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Mossberg: Windows 7 narrows the gap with Apple's Mac OS X - Page 11

post #401 of 465
10/9/09 at 10:55am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bloodshotrollin'red View Post

Been an Apple user since lle, (very nearly a Lisa owner) also one of the very first UK Mac owners in 1984. Now I think my time with Apple is over.

Apple wont miss me, but I will miss Apple.

I must be missing something ... if you're going to miss Apple ... why are you leaving? ..... care to explain?

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post #402 of 465
10/9/09 at 10:57am
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Originally Posted by teckstud View Post

I mean what is original anymore? Really?

How well technology is/ideas are implemented.
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post #403 of 465
10/9/09 at 10:58am
Quote:
Originally Posted by teckstud View Post

Sorry to everyone if my writing was far from perfect, I was at work and extremely busy today.


I'm impressed, even 'tho you were "at work and extremely busy today" you found time to read and post many, many times. Your boss must be so proud.

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post #404 of 465
10/9/09 at 11:03am
Quote:
Originally Posted by yuusharo View Post

In the end, its just a matter of who you're comfortable with. I'm personally more comfortable knowing the exact parts in all my machines and what to replace them with, while you're more comfortable not having to worry about it at all and pay the premium for that luxury.

In my case, and in many others, I suspect, I treat my computer like my car. I don't care HOW it works, only that it DOES work and gives me the least amount of trouble and the most amount of pleasure possible. That's why I choose Mac.

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post #405 of 465
10/9/09 at 11:03am
Quote:
Originally Posted by yuusharo View Post

Actually, many of my machines are AMD, not Intel xD. Although the new Core i7s released last money are pretty tempting...

If you want to use your rather flawed analogy, then put it in this perspective - I love Lexus. They are amazing machines, sleek, luxurious, and sexy. Its one of my ultimate dream cars.... but I don't have anywhere NEAR the money to be able to afford one. Sure, they purr like kittens, but they cost just too much to come anywhere close to justifiable.

Instead, I look at my lower budget and think to myself, "What exactly do I need a car for?" All I really need is something that will be reliable, last a long time, and simply get me to where I want to go. That is when I look at the Fords, Hondas, and Toyotas of the world... the Windows 7 PCs.

They're not my dream machines, but they get the job done well and I'm happy with them.

Spoken by the person who holds a Lexus as his dream car.

Nuff said.
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post #406 of 465
10/9/09 at 11:06am
Quote:
Originally Posted by yuusharo View Post

Jeez, where's your evidence of any of this? I'm at least speaking from the perspective of having used both for quite a long time, and have to say that both machines have their flaws as well as their strong points. Since you apparently like playing this game:

1. You made my point quite clear - Macs are really just PCs in nice enclosures. When you get to the crux of it, Macs really don't differentiate between PCs much anymore. Artificial differences, like the use of EFI as opposed to BIOS, are really the only things, and that's because Apple likes to be stubborn about that.

2. This opinion, I can promise you, was pulled directly out of your butt and slapped onto the keyboard. Of course there are adherent application guidelines - why do you think Safari 3 on Windows failed so miserably? Apple thought it would be smart to port over with Mac guidelines, and everyone rejected it, even Mac users that use Windows. iTunes gets a lot of heat because of its Carbon-based origins and Apples refusal to build a native application. There's obviously less enforcement about this rule only because there's so much more software available for Windows, but ever since Vista and now Windows 7, developers have been strict about following UAC and UI interface guidelines in order to make their application blend well with the operating system.

DLLs? They're just the plist equivilant on a Mac. Management could be better, but under Windows 7, its not the issue it used to be. Haven't had a single problem in almost a year since using the beta.

Antiquated file system? Let me ask you, what exactly is the advantage of HFS+ over NTFS? Wow, now I can put quotation marks in my file names. Hurrah. If Apple decided to implement something like ZFS into its operating systems, you might have an argument there. But alas, they continue to use their own choice that doesn't operate nicely with Windows or other Unix-based operating systems like BSD or Linux.

Bad memory management, corruption, no integration with other service applications, blah blah blah. Explain what you mean by "bad memory management." Have you used a PC since Windows 98? I've got a hint for you - its gotten better xD. And "no integration with other service applications" I don't understand in the least. You just made that term up, didn't you? Media Center integrates with Home Server, allowing you to stream recorded TV shows to any computer you own. Libraries integrates with Home Group, allowing you to find any file on any networked PC, similar to Mac's spotlight integration with network PCs first introduced in Snow Leopard. Windows Live Movie Maker lets you create videos and upload them directly to YouTube. Windows Live Essentials integrates with your Live account, allowing you to post your photos for all to see and sync them back with your PC, ala iLife.

