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Apple criticized over iTunes LP development costs - Page 3

post #81 of 104
10/11/09 at 5:52am
for an indie label that's a strange complaint... it would be nice if Apple would let smaller artists develop their own LP designs over SDK and then submit for review via Apple. i do agree with the author, that $10,000 is not necessarily surprising, if Apple is really going to take the time and effort to do professional design of each LP they are handed.
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post #82 of 104
10/11/09 at 6:08am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Abster2core View Post

I would suggest rereading the article and even following the links, e.g., http://digitalcontentproducer.com/vi.../bluray_blues/

Wow, I'm unaccustomed to an AI article having sufficient links. But I noticed something about the linked article:

Quote:
Jun 1, 2008

A lot of those numbers regarding Blu-Ray costs are considerably different this year.

I haven't found a primera that's cheaper, but I did see a name brand BD publisher unit for $1500 at the NAB this year, I forget the exact details.

Though as a lot have noted, it's still not an apt comparison, off topic actually, the technology in iTunes LP is competing more with interactive PDFs, not Blu-Ray.
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post #83 of 104
10/11/09 at 7:27am
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

Wow, I'm unaccustomed to an AI article having sufficient links. But I noticed something about the linked article:



A lot of those numbers regarding Blu-Ray costs are considerably different this year.

I haven't found a primera that's cheaper, but I did see a name brand BD publisher unit for $1500 at the NAB this year, I forget the exact details.

Though as a lot have noted, it's still not an apt comparison, off topic actually, the technology in iTunes LP is competing more with interactive PDFs, not Blu-Ray.

Read the article carefully. It is not off topic. The author was simply outlining an alternative.

People are reading the article too quickly. Not checking out the links; that I have always done before I would take a statement for their word as posted here.

"If you produced the recordable discs inhouse, you could probably buy the media for about $1,200 to $1,500, but then you'd need to manually reproduce and print them, which means buying a Blu-ray printer/recorder, which starts at about $3,000 (see primera.com). It probably makes better economic sense to buy the printer/recorder and reproduce the discs yourself, but either way, you'd end up with 100 discs that wouldn't play reliably in the field."

I don't know about you, but sitting around swapping disks is expensive doing it one at a time and then verifying it for, what?

For the life of me, attempting to develop the level of creativity that Apple is exemplifying via some junior desktop publishing strategy is beyond me.
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post #84 of 104
10/11/09 at 7:30am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Abster2core View Post

Read the article carefully. It is not off topic. The author was simply outlining an alternative.

Not a good alternative for this use, I doubt ever remotely intended for it, so what is the point? If you're doing an apples-and-oranges kinds of alternatives, and that we're apt to using sledgehammers to do a flyswatter's job, then maybe. If you're concerned about selecting the best tool for the job, Blu-Ray isn't really a valid alternative in this case. An interactive PDF is.

It's a pretty blazing blind spot in my opinion, it is completely ignoring the obvious applicable alternative vs. one that's a lot less obvious and probably even orthogonal to the task. I would even suggest that Blu-Ray was picked because it's more of a hot button-technology and DED can start citing exorbitant costs to make LP look good in comparison, when it's completely unnecessary to do so. Maybe the Blu-Ray section wouldn't be out of place if DED outlined a few more alternatives that are closer to what iTunes LP offers.
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post #85 of 104
10/11/09 at 7:55am
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

Not a good alternative for this use, I doubt ever remotely intended for it, so what is the point? If you're doing an apples-and-oranges kinds of alternatives, and that we're apt to using sledgehammers to do a flyswatter's job. If you're concerned about using the right tool for the right job, Blu-Ray isn't really a valid alternative in this case. An interactive PDF is. It's a pretty blazing blind spot in my opinion, it is completely ignoring the obvious applicable alternative vs. one that's a lot less obvious and probably even orthogonal to the task.

Read the article again. It is not suggesting that it is an alternative per se. It is only outliningg a scenario, that if you don't want to use Apple's LP and Extras that, "Authoring any sort of interactive content, which "is essentially a self-contained web application," is expensive.

And thus the suggestion: "What's the alternative? For indies wanting to author a Blu-Ray disc"
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post #86 of 104
10/11/09 at 8:06am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Abster2core View Post

Read the article again. It is not suggesting that it is an alternative per se. It is only outliningg a scenario, that if you don't want to use Apple's LP and Extras that, "Authoring any sort of interactive content, which "…is essentially a self-contained web application," is expensive.

And thus the suggestion: "What's the alternative? For indies wanting to author a Blu-Ray disc…"

Shouldn't it say "What are the alternatives?" That would at least suggest that there are more than one, DED's wording would suggest there aren't others.

So you don't think there might be an odd selection bias in using a couple whole paragraphs for the least apt and most expensive alternative and glossing over or ignoring more appropriate alternatives to the task? That's part of the definition of propaganda.

