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Obama Wins 2009 Nobel Peace Prize

post #1 of 355
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Hello darlinks!

Long time no see some of you. Haven't been to AI for ages let alone PO so don't have a clue who a lot of you are.

Anyway, this just got posted on AN. Now as some may recall, I ain't that political. Personally I'm chuffed. But I'm really most interested to see how you all respond.

SDW2001 I'm sure you'd have a view about this. Trumpty? Does adda still post?

Any of the Cons converts? Does logging in to PO still deserve the preparatory warning "Abandon All Hope Ye Who Enter Here". Guess I'm about to find out.
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And for the lover, tomorrow shall be love.
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post #2 of 355
Congratulations to all you US citizens on once more having a president who gains respect around the world

Although it will remain to be seen what his administration will accomplish on the long run,
his intelligent and thoughtful way of operating in the international arena is earning back a lot of goodwill towards the US around the world.
post #3 of 355
WOW!!!

Well deserved, well deserved indeed.

Obama has, simply put, put the US back on the map.

For the first time in history the US is leading by example instead of leading by bullying. For the first time in history the US is setting a climate of multilateral diplomacy that is making other nations realize that we are all in this together and that we must work together to achieve important goals.

Congratulations to Obama, a truly great person.
post #4 of 355
I wonder which of these peaceful acts he won for:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle5575883.ece

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2...n-forces_N.htm

I guess if they are willing to give the Nobel Peace prize to Henry Kissinger anything is possible.

Shit, next thing you know they'll give Paul Krugman a Nobel prize for Economics and then the demise of the Nobel prize awards will be complete.
post #5 of 355
Quote:
Originally Posted by involuntary_serf View Post

I wonder which of these peaceful acts he won for:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle5575883.ece

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2...n-forces_N.htm

Shit, next thing you know they'll give Paul Krugman a Nobel prize for Economics and then the demise of the Nobel prize awards will be complete.

The Peace prize is given to:

Quote:
to the person who shall have done the most or the best work for fraternity between nations, for the abolition or reduction of standing armies and for the holding and promotion of peace congresses.

That is not to be confused with a Pacifist prize, which would be given to anybody who stopped all forms of aggression at any cost.

Hey, I know I am stating the obvious but clearly some people here need a lesson in basic analytical thinking.
post #6 of 355
Quote:
Originally Posted by buceta View Post

The Peace prize is given to:



That is not to be confused with a Pacifist prize, which would be given to anybody who stopped all forms of aggression at any cost.

Hey, I know I am stating the obvious but clearly some people here need a lesson in basic analytical thinking.

Yes, some do. So, why don't you analyze precisely and specifically what Barack Obama has done to:

"have done the most or the best work for fraternity between nations, for the abolition or reduction of standing armies and for the holding and promotion of peace congresses."

And how exactly does sending more drones and troops to kill more people in a foreign nation comport with the "reduction of standing armies and for the holding and promotion of peace congresses"?

Are we saying "Hey you can go on killing people with your American war machine all you want, but if you promote a 'peace congress'...well then you're eligible!"?
post #7 of 355
It was renamed the apPeasement Prize some years ago.
post #8 of 355
Lech Walesa's reaction is interesting:

Quote:
"Who? What? So fast?" a shocked Walesa said when reporters told him about the latest Obama win.

"Well, there's hasn't been any contribution to peace yet. He's proposing things, he's initiating things, but he is yet to deliver," he said.

Walesa went on to say that we should see this as encouragement for Obama.

So maybe they're now handing out the prize in the hopes* that the person will do something for peace.



*More evidence of this sentiment comes from Jacob Heilbrunn:

Quote:
Obviously, the award is based on the hope that Obama will achieve real progress in advancing diplomacy rather than confrontation around the globe.

post #9 of 355
Quote:
A spokesman for the Nobel committee said she hoped that Mr. Obama's victory would be seen not only as a victory for him, but "as a tribute to the healing power of beer."

So it appears that the Nobel Prize committee is in full on self-parody mode.
post #10 of 355
Who cares? We are talking about the same folks who gave it to Jimmy Carter and Al Gore. It basically goes to the head of the Democratic party every couple years now. The real discussion should be how nasty Clinton had to be to in order to not be let into the "club."

As most have noted, a prize awarded for nothing becomes a prize worth nothing (except for the cash of course.)