You're chasing a red haring, my friend. No matter how you look at it, Windows 7 is a very comparable operating system. Its obviously not going to change your mind, but in the minds of anyone who's actually tried it, its a fairly decent offering.

Looked from a far away distance, everything looks the same. It takes a sharper mind than yours to see the, quite significant difference, I am afraid.
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post #407 of 465
10/9/09 at 11:10am
Quote:
Originally Posted by buceta View Post

Spoken by the person who holds a Lexus as his dream car.

Nuff said.

BWM, Fierro, Ferrari, Bugati, substitute with whatever one you'd like. It was your flawed analogy to begin with, mind you.

I look at it simply - say I wanted to build a render farm of Core i7 machines. I could buy several Mac Pros at $2400+ each, or Xserves at $2999+ each, and run something like Compressor ($800). *OR* I could buy several Windows 7 machines for $1200 with the same specs and run Pro Coder 3 ($400) and achieve the same net effect.

That's one cost-saving advantage Apple doesn't have.

Quote:
Originally Posted by buceta View Post

Looked from a far away distance, everything looks the same. It takes a sharper mind than yours to see the, quite significant difference, I am afraid.

How many times must I repeat myself? I'm a Mac user. I've been using one since February of last year. It serves its purpose well and have never had a problem with it. I also have a PC with Windows 7 on it, used primarily as my main OS and gaming machine, which I plan to upgrade to Core i7 sometime next year. I've never had a problem with it. Also in my care is a Dell Dimension 2400, a 5-year-old PC running Windows 7 beautifully. Its the perfect system for my mother to read her email and surf the web without worry about security or popups.

So guess what? Windows 7 is working great, and the Mac is working great. Why? Because they're *both* great in their own right, and each has a specific purpose. If my mother were doing multimedia stuff, I'd switch her to the Mac. Since she doesn't, there's no reason to spend $1200+ on a computer for her, when her old $600 does just a good of a job even 5 years later.
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post #408 of 465
10/9/09 at 11:19am
Quote:
Originally Posted by azentropy View Post


It is now the same for me with Mac/PC's. In order to get the raw performance of a i7 based PC which are in the $800 range the only choice for new is a $2500 Mac. .


Show me, with links, the exact specs you get with $800 for PC. Include everything, monitor, etc. ... then maybe I'll have to rethink my position. Until then it's all just opinions, not facts.

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post #409 of 465
10/9/09 at 11:24am
Quote:
Originally Posted by yuusharo View Post

No one said it was. The Mac is doing exceptionally well and continues to outpace its other direct competitors (HP, Dell...) year after year. The profit margins on a Mac are so high that Apple is just racking in all the money, while other manufacturers are passing off major decreases in sales as a "good thing," saying they haven't lost as much money as they thought they would.

Still, you can't use the word "dominate" when describing the Macintosh.

Please don't be like TeckDud and "put words in my mouth". Show me where I used the word "dominate". I'm waiting.

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post #410 of 465
10/9/09 at 11:25am
Quote:
Originally Posted by newbee View Post

Show me, with links, the exact specs you get with $800 for PC. Include everything, monitor, etc. ... then maybe I'll have to rethink my position. Until then it's all just opinions, not facts.

Why does he have to include a monitor? What if he's just replacing or re-purposing an old computer, and wants to use the same peripherals? That's not something you can overlook - that's an advantage PCs have over Macs. In short, you only have to buy the parts you actually need, rather than the package as a whole.

There's no doubt that Apple makes excellent All-In-One machines, and for many, if not most users, that's really all you need if you can handle the extra cost. But for practical purposes, they don't work for a lot of people. If I wanted to upgrade my PC to Core i7, I would just need a new motherboard, RAM, and the processor, all totaling around $500. But for a Mac, I'd have to buy a brand new tower, since Apple won't sell me motherboards or CPUs. You're looking at $2700 minimum.
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post #411 of 465
10/9/09 at 11:28am
Quote:
Originally Posted by newbee View Post

Show me, with links, the exact specs you get with $800 for PC. Include everything, monitor, etc. ... then maybe I'll have to rethink my position. Until then it's all just opinions, not facts.

We've seen this a thousand times before. You can always build a cheaper PC.

He'll pull the same speed CPU as te Xeon used in the Mac Pro but won't address the extra features that it has. He'll choose the cheapest MoBo instead of comparing it to a high-end MoBo designed for a proper workstation. None of it will be the quality that Apple would offer and support will have to come from each differet componet vendor on your dime if something has to be mailed in to be replaced (assuming you correctly diagnosed the faulty part).

