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Apple criticized over iTunes LP development costs - Page 2

post #41 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by jinjo235 View Post

Let's say you take the LP idea over to a no-name freelance graphic designer/developer. Guess what...they'll charge you by the hour. In order to perfect it, make it visually appealing, really allow the artist to portray themselves and reach millions and millions of iTunes users they know they could charge you for it. An we are talking about a no name developer. Interactive applications, customer covers and interfaces and hosting is all, I believe iTunes has every right to charge 10K!

Agreed. I'm a no-name interactive developer and I'd easily charge 10k+.

It's a lot of skilled, creative work. If an artist can't pay for that, then obviously that's that. They can sell music instead

What's amazing here is that Apple is charging so LITTLE. They're the big pros, yet charging what I would working out of a garage!*

* I don't even have a garage So... living room.
post #42 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post

It's usually considered bad form to reply to your own post. Just edit your original post to include the new information, or make a new post.

Which is what I would normally do. But in this case I wanted to expound on a previous thought while still preserving it online to invoke discussion. I didn't have the thought in the followup post until after I considered what I had written previously.
post #43 of 104
|I don't know where you're getting the figure of $3,000 for a Blu-Ray burner. They can be bought for as little as $200 now. I also don't really understand why you're comparing blu-ray to iTunes LP considering one is a high definition delivery format for video content and the other is an interactive music album. iTunes extras doesn't even compare to Blu-Ray as it's only standard definition so I don't know why people keep making these completely un-necessary arguments to try and justify apple's new formats. They can both co-exist you know. This isn't highlander, there can be more than one.

Anyway, Gizmodo are talking out their collective rear ends as usual. $10,000 for developing an iTunes LP would be the lower end of the spectrum in terms of price for developing that kind of content. As a designer who has regurlarly worked on DVD authoring and interactive media, I can say that for a fact. From what I've seen of iTunes LP I would charge in and around that just for doing the visuals, yet alone the authoring. If that's all Apple are charging that's a steal for what the result is.
post #44 of 104
AACS is mandatory, even if you don't care about it? At least with DVDs you didn't have to encrypt your stuff.

That just blows.
post #45 of 104
Thank you, ChocolateLab, for your comments. On these forums we sometimes debate ideas of which we haven't a clue, we just speculate and try to sound smart. It's good to hear from people like you who are facing the issues in the real world.
post #46 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chocolate Lab View Post

It's not too much for a major label who hemorrhages money in attempts to promote artists with the hope of having a successful album. Anyone can tell you that a major label loses money on 9 out of 10 albums and that that one profitable album pays for the rest of the loses. That's just how majors work.

It's too much for us because why would we want to pay $10,000 (assuming we had $10,000 for one aspect of marketing/production) to have an in-house design team create our LP. But that's not the point either - the point is that we're not being given the option in the first place.

I don't know what the value added would be. I'm shocked that anyone is paying an extra $10 per album to get a couple videos and extras in the first place. My initial goal in pursuing information on LP creation was to release two albums as a "box set/special edition" and at the price of one album and include the LP format as a bonus. That's the only way I could justify the extra cost to the end user. I don't even know who gets to keep the extra $10, to be honest.

it was originally the major record companies that came up with digital LP idea and Apple is just developing their own version of it. there will be another version coming out soon from the "other" category.

Apple might not offer it to indie labels because they may be under contract with the major record companies with this
post #47 of 104
I have to disagree with this article which is rare since I enjoy Prince's posts. iTunes LP is not some special feature that most people may even want. $10,000 is simply too much to pay and much of the best music that has come out over the last 15 years were indie artists. When only certain artists get this "honor" it is more about the artist and less about the music. Who is to say where this line is drawn. By this premise albums like "Exile from Guyville" or "For Emma, Forever Ago" could not have an iTunes LP upon it's initial release.


