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Lessons learned from Steve Jobs' illness and public disclosure

post #1 of 79
Thread Starter 
When the head of a New York-based investment firm was hospitalized for a heart condition, the executive took a very different approach from Apple co-founder Steve Jobs' own health-related disclosure.

Lazard CEO Bruce Wasserstein felt little push-back from investors after he recently issued a short but poignant message, stating that he was hospitalized for an irregular heartbeat. "His condition is serious," the note said, "but he is stable and recovering."

It was a very different approach from the one taken at Apple early this year. In January, after months of rumors with no public response, Jobs ceded control of day-to-day operations. He returned to work in June after receiving a liver transplant.

In a new report from The Wall Street Journal, Michael Corkery examined the effect differing levels of disclosure had on the stock prices of both companies. His conclusion: "Openness can be healthy."

"The computer maker’s shares see-sawed when investors worried that the company was being less than forthcoming about the health of CEO Steve Jobs," the report said.

Apple’s secrecy surrounding the health of Jobs has had a major effect on Apple's stock price, while the open stance of Lazard resulted in a 1 percent drop. Throughout Jobs' career, Apple has been notoriously tight-lipped about the health of its chief and has always rebutted any questions about his health as being a "private matter." The report suggested that Wasserstein's more forthcoming approach was to his company's benefit.

"A CEO doesn’t want his company's stock price to go up when he gets sick because it means investors don’t consider him a critical asset," Corkery wrote. "But he doesn’t want it to tank either. By being straightforward about Wasserstein’s illness, Lazard is enabling investors to decide for themselves about the possibility of a leadership change at the storied firm."

Jobs began to buck his secrecy trend at the beginning of this year with his open letter to Apple fans about his apparent weight loss and failure to show at the Macworld keynote. When he returned to the stage at Apple’s annual music event in September, Jobs acknowledged his health.

"So, I’m vertical, I’m back at Apple and loving every minute of it," he said, "and working with some talented teams to come up with some great products for the future."
post #2 of 79
I dunno. It's 2 different industries. Jobs has always had a higher profile; heck, I didn't even know what this 'Lazard' was, much less who its CEO was. I don't think you can really compare the two.

Plus Apple has more of a cult-like following, rather than a business-like following. So I can see the paranoia more about Apple's CEO than most other companies.
post #3 of 79
What's the difference? Geez, I dunno, is Lazard CEO Bruce Wasserstein considered an icon for his industry? When people think investment firms, do they immediately picture Bruce Wasserstein? No offense to Mr. Wasserstein, and I truly hope he recovers, but the comparison is (forgive the pun) Apple and oranges...
post #4 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by frugality View Post

I dunno. It's 2 different industries. Jobs has always had a higher profile; heck, I didn't even know what this 'Lazard' was, much less who its CEO was. I don't think you can really compare the two.

Plus Apple has more of a cult-like following, rather than a business-like following. So I can see the paranoia more about Apple's CEO than most other companies.

Totally disagree, the point was that Apple caused bigger drama with Steve illness, then what was required and this could have been handled much better. As shareholder, I was dismayed at THE lack of information and secrecy behind his illness.

Btw:Lazard is BIG investment firm that handles a LOT of money for private investors and Bruce Wasserstein (he is one of the LEADER in investment industry http://www.businessweek.com/magazine...6/b4048007.htm) is main driver of the investment decisions. By telling the investors of his illness and that it maybe serious, but he is stable, it stops panic and people pulling their funds from the firm.

Steve has to be more upfront with his illness, especially since he is driving force of Apple and it is BUSINESS!

Apple need to have heir-apprant in wings that can take over, if anything happens to Steve. That Cook guy did very well, but not sure if he has the same innovation qualities as Steve.


P.S. Steve will know Bruce Wasserstein very well and vice versa, they both Billionaires (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruce_Wasserstein) and very succcessful business men!
post #5 of 79
Bruce who?


OMG here we go again...
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OMG here we go again...
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post #6 of 79
Really?

Is there any comparison between Jobs --fountainhead of a company that makes innovative products appreciated around the world-- and Lazard/Wasserstein --a corrupt, influence peddling financier? iCool vs. i-bank? Seriously?