That is all well and good if that is what he wants, but it doesn't fit most people's needs. Even if Apple made the elusive xMac it would still be more than expensive than any home built PC do to support costs, Green costs, etc.
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post #412 of 465
10/9/09 at 11:31am
Quote:
Originally Posted by yuusharo View Post

Why does he have to include a monitor? What if he's just replacing or re-purposing an old computer, and wants to use the same peripherals? That's not something you can overlook - that's an advantage PCs have over Macs. In short, you only have to buy the parts you actually need, rather than the package as a whole.

I would have thought that would be obvious, but not to you , I guess. If you're going to compare prices between two items, it MIGHT be fair to point out everything you get with both choices, no?

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post #413 of 465
10/9/09 at 11:44am
Quote:
Originally Posted by newbee View Post

I would have thought that would be obvious, but not to you , I guess. If you're going to compare prices between two items, it MIGHT be fair to point out everything you get with both choices, no?

But it is fair, my friend. Its indeed fair to compare the fact that you can build a Windows 7 PC with comparable, if not equal, specs to a Mac Pro tower for far less money. Its also fair to point out the fact that Apple only sells three "headless" devices: the Mac Pro ($2700), the Xserve ($3000), or the Mac Mini ($600), none of which hit the sweet spot of a mid-range Mac, something people have been begging for for years.

I could look around my office and see a beautiful 24" display that doubles as an HDTV. I very much love that screen, and would like a brand new system that will let me edit video and play my games on it. On the Mac side, the *minimum* offering would have to be a Mac Pro, which is extremely expensive and out of my league. On the other hand, I have a working PC case and power supply, along with some spare hard drives. For a minimal investment, I could tear apart the guts of that computer, put in new components, and be up and running with a Windows 7 tower in no time. Why should I spend extra money for an All-In-One, and essentially buy a new monitor that is permanently tied to that single computer, when I can just use what I already own and save $$$?

If I were in a situation that required me to use Macs, for example a production house that uses Final Cut Studio exclusively, then obviously the Mac would be the only choice. If I were also in a situation where a friend who is willing to spend money for a machine that he can rely on with excellent customer support, I would also steer him towards Apple. But if that same friend asked me about a $600 laptop he wanted or a $300 netbook and both were running Windows 7, I'd say that's plenty that he needs and will still love it.
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post #414 of 465
10/9/09 at 11:49am
Quote:
Originally Posted by yuusharo View Post

BWM, Fierro, Ferrari, Bugati, substitute with whatever one you'd like. It was your flawed analogy to begin with, mind you.

I look at it simply - say I wanted to build a render farm of Core i7 machines. I could buy several Mac Pros at $2400+ each, or Xserves at $2999+ each, and run something like Compressor ($800). *OR* I could buy several Windows 7 machines for $1200 with the same specs and run Pro Coder 3 ($400) and achieve the same net effect.

That's one cost-saving advantage Apple doesn't have.

Even if your prices are correct your conclusion is wrong, especially when developers start taking advantage of grand central dispatch and OpenCL for leveraging multiple cores. By then you will be able to achieve with one Mac Pro the same performance as multiple PC machines.
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post #415 of 465
10/9/09 at 11:49am
Quote:
Originally Posted by yuusharo View Post

That has more to do with which OEM you do business with. In this case, Microsoft wouldn't be of any help to you regardless. The ones you'd have to compare to with Apple are the Dells and HPs of the world.

I do agree that Apple's technical support seems to be one of the best in the industry. As long as you're under warranty, they'll fix just about any issue you have with no questions asked. I love how they swapped out my original iPhone 3G last year after I complained about poor cellular reception. I didn't even need to turn the phone on to show them - they just replaced it on the spot! That's good customer service.

However, since I'm capable of building my own systems, I've found it more cost-effective to build the machine myself and service any replacements myself. I've saved money, but at the cost of me figuring out all my issues. That works for me. And what you do works for you.

In the end, its just a matter of who you're comfortable with. I'm personally more comfortable knowing the exact parts in all my machines and what to replace them with, while you're more comfortable not having to worry about it at all and pay the premium for that luxury.

Exactly. I don't have time to do what you do, and Apple does it very well with (for) me.
M$oft, HP and others, not so.
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post #416 of 465
10/9/09 at 11:51am
Quote:
Originally Posted by yuusharo View Post

But it is fair, my friend. Its indeed fair to compare the fact that you can build a Windows 7 PC with comparable, if not equal, specs to a Mac Pro tower for far less money.

Show me a high-end workstation from any major PC vendor that is cheaper than off the shelf cheap components? You are paying for many thing when you buy a pre-made PC. If a PC vendor doesn't offer the machine you want you go to the next one or build your own.
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post #417 of 465
10/9/09 at 11:53am
Quote:
Originally Posted by yuusharo View Post

Why should I spend extra money for an All-In-One, and essentially buy a new monitor that is permanently tied to that single computer, when I can just use what I already own and save $$$?

