or Connect
AppleInsider › Forums › Other Discussion › AppleOutsider › PoliticalOutsider › The Bible --- Too liberal For Some
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

The Bible --- Too liberal For Some - Page 9

post #321 of 346
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimDreamworx View Post

Thank goodness someone here is defending the Koran!

Oh, wait, that wasn't the intention?

I don't think Frank likes the Qur'an very much - but no, I'm 99.99% sure he hasn't read it.

Most people actually take second-hand reports on virtually anything as Gospel (pardon the pun) if they agree with the source or agenda of the second-hand report.

So they don't really need to read the original do they? In many cases it would disturb the world view they work so hard to maintain.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #322 of 346
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

I don't think Frank likes the Qur'an very much - but no, I'm 99.99% sure he hasn't read it.

Most people actually take second-hand reports on virtually anything as Gospel (pardon the pun) if they agree with the source or agenda of the second-hand report.

So they don't really need to read the original do they? In many cases it would disturb the world view they work so hard to maintain.

Like a great many things, you are completely and utterly wrong on this.
I've read the Quran, and have a personal copy on the bookshelf 10 feet away from me.

You assume a number of things about me Sego, and while I find a number of the misconceptions about me on this board truly funny, you probably shouldn't do that.
The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
Reply
The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
Reply
post #323 of 346
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post

Like a great many things, you are completely and utterly wrong on this.
I've read the Quran, and have a personal copy on the bookshelf 10 feet away from me.

You assume a number of things about me Sego, and while I find a number of the misconceptions about me on this board truly funny, you probably shouldn't do that.

Ok, I stand corrected then. Actually it was a low shot regardless and I apologize unreservedly - I have no excuse, I retract it!!
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #324 of 346
Ah, don't worry about it. Everybody makes mistakes.

What is extraordinary is that last night, I sat down to watch a "Christmas" DVD given to me by a friend.

As I watched The Star of Bethlehem, I couldn't help thinking how this short one-hour piece (by an American lawyer searching for the real Star of Bethlehem) so perfectly encapsulates what we've been discussing here.

There's the question of whether the Bible can really be trusted on an obscure detail like a passing star, the use of extra-biblical sources to verify the biblical account, whether science can confirm that a star really led people from Babylon to Bethlehem (and how a star could even 'stop' overhead the small town in the first place.)

Even franksargent's quest for a mathematical proof is addressed, given that you can't get more mathematical than the inner workings of the solar system.

After watching it, I started to wonder how my friend knew I was posting in this thread.

Just for the disclaimer, I have no financial or other personal interest in this film/documentary.
The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
Reply
The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
Reply
post #325 of 346
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post

Ah, don't worry about it. Everybody makes mistakes.

What is extraordinary is that last night, I sat down to watch a "Christmas" DVD given to me by a friend.

As I watched The Star of Bethlehem, I couldn't help thinking how this short one-hour piece (by an American lawyer searching for the real Star of Bethlehem) so perfectly encapsulates what we've been discussing here.

There's the question of whether the Bible can really be trusted on an obscure detail like a passing star, the use of extra-biblical sources to verify the biblical account, whether science can confirm that a star really led people from Babylon to Bethlehem (and how a star could even 'stop' overhead the small town in the first place.)

Even franksargent's quest for a mathematical proof is addressed, given that you can't get more mathematical than the inner workings of the solar system.

After watching it, I started to wonder how my friend knew I was posting in this thread.

Just for the disclaimer, I have no financial or other personal interest in this film/documentary.

Great, we're cool then!

The film looks quite interesting....I'm not sure how I feel generally about the idea of searching for Biblical Proofs from science or history though...

I guess it depends on what the subject is - I can see how one could legitimately search for something tangible like Noah's Ark (I think something is going on with that btw, there is quite a lot of speculative data that has been researched) but a miracle such as the Star must have been if it had occurred seems different...

The event in the Nativity story only has legitimacy if it WAS a miracle (ie, not an event which would have happened anyway or was a regular occurrence) and if it WAS then there is no point looking for any possible evidence maybe as God can circumvent the laws of nature..


Actually not sure where I'm going with this...might have it all wrong!!
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #326 of 346
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Great, we're cool then!