In comparison, DVD and flash are barely mentioned in passing, and their expenses not outlined. And not even a mention of the one major technology that's most like iTunes LP, where you can download it as a single file/bundle and use it without requiring a web site, much like iTunes LP. I forgot about Adobe Air too, two pretty major alternatives that behave similarly to iTunes LP, not mentioned.
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post #87 of 104
10/11/09 at 8:35am
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

So you don't think there's an odd selection bias in using a couple whole paragraphs for the least apt and most expensive alternative and glossing over or ignoring more appropriate alternatives to the task? That's part of the definition of propaganda.

In comparison, DVD and flash are barely mentioned in passing, and their expenses not outlined. And not even a mention of the one major technology that's most like iTunes LP, where you can download it as a single file/bundle and use it without requiring a web site, much like iTunes LP. I forgot about Adobe Air too, two pretty major alternatives that behave similarly to iTunes LP, not mentioned.

Did you read the article?

"Of course, these fees are helping to create the dismal market for Blu-Ray. One can also author DVDs for cheaper, or develop Flash or other custom apps or web sites that add some extra bonus content to standard CDs. But it has always been fantastically expensive to author content.

Many efforts over the years to launch a format for authored content have never really taken off*, from Apple's early attempts to promote QuickTime content on CD-ROMs to CD+Graphics, Mega-LD, Video CD, Philips/3DO CDi, Commodore's CDTV, Super Audio CD, DVD-Audio, and Sony's PSP UMDs.

And it never will, especially with all the shit and worse the way most of it has been used out there right now or the way some want to use to dump on iTunes.
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post #88 of 104
10/11/09 at 8:43am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Abster2core View Post

Did you read the article?

"Of course, these fees are helping to create the dismal market for Blu-Ray. One can also author DVDs for cheaper, or develop Flash or other custom apps or web sites that add some extra bonus content to standard CDs. But it has always been fantastically expensive to author content.

Many efforts over the years to launch a format for authored content have never really taken off*, from Apple's early attempts to promote QuickTime content on CD-ROMs to CD+Graphics, Mega-LD, Video CD, Philips/3DO CDi, Commodore's CDTV, Super Audio CD, DVD-Audio, and Sony's PSP UMDs.

And it never will, especially with all the shit and worse the way most of it has been used out there right now or the way some want to use to dump on iTunes.

Did you read what I wrote? I did say that the article mentions DVD and flash, which is why I said "they were barely mentioned in passing". You even quoted that part. Why go to so much detail about the least applicable modern format but barely mention the more applicable ones and completely omit the most similar ones? That's the elephant in the room that you're trying to get me to ignore.

I think it's odd that a bunch of other obsolete formats are mentioned, but not interactive PDF or Adobe Air, both of which are more comparable to iTunes LP than any of the other formats mentioned.
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post #89 of 104
10/11/09 at 9:05am
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

Did you read what I wrote? I did say that the article mentions DVD and flash, which is why I said "they were barely mentioned in passing". You even quoted that part. Why go to so much detail about the least applicable modern format but barely mention the more applicable ones and completely omit the most similar ones? That's the elephant in the room that you're trying to get me to ignore.

I think it's odd that a bunch of other obsolete formats are mentioned, but not interactive PDF or Adobe Air, both of which are more comparable to iTunes LP than any of the other formats mentioned.

It is not comparable at all, particulary, Extras>
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post #90 of 104
10/11/09 at 9:25am
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

Did you read what I wrote? I did say that the article mentions DVD and flash, which is why I said "they were barely mentioned in passing". You even quoted that part. Why go to so much detail about the least applicable modern format but barely mention the more applicable ones and completely omit the most similar ones? That's the elephant in the room that you're trying to get me to ignore.

I think it's odd that a bunch of other obsolete formats are mentioned, but not interactive PDF or Adobe Air, both of which are more comparable to iTunes LP than any of the other formats mentioned.


For us illiratti: what you seem to be proposing is an alternative to the iTunes LP package, Correct?

A downloadable interactive PDF file?

I don't have experience with Interactive PDF (other than being able to annotate PDF files). How does Interactive PDF compare, strengths and weaknesses, with a desktop web site (which an iTunes LP, essentially, is)?

Can an interactive PDF be programmed and scripted? If so, what language is used? Is it proprietary or open?


A while back, for other purposes, I did create web applications (web sites, actually) that ran on the desktop or from CD/DVD (if the content was read-only). These included a web server, SQL database, web application programming system (PHP, ColdFusion, etc.), the application program, and the content, in a single package.

The web application programming languages, at the time, were much faster, and much more powerful than JavaScript. When run locally (CD/DVD or the desktop) they could even interface the CLI level to perform OS system functions.

This certainly could have been used with QuickTime to do what an iTunes LP package does, or imitate a DVD on the desktop. It would have been overkill, though.