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #11 of 355
The Nobel peace prize seems like it would be better described as the hope for peace prize. Some of the laureates are not what I would call great men, nor peaceful men. Hopefully Obama will provide a more distingushed example than some who have been inducted. He really has not done anything to deserve the prize yet, but he may yet earn it.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #12 of 355
Frankly, at this point, if he does anything less that turn it down, he's a fool.

No doubt there is serious debate going on inside the W.H. about this very question.
post #13 of 355
Quote:
Originally Posted by involuntary_serf View Post

Frankly, at this point, if he does anything less that turn it down, he's a fool.

No doubt there is serious debate going on inside the W.H. about this very question.

I seriously doubt he would turn it down. That award amounts to a large amount of political capitol that would be hard for any politician to pass by.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #14 of 355
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

I seriously doubt he would turn it down. That award amounts to a large amount of political capitol that would be hard for any politician to pass by.

I think you need to think carefully about the "political math" here. This is actually something that could seriously backfire. No one cares for someone that's perceived to have received such a grand "prize" for having done nothing at all.

Note that the deadline date for nomination for this award was February 1, according to the Norwegian Nobel Committee website.
post #15 of 355
Quote:
Originally Posted by involuntary_serf View Post

I think you need to think carefully about the "political math" here. This is actually something that could seriously backfire. No one cares for someone that's perceived to have received such a grand "prize" for having done nothing at all.

Note that the deadline date for nomination for this award was February 1, according to the Norwegian Nobel Committee website.

If a survey were done I am willing to bet that the majority of Americans do not have any idea the process used to determine who receives the prize and generally perceive the Nobel prize for peace to be only given to those who deserve it for something they have actually done. There will be those who share your thoughts on the matter, but overall I think it would be seen in a more positive light than negative. In this case Obama would get a net gain for accepting. I personally would not be offended if he accepted, but would expect him to live up to the ideals it called him to. Things he has said and promised pre-qualify him for the prize and it may yet force him to keep those promises.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #16 of 355
And the farce continues:

Quote:
A Democratic National Committee spokesman said Friday the GOP has "thrown in its lot with the terrorists" in criticizing the president's Nobel Peace Prize award.
post #17 of 355
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

Who cares? We are talking about the same folks who gave it to Jimmy Carter and Al Gore. It basically goes to the head of the Democratic party every couple years now. The real discussion should be how nasty Clinton had to be to in order to not be let into the "club."

As most have noted, a prize awarded for nothing becomes a prize worth nothing (except for the cash of course.)

The real discussion for you and your party should be why no republican has won any Nobels in recent memory. And why does the rest of the world dislike republicans so much.
post #18 of 355
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

If a survey were done I am willing to bet that the majority of Americans do not have any idea the process used to determine who receives the prize and generally perceive the Nobel prize for peace to be only given to those who deserve it for something they have actually done. There will be those who share your thoughts on the matter, but overall I think it would be seen in a more positive light than negative. In this case Obama would get a net gain for accepting.

You may well be right. Certainly in America, I don't think the vast majority of the American public can be considered the "brightest bulbs in the box" and they are certainly susceptible to the superficial, so you may very well be right.


Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

I personally would not be offended if he accepted,

I don't feel offended in any way that he has accepted. Obama doesn't carry enough weight in my own ranking of things to warrant being offended by his actions.


Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

but would expect him to live up to the ideals it called him to. Things he has said and promised pre-qualify him for the prize and it may yet force him to keep those promises.

Well it certainly seems to be the only reason to have awarded it...the hope that he will live up to it. I hope he lives up to it as well. Perhaps this will convince him to get out of Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan and stay out of Iran and North Korea. If the award achieves that, then it will have accomplished something. Then, maybe, it will qualify to award the award to itself in some sort of bizarre, meta self-congratulatory act.
post #19 of 355
Quote:
Originally Posted by crazychester View Post

Link

But I'm really most interested to see how you all respond.

First thought, huh?
After thinking about it, huh?


Quote:
Does adda still post?

Showed up for 10 days when a certain member got banned for 10 days, hasn't posted since the ban was lifted.
Hmm.
post #20 of 355
As usual the subscribers to the lunatic right wing fringe movement get all ticket off by the triumphs of democrats and jump on to do their utmost to belittle the accomplishment, in this case by painting it as a worthless prize (hysterical laughs here), as the potential to and not real accomplishments (again, laughable), etc.

The same happened to Al Gore, who dedicated his life to awareness and action of the real and present danger of climate change. GOP deniers said everything from the usual "climate change is not real" to "he is just for show".