The film looks quite interesting....I'm not sure how I feel generally about the idea of searching for Biblical Proofs from science or history though...

I guess it depends on what the subject is - I can see how one could legitimately search for something tangible like Noah's Ark (I think something is going on with that btw, there is quite a lot of speculative data that has been researched) but a miracle such as the Star must have been if it had occurred seems different...

The event in the Nativity story only has legitimacy if it WAS a miracle (ie, not an event which would have happened anyway or was a regular occurrence) and if it WAS then there is no point looking for any possible evidence maybe as God can circumvent the laws of nature..


Actually not sure where I'm going with this...might have it all wrong!!

I agree with the bolded point to an extent. It is possible that the action that occurred to cause the star to appear was set from the beginning. Or it could be that the star was made right at the moment it was needed and then removed. Whatever the case it makes for an interesting subject that we will likely never know the answer to, and in the grand scheme of things, is not all that critical.

I saw another show years ago that had a space faring crew that had reached a far galaxy and they came across a solar system that had been destroyed by a supernova. Once they had worked out the timeline and the position the star would have been in the sky it directly coincided with the approx time of the birth of Jesus. Another interesting theory... Only saw the show once and I cannot recall what it was called.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
post #327 of 346
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Great, we're cool then!

The film looks quite interesting....I'm not sure how I feel generally about the idea of searching for Biblical Proofs from science or history though...

I guess it depends on what the subject is - I can see how one could legitimately search for something tangible like Noah's Ark (I think something is going on with that btw, there is quite a lot of speculative data that has been researched) but a miracle such as the Star must have been if it had occurred seems different...

The event in the Nativity story only has legitimacy if it WAS a miracle (ie, not an event which would have happened anyway or was a regular occurrence) and if it WAS then there is no point looking for any possible evidence maybe as God can circumvent the laws of nature..


Actually not sure where I'm going with this...might have it all wrong!!

I had always assumed that the "Wise Men" were navigating by the stars -- that sort of thing. Seems reasonable given the timeframe. Hell, if the Polynesians could do it...

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #328 of 346
A Long article on the project that this thread is about.
http://www.alternet.org/story/143506...iberal_bias%22
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
post #329 of 346
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

A Long article on the project that this thread is about.
http://www.alternet.org/story/143506...iberal_bias%22

I actually think that these tossers should just get on with it...rewrite the Bible for whatever right-wing crap these losers can come up with ('Free Market' right - Christ's message has never been so brilliantly encapsulated) and then we will all know where we stand.

Give them Christianity - it is a festering load of useless crap anyway now thanks to their efforts of the last 2000 years - and it frees the ground for the emergence of 'something else'....

That 'something else' could be based on the teachings of that Jewish bloke from Nazareth of 2000 years ago but it would be free from the brawling obscenity that has disgraced human history under his name for far too long....
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #330 of 346
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

I actually think that these tossers should just get on with it...rewrite the Bible for whatever right-wing crap these losers can come up with ('Free Market' right - Christ's message has never been so brilliantly encapsulated) and then we will all know where we stand.

Give them Christianity - it is a festering load of useless crap anyway now thanks to their efforts of the last 2000 years - and it frees the ground for the emergence of 'something else'....

That 'something else' could be based on the teachings of that Jewish bloke from Nazareth of 2000 years ago but it would be free from the brawling obscenity that has disgraced human history under his name for far too long....

The main problem with any religion is the people in it.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
post #331 of 346
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

The main problem with any religion is the people in it.

It's 'a' problem for sure....
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #332 of 346
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

It's 'a' problem for sure....

Well, the common problem is probably a better way to say it...
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
post #333 of 346
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

Well, the common problem is probably a better way to say it...

There are many, many problems.

The people involved with religion may be a problem if they are bashing you over the head with a Bible, discriminating against women, passing anti-gay laws or supporting hate-crimes or even buggering the choirboys...

On another level they can even start wars and kill hundreds of thousands of people...all a problem to be sure....

But it is kind of 'built-in' now...so it's not as if it's 'gone wrong'...more like running smoothly....not such a problem looked at it from their own point of view.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #334 of 346
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

There are many, many problems.