Because you won't be saving a lot of money but you will lose software-hardware integration, support and reliability.
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post #418 of 465
10/9/09 at 12:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by buceta View Post

Even if your prices are correct your conclusion is wrong, especially when developers start taking advantage of grand central dispatch and OpenCL for leveraging multiple cores. By then you will be able to achieve with one Mac Pro the same performance as multiple PC machines.

Eh, I've seen what similar technologies, like CUDA and Stream, can do, and at the moment I'm not impressed. The most it does is offload some of the work off the CPU, allowing you to maybe push a few more tasks simultaneously. It will be useful going forward, but with CPUs as powerful as they are these days, the difference is marginal. Besides, OpenCL is just that - an open standard. There's nothing preventing Microsoft from integrating it in the future.

You're computer will be more efficient, but it won't have the same performance as "multiple PC machines" in a single Mac Pro. That's just silly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quantz View Post

Exactly. I don't have time to do what you do, and Apple does it very well with (for) me.
M$oft, HP and others, not so.

And you know what? I couldn't agree with you more. I said earlier that I'm *very* impressed how Apple handled my iPhone 3G replacement when I told them the reception was bad. I didn't even need to prove it to them, they just fixed the problem by giving me a new phone. If that's the kind of customer care they offer with their computers, I'd say Mac owners are very fortunate ^_^.

Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Show me a high-end workstation from any major PC vendor that is cheaper than off the shelf cheap components? You are paying for many thing when you buy a pre-made PC. If a PC vendor doesn't offer the machine you want you go to the next one or build your own.

I think you read my post wrong, friend. I said you can *build* machines far cheaper than anyone else, Apple or others. I didn't say off-the-shelf PCs are cheaper than the ones you build yourself, although you can still buy them for less than typical high-end Macs, and you have the choice of what you actually want to buy. You can save about $300 and buy it without a monitor, for example.

Quote:
Originally Posted by buceta View Post

Because you won't be saving a lot of money but you will lose software-hardware integration, support and reliability.

Again with this "software-hardware integration" FUD. You're not making yourself clear about this, despite being called out on it numerous times now. Imagine the integration an iPhone has with iTunes, and how seamless they synchronize together. Now imagine being able to do that with ANY device you own, and have just as seamless of an experience. That's what Windows 7's new Sync Center and Devices categories do. They go beyond iTunes because they work with anything. This same technology is built into "Microsoft Sync" enabled vehicles, like the ones built into Fords. Either through a usb connector or bluetooth, you can hook up ANY media playback device to the car and it just works. Phones, MP3 players, you name it.

And again with the reliability crap. Read the reviews, my friend. Try it for yourself. Windows 7 is *MUCH* more reliable than any of its predecessors, and is damn near as stable as a Mac. I can go weeks without rebooting my Windows box, similar how I could go weeks with my Mac without rebooting. And don't kid yourself... Macs have to reboot sometimes too.
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post #419 of 465
10/9/09 at 12:45pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by yuusharo View Post

But it is fair, my friend. Its indeed fair to compare the fact that you can build a Windows 7 PC with comparable, if not equal, specs to a Mac Pro tower for far less money. Its also fair to point out the fact that Apple only sells three "headless" devices: the Mac Pro ($2700), the Xserve ($3000), or the Mac Mini ($600), none of which hit the sweet spot of a mid-range Mac, something people have been begging for for years.

If you read my earlier post you will note it was in response to an earlier poster who claimed : "is now the same for me with Mac/PC's. In order to get the raw performance of a i7 based PC which are in the $800 range the only choice for new is a $2500 Mac".

All I continue to ask for is to give me specific info, with links , instead of your opinion. Is that too much to ask for? "Just the facts, ma'am, just the facts.

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post #420 of 465
10/9/09 at 12:49pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by buceta View Post

Exactly... if you are content with crappiness but livable then buy a Wintel plastic box.

If you are the kind of person who is intelligent enough to appreciate a BMW and would never dare comparing it to a POS Mustang then buy a mac.

There are levels of class, you know...

You think what car you drive and what computer you own determines your level of class?

Pretty sad...
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post #421 of 465
10/9/09 at 1:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by newbee View Post

If you read my earlier post you will note it was in response to an earlier poster who claimed : "is now the same for me with Mac/PC's. In order to get the raw performance of a i7 based PC which are in the $800 range the only choice for new is a $2500 Mac".

All I continue to ask for is to give me specific info, with links , instead of your opinion. Is that too much to ask for? "Just the facts, ma'am, just the facts.

Take a few minutes and search the deal sites...