Whereas these people, like it or not, are true leaders in the US and abroad, GOP senators shout "you lie" and Fox continue to organize astroturf protests with hate speech and ass-backward arguments even a kid could debunk in 10 seconds. Little Bush spent 8 years of cowboy diplomacy and policy of not talking to "axis of evil" states and therefore passed off real opportunities to influence the course of action in those countries for the benefit of the US. Then Chenney and chronies invaded the wrong country by pulling off one of the greatest hoaxes the world has ever seen (manufacturing WMD intelligence) and then tortured.

Hell, why isn't there a World's Greatest Jackass award?
post #21 of 355
I'm so glad Obama won Europe's biggest popularity contest.
post #22 of 355
Remember, if George W Bush had won the Nobel Peace Prize and Democrats reacted the same way the Republicans are acting now with regard to Obama, the Republicans would be screaming "UNAMERICAN TREASON!" at the top of their lungs. God dammit you fucking Republican jackoffs, don't you love your country? You sure aren't showing it by tearing it apart, undermining the president at every turn, and driving a deeper wedge between you and the rest of the nation. And don't try to weasel out of being held to your own standard of "loving one's country" which you CLEARLY ESTABLISHED during George W. Bush's Reign of Terror. Oops, Presidency.

 

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post #23 of 355
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Remember, if George W Bush had won the Nobel Peace Prize and Democrats reacted the same way...

Remember? Remembering is for things that have actually happened. Here we go again...speculating about what might have happened instead of discussing what did happen.


Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

God dammit you fucking Republican jackoffs, don't you love your country? You sure aren't showing it by tearing it apart, undermining the president at every turn, and driving a deeper wedge between you and the rest of the nation.

I can't speak for republicans, but I can say that the only thing that has been undermined today (piling onto previous dubious awards of this prize) is the Nobel Peace Prize, by the actions of the award panel.
post #24 of 355
Oh give me a break involuntary. You know very well what happened to Democrats at every turn when they opposed the actions or even spoke ill of George W Bush. Don't try to play dumb here and manipulate my words in order to avoid the point.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
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post #25 of 355
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Oh give me a break involuntary. You know very well what happened to Democrats at every turn when they opposed the actions or even spoke ill of George W Bush. Don't try to play dumb here and manipulate my words in order to avoid the point.

I'm not manipulating your words. If your words don't mean what you want, use different ones.

I'm also not defending Bush (or the republicans). Their denunciations of those critical of them are just as despicable as the Democratic National Committee spokesman who said, this morning, that GOP has "thrown in its lot with the terrorists" in criticizing the president's Nobel Peace Prize award. They are just as despicable as those who suggest that anyone that criticizes Barack Obama is racist, idiot, or simply one of the lunatic fringe.
post #26 of 355
If you want to be manipulative, keep doing what you're doing. You just can't handle being held to your own standards that you set.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
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post #27 of 355
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

If you want to be manipulative, keep doing what you're doing. You just can't handle being held to your own standards that you set.

What standard am I not living up to exactly? Please be specific.
post #28 of 355
The standard you set for proper treatment of the POTUS. I have to run but you know very well what I'm talking about.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #29 of 355
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

The standard you set for proper treatment of the POTUS. I have to run but you know very well what I'm talking about.

I actually don't know what you're talking about. Maybe when you return you can explain, and be specific.

P.S. My comments in here are more along the lines of criticism of the Nobel Prize committee that Barack Obama himself. If stating that he hasn't done anything to warrant such a prize offends you, well I don't know what to do about that. Maybe disprove the claim with something substantial. Geez, some of the most liberal people I know personally are nonplussed by this and, while supportive of Obama (I am not) are scratching their head about this and saying the same thing...this is more about hope than actuality.
post #30 of 355
Peace prize? Sorry, had to laugh, even though its not funny. War is Peace, Freedom is Slavery...

Obama deserves this award no more than Dick Cheney. Perhaps the Nobel Institute, to retain any credibility, should abandon the peace prize. Maybe each of us here in P.O. could apply for a Nobel Peace Prize next year?

Obama has always voted to approve the Iraq war budget, and has dramatically stepped up the war in Afghanistan. On the calendar are probable military operations against Iran and other M.E. nations.. (that is, when circumstances enrage the US people enough to allow Obama to use the "Ace" card of war, probably a little further down the road into his first term).

In 9 months in office, what exactly has he done to promote the cause of peace in the world and be deserving of this prize?

Nothing.

Long silence. Tumbleweed rolls down the deserted street. A lone coyote howls.....
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post #31 of 355
I can help.

The office of the President of the United States is sacrosanct. Unless it is a Democratic president, in which case you can accuse him of anything you like.