But, if Interactive PDF, is open, powerful, easily programmed, easy to use... it should be considered by artists and developers to enhance the user experience.

Tell me more?

*
"So at the end of the presentation, Steve came up to me and said: Is the iPhone worth criticizing? And I said: Make the screen five inches by eight inches, and you’ll rule the world."
– Alan Kay –
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"So at the end of the presentation, Steve came up to me and said: Is the iPhone worth criticizing? And I said: Make the screen five inches by eight inches, and you’ll rule the world."
– Alan Kay –
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post #91 of 104
10/11/09 at 11:30am
Not to sound like Rush Limbaugh, but I hope LP fails.

I think it is Apple caving in to the Record labels as a way for them (labels) to gouge us some more. People like buying songs a-la-cart. Until the day when groups create true concept albums like the Who, Beatles, Pink Floyd and others did, then forget about it.
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post #92 of 104
10/11/09 at 12:32pm
Okay

Something I haven't seen discussed is the issue of LP content and more precisly the potential copyright violations. Apple being the sole publisher & distributer of these LP containers could very well find themselves inundated with more legal battles then anyone in the history of the court system.

Digital rights can be a real PITA, lots of old but still successful albums might have print rights to photos of famous paintings / works of art, photos taken by famous photographers and a ton of other examples and might assume they have the rights to continue using said content but don't.

Could you imagine the liability Apple would be exposed to if it let the flood gates open and started openly accepting LPs from everyone?
Apple Fanboy: Anyone who started liking Apple before I did!
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Apple Fanboy: Anyone who started liking Apple before I did!
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post #93 of 104
10/11/09 at 12:39pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by newbee View Post

I got the distinct impression that iTunes LPs were a concession to the major labels to allow albums instead of singles to be pushed. I think SJ was happy with things the way they were, except for drm resrictions ... am I wrong?

I don't know if it's a matter of being right or wrong, but I recall on several occasions Jobs was pining for Album art, liner notes, etc. Now he has them

Edit: And since when has Apple been content? That's part of their success.
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post #94 of 104
10/11/09 at 12:46pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chocolate Lab View Post

The barrier is Apple/iTunes. My entire point was that these are just glorified websites and that given a chance to create one myself I would have enjoyed offering it as bonus content to anyone interested. We're being told that Apple is deciding who can have them (major labels only) and at what price ($10,000 is what I was told).

For goodness sake, they just released it! The amount of whining on this is unbelievable.

Your absolutely right - Apple will never change or adapt. Apple is known for releasing something and then just sticking with it forever.


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post #95 of 104
10/11/09 at 2:57pm
Create your own iTunes LP, and distribute it yourself on your own website.

It's going to take some work, but it's not impossible to make your own .itlp file.

You'll probably have to buy a few iTunes LPs and dig through lots of code to figure out how they work, but you will learn how to make your own.

Then use something like Google's digital delivery function of Google checkout.

You've then just eliminated 2 headaches... You can make your own iTunes LP...and you control your own distribution making all the money (subtracting credit card/google checkout fees)! Talk about putting the gun in the artist's holster.

Future Apple/Record label headache.. Fan made iTunes LPs...
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post #96 of 104
10/11/09 at 3:04pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by techno View Post

Not to sound like Rush Limbaugh, but I hope LP fails.

I think it is Apple caving in to the Record labels as a way for them (labels) to gouge us some more. People like buying songs a-la-cart. Until the day when groups create true concept albums like the Who, Beatles, Pink Floyd and others did, then forget about it.

After giving your comment lots of thought, I disagree on several points:

1) Apple is not caving to the labels (they have their own LP format/store). Rather, Apple is trying to enhance the user experience.

2) People do like buying songs a' la carte-- but they also like buying albums and compilations. How neat would it be to buy an LP, and get the outtakes, as well as the background history of the song in a cameo by the contributing artists...not to mention the lyrics (in several languages), karaoke arrangements, tour shorts, etc. Creatives have much, much more to market than just the audio of a song.

3) What you [presently] see with the iTunes LP is only an humble beginning... in its full flower, it will allow consumers to directly interact with creatives, and vice versa, without compromising the space of either.

4) Finally, there are ways that today's creatives could package performances of bygone artists who didn't have the world (and fans) at their interactive fingertips. Consider a well done LP of, say, Elvis, the Beatles, Jimmy Durante, Al Jolson, Jelly Roll Morton...

my $.02

*

P.S. It ain't just about music!