I keep thinking to the "Think Different" ads. The most influential people were not those in the mainstream but the people who think outside the box.
post #48 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

The fact that Apple uses open, web standards to build its new iTunes LP titles, and the fact that they are currently only viewable within iTunes 9 on a Mac or PC, along with the expectation that these digital albums are being targeted at a new tablet form factor product in the pipeline as well as the HDTV resolution of Apple TV, all serve as indicators that iTunes LP is a work in progress that is still unfolding as a strategy.


this would seem to be to be the key statement. this (and the Extras feature) are a test. see if there is interest, work out the kinks etc. if you watch the keynote, Jobs even indicates that the labels and artists will be making these things themselves. which actually makes me wonder if the price mentioned was actually a sign up to get all the tools and not an album by album cost. Once the project is deemed viable.

and yeah I know, someone is going to say that an Apple Rep says. well guess what, it wouldn't be the first time an Apple Rep got something wrong. An Apple Rep assured me that I would have no problems with my Epson printer when I updated to Snow Leopard but oops, I sure did have problems. cause Epson had not written an SL driver yet. And I've had other Apple Reps make similar mistakes. Point being that just cause someone is an Apple Rep doesn't mean they can't misunderstand or poorly state infomation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chocolate Lab View Post

What I was told is no. You are not able to produce your own content and as of now it's only available to major labels.

note the part I put in bold. this whole experiment is only about 6 weeks old if that. now in 6 months if they are saying 'you aren't old enough to play in this sandbox' then you've got something to gripe about.
post #49 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dlux View Post

Don't you have other forums somewhere to share your wisdom? Why do keep posting here?

I realize you may hate teckstud and all, but it seems to me he has a point. They could have included a PDF of CD booklet with the digital album purchase from the get go, but they almost never have done that.

I'm not seeing a way to preview this LP system either, it would seem to be in their best interest to give the buyer a better idea of what they're getting for the extra $4-$5.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fxgeek View Post

|I don't know where you're getting the figure of $3,000 for a Blu-Ray burner. They can be bought for as little as $200 now. I also don't really understand why you're comparing blu-ray to iTunes LP considering one is a high definition delivery format for video content and the other is an interactive music album.

I agree. But as for the burner, maybe they meant a BD duplicator? I'm pretty sure BD duplicators are cheaper than that now, I thought I saw one for half that price, and it included a printer setup for printing a design onto the disc. I don't understand the article's bit about BD-RW (ReWritable). If you're distributing media for sale, you're writing to BD-RE (REcordable, i.e. write once).

Quote:
Originally Posted by charlituna View Post

note the part I put in bold. this whole experiment is only about 6 weeks old if that. now in 6 months if they are saying 'you aren't old enough to play in this sandbox' then you've got something to gripe about.

If they're serious about making a decent splash, it would seem they would have started out with more than ten albums.
post #50 of 104
The line is blurring between Apple and Microsoft's tactics more and more these days.

Can I find a new underdog computer company?
post #51 of 104
It's my impression this is a proprietary format that can only be sold on the iTunes store. It seems to me Apple should have developed an open standard that would give a product that could be sold from any web site and loaded into iTunes just like any track. Then any company would be able to provide software for creation/playback of LPs and to repeat myself, be sold for instance, by Amazon.com, or as a download from anyone's web site. Given the dominance of iTunes this would entirely avoid any antitrust/monopoly implications.

Robert
post #52 of 104
Maybe there will be an update/ overhaul to iWeb (to make it actually usable) that produces LP content.
post #53 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by jinjo235 View Post

Let's say you take the LP idea over to a no-name freelance graphic designer/developer. Guess what...they'll charge you by the hour. In order to perfect it, make it visually appealing, really allow the artist to portray themselves and reach millions and millions of iTunes users they know they could charge you for it. An we are talking about a no name developer. Interactive applications, customer covers and interfaces and hosting is all, I believe iTunes has every right to charge 10K!

But they actually do some work for you. If you have some knowledge, you can create decent LP by yourself for $0.
Apple will charge $10000 just to let you in, doing exactly nothing for you. They just abuse their monopoly. Disgusting.
post #54 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by palegolas View Post

Maybe there will be an update/ overhaul to iWeb (to make it actually usable) that produces LP content.