And the DNC was right to call out the Republicans. The prize indicates the extremely high esteem Obama is held everywhere in the world. Americans should be proud of him today whether hes ready for the award or not.
post #32 of 355
Quote:
Originally Posted by involuntary_serf View Post

I actually don't know what you're talking about. Maybe when you return you can explain, and be specific.

P.S. My comments in here are more along the lines of criticism of the Nobel Prize committee that Barack Obama himself. If stating that he hasn't done anything to warrant such a prize offends you, well I don't know what to do about that. Maybe disprove the claim with something substantial. Geez, some of the most liberal people I know personally are nonplussed by this and, while supportive of Obama (I am not) are scratching their head about this and saying the same thing...this is more about hope than actuality.

Ok I had a couple more minutes before I had to go...I guess I grouped you in with SDW & Trumpet and their ilk. My mistake.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
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post #33 of 355
Quote:
Originally Posted by involuntary_serf View Post

So it appears that the Nobel Prize committee is in full on self-parody mode.

No kidding. We have truly entered the Age of Absurdity. Sir Obama has literally done almost nothing at this point, which I would normally applaud given the history of harmful decisions stemming from politicians, but in his case he's done nothing to stop the Constitution-shredding policies of the Bush administration, he's allowed the destruction of our dollar and our economy by enabling ungodly amounts of money to be siphoned off by special interests and to be pumped into deadweight companies, and he's had a beer with an irritable professor and a police officer... If this is what they give out Nobel prizes for these days, I give up!

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post #34 of 355
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo View Post

The office of the President of the United States is sacrosanct. Unless it is a Democratic president, in which case you can accuse him of anything you like.

It's interesting, by my observations, I could make the same sarcastic comment about liberals or democrats...The office of the President of the United States is sacrosanct. Unless it is a Republican president, in which case you can accuse him of anything you like.

Personally, to me, the office is not sacrosanct at all. I don't share the idolatry of the office or the person holding it like some do. To me he's a fallible person and should have far more limited powers and privileges than he currently does. Arguably, based on the notion that power corrupts, the president is even more fallible than the average person. And given that people knowingly and willingly and aggressively seek the position...I'd argue even more susceptible to this corruption.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo View Post

And the DNC was right to call out the Republicans. The prize indicates the extremely high esteem Obama is held everywhere in the world. Americans should be proud of him today whether hes ready for the award or not.

Don't be absurd.
post #35 of 355
Quote:
Originally Posted by involuntary_serf View Post

Personally, to me, the office is not sacrosanct at all. I don't share the idolatry of the office or the person holding it like some do. To me he's a fallible person and should have far more limited powers and privileges than he currently does. Arguably, based on the notion that power corrupts, the president is even more fallible than the average person. And given that people knowingly and willingly and aggressively seek the position...I'd argue even more susceptible to this corruption.

Hear, hear!

When the opportunity presents itself and we are in a position to tamp down the abusive spread and reach of government (not just the powers of the presidency), as concerned Americans we should run with it!

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post #36 of 355
At first I was surprised. After all, Obama hasn't been responsible for any direct, distinct advancements of peace. However, upon thinking about it longer, it makes perfect sense.

The greatest human originated danger facing the world is that of wars between nation states and perhaps a nuclear strike by terrorists. We were rapidly descending into a an era of increased distrust, militarism, and brinkmanship. The US was greatly contributing to this trend under the leadership of the Bush administration. Bush refused to negotiate with enemies, labeled them as the "axis of evil", and launched multiple invasions/occupations of other nations.

In the US we were largely oblivious to the level of reasonable hatred this caused. Sure, we were aware that "terrorists" hated the US. But what most Americans don't realize is that even moderates were beginning to hate the US. As a superpower, this had absolutely horrific implications for the likelihood of large-scale war.

Obama has largely reversed this trend. While extremists and some moderates still hate the US, a significant percentage of the world populace no longer sees the US as pure evil. They once again have confidence that this superpower is acting in a reasonable manner. The chance of war has greatly decreased. The climate of hatred is subsiding.

Certainly, Obama hasn't caused this by direct and distinct actions of peace. And he hasn't accomplished this via a lifetime of peace movement leadership. But what he has done is foster a climate of diplomacy rather than military conflict. Opposing nations are talking again and the US/European relations have thawed. It's partially his name, partially his race, but perhaps mostly his willingness to talk to other world leaders on an equal footing. He has quite deftly convinced much of the world that the US is no longer the world's biggest bully with an attitude problem.

