Why assume they are demons though?

I have had numerous experiences of a nature which, were I inclined to the Christian (which I'm not in case there is any doubt) I would label demonic but as I'm not I just find them odd...

I actually agree with you here. What I have seen I have merely used the word demon to describe. What they actually really are....well I know what they look like and how they hop around and are terrifying and what color they are and how big and where they came from. If demon isn't the right word, I apologize.
"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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post #220 of 346
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

I actually agree with you here. What I have seen I have merely used the word demon to describe. What they actually really are....well I know what they look like and how they hop around and are terrifying and what color they are and how big and where they came from. If demon isn't the right word, I apologize.

No need to apologize. Not so many people know what these things are probably so you're ok!

They may be scary - the unknown often is - but that doesn't mean they are a threat.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #221 of 346
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Yeah, it was a pretty bad thing but somehow as a kid it doesn't seem so bad if you see what I mean... it's later you realize it was.

Anyway, the point is that I don't think there is a need for demons. I've seen enough of humans to see that we pretty much have it covered...there's no real need for any incitement to evil.

But having said that, people are basically good. While I grew up in this community I believed - because I was taught - that people outside it (ie non Christians) were sinners and evil.

But it really isn't like that is it?

That's how I know demons do not exist. because there is so little real evil and because people are basically good. It's just that Christians don't believe this...


For you they don't exist.

I believe in Jesus and demons equally as much as the other. There's plenty about all of this I find baffling, but those two things I know for sure.
"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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post #222 of 346
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

For you they don't exist.

I believe in Jesus and demons equally as much as the other. There's plenty about all of this I find baffling, but those two things I know for sure.

How though?

It's not the sort of thing one can be sure of. In fact, you can't really be sure of anything...
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #223 of 346
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Know what?

I know that what I have experienced is way outside of scientific thinking. If I ever come across stuff that includes stuff that I think is relevant then I'll be all ears. But that sure hasn't been the case so far.

how do you know what you have experienced is way outside the realm of science?
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post #224 of 346
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

How though?

It's not the sort of thing one can be sure of. In fact, you can't really be sure of anything...

I'm sure. You have to forget some things and other things you can't forget.
"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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post #225 of 346
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

I'm sure. You have to forget some things and other things you can't forget.

You can't be sure WHAT it was...
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #226 of 346
Quote:
Originally Posted by ignis fatuus View Post

how do you know what you have experienced is way outside the realm of science?

Because scientist's are freakin miles away from having a millionth of the jigsaw puzzle that is to use that boring term, super freakin natural. Are they finding crazy wonderful stuff out? Yep. But obviously I don't know everything about science and if they get within a billion miles of this stuff I'll post back!
"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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post #227 of 346
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

You can't be sure WHAT it was...

What what was?

I can't convince you that I'm completely sure, but I am. We could go on back and forth pointlessly and sadly most people or in high likelihood just about everyone, will have a different opinion. So be it. That's where I was once too. Gladly I'm not anymore.
"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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post #228 of 346

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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post #229 of 346
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

You can't be sure WHAT it was...

Because you said so? I suppose you are going to tell him what it was? Because you were there?
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #230 of 346
Quote:
Originally Posted by ignis fatuus View Post

Its rather odd though, that as a mere flawed human, I can come up with a more compassionate resolution to the problem of sin and decay in the universe than the Xian interpretation of Biblical God.

What I presume is therefore not that we/I am god, but if we are to believe Xian theology - I am better than God.

Probably false, - but it shows the deceptively low standard of their thinking, yet when presented with such an illogical reality, prefer to offer up their posteriors to the desert than resolve logically the obvious probable dilemma that I am not a greater thinker than God...

Xian interpretation of God produces a rabble of stone throwing Neanderthals that are hell bent on revenge - much like rednecks support of the war on Islam - perhaps thats why the two are indistinguishable.

Just forgive Satan when he is ready to repent. Infact, Xian God is prolonging indefinately the suffering of the human condition by being ignorant, proud and stubborn.

Suppose Satan were to go to God tomorrow and offer to throw in the sin stained towel and fully repent for his transgressions, ie to put the universe back into the state it was pre 'fall' - but if God is stubborn and refuses, then Satan vows to double his efforts to propogate sin and decay...

Getting warmer, I have been waiting for this to happen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius

In the Qur'an - which I find a rather purer book than the Bible - there is something called the 'Satanic Verses'. That idiot Rushdie drew on them for a somewhat execrable novel you might remember.

These verses seem to say that it is ok to worship certain idols - but there they are, right in the Qur'an.