The people involved with religion may be a problem if they are bashing you over the head with a Bible, discriminating against women, passing anti-gay laws or supporting hate-crimes or even buggering the choirboys...

You are focusing on one religion here, and that is not even close to the case. Absolutely, people have done bad things, as "Christians". I don't see your string of things as being reserved by one religious group over another.

Quote:
On another level they can even start wars and kill hundreds of thousands of people...all a problem to be sure....

Wars over religious reasons, are we looking to the past now or are you trying to make another point?

Quote:
But it is kind of 'built-in' now...so it's not as if it's 'gone wrong'...more like running smoothly....not such a problem looked at it from their own point of view.

Really? You see this as being the status quo for all religious groups? If the foundation of a religion has been distorted, politicized, or otherwise hijacked it has "gone wrong". Period. Even if the track record is long. Of course, if all a person is looking for is something to make them feel good on Sunday, and to justify their being rich while not helping those less fortunate then they have missed the point as well. This is the main problem in the US that I can see with Christians.

All that being said, I am not clear whose point of view you are writing about however? Are you only focused in on Christian groups, or is this pointed at a wider audience?

I hope your evening is going well, Just watched the Portland Trailblazers win their season opener.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
post #335 of 346
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

All that being said, I am not clear whose point of view you are writing about however? Are you only focused in on Christian groups, or is this pointed at a wider audience?

Across the board.

If you take the original founder's experience as being X and their subsequent teaching as being Y then we could make this formula:

Religion = All letters - X - Y

All religions.

Whatever religion actually is, it is never the teaching of the alleged founders. time, decay, corruption and human nature see to that.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #336 of 346
segovius, what am I going to do with you? The teachings of Christ have not changed -- nor have the teachings of Paul, nor has the Masoretic text, etc.

There's just no evidence for this.



Typos? sure.

Variations in the manuscripts that are footnoted in most Bibles? Yep.



The rest is nothing more or less than casting aspersions -- it just isn't founded in the facts.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #337 of 346
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Across the board.

If you take the original founder's experience as being X and their subsequent teaching as being Y then we could make this formula:

Religion = All letters - X - Y

All religions.

Whatever religion actually is, it is never the teaching of the alleged founders. time, decay, corruption and human nature see to that.

I can see your point, but I don't fully agree. The teachings are there to be seen by any who wish to know what is really said.

People generally want to hear that their religion is going to make thier life better, cause them to become rich or happy, or in some way improve their physical standing in this world. When the reality of what is required does not match their wants they move on to a "better church" that "meets their needs". Some figure out that their needs is not what it is all about, others never do.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
post #338 of 346
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmz View Post

segovius, what am I going to do with you? The teachings of Christ have not changed -- nor have the teachings of Paul, nor has the Masoretic text, etc.

There's just no evidence for this.



Typos? sure.

Variations in the manuscripts that are footnoted in most Bibles? Yep.



The rest is nothing more or less than casting aspersions -- it just isn't founded in the facts.

I hear he likes nymphos and alcohol...

What is the point though?

If being a good "christian" means that you think Jesus would be pleased with the gay hating, creationism, non-thinking, authoritarian, cowering, war mongering right-wing bravado fascisms (and the free market haahaha) - then we might as well ditch the teachings of Jesus and start again.

Because it sure hasn't worked.

Because
[CENTER]Recedite, plebes. Obesa cantavit![/CENTER]
Reply
[CENTER]Recedite, plebes. Obesa cantavit![/CENTER]
Reply
post #339 of 346
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmz View Post

The teachings of Christ have not changed -- nor have the teachings of Paul

Snip...

That's all you need right there (though there is much more); Jesus and Paul's teachings are by no means the same thing and in many ways are diametrically opposed.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #340 of 346
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Snip...

That's all you need right there (though there is much more); Jesus and Paul's teachings are by no means the same thing and in many ways are diametrically opposed.

Okie.


Dokie.







In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #341 of 346
Hey, I'll butt my head against the wall.

Jesus and Paul's teachings address different audiences. Jesus was teaching the House of Israel that He was their long-promised Messiah. He confined those teachings to Jews, with a few exceptions along the way.

Paul addresses his teachings to the wider Christian church. Jews and Gentiles in one body, which did not come into being until the Day of Pentecost.