Look at the HP e9150t line

HP has the HP Pavilion Elite e9150t series desktop w/ i7-920 2.66GHz, 4GB, 640GB, LightScribe DVD+-RW, 512MB ATI Radeon HD 4350, 15-in-1 card reader, Vista Home Premium 64 bit for only $1050 - $200 off - $30 off via HP coupon code: SV2132 = $820 w/ free shipping.

or even

HP has the HP Pavilion Elite e9150t series desktop w/ i7-920 2.66GHz, 4GB, 640GB, Blu-ray +$120, 512MB ATI Radeon HD 4350, 15-in-1 card reader, Vista Home Premium 64 bit for only $1170 - $250 off via HP coupon code: DTLX1784 = $920 w/ free shipping.

or the Dell Studio XPS line (this one has expired but they offer different ones a different times)

Dell Studio XPS desktop w/ Intel Quad Core i7-920 2.66GHz, Free 6GB DDR3 1066MHz, 750GB 7200RPM SATA 3.0Gb/s 16MB Cache, DVD + DL DVD+-RW dual, Free nVidia GeForce GT 220 1024MB, Vista Home Premium, 2yr Warranty for only $1308 - $459 off = $849 w/ free shipping.

You can find i7-920 systems in the $800 range with the discounts they always offer...

Do they match every spec of a Mac Pro - heck no - but in terms of raw processing power they sure do and even offer features the Mac Pro doesn't
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post #422 of 465
10/9/09 at 2:54pm
Don't see what all the swift boat headlines are for.
10.6 is barely different than 10.5 if you weigh what is broken vs. what works. At least from an enterprise standpoint. Nice to have 64-bit, oh wait, nothing is 64-bit outside of Apples crappy little iLife suite and Mail etc...
Win 7 is barely different than Vista. Maybe cleaner kernel. But all you are giving us is a taskbar change and more useless graphical window management that is years behind Apple (and Linux).
All too insignificant to warrant 5 pages of comments. And my comment for that matter.
Sorry, I mean 11 pages.
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post #423 of 465
10/9/09 at 3:26pm
So they admit there is a gap!

Wont be going Windows, and 7 sure didn't change my mind.

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post #424 of 465
10/9/09 at 3:48pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by azentropy View Post

Do they match every spec of a Mac Pro - heck no - but in terms of raw processing power they sure do and even offer features the Mac Pro doesn't

Macs are almost always behind in $/processing power. There several reasons for it. For one the Mac Pros are using more expensive CPU's even if the performance difference isn't that large. Two, as much as people laugh at it the Mac pro case would cost a lot more than the cases in those systems. Then you have the custom designed and built in limited quantity motherboards, the special hard drive mounts, etc, etc. Another major factor is Apples long refresh cycles and the fact that they used fixed price points (if you want best value, buy early). Also, there are so many more PC manufacturers, that it is inevitable that some will have lower prices than what Apple has, and competition will drive prices further down. Those aspects combine to create the "Apple tax".

PC manufacturers tend to sell specs because that is how they differentiate themselves from each other. Apple sells the Mac experience, and specs are only a portion of that. Some people find value in that experience , and some don't. Personally I do (at least for their laptops) and include it in my value calculations for a computer.

I don't remember when the Mac Pro was last updated, but I'm guessing it was around the time that the i7 computers cost $2000 plus (ie. when I built mine), and they wouldn't have dropped the price since.
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post #425 of 465
10/9/09 at 5:34pm
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Originally Posted by cmf2 View Post

Macs are almost always behind in $/processing power. There several reasons for it. For one the Mac Pros are using more expensive CPU's even if the performance difference isn't that large. Two, as much as people laugh at it the Mac pro case would cost a lot more than the cases in those systems. Then you have the custom designed and built in limited quantity motherboards, the special hard drive mounts, etc, etc. Another major factor is Apples long refresh cycles and the fact that they used fixed price points (if you want best value, buy early). Also, there are so many more PC manufacturers, that it is inevitable that some will have lower prices than what Apple has, and competition will drive prices further down. Those aspects combine to create the "Apple tax".

PC manufacturers tend to sell specs because that is how they differentiate themselves from each other. Apple sells the Mac experience, and specs are only a portion of that. Some people find value in that experience , and some don't. Personally I do (at least for their laptops) and include it in my value calculations for a computer.

I don't remember when the Mac Pro was last updated, but I'm guessing it was around the time that the i7 computers cost $2000 plus (ie. when I built mine), and they wouldn't have dropped the price since.

Well exactly.

Apple competes on what happens from the time you sit down at your mac to when you finish whatever it is you set out to do.