Personally, I think it would have been better to wait and see if the trend is meaningful. But so far... we're on the right track. I can once again envision a day when world religions will coexist in peace.
post #37 of 355
Quote:
Originally Posted by dfiler View Post

At first I was surprised. After all, Obama hasn't been responsible for any direct, distinct advancements of peace. However, upon thinking about it longer, it makes perfect sense.

The greatest human originated danger facing the world is that of wars between nation states and perhaps a nuclear strike by terrorists. We were rapidly descending into a an era of increased distrust, militarism, and brinkmanship. The US was greatly contributing to this trend under the leadership of the Bush administration. Bush refused to negotiate with enemies, labeled them as the "axis of evil", and launched multiple invasions/occupations of other nations.

In the US we were largely oblivious to the level of reasonable hatred this caused. Sure, we were aware that "terrorists" hated the US. But what most Americans don't realize is that even moderates were beginning to hate the US. As a superpower, this had absolutely horrific implications for the likelihood of large-scale war.

Obama has largely reversed this trend. While extremists and some moderates still hate the US, a significant percentage of the world populace no longer sees the US as pure evil. They once again have confidence that this superpower is acting in a reasonable manner. The chance of war has greatly decreased. The climate of hatred is subsiding.

Certainly, Obama hasn't caused this by direct and distinct actions of peace. And he hasn't accomplished via a lifetime of peace movement leadership. But what he has done is foster a climate of diplomacy rather than military conflict. Opposing nations are talking again and the US/European relations have thawed. It's partially his name, partially his race, but perhaps mostly his willingness to talk to other world leaders on an equal footing. He has quite deftly convinced the much of the world that the US is no longer the world's biggest bully with an attitude problem.

Personally, I think it would have been better to wait and see if the trend is meaningful. But so far... we're on the right track. I can once again envision a day when the world religions will coexist in peace.

................What? If anything, the policies of the US, borne out of economic necessity (after all we are teetering on insolvency), HAD to change. Our troops running around overseas and our military adventurism will stop because it costs us too much money. It has nothing to do with good or evil. All one need see is our country has been pouring money into the military-industrial complex, as Eisenhower warned, and they have been setting the agenda for this country for far too long. Corporatism rules.

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post #38 of 355
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post

................What? If anything, the policies of the US, borne out of economic necessity (after all we are teetering on insolvency), HAD to change. Our troops running around overseas and our military adventurism will stop because it costs us too much money. It has nothing to do with good or evil. All one need see is our country has been pouring money into the military-industrial complex, as Eisenhower warned, and they have been setting the agenda for this country for far too long. Corporatism rules.

Hmmm, i'm not sure if you're disagreeing or agreeing. Nowhere did I mention anything about the morality of, or motivation for, our continued occupation of Iraq and Afghanistan.

My post was about how the people and nations of the world perceive the US in a more positive manner now. And that the new climate of diplomacy and mutual respect has great implications for world peace.

Edit:

For example. Remember all the controversy because Obama was willing to talk to certain other world leaders? Or remember how him merely shaking the hand of a world leader was also quite controversial?

The US plays a massive role in world politics. We can quite easily set the framework for how much of the world interacts with each other. Obama has been responsible for a massive shift in world politics since taking office. Previously, we were labeling other nations as "evil", refusing to talk to them, and we were teetering on the brink of additional wars. This had far reaching effects. It was fostering a climate of hatred and conflict. Obama has thankfully backed us away from that type of interaction with the rest of the world.

But yeah, I'll agree that this is only a step in the right direction. I would have preferred to wait and see what type of results this change of direction produces. So far, Obama has only improved relations between nations. It is yet to be seen what kind of concrete effect this has on real measures like bodycounts.

Perhaps its just that as an American, we don't understand just how vehement world-wide hatred of America had grown, and how significantly Obama has changed that trend.
post #39 of 355
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo View Post

I can help.

The office of the President of the United States is sacrosanct. Unless it is a Democratic president, in which case you can accuse him of anything you like.

And the DNC was right to call out the Republicans. The prize indicates the extremely high esteem Obama is held everywhere in the world. Americans should be proud of him today whether hes ready for the award or not.

I would think so too but unfortunately many right wing nuts hate Obama more than they love America.
post #40 of 355
I'm not getting this -- they are giving this to him on his intentions alone? I can see if something had happened, but for all the good intentions we are still right where we were a year ago.

So somehow this puts him in the same league as MLK and Yasser Arafat...... ........wait, nevermind.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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