So of course there are differences in topic and focus. But Paul's teachings flow directly from the substance and theology behind Jesus' teachings and, of course, the fulfillment of the Old Testament, which Paul was an expert on.
The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
Reply
The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
Reply
post #342 of 346
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmz View Post

Okie.

Dokie.


The wall's a good idea... it might dislodge some cobwebs and clear some space. Perhaps the following from the Bible itself can be inserted into the lacuna thus created:

Quote:
I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel

Galatians 1:6

Paul is explicitly claiming here that the Church is in receipt of a Different Gospel. One he claims is wrong.

Where did it come from? Luckily we know: the disciples of Christ.

At this point there is a simple choice of two differing Gospels; one from People who knew Christ and were his chosen representatives, another later one from someone who never met him.

But there's more:

Quote:
For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough. But I do not think I am in the least inferior to those "super-apostles".

2 Corinthians 11:4-5

Again, Paul is claiming that 'someone' preaches a different Jesus and a 'different' Gospel. He again claims that this Church 'puts up with that'...ie, the 'different teaching' has a foothold.

Where does this teaching come from: again, Paul clearly tells us: the Disciples. He even adds 'super' sarcastically because he is so annoyed by it.

I could go on but there is probably little point...
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #343 of 346






The issues with the Church at Galatia and the Corinthians are pretty standard fare -- I've even heard it preached in Bible Churches.


Quote:
1:6–7 DESERTION FROM GOD
Paul used the word “astonished” (1:6) in an ironic way. The “soon” (1:6) could be paraphrased “easily.” Paul was not referring to the time since their conversion. He was amazed that they could slip so quickly and easily into the lies of another gospel. They had deserted a person, not a doctrine (“from God,” 1:6). The issue was personal. They had left the one who called them. Paul had described the context of their calling in 1:3–5. The Corinthians faced a similar temptation to follow another Jesus and a different gospel (1:6; cf. 2 Cor. 11:4). The words “turning away,” or “deserting,” is used elsewhere to describe a military revolt. This desertion was in process; it was not yet an accomplished fact. The two results of the problem among the Galatians were: (1) the believers were being troubled and (2) the true gospel was being distorted. These are two areas that Paul developed throughout the letter.

1Hughes, R. B., & Laney, J. C. (2001). Tyndale concise Bible commentary. The Tyndale reference library (581). Wheaton, Ill.: Tyndale House Publishers.


Verses 6-9
Here the apostle comes to the body of the epistle; and he begins it with a more general reproof of these churches for their unsteadiness in the faith, which he afterwards, in some following parts of it, enlarges more upon. Here we may observe,
I.How much he was concerned at their defection: I marvel, etc. It filled him at once with the greatest surprise and sorrow. Their sin and folly were that they did not hold fast the doctrine of Christianity as it had been preached to them, but suffered themselves to be removed from the purity and simplicity of it. And there were several things by which their defection was greatly aggravated; as, 1. That they were removed from him that had called them; not only from the apostle, who had been the instrument of calling them into the fellowship of the gospel, but from God himself, by whose order and direction the gospel was preached to them, and they were invited to a participation of the privileges of it: so that herein they had been guilty of a great abuse of his kindness and mercy towards them.2

2Henry, M. (1996, c1991). Matthew Henry's commentary on the whole Bible : Complete and unabridged in one volume (Ga 1:6). Peabody: Hendrickson.

Not to quote-bomb you, but issues with the Church trying to slide off into syncretism or Judiasing are a reoccurring theme. (Important to note that, yes, some of these differences DID end up having to be reconciled in the first council in Jerusalem.)