Over the centuries, a whole school - many schools actually - of theology have grown up around this trying to explain it. The most favoured explanation is that the Devil is capable of pretending and fooling to the extent he can even insert items in Scripture.

but this has caused other theological problems. Problems which Islam (unlike Christianity) does not shy away from. The main one is this: if it is accepted that Satan can insert text into a Hoyt Scripture then how do we know which is from Satan and which is from God? Put another way: the non-Satanic verses might be the REAL Satanic verses...it is a hornet's nest.

Likewise with the Bible....say the Devil and demons exist. Say they can quote Scripture...how do we know which is from the Devil? Maybe it is Christianity that is the Devil's master plan?

Put another way: a devil appears in your room tonight - claims to be God with a 'message'. Odds are 99% of people will believe the demon in it's God guise because it is supernatural.

Makes you think eh?

Or maybe not...

And there it is. The same thing that pops up in nearly every thread that has this line of conversation. The person who is going to shut down all the Christians by saying they can know whether Satan is God or God is Satan. It never ceases to amaze me that they think it is somehow going to be the one line that makes any difference to the conversation. \

"God is evil, Satan is good and I cannot prove otherwise." Is a tired old line. And it does not spur conversation with me.

So, Not.

BANG!
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #231 of 346
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

"God is evil, Satan is good and I cannot prove otherwise." Is a tired old line. And it does not spur conversation with me.

Yes, this I think is the limit of our journey together.

Up to a point rationality, logic and 'religious' thought (sic) can walk a little way but after a while the Great Demon 'Faith' will surely appear and vanquish the spectre of the dread Rationality.

It reminds me of a scene in Woody Allen's "Everything you always wanted to know about sex..." - Woody is trying to shag a babe and the view is from the inside of his head with Burt Reynolds at the controls and various minions operating the brain's machinery.

At one point things start going wrong and then two security goons rush into the Brain control room restraining a Vicar saying "we caught him messing with the controls..."

When it comes to reason (and sex, which is far more related to this issue than one might think - but that's for another thread), Christianity is always "messing with the controls"..

As Nietzsche said "Faith is not wanting to know what is true..."
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #232 of 346
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Yes, this I think is the limit of our journey together.

Up to a point rationality, logic and 'religious' thought (sic) can walk a little way but after a while the Great Demon 'Faith' will surely appear and vanquish the spectre of the dread Rationality.

It reminds me of a scene in Woody Allen's "Everything you always wanted to know about sex..." - Woody is trying to shag a babe and the view is from the inside of his head with Burt Reynolds at the controls and various minions operating the brain's machinery.

At one point things start going wrong and then two security goons rush into the Brain control room restraining a Vicar saying "we caught him messing with the controls..."

When it comes to reason (and sex, which is far more related to this issue than one might think - but that's for another thread), Christianity is always "messing with the controls"..

As Nietzsche said "Faith is not wanting to know what is true..."

I always love it when people bring in movies or TV shows to prove their point. As if they somehow carry more weight in their mind than say the Bible or any other historical document.

How is faith a demon? Everyone has faith, you have to or you cannot operate. An I am not speaking of simple "religious faith" but faith in general.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
post #233 of 346
I think the 'faith demon' strikes when a very simple logical test shows that a believers position is untenably sketchy, and the believer defends his fragile position by refusing to engage, deceitfully using the false get-out of claiming there is nothing to advance.

I think think there is everything to advance when a simple logic test clearly demonstrates that under certain 'faith-based' positions - that Satan is controlling God.
[CENTER]Recedite, plebes. Obesa cantavit![/CENTER]
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[CENTER]Recedite, plebes. Obesa cantavit![/CENTER]
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post #234 of 346
I have to agree, "faith" is something we all share: "faith" that Christ is Lord, "faith" that my intellect has access to all that can affect me, etc. Philosopher Michael Polanyi and Thomas Kuhn both made important points as to the centrality of epistemology, and how dependent we are to our assumptions -- perspectival presuppositionalism, to quote Reformed theologian John Frame.

This is interesting as well:

Quote:
A missionary going to serve in another country is advised to make a thorough study of its culture. When I was preparing to go to India, and during my years there, I spent much time in trying to understand the whole complex of ideas and practices that make up what Western peoples during the past 150 years have called 'Hinduism.' (Hinduism is just as useless or useful a word as Europeanism might be in the mouth of a Japanese person summarizing everything thought and said in Europe from Pythagoras to Whitehead.) Obviously, I studied Indian religion and culture with the intellectual tools of a twentieth-century European. But with what tools could I study my own culture? There is a Chinese proverb that says, 'If you want a definition of water, don't ask a fish.' Indians had no word for 'Hinduism' until Europeans imposed it on them. They spoke of dharma - which is simply the ultimate principle of how things are and therefore the rule that should govern our lives. Until I had spent many years in India, I was an innocent specimen of modern European culture. I had learned from childhood through school and university how things really are, and it was on this basis that I could begin to understand and evaluate the world of dharma under the name of Hinduism. Where shall I find the stance from which I can study Europeanism? On the basis of what perceptions can I evaluate my own perceptions of'how things really are' perceptions that are part of my mental make-up from childhood?