They wouldn't charge $10000 if they want to allow it for indies to develop it in next version of iWeb. Perhaps they change it after - surprise - they find out no one is interested in producing LP content.
post #55 of 104
Aren't graphic designers/ web developers a dime a dozen? I'm having a pretty hard time believing that $10,000 is a perfectly reasonable fee for what is basically a glorified Flash movie that one or two guys could throw together in a week and make it look really good.
post #56 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by charlituna View Post

this would seem to be to be the key statement. this (and the Extras feature) are a test. see if there is interest, work out the kinks etc. if you watch the keynote, Jobs even indicates that the labels and artists will be making these things themselves. which actually makes me wonder if the price mentioned was actually a sign up to get all the tools and not an album by album cost. Once the project is deemed viable.

and yeah I know, someone is going to say that an Apple Rep says. well guess what, it wouldn't be the first time an Apple Rep got something wrong. An Apple Rep assured me that I would have no problems with my Epson printer when I updated to Snow Leopard but oops, I sure did have problems. cause Epson had not written an SL driver yet. And I've had other Apple Reps make similar mistakes. Point being that just cause someone is an Apple Rep doesn't mean they can't misunderstand or poorly state infomation.



note the part I put in bold. this whole experiment is only about 6 weeks old if that. now in 6 months if they are saying 'you aren't old enough to play in this sandbox' then you've got something to gripe about.

First, I used to develop websites and am an iPhone developer. I even developed standalone desktop-resident and DVD-resident websites before apple invented widgets.

I looked at a couple of LP files and they are mainly HTML, CSS, and JavaScript-- common tools in the toolbag of web or widget developers. There is a proprietary framework that "plays" the content through iTunes.

I, briefly, considered reverse engineering the package to allow me to create an LP that played through Quicktime (bypassing iTunes).

However, what I am really interested in is the tools and the IDE that are used in creating an LP package (rather than the contents of the package, itself).

I am particularly interested in creating "LPs" of music videos and video podcasts.

In the LP announcement*, Steve Jobs said that:

Quote:
...and the artists, themselves, can get involved in creating these things. We are giving all the tools to the labels and the artists, so that they can bring their creativity directly to the listeners.

The emphasis is Steve's.

So, it seems that these "tools" do exist in some form. They could be a single integrated LP IDE. More likely they are a group of existing tools cobbled together (GarageBand, iMovie, iPhoto, iTunes, Preview, DashCode, iWeb).

Apple, certainly has software bits that can do all the things necessary to create an LP... but I suspect that there is no single, integrated tool-- yet!

But, I believe there will be a tool when Apple gets it together.

If I didn't know better, I'd say that iTunes LP is manna from heaven made specifically for Indie houses.


Dick



* The iTunes LP announcement:

http://itunes.apple.com/WebObjects/M...4&id=275834665



You can watch the whole thing, or just scrub in to:

07:40 where the discussion of iTunes begins
13:23 where Steve Jobs introduces iTunes LP
14:46 where Steve discusses the LP tools
19:21 where the iTunes store is demoed
21:45 where iTunes LP is demoed

*
"...The calm is on the water and part of us would linger by the shore, For ships are safe in harbor, but that's not what ships are for."
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post #57 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brainless View Post

They wouldn't charge $10000 if they want to allow it for indies to develop it in next version of iWeb. Perhaps they change it after - surprise - they find out no one is interested in producing LP content.

Maybe Apple learned something from the app store, and they didn't want to be overwhelmed by the demand.

Or, maybe the "LP package" is still a work-in-process and Apple wants to work with a limited number of creatives to refine it.

Or, maybe the "tools" for creating LPs aren't up to Apple's standards for general release to the public, developers, artists.

In any case, Apple can control the situation by adding an arbitrarily-expensive "cover charge".

I believe Apple does not want to get into the LP content creation business. This "cover charge" is merely a way to bring some order to the process of: refining the package; defining the procedures; preparing the software; preparing the iTunes store; and preparing the creatives and developers.

Then, when it's "all together", Apple announces the "LP Creation Package" and removes the cover charge (admitting the general public).

*
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post #58 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by teckstud View Post

Remember "Video Killed the Radio Star"? This is like "iPod Killed the LP Star"!
Digital booklets are a joke. Apple is trying to resurrect a dead art form I guess because they helped kill it in the first place.

Where can one find that green garbage bag when you need it most?
post #59 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by stonefree View Post

Aren't graphic designers/ web developers a dime a dozen? I'm having a pretty hard time believing that $10,000 is a perfectly reasonable fee for what is basically a glorified Flash movie that one or two guys could throw together in a week and make it look really good.



Well, do you have all the pictures and video already shot, edited and in the can?

Or, do you need expensive/powerful software (and the training to use it), computers, cameras, lenses, videoCams, Lighting, studio time, etc., to prepare the LP content.