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #344 of 346
One more thing... this is a little bit better summary:

Quote:
Overview
Paul’s brief letter to the Galatians is one of the New Testament’s earliest, probably written around a.d. 49. Like Romans, it explores the relationship of the Mosaic Law to the Gospel of Jesus Christ and, like Romans, concludes that Law was temporary. It has now been replaced by a better, more effective way of relating to God through the Spirit.
Also like Romans, Galatians is concerned with the experience of holiness, and how God’s people can live a righteous life. Paul shows us here that, though it may initially seem frightening to remove the strictures of Law, God’s better way produces a righteousness which the Mosaic Code could never produce. Christ has set us free for freedom—not freedom from righteousness, but freedom to be truly good (Gal. 5:1). This little book has proven exciting to generation after generation of Christians, who through it have realized that they are saved by faith—and that the Christian life is lived by faith as well!
\t
Quote:
Gospel. The “Gospel” is mentioned a number of times in the first chapter of this letter. The Greek word simply means “good news.” But Paul intended us to understand a specific content: there is an unmixed “Gospel of grace” which Paul preached, and an “other gospel” which is a mixture of faith and works, grace and law. In this little book we and our students are helped to understand the real Gospel, the Gospel of grace.

1

1Richards, L., & Richards, L. O. (1987). The teacher's commentary (897). Wheaton, Ill.: Victor Books.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #345 of 346
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmz View Post

The issues with the Church at Galatia and the Corinthians are pretty standard fare -- I've even heard it preached in Bible Churches.

Not to quote-bomb you, but issues with the Church trying to slide off into syncretism or Judiasing are a reoccurring theme. (Important to note that, yes, some of these differences DID end up having to be reconciled in the first council in Jerusalem.)

You post apologetics from secondary sources - very poor.

We are talking primary sources here and let's limit evidence from there please - unless you want me to start posting the full Christological exegesis of the Shafi'i school.

OF COURSE you'll hear it preached in Churches - they have to come up with an explanation for any hapless sheep who might actually READ the Bible and have a capacity for rational thought (could happen - unlikely I grant but they have to cover the bases)...

Unfortunately, what washes for the sheep in any given flock may not actually survive more rigorous analysis.

Put it this way:

There is no BIBLICAL EVIDENCE that the issues between Paul and the Disciples were solely reducible to a Judaic/gentile conflict - and even if they were, that would still mean my assertion that Paul taught a different doctrine is valid - unless you want to argue that Christ held Paul's view and it was the Disciples in error. Which you probably do...
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #346 of 346
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

You post apologetics from secondary sources - very poor.

We are talking primary sources here and let's limit evidence from there please - unless you want me to start posting the full Christological exegesis of the Shafi'i school.

...unless you want to argue that Christ held Paul's view and it was the Disciples in error. Which you probably do...

Apologetics -- no that's not apologetics, that's exegesis -- and Matthew Henry is about as vanilla a commentary as you can get. Besides, the Church at large, whether Orthodox, Roman, Protestant etc., is in agreement on what happened. (which is what I posted) As to Christ holding Paul's view -- I'd have to imagine it was the same, after having approached him the way He did.

On what the disciples "thought" or taught -- you forget that after the crucifixion, Christianity essentially consisted of 11 scared Jews in a room somewhere. Jews who still didn't understand that the Gentiles were in on salvation -- the same Jews who assumed, after hearing Christ speak of the destruction of Jerusalem, that that literally meant the end of the world. This was a huge issue, borne out by numerous run-ins on whether to hold on to the ceremonial law, as well as the priesthood; Peter not wanting to enter a gentile home, and so on. All of which culminated with Paul and the other Apostles meeting in Jerusalem and finalizing what should be expected from the new converts:

Quote:
To the Gentile believers in Antioch, Syria and Cilicia:

Greetings.

24 We have heard that some went out from us without our authorization and disturbed you, troubling your minds by what they said. 25 So we all agreed to choose some men and send them to you with our dear friends Barnabas and Paul— 26 men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. 27 Therefore we are sending Judas and Silas to confirm by word of mouth what we are writing. 28 It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not to burden you with anything beyond the following requirements: 29 You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things.

Farewell. 1

1The Holy Bible : New International Version. 1996, c1984 (electronic ed.) (Ac 15:23-29). Grand Rapids: Zondervan.

That being a major issue, but I can't downplay the Greek influence, general assumptions dealing with pagan metaphysics, etc., either. You see that with the gnostic problem, from nearly the very beginning.

But as for Christ contradicting Paul -- that simply isn't in the text.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: PoliticalOutsider
AppleInsider › Forums › Other Discussion › AppleOutsider › PoliticalOutsider › The Bible --- Too liberal For Some