For the uninformed, see: yield-burning scandal, fraud, kickbacks, etc.
post #7 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by gmo View Post

What's the difference? Geez, I dunno, is Lazard CEO Bruce Wasserstein considered an icon for his industry? When people think investment firms, do they immediately picture Bruce Wasserstein? No offense to Mr. Wasserstein, and I truly hope he recovers, but the comparison is (forgive the pun) Apple and oranges...

Actually Yes,Bruce Wasserstein is one of ICONs in investment industry and when he opens his mouth a look of people listen very carefully. Do a little research on this guy.
post #8 of 79
Jobs' executive staff took the reigns and kept Apple going without skipping a beat. That says a lot about how affective Jobs' leadership is. The company was shown to survive without him and Wall Street should know that Apple will be good after Jobs' leave for real and for good.

Jobs' health issue are not a public issue. He is only human.
post #9 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacTel View Post

Jobs' executive staff took the reigns and kept Apple going without skipping a beat. That says a lot about how affective Jobs' leadership is. The company was shown to survive without him and Wall Street should know that Apple will be good after Jobs' leave for real and for good.

Jobs' health issue are not a public issue. He is only human.

Wall Street should know, sorry mate, but they do not and it was evident at the time, with the stock price movement. Steve Jobs health was shareholders issue and WE had a right to know, since his health does affect the company performance.
Until a clear heir apparent is named and the secrecy is dropped, shareholders will hold Steve accountable for such behavior.

This has nothing to do with Steve being human, as WSJ said more about "Openness can be healthy."
post #10 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post


In a new report from The Wall Street Journal, Michael Corkery examined the effect differing levels of disclosure had on the stock prices of both companies. His conclusion: "Openness can be healthy."

Well, there's always the old adage about damage control:

Get it out early, get it out yourself!
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post #11 of 79
Agreed you're comparing Jesus to "that dude".

EDIT: I take back what I said... whoever said "do your research" was right. I should've done my research oops.
post #12 of 79
It's interesting, but the only distance you can reasonably go with two test cases is interesting conversation. There are simply too many possible variables.
post #13 of 79
"Lesson learned. . ."? What's the lesson, and who learned it?

As others have noted, there's no logical comparing of Apple, Inc. and an investment firm. They're too fundamentally different to be compared in any important way with each other.

I detest these critical, gossipy, cheap jabs at one of the few companies that is doing well these days.

It's no one else's business how Steve chooses to divulge his personal matters. Apple did a decent job without Steve while he was gone, and for that matter, who knows that he didn't have a hand in during at least part of his physical absence?

Daniel Swanson

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Daniel Swanson

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post #14 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by DanielSW View Post

"Lesson learned. . ."? What's the lesson, and who learned it?

As others have noted, there's no logical comparing of Apple, Inc. and an investment firm. They're too fundamentally different to be compared in any important way with each other.

I detest these critical, gossipy, cheap jabs at one of the few companies that is doing well these days.

It's no one else's business how Steve chooses to divulge his personal matters. Apple did a decent job without Steve while he was gone, and for that matter, who knows that he didn't have a hand in during at least part of his physical absence?

AAPL and LAZ are publicly-traded companies, and the story was about transparency regarding health of the CEO. The fact that they are in different industries misses the point altogether. When you are dealing with a publicly-traded company, the health of a CEO is definitely the business of the shareholders, as is the succession plan to replace him or her. Sooner or later it will come out, and it is just a matter of how and when it will be disclosed. Berkshire Hathaway (BRKA) might face this in the near future with Warren Buffett advancing in age, and it will be interesting to see how it plays out.
post #15 of 79
Sometimes I think the only thing the AppleInsider folk ever worry about is the price of their precious stock.

I agree with 90pc of the above commentsthis is just some random banker, not a pioneer and staple figure of the technology business, no comparison.
post #16 of 79
I too think the comparison of Jobs' and Wasserstein's cases is not exactly of the apples to apples variety.

Wasserstein's illness was a lot more straightforward to diagnose and treat than Jobs'. There is simply no comparison.