Any special effects, e.g. green screen, compositing, rotoscoping?

How long does it take to make .pngs of all the lyrics and textual content?


Even if all the video and pictures exist, it can take hours of editing to create a few minutes of content.

I have about $10,000 worth of software (Final Cut Studio, Photoshop, Canvas, special plugins and filters, etc).

I have $1,500 worth of VideoCam equipment that I use to take video of the grandkids (3) soccer games-- about 1 hour per game.

I have 7 Macs and 20 Terabytes of external hard disk (video files are quite big-- 1 hour of video is about 57 Gig).

When I get home I import and examine the footage looking for highlights (importing takes about 50 minutes per hour of video). This is a tedious process just locating the clips you want to use. Once you have the clips, you need to manipulate them into a acceptable presentation-- arranging, cutouts, compositing, adjusting color, size, cropping, freeze frame, slow motion, synch background music and sound effects.

It can easily take hours (or even days) to get everything just right for a 2-minute highlight,

So, no, I don't think $10,000 is unreasonable... if anything, it is much too low.

*
"...The calm is on the water and part of us would linger by the shore, For ships are safe in harbor, but that's not what ships are for."
- Michael Lille -
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- Michael Lille -
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post #60 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dlux View Post

Don't you have other forums somewhere to share your wisdom?

No and you?
post #61 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by Abster2core View Post

Where can one find that green garbage bag when you need it most?

Well the truth meter must be working, hence your venom.
post #62 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

Well, do you have all the pictures and video already shot, edited and in the can?

Or, do you need expensive/powerful software (and the training to use it), computers, cameras, lenses, videoCams, Lighting, studio time, etc., to prepare the LP content.

Any special effects, e.g. green screen, compositing, rotoscoping?

How long does it take to make .pngs of all the lyrics and textual content?


Even if all the video and pictures exist, it can take hours of editing to create a few minutes of content.

I have about $10,000 worth of software (Final Cut Studio, Photoshop, Canvas, special plugins and filters, etc).

I have $1,500 worth of VideoCam equipment that I use to take video of the grandkids (3) soccer games-- about 1 hour per game.

I have 7 Macs and 20 Terabytes of external hard disk (video files are quite big-- 1 hour of video is about 57 Gig).

When I get home I import and examine the footage looking for highlights (importing takes about 50 minutes per hour of video). This is a tedious process just locating the clips you want to use. Once you have the clips, you need to manipulate them into a acceptable presentation-- arranging, cutouts, compositing, adjusting color, size, cropping, freeze frame, slow motion, synch background music and sound effects.

It can easily take hours (or even days) to get everything just right for a 2-minute highlight,

So, no, I don't think $10,000 is unreasonable... if anything, it is much too low.

*

So, according to your logic, for each LP Apple buys 10.000 worth of equipment, and then throws it away, so that the next client is forced to pay another 10.000? Ha. I kid.

But seriously, if LPs are web-like, development costs should be very low. If I had a band, all I wanted to put in it would be cover art, lyrics, band bio and some extra photos.
post #63 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by the cool gut View Post

That is not a good analogy. It would be more like Apple charging you $10 000 to build your app and you just provide the images etc. Not a bad deal really - when you consider how slick these things look. They are even better than most websites these bands have.

So if it takes them months to approve an app how long do you think it will take them to build an LP? You have got to be kidding. apple would need thousands of builders. That's ridiculous. Especially when my team can build a presentation like this in about a week including generating the content. I doubt building every LP is Apple's plan.
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post #64 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by charlituna View Post

this would seem to be to be the key statement. this (and the Extras feature) are a test. see if there is interest, work out the kinks etc.

and yeah I know, someone is going to say that an Apple Rep says. well guess what, it wouldn't be the first time an Apple Rep got something wrong. this whole experiment is only about 6 weeks old if that. now in 6 months if they are saying 'you aren't old enough to play in this sandbox' then you've got something to gripe about.