As a young missionary, I was confident that the critical evaluations I made about Hindu beliefs and practices were securely founded on God's revelation in Christ. As I grew older, I learned to see that they were shaped more than I had realized by my own culture. And I could not have come to this critical stance in relation to my own culture without the experience of living in another, an Indian culture. The assumption of these chapters is that the gospel provides the stance from which all culture is to be evaluated; but the gospel [. . .] is always embodied in some cultural form. The typical apologetic for Christianity in our Western culture has been one that attempts to 'explain' it in the terms of our culture, to show that it is 'reasonable' in terms of our ultimate beliefs about how things really are. But what is meant by the word explain? We accept something as an explanation when it shows how an unexplained fact fits into the world as we already understand it. Explanation is related to the framework of understanding we inhabit, the firm structure of beliefs we never question, our picture of how things really are. Explanation puts a strange thing into a place where it fits and is no longer strange. Thus it comes about that one person can give a psychological explanation for a political stance and another a political explanation for a theory in psychology. Whether you accept the explanation depends upon the way in which you understand how things really are. What may be an explanation for one is no explanation for another. The question with which I am wrestling [. . .] is this: As people who are part of modern Western culture, with its confidence in the validity of its scientific methods, how can we move from the place where we explain the gospel in terms of our modern scientific world view to the place where we explain our modern scientific world view from the point of view of the gospel?

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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post #235 of 346
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmz View Post

I have to agree, "faith" is something we all share: "faith" that Christ is Lord, "faith" that my intellect has access to all that can affect me, etc. Philosopher Michael Polanyi and Thomas Kuhn both made important points as to the centrality of epistemology, and how dependent we are to our assumptions -- perspectival presuppositionalism, to quote Reformed theologian John Frame.

This is interesting as well:

ignis fatuus say, If man want definition of Christ, no ask Xian.

would that look better in bold red?

I looked up teh big word.
Funny man!

Quote:
Presuppositionalism is an ingenious, elaborate mental trap by which some otherwise extremely bright people manage to keep their minds locked inside the hardcore Christian box

Now that does look fantastic in red, dont you agree?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dmz

how can we move from the place where we explain the gospel in terms of our modern scientific world view to the place where we explain our modern scientific world view from the point of view of the gospel?

Fortunately, we managed to throw off those shackles about 500 years ago, we dont feel a pressing need to return to the dark ages.
[CENTER]Recedite, plebes. Obesa cantavit![/CENTER]
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[CENTER]Recedite, plebes. Obesa cantavit![/CENTER]
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post #236 of 346
Anyone read the Slash autobiography? He talks of all kinds of demons chasing him around - running naked and blood stained through a golf course with the little critters in hot pursuit - its quite amusing in places.
[CENTER]Recedite, plebes. Obesa cantavit![/CENTER]
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[CENTER]Recedite, plebes. Obesa cantavit![/CENTER]
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post #237 of 346
Quote:
Originally Posted by ignis fatuus View Post

I think the 'faith demon' strikes when a very simple logical test shows that a believers position is untenably sketchy, and the believer defends his fragile position by refusing to engage, deceitfully using the false get-out of claiming there is nothing to advance.

I think think there is everything to advance when a simple logic test clearly demonstrates that under certain 'faith-based' positions - that Satan is controlling God.

There is a false assumption being made in this thread. The Christian has no answer to my questions due to his inability to directly refute my impermeable position.

The fact is, the only place a further conversation has any liklihood of going from this position is into an argument. I have argued it before and the sputtering anger from some is not helpful. And others simply pick a very controversial view for the simple reason of causing said argument. Only theier hope is to cause the Christian to become the sputtering angry person.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
post #238 of 346
Do you ever actually question your belief based on logical arguments, historical inaccuracies, and the like? Or have you just set up a wall around your position and refuse to even consider the possibility that you're wrong?

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #239 of 346
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Do you ever actually question your belief based on logical arguments, historical inaccuracies, and the like? Or have you just set up a wall around your position and refuse to even consider the possibility that you're wrong?

Would you believe me if I said I did?
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
post #240 of 346
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

Would you believe me if I said I did?

No.

..
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
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