With a treatment path that had as many twists and turns as Jobs' did, including months of inconclusive tests to try to figure out why he couldn't put on weight, what exactly should Apple have disclosed, and how much would all the conflicting information have affected the price of AAPL? I wish Apple and Jobs could have been more forthcoming, but I understand fully why they weren't: better to keep your mouth shut until you have a definitive medical answer upon which you can make a public statement.
post #17 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by Silencio View Post

I too think the comparison of Jobs' and Wasserstein's cases is not exactly of the apples to apples variety.

Wasserstein's illness was a lot more straightforward to diagnose and treat than Jobs'. There is simply no comparison.

With a treatment path that had as many twists and turns as Jobs' did, including months of inconclusive tests to try to figure out why he couldn't put on weight, what exactly should Apple have disclosed, and how much would all the conflicting information have affected the price of AAPL? I wish Apple and Jobs could have been more forthcoming, but I understand fully why they weren't: better to keep your mouth shut until you have a definitive medical answer upon which you can make a public statement.

Yeah!!!!.....What he said!!!
post #18 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by souliisoul View Post

Wall Street should know, sorry mate, but they do not and it was evident at the time, with the stock price movement. Steve Jobs health was shareholders issue and WE had a right to know, since his health does affect the company performance.
Until a clear heir apparent is named and the secrecy is dropped, shareholders will hold Steve accountable for such behavior.

This has nothing to do with Steve being human, as WSJ said more about "Openness can be healthy."

Are you saying Apple's stock wouldn't have tanked if Apple came out and said "Steve Jobs is taking leave of the company because he's very ill and needs a liver transplant"? Really?

Wall Street would not have just sat back - there would have been a massive sell-off of Apple shares. (I'm not saying Apple's secrecy was the best way to go, but there are some privacy issues involved, and I don't see Apple as having done anything legally wrong).

As far as whats-his-name at Lazard, you can't compare the two situations.
post #19 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

"The computer makers shares see-sawed when investors worried that the company was being less than forthcoming about the health of CEO Steve Jobs," the report said."

So AAPL would be "more stable" stable if Jobs/Apple were open about what happened or if he went into the hospital next week for even a checkup?
I think we would see the stock price drop like a rock.
post #20 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by souliisoul View Post

Actually Yes,Bruce Wasserstein is one of ICONs in investment industry and when he opens his mouth a look of people listen very carefully. Do a little research on this guy.

Exactly my point. "Do a little research on this guy."? THAT was my point, you don't need to do any research for Steve Jobs to be a familiar name. Plus you sound like you have anger issues... easy.... why are people so prone to getting irate when blogging. Something about being more anonymous behind a screen name sure can make people have an unhealthy edge. \
post #21 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by elroth View Post

Are you saying Apple's stock wouldn't have tanked if Apple came out and said "Steve Jobs is taking leave of the company because he's very ill and needs a liver transplant"? Really?

Wall Street would not have just sat back - there would have been a massive sell-off of Apple shares. (I'm not saying Apple's secrecy was the best way to go, but there are some privacy issues involved, and I don't see Apple as having done anything legally wrong).

As far as whats-his-name at Lazard, you can't compare the two situations.

No, the way to handle it is to tell your shareholders some information without the 'cloak and dagger' scenario.

As for your last statement, can you provide some evidence not to compare the two situations.
post #22 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by gmo View Post

Exactly my point. "Do a little research on this guy."? THAT was my point, you don't need to do any research for Steve Jobs to be a familiar name. Plus you sound like you have anger issues... easy.... why are people so prone to getting irate when blogging. Something about being more anonymous behind a screen name sure can make people have an unhealthy edge. \

who is angry, I was emphasizing his known image in the business world. You the one who is getting emotional and assuming whatever in your head, not my fault you are sensitive.

Stated many times in this forum, nothing to get emotional about, when providing opinions and having discussions.

Britney Spears is a familiar name is she more influential than Bruce?
post #23 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by ipodrulz View Post

...

EDIT: I take back what I said... whoever said "do your research" was right. I should've done my research oops.

Well, that's refreshing! Good for you!
Blindness is a condition as well as a state of mind.

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Blindness is a condition as well as a state of mind.

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post #24 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by souliisoul View Post

Wall Street should know, sorry mate, but they do not and it was evident at the time, with the stock price movement.