Agreed. This is what I am thinking. It probably will change. The only thing that may prevent that from happening are the concessions to the major labels. Certainly when we are talking about delivering magazines or comics this policy can't hold true either. Unless they are looking at preventing indies in other mediums from selling on the ITMS as well but that just sounds like it would give people an opportunity to slam Apple some more.
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post #65 of 104
So… why don’t Indy artists just grab the HTML, CSS, JS templates and create their own iTunes LP-like content that will open up in a web browser free of charge? Why not just create a new file type (example: artist_name.olp for Open LP) that will do everything that iTunes LP will do but without requiring iTunes to work. It seems odd that Indy artists are upset that they can’t be more tied to iTunes.
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post #66 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

Well, do you have all the pictures and video already shot, edited and in the can?

Or, do you need expensive/powerful software (and the training to use it), computers, cameras, lenses, videoCams, Lighting, studio time, etc., to prepare the LP content.

Any special effects, e.g. green screen, compositing, rotoscoping?

How long does it take to make .pngs of all the lyrics and textual content?


Even if all the video and pictures exist, it can take hours of editing to create a few minutes of content.

I have about $10,000 worth of software (Final Cut Studio, Photoshop, Canvas, special plugins and filters, etc).

I have $1,500 worth of VideoCam equipment that I use to take video of the grandkids (3) soccer games-- about 1 hour per game.

I have 7 Macs and 20 Terabytes of external hard disk (video files are quite big-- 1 hour of video is about 57 Gig).

When I get home I import and examine the footage looking for highlights (importing takes about 50 minutes per hour of video). This is a tedious process just locating the clips you want to use. Once you have the clips, you need to manipulate them into a acceptable presentation-- arranging, cutouts, compositing, adjusting color, size, cropping, freeze frame, slow motion, synch background music and sound effects.

It can easily take hours (or even days) to get everything just right for a 2-minute highlight,

So, no, I don't think $10,000 is unreasonable... if anything, it is much too low.

*

Thanks for the reply. I can see the value in what you detailed, particularly with producing the video. Editing, less so, as video editors also seem to be in pretty high abundance, even many talented ones.

Nonetheless, I don't think Apple's package is including very much of what you described. Maybe converting text to pngs. You asked how long that takes. 15 minutes? I certainly don't think Apple will be sending a crew over to the band to film them. I seriously doubt there's much if any editing involved either. It seems a case of you send us the graphics, video, text and we assemble it.

I think Daniel was really stretching his reality distortion field for this article. Physical media like Blu Ray is not a valid comparison to, what I said before, is basically a glorified Flash movie. And saying the fee is necessary for quality control? Didn't he recently criticize MS for instituting a per app submission fee? If anything, the App store, not iTunes, needs a submission fee.
post #67 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

Well, do you have all the pictures and video already shot, edited and in the can?

Or, do you need expensive/powerful software (and the training to use it), computers, cameras, lenses, videoCams, Lighting, studio time, etc., to prepare the LP content.

Any special effects, e.g. green screen, compositing, rotoscoping?

How long does it take to make .pngs of all the lyrics and textual content?


Even if all the video and pictures exist, it can take hours of editing to create a few minutes of content.

I have about $10,000 worth of software (Final Cut Studio, Photoshop, Canvas, special plugins and filters, etc).

I have $1,500 worth of VideoCam equipment that I use to take video of the grandkids (3) soccer games-- about 1 hour per game.

I have 7 Macs and 20 Terabytes of external hard disk (video files are quite big-- 1 hour of video is about 57 Gig).

When I get home I import and examine the footage looking for highlights (importing takes about 50 minutes per hour of video). This is a tedious process just locating the clips you want to use. Once you have the clips, you need to manipulate them into a acceptable presentation-- arranging, cutouts, compositing, adjusting color, size, cropping, freeze frame, slow motion, synch background music and sound effects.

It can easily take hours (or even days) to get everything just right for a 2-minute highlight,

So, no, I don't think $10,000 is unreasonable... if anything, it is much too low.

*

And then there are client changes, legal concerns, copyrights, patents, logos, and more client changes, etc. And there are more persons involved and who won't do it for nothing.
post #68 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by stonefree View Post

Thanks for the reply. I can see the value in what you detailed, particularly with producing the video. Editing, less so, as video editors also seem to be in pretty high abundance, even many talented ones.

Nonetheless, I don't think Apple's package is including very much of what you described. Maybe converting text to pngs. You asked how long that takes. 15 minutes? I certainly don't think Apple will be sending a crew over to the band to film them. I seriously doubt there's much if any editing involved either. It seems a case of you send us the graphics, video, text and we assemble it.