The rest compete on price.
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post #426 of 465
10/9/09 at 6:52pm
If Mossburg compares windows to Apple,as the bottom line, then I hope to see an ad soon where PC has his private reviewer, saying things like "Windows is an extra step closer to being as good as the Mac!"
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post #427 of 465
10/10/09 at 5:39am
Windows 7 is lipstick on a pitbull. Despite the M$ marketing claims that of a major overhaul, it's really just a slight evolution of the same old MS garbage. Things like the Task Manager are EXACTLY the same in 7 as they are in XP. What's also amazing is how poor MS thread handling is and how most apps on the system can't even utilise both cores of a processor. Then there's the registry and security nightmares... Even the things that M$ have tried to copy from Apple are implemented much worse.

To be fair there are a couple of really cool improvements. I do like way you can click on any level of the directory tree and it takes you there, kind of like the multi-pane view of the Finder but is actually simpler and more space efficient. But I'm really scraping for something nice to say.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ilogic View Post

If Mossburg compares windows to Apple,as the bottom line, then I hope to see an ad soon where PC has his private reviewer, saying things like "Windows is an extra step closer to being as good as the Mac!"
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post #428 of 465
10/10/09 at 5:52am
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post


But there are a few key areas where Windows 7 falls behind Snow Leopard, Mossberg said. For one, Microsoft's OS "still isn't quite as natural" as it is on Mac, though it's an improvement from Vista.

And though Windows 7 is faster, his MacBook Pro still started and restarted faster than most of the PCs he tested. "But the speed gap has narrowed considerably," he said.

OK, this calls all of his credibility into question, let me explain...

Speed: I have a 1.6ghz single core netbook with 1.6ghz single core cpu, and 2gb ram: it boots 7 Ultimate with all fancy features enabled in less time than my 2.0ghz core 2 duo macbook with 4gb ram loads snow leopard, ditto for a handfull of 3-5 year old old laptops I have tried at work. Is Mr Mossburg testing Windows 7 as a clean install that he preformed? or using Dell or HPs crappware infested implementation thereof? if he is using an OEM install, he isnt evaluating windows 7, he is evaluating that OEMs vision thereof.

"not quite as natural" Give me a break. he is a mac user, no windows is gonig to feel as "natural" just like any long time windows user might find the Mac to be unnatural at first.

Note, I have been using 7 RTM via my university, who made it availible 4 weeks ago, and via my job where I have MVLS.
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You can't quantify how much I don't care -- Bob Kevoian of the Bob and Tom Show.
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post #429 of 465
10/10/09 at 5:57am
Quote:
Originally Posted by s.metcalf View Post

Windows 7 is lipstick on a pitbull.

Please do not insult Windows like that, as bad ad many people may find that OS, it is still much preferable to Sarah Palin.
You can't quantify how much I don't care -- Bob Kevoian of the Bob and Tom Show.
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You can't quantify how much I don't care -- Bob Kevoian of the Bob and Tom Show.
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post #430 of 465
10/10/09 at 6:10am
Quote:
Originally Posted by yuusharo View Post

there's no reason to spend $1200+ on a computer for her, when her old $600 does just a good of a job even 5 years later.

$599 would suffice, if you wait a few days is will be as low as $499.
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post #431 of 465
10/10/09 at 6:29am
Quote:
Originally Posted by yuusharo View Post

Eh, I've seen what similar technologies, like CUDA and Stream, can do, and at the moment I'm not impressed. The most it does is offload some of the work off the CPU, allowing you to maybe push a few more tasks simultaneously. It will be useful going forward, but with CPUs as powerful as they are these days, the difference is marginal. Besides, OpenCL is just that - an open standard. There's nothing preventing Microsoft from integrating it in the future.

You're computer will be more efficient, but it won't have the same performance as "multiple PC machines" in a single Mac Pro. That's just silly.
.

Your completely wrong on this. See my earlier comment.
The thing is, GCD is a framework that 'drives' OpenCL. It is nothing like CUDA. And GCD is accompanied by several other core technologies like LLVM and a C extension (closures) to make it much easier to implement.
I'v seen some experiment with it and a speedup of 20 to 25 times for some rendering applications like photo enhancements and movie effects is already shown.
And, thats a lot of PC's to buy.

And yes, OpenCL and more importantly GCD is (or will bee soon) open source.
And MS can implement that in the future. But the problem is that GCD must be implemented in the core of the OS, and that takes a lot of time to implement, even if you have the source.
(Another potential problem is that GCD is written for a Unix environment, this could introduce even more problems for MS.)
Anyhow, W7 doesn't have it now, and it might take W10 and a few years from now to include it in an expensive upgrade. Mac user can use it now if an application is adapted. And I can assure you this will not take long.

GCD is revolutionary and I know a lot of people are looking at it now.

J.
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post #432 of 465
10/10/09 at 7:26am
Quote:
Originally Posted by iMat View Post

Instead of spending time on the tablet, Apple should:

1) make sure all major software producers release their software to take advantage of GCD and OpenCL
2) release some updates to their professional line of software (Aperture) so that they still have an edge in this regard
3) Apple should help more some specialized software houses to make their software better for Mac (ArchiCAD Cocoa rewrite) or to port it to Mac (AutoCAD).