*
"So at the end of the presentation, Steve came up to me and said: Is the iPhone worth criticizing? And I said: Make the screen five inches by eight inches, and you’ll rule the world."
– Alan Kay –
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"So at the end of the presentation, Steve came up to me and said: Is the iPhone worth criticizing? And I said: Make the screen five inches by eight inches, and you’ll rule the world."
– Alan Kay –
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post #97 of 104
10/11/09 at 8:27pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Abster2core View Post

It is not comparable at all, particulary, Extras>

I don't know for sure what was left out, but audio, video, 3D objects and flash can be embedded into a PDF. Just a Google of "PDF embed video" shows some how-tos.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

For us illiratti: what you seem to be proposing is an alternative to the iTunes LP package, Correct?

A downloadable interactive PDF file?

I don't have experience with Interactive PDF (other than being able to annotate PDF files). How does Interactive PDF compare, strengths and weaknesses, with a desktop web site (which an iTunes LP, essentially, is)?

Can an interactive PDF be programmed and scripted? If so, what language is used? Is it proprietary or open?

I really don't know the particulars, I am only tangentially involved in the content industry. But from what I've seen, they are valid alternatives.
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post #98 of 104
10/11/09 at 10:02pm
"Perl" Jam. I get it!
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post #99 of 104
10/12/09 at 1:15am
hey in this game of massive digital downloads and competitive artists, new artists need something to differentiate themselves. An LP takes the music to the next level. Adds value and more.

and $10k? I couldn't do it that cheap. I say these guys better kick their butts and sign up before apple realizes it's losing money and the rate goes higher!
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post #100 of 104
10/12/09 at 12:00pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

Did you read what I wrote? I did say that the article mentions DVD and flash, which is why I said "they were barely mentioned in passing". You even quoted that part. Why go to so much detail about the least applicable modern format but barely mention the more applicable ones and completely omit the most similar ones? That's the elephant in the room that you're trying to get me to ignore.

I think it's odd that a bunch of other obsolete formats are mentioned, but not interactive PDF or Adobe Air, both of which are more comparable to iTunes LP than any of the other formats mentioned.

Jeff, debate with Abster2Core is like arguing with a brick wall. Not worth your time.
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post #101 of 104
10/13/09 at 2:33pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Fix View Post

Create your own iTunes LP, and distribute it yourself on your own website.

It's going to take some work, but it's not impossible to make your own .itlp file.

You'll probably have to buy a few iTunes LPs and dig through lots of code to figure out how they work, but you will learn how to make your own.

Then use something like Google's digital delivery function of Google checkout.

You've then just eliminated 2 headaches... You can make your own iTunes LP...and you control your own distribution making all the money (subtracting credit card/google checkout fees)! Talk about putting the gun in the artist's holster.

Future Apple/Record label headache.. Fan made iTunes LPs...

Exactly....create your own...it's not THAT hard.
Just check out the Tuesday Spoils iTunes LP floating around.
Very professional looking iTunes LP.
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post #102 of 104
10/17/09 at 6:45pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by techno View Post

Not to sound like Rush Limbaugh, but I hope LP fails.

I think it is Apple caving in to the Record labels as a way for them (labels) to gouge us some more. People like buying songs a-la-cart. Until the day when groups create true concept albums like the Who, Beatles, Pink Floyd and others did, then forget about it.

I hope it succeeds. The more options customers are given, the greater the likelihood of some kind of a sale... "Would you like fries with your burger?"... And the best thing, there's no additional landfill from these LPs.

Proud AAPL stock owner.

 

GOA

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Proud AAPL stock owner.

 

GOA

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post #103 of 104
11/3/09 at 7:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveGee View Post

Okay

Something I haven't seen discussed is the issue of LP content and more precisly the potential copyright violations. Apple being the sole publisher & distributer of these LP containers could very well find themselves inundated with more legal battles then anyone in the history of the court system.

Digital rights can be a real PITA, lots of old but still successful albums might have print rights to photos of famous paintings / works of art, photos taken by famous photographers and a ton of other examples and might assume they have the rights to continue using said content but don't.

Could you imagine the liability Apple would be exposed to if it let the flood gates open and started openly accepting LPs from everyone?

I don't think this is true. Does Apple have liability for every sample that's illegally used and are they responsible for the mechanical royalties for every cover song? I don't have the answer, but I doubt it. There are some pretty long forms you have to sign when you submit your music. So, I don't think this is a good excuse.
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post #104 of 104
11/3/09 at 7:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by doug_jnr View Post

Exactly....create your own...it's not THAT hard.
Just check out the Tuesday Spoils iTunes LP floating around.
Very professional looking iTunes LP.

I have to disagree with you guys yet again. The sheer volume of people people using iTunes as their primary music player and the sheer amount of iTunes store traffic makes it so much more desirable than just hosting it on my own site.

Sure, I sell all our releases on our website for much less than iTunes, but I don't have the infrastructure, ease of use or trust that iTunes store comes with. I mean, who is going to trust our site to save their credit card information and let them buy with just a click and then receive an emailed invoice a week later like iTunes store does?

If Amazon had LPs then that'd be another story.
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