I think Daniel was really stretching his reality distortion field for this article. Physical media like Blu Ray is not a valid comparison to, what I said before, is basically a glorified Flash movie. And saying the fee is necessary for quality control? Didn't he recently criticize MS for instituting a per app submission fee? If anything, the App store, not iTunes, needs a submission fee.

So what is holding you back? Or anybody else that is complaining?
post #69 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by ediedi View Post

So, according to your logic, for each LP Apple buys 10.000 worth of equipment, and then throws it away, so that the next client is forced to pay another 10.000? Ha. I kid.

But seriously, if LPs are web-like, development costs should be very low. If I had a band, all I wanted to put in it would be cover art, lyrics, band bio and some extra photos.

I didn't make my point clearly enough.

Let me try this:

If Apple does, in fact, charge $10,000 per LP album to create the package.

If the necessary content (pictures, videos, lyrics, credits, background material for each song, etc.) already exists.

It takes creative skilled people, with talent, with training, with professional hardware and software, to put together a LP package.

I have an example where all the content is available and all the skill, hardware, software and training is already in place.

In my case, I am using about 14 seconds of game play to create 2 minutes of video (with audio background) to present a soccer highlight. This is roughly equivalent to 1 song in a 12-song LP album.

First, I get the content into a format I could manipulate (uploading from the camera).

Then I spent several hours reviewing the footage to see what I had-- jumping back and forth marking points of interest.

To do this I have to be knowledgeable about the game of soccer, the particular players, the position of people on and off screen. A good coach once told me that: "Goals don't win soccer games, Defense wins soccer games... provide a good defense and the goals will happen".

So, after identifying the clips and bits I can use, I put together a prototype of what looks good.

At this point I am several hours into the process.

Now, i see how it plays-- parts are too light/dark/blurry. They need to be corrected.

Then, I decide to insert a freeze frame here and another further down, with a slow-motion lead-in.

The freeze frame needs to be cropped or otherwise highlighted for emphasis.

This is an iterative process, going over things, adding, modifying, deleting.

For example my original 14-second sequence shows a sweeper getting the ball near center line, kicking it over everyone's heads and it bounces in front of the goal, where a teammate heads it into the net. I have a freeze frame of the kick, a slowmo of the ball bouncing and another freeze of the header. I need cropped and enlarged portraits to highlight the 2 players-- the kicker is easy, but all I have is the back of the header player. So, back to the original video to see if I can find a workable portrait of the second player, that won't look out of context.

I usually add a prolog, titles, some text panels explaining what is happening, and an epilog. This takes time selecting fonts that will look good at various resolutions, colors, fades, wipes, and entering the actual content.

On this particular project, it took about 8 hours to get to this point. Isolating individual action shots on a field of running players is tough!

Then, I wanted some upbeat background music-- I picked a segment of a song by trial and error, and found a match I liked after about 30 minutes.

Once this was done, the process of synching the video with the audio began. What I attempt to do here is match up points in the audio with key points in the video: a drumroll as a player approaches the ball then a rimshot or symbol clash at the point of impact. This is done by fiddling with the video, clipping/extending to match the audio.

This too, is iterative, and each time you need to review more and more of what you have done as the project nears completion.

On this particular project, I used Arlo Guthrie's St. Louis Tickle for the opening and main video, then Liberty Bell March (Monty Python Theme) for the trailer credits and short video of a Beckham midfield goal from 1996.

When I was happy, about 11 hours in, I uploaded the video to YouTube in HD format. After about 40 minutes, the video was available but the audio was disabled-- YouTube didn't accept the "Tickle" audio.

So, back to the drawing boards. I spent an hour trying various "acceptable" audio tracks, but couldn't find one I liked. So I redid the whole thing with the Monty Python track and just ignored the A/V synching.

After 12 hours of work, I had my 2:18 duration video "published".


I didn't use expensive software for this, Just iMovie, iTunes, iPhoto and Garageband.


The point is, it took someone:

1) who knew what he was doing
2) was familiar with the content and context

many hours to package a single video.

I wasn't concerned with the logistics and juxtaposition of multiple songs in an album. I wasn't concerned with HTML, CSS, or JavaScript to present a LP widget. I wasn't concerned with lyrics or background material.


Just doing the video is not an easy job.