Then, after that, they should release some new MacPros and iMacs.

After all these steps are completed they can create the iTablet, keeping one thing in mind:
- NO CONTENT = NO SALES
So, for instance, if you don't have a movie and video store in 99% of the countries you shouldn't be surprised that the Apple TV is still in some sort of beta limbo...

Microsoft Windows 7 getting better? This is a piece of news that should affect every Mac enthusiast who doesn't wear blindfolds.
Apple has an edge, in my opinion, in a combination of factors, OSX being only one of them. But it is true that Snow Leopard brought only under the hood changes, which is a good idea in my opinion, but it is also true that if nobody (software) profits from these changes they are as good as useless. iCal and Mail have never been the most resource intensive tasks my MBP performs.. Happy to see they are faster, but ArchiCAD and Aperture in my case are the two that might benefit MUCH more from being 64bit and GCD compatible. So that is something Apple has to fix next.

This is solely based on interface features & feel.

Also, I strongly disagree with some of the aspects Walt places above OS X. Expose is way better than the Windows method. Also, the UI for Windows 7 is a little better than Vista, but still not very fluid in my opinion.

When you start getting into the depth of the Unix system & all the capabilities of a Mac on a networking level, sorry Microsoft but Win 7 is way behind.
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post #433 of 465
10/10/09 at 7:32am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jnjnjn View Post

$599 would suffice, if you wait a few days is will be as low as $499.

If the guy is saying a 5 year old PC is adequate then switching may not actually be the right move for them.

Where I always recommend people switch is when they start talking about wanting to get into more than just e-mail. They'll say things like, "I was thinking I want to get a computer with a camera to do video chat & maybe turn some of my home videos into a home movie." I immediately point them in the direction of a Mac because everything you need to do these things is built right in.

Definitely right on the price though, 1200+ is only if you want the pro line laptops. People need to stop watching the MS adds, rotting their brains.
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post #434 of 465
10/10/09 at 7:47am
Quote:
Originally Posted by a_greer View Post

OK, this calls all of his credibility into question, let me explain...

Speed: I have a 1.6ghz single core netbook with 1.6ghz single core cpu, and 2gb ram: it boots 7 Ultimate with all fancy features enabled in less time than my 2.0ghz core 2 duo macbook with 4gb ram loads snow leopard, ditto for a handfull of 3-5 year old old laptops I have tried at work. Is Mr Mossburg testing Windows 7 as a clean install that he preformed? or using Dell or HPs crappware infested implementation thereof? if he is using an OEM install, he isnt evaluating windows 7, he is evaluating that OEMs vision thereof.

"not quite as natural" Give me a break. he is a mac user, no windows is gonig to feel as "natural" just like any long time windows user might find the Mac to be unnatural at first.

Note, I have been using 7 RTM via my university, who made it availible 4 weeks ago, and via my job where I have MVLS.

Ultimate shouldn't boot any slower than other versions, unless you are actually setting a ton of crap to load at startup.

You're NetBook have a SSD? That kinda makes a huge difference on boot times & would be important to note.

We also have Win 7 at work & have done some testing. Boot times for a clean install of Win 7 compared to a Mac that has been used for quite some time & has lots of customizations & login items, well yeah it takes longer for the Mac to boot. 2 clean installs side by side, sorry but the Mac still wins.

UI, mostly preference but from an artistic standpoint Microsoft makes a lot of UI decisions that are just plain abrasive. There were a select few that loved the Windows XP crayola UI too but that didn't justify it as being better. However, this is a hard one to compare since it is largely dependent on the user preference.

Windows 7 did a lot to bring it neck & neck in performance & speed. Interface is definitely much better than Vista, which seemed more concerned with cool effects than usefulness. The big lesson from this is that Apple now has it's work cut out if they want to keep stealing people away from Microsoft.

By the way, adding touch as a feature over the Macs was not a fair comparison. That is a hardware feature, one that you don't get with all PCs & one that it is possible to actually get with a customized Mac. Multitouch was around for Macs long before even the release of Windows Vista.
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post #435 of 465
10/10/09 at 4:15pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by yuusharo View Post

Second, Windows updates are released ONCE PER MONTH on the second Tuesday of every month. The only updates that are released outside that schedule are deemed highly critical, and that doesn't happen often. With Windows 7's new patch engine, you *RARELY* need to restart after a Windows update. In fact, I don't believe I've ever had to restart after an update and have been using it since beta. Not even for video drivers!

I actually really like this feature. Win7 has been rock solid even with updates - I have not rebooted in more than 60 days.