In an earlier post I stated that I don't think Apple wants to get into the LP creation business. Rather, they are using the $10,000 as an entry fee or cover charge so they can control the process while they gain experience.

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post #70 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by spliff monkey View Post

so if it takes them months to approve an app how long do you think it will take them to build an lp? You have got to be kidding. Apple would need thousands of builders. That's ridiculous. Especially when my team can build a presentation like this in about a week including generating the content. I doubt building every lp is apple's plan.

+++ qft
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post #71 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by stonefree View Post

Thanks for the reply. I can see the value in what you detailed, particularly with producing the video. Editing, less so, as video editors also seem to be in pretty high abundance, even many talented ones.

That may be true, but unless the video editors are familiar with the artist and their work, it may take a lot of involvement by the artist working with the editor (as the dollar-sign odometer spins).

I think it is Apple's goal to have a tool where the artists can create (or at least storyboard) their LPs.

Quote:
Nonetheless, I don't think Apple's package is including very much of what you described. Maybe converting text to pngs. You asked how long that takes. 15 minutes?

15 minutes of mechanical time... maybe, for each song. But then there's the selection of fonts colors transitions, backgrounds. This is an artistic process that probably takes several iterations to get right (even with a tool to automate the process).

Quote:

I certainly don't think Apple will be sending a crew over to the band to film them. I seriously doubt there's much if any editing involved either. It seems a case of you send us the graphics, video, text and we assemble it.

I mostly agree with this! I believe Apple is working with a few flagship creatives to help define the Package, Process and Tools. I think that, ultimately, Apple wants to get complete LP packages from the creatives.

Quote:

I think Daniel was really stretching his reality distortion field for this article. Physical media like Blu Ray is not a valid comparison to, what I said before, is basically a glorified Flash movie. And saying the fee is necessary for quality control? Didn't he recently criticize MS for instituting a per app submission fee? If anything, the App store, not iTunes, needs a submission fee.

Yeah, DED usually seems to have an underlying agenda, and sometimes manipulates facts to fit that agenda.

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post #72 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by Abster2core View Post

So what is holding you back? Or anybody else that is complaining?

Holding me back from what? My only concern is Apple suppressing indie content.

Quote:
And then there are client changes, legal concerns, copyrights, patents, logos, and more client changes, etc. And there are more persons involved and who won't do it for nothing.

Who said anything about all that? That's the label and artist's concerns. All Apple is doing is assembling finished content into a proprietary wrapper.
post #73 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

In an earlier post I stated that I don't think Apple wants to get into the LP creation business. Rather, they are using the $10,000 as an entry fee or cover charge so they can control the process while they gain experience.

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That is definitely the point of the fee. I can imagine that being flooded with thousands of LP's for approval is exactly what Apple doesn't want. They've have a hard of enough time approving the Apps. The fee is definitely a cost above and beyond actually producing the LP content which is my only gripe, but at the same time I think it's smart to encourage serious development.

With client fixes/ approvals/ changes/ re-edits I'm sure Apple and the producer would both rather that a finished product goes to Apple. They definitely do not "approve" or proof TV shows (there are many glitches on the ITMS) nor do they really "approve" or proof the music. The idea of approval really stems from the App store. Apple would be overextending themselves in this case so it seems evident that the current scheme is temporary and we'll be building our own LP's soon enough.

The fee itself is another matter, while it is understandable for a number of reasons, I think it could be smaller since I don't need Apple to build an HTML 5 presentation for me. That's just putting effort into the wrong place and it sounds like a nightmare.

Tough situation for Apple especially since they've already stated that they don't want to have multiple rules for every medium (music, movies/ TV, print, Apps) on the store.

It'll be interesting to see how they shape the process for print media, which is going to be particularly difficult given that the magazine has to be updated daily, weekly or monthly. It could get very expensive, but if the publishers were able to offset their print costs (which are also very expensive) a fee as in the LP scheme might be reasonable. Depends on your formula for ROI and how dedicate/ confident you are to electronic media delivery.
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post #74 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by teckstud View Post

Remember "Video Killed the Radio Star"? This is like "iPod Killed the LP Star"!
Digital booklets are a joke. Apple is trying to resurrect a dead art form I guess because they helped kill it in the first place.

the peer to peer pirates killed it
apple saved it
whats in a name ? 
beatles
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whats in a name ? 
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post #75 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by spliff monkey View Post

With client fixes/ approvals/ changes/ re-edits I'm sure Apple and the producer would both rather that a finished product goes to Apple. They definitely do not "approve" or proof TV shows (there are many glitches on the ITMS) nor do they really "approve" or proof the music. The idea of approval really stems from the App store. Apple would be overextending themselves in this case so it seems evident that the current scheme is temporary and we'll be building our own LP's soon enough.

I think the difference might be that audio and video are linear media. It's not likely to misbehave, and it's likely to be to Apple's technical specs if they use Apple's encoders. iTunes LP and apps are interactive and there is interpreted or executed code in the product. Just a thought.
post #76 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by spliff monkey View Post

It'll be interesting to see how they shape the process for print media, which is going to be particularly difficult given that the magazine has to be updated daily, weekly or monthly. It could get very expensive, but if the publishers were able to offset their print costs (which are also very expensive) a fee as in the LP scheme might be reasonable. Depends on your formula for ROI and how dedicate/ confident you are to electronic media delivery.

I think that Apple will handle print like podcasts, where each issue is an entity, unto itself... you don't update or replace existing issues, you just add the next issue. With podcasts, Apple already has the subscription mechanism in place for free content. For paid content, the payment mechanism is handled by the provider, not Apple. Apple provides search and access to the content. The content resides on the provider's servers.

Some of this could change for magazines, newsletters, newspapers, etc., but the pieces are already in place.

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post #77 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by spliff monkey View Post

That is definitely the point of the fee. I can imagine that being flooded with thousands of LP's for approval is exactly what Apple doesn't want. They've have a hard of enough time approving the Apps. The fee is definitely a cost above and beyond actually producing the LP content which is my only gripe, but at the same time I think it's smart to encourage serious development.

Since you have current experience, consider an LP, like Nora Jones-- where the artist came to you with:

1) audio, video and images of the target quality/resolution
2) all the textual material that needs to be converted to appropriate .png files
3) an overall idea/mockup/storyboard of what the album would contain and how the various components would interact,

What currently-available tools would you use?

How long would it take in elapsed time and man hours?

With just basic HTML, CSS and JavaScript?

With a LP IDE tool: with capabilities like like parts of DashCode, iMovie, iWeb, etc.; and some predefined templates?

What price range would you charge?


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"...The calm is on the water and part of us would linger by the shore, For ships are safe in harbor, but that's not what ships are for."
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post #78 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by teckstud

Remember "Video Killed the Radio Star"? This is like "iPod Killed the LP Star"!
Digital booklets are a joke. Apple is trying to resurrect a dead art form I guess because they helped kill it in the first place.

Quote:
Originally Posted by brucep View Post

the peer to peer pirates killed it
apple saved it

I would only add:

in spite of the labels

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post #79 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

I agree. But as for the burner, maybe they meant a BD duplicator? I'm pretty sure BD duplicators are cheaper than that now, I thought I saw one for half that price, and it included a printer setup for printing a design onto the disc.

I would suggest rereading the article and even following the links, e.g., http://digitalcontentproducer.com/vi.../bluray_blues/
post #80 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by stonefree View Post

Aren't graphic designers/ web developers a dime a dozen? I'm having a pretty hard time believing that $10,000 is a perfectly reasonable fee for what is basically a glorified Flash movie that one or two guys could throw together in a week and make it look really good.

Perhaps you too should reread this article and in particular, "iTunes LP, as AppleInsider was among the first to report, is essentially a self-contained web application and the relatedlinki.e.,


"A look at how iTunes LP and Extras work

Now look at how iTunes Extras are built: while distributed as a single file, the item is really a bundle (a folder that Mac OS X treats as a file) that amounts to a self-contained web site. It acts as a container for folders of standard PNG and JPEG graphics, AAC audio, and H.264 video content together with HTML and CSS presentation and JavaScript code.

Dig deeper into these files and youll see references to TuneKit, Apples internal name for a JavaScript framework fusing WebKit and iTunes as a way to deliver rich, interactive content. This extras project was originally called Cocktail." http://www.roughlydrafted.com/2009/0...d-at-apple-tv/

By the way, how much do you expect to pay for 80-100 hours to throw your amateur production together?
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