Do not overrate what you have received, nor envy others.
15" Matte MacBook Pro: 2.66Ghz i7, 8GB RAM, GT330m 512MB, 512GB SSD

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Do not overrate what you have received, nor envy others.
15" Matte MacBook Pro: 2.66Ghz i7, 8GB RAM, GT330m 512MB, 512GB SSD

iPhone 5 Black 32GB

iPad 3rd Generation, 32GB

Mac Mini Core2Duo 2.26ghz,...

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post #436 of 465
10/10/09 at 4:29pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by yuusharo View Post

But you do get Windows Live Essentials, which is a pretty competent suite. And its free

As much as I like Win7, I can't agree with this. Live Mail is terrible compared to Mac Mail. Searches are awful, IMAP is slow, rules and filters are cumbersome and it messes up formatting from virtually every client. Ugh...

Keep email, photos and music (especially composing music) on Macs - PCs can keep gaming, Office stuff and finance apps.

That's why I, and almost everyone else with a Mac, has both.

Do not overrate what you have received, nor envy others.
15" Matte MacBook Pro: 2.66Ghz i7, 8GB RAM, GT330m 512MB, 512GB SSD

iPhone 5 Black 32GB

iPad 3rd Generation, 32GB

Mac Mini Core2Duo 2.26ghz,...

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Do not overrate what you have received, nor envy others.
15" Matte MacBook Pro: 2.66Ghz i7, 8GB RAM, GT330m 512MB, 512GB SSD

iPhone 5 Black 32GB

iPad 3rd Generation, 32GB

Mac Mini Core2Duo 2.26ghz,...

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post #437 of 465
10/10/09 at 5:00pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zoolook View Post

As much as I like Win7, I can't agree with this. Live Mail is terrible compared to Mac Mail. Searches are awful, IMAP is slow, rules and filters are cumbersome and it messes up formatting from virtually every client. Ugh...

Keep email, photos and music (especially composing music) on Macs - PCs can keep gaming, Office stuff and finance apps.

That's why I, and almost everyone else with a Mac, has both.

I have need for office software as well (as well as Quicken), and a Mac meets requirements in this area. You've got your choice of iWork or Office for Mac. Why use both Mac and PC or Windows and OS X? The whole point of switching . . . is to switch. Some of you are too wedded to Windows.

Gaming is a different story, of course.
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post #438 of 465
10/11/09 at 6:20am
Quote:
Originally Posted by doyourownthing View Post

nice to read reviews from people which are probably in microsoft's payroll

also how is this apple news?

people that compare snow leopard to windows 7 are angry pc users which have never owned / operated a mac and have no idea of what they're talking about, and were paid big amounts of money to write good reviews, like this mossberg character


you're a moron. there's as many blind PC haters as their are Mac haters.... way to call yourself out. you've either never touched Windows 7 or are so unbelievably biased in your hate for Windows that you can't even admit to a good release from Microsoft when it's staring you right in the face. have fun with the limitations of being a Mac only guy... if you were smart at all you'd use all 3 platforms based on whatever task said OS was suited best for.

you think Mac haters are bad, well your pretentious little rant was no better.
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post #439 of 465
10/12/09 at 6:46am
Quote:
Originally Posted by a_greer View Post

Please do not insult Windows like that, as bad ad many people may find that OS, it is still much preferable to Sarah Palin.

Being better than Sarah Palin is not a compliment.
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post #440 of 465
10/12/09 at 6:57am
Quote:
Originally Posted by azentropy View Post

You think what car you drive and what computer you own determines your level of class?

Pretty sad...

Correct.

Not because of how much it costs necessarily but mostly because it determines your level of education and knowhow.

For instance, a Lexus is a car for sheepole with little brains. Why? Anybody who understands engineering know a standard Lexus is a $42k car that should cost $25 because it is a Toyota with an "L" badge.

On the other hand people with education and brains know a $42k BMW should cost $42k and will go into detail as to why it is a 10-times better car than Lexus. This is and absolutely accurate statement and it is information above and beyond what is available out there from car reviews, which most of the time spill nonsense that fools everybody except for people who are the true experts.

It is all about education, about class, about your level.

Same thing with computer. Sheepole and the average joe will say a PC is better because, well, software is about the same and it is cheaper and offer more features.

A person with knowhow and a high level of education will point out that for all the metrics that matter: depreciation rate, overall experience and productivity with the computer, mac wins by an undisputable margin. Whereas all the metrics that do not matter: price, features, the wintell box "wins". You see? There is a huge difference, but it is a subtle one and I have already tried to explain it to you people with no luck. It seems that you lack the basic software to understand.

Everybody who really knows their computing agrees with me 100%. But to realize this you need to be above average intelligence, be knowledgeable, and have good analytical thinking.
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