To this I say B.S.!!

First off; a persons health is a private matter and should only be addressed publically with their consent. Second; Apples stock slipped with everybody elses stock due to the banking melt down. Third; Apples performance did not slip at all with the so called economic reccesion. In fact Apple has been out doing itself through a tough down turn and with a sick CEO so really you have no basis for your point of view.
Quote:
Steve Jobs health was shareholders issue and WE had a right to know, since his health does affect the company performance.

You are so wrong here, he has the same rights as anybody else to private and secure health care. In any event you can't be much of an investor if you can't see that Apple has literally sailed through the economic downturn with a CEO out of commission. The state of Steves health didn't impact the company one bit. I think you like making moutains out of mole hills.
Quote:
Until a clear heir apparent is named and the secrecy is dropped, shareholders will hold Steve accountable for such behavior.

Now we are on some sort of power trip, time to grow up!!!

The only thing shareholders will be concerned with is profits.
Quote:

This has nothing to do with Steve being human, as WSJ said more about "Openness can be healthy."

In todays world who really gives a damn about what Wall Street or the WSJ says? It is very apparent these guys are motivated by self interests and are hardly concerned about the companies the buy and sell.

It isn't like I don't have personal experience here. The company i worked for was public for a very long time before going private. Such a move brings along a massive change in the mind set of management. They actually focus on the long term.

Frankly I could see Apple benefitting by going private right now. It would remove the influence of greedy investor and set Apple up to work for the long term. Over the last few years the mentality of the Wall Street investor has damaged more companies than it has helped.


Dave
post #25 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post

To this I say B.S.!!

First off; a persons health is a private matter and should only be addressed publically with their consent. Second; Apples stock slipped with everybody elses stock due to the banking melt down. Third; Apples performance did not slip at all with the so called economic reccesion. In fact Apple has been out doing itself through a tough down turn and with a sick CEO so really you have no basis for your point of view.

You are so wrong here, he has the same rights as anybody else to private and secure health care. In any event you can't be much of an investor if you can't see that Apple has literally sailed through the economic downturn with a CEO out of commission. The state of Steves health didn't impact the company one bit. I think you like making moutains out of mole hills.

Now we are on some sort of power trip, time to grow up!!!

The only thing shareholders will be concerned with is profits.


In todays world who really gives a damn about what Wall Street or the WSJ says? It is very apparent these guys are motivated by self interests and are hardly concerned about the companies the buy and sell.

It isn't like I don't have personal experience here. The company i worked for was public for a very long time before going private. Such a move brings along a massive change in the mind set of management. They actually focus on the long term.

Frankly I could see Apple benefitting by going private right now. It would remove the influence of greedy investor and set Apple up to work for the long term. Over the last few years the mentality of the Wall Street investor has damaged more companies than it has helped.


Dave

You can give your opinions and and I can disagree, thats the nature of this discussion. I do not count myself as great investor, but I purchased Apple shares in 1999 (commented on this numerous times in this forum) and so I am sitting on a mint for my retirement., so good investor maybe or just lucky.

Please take time to read all my comments, since someone did mention If I wanted him to tell us his complete health issue and I said no, just did not like 'cloak and dagger' scenario.

You assume, I do not have personal experience as well, since I have been involved in 2 start-up companies moving from private to public and seem the issues that are involved at senior management level.

This comment You are so wrong here, he has the same rights as anybody else to private and secure health care. I said health, nothing about the specifics of his health, again no 'cloak and dagger' behavior by the company board.

As for private ownership by who and at what price, it will cost Apple. Private Equity firm providing the funds to take Apple private or Steve/management team undertaking a buyout.

I do not know if I am right or wrong, just providing my opinion in non-emotional way on the discussion.
post #26 of 79
You have to weigh short term fluctuations against long term return. Giving CEOs their privacy might result in short term fluctuations, but it also results in higher long term returns, because you attract a higher quality of person to the role. "Sensitive genius" types typically don't want to be a public spectacle.
post #27 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by ascii View Post

You have to weigh short term fluctuations against long term return. Giving CEOs their privacy might result in short term fluctuations, but it also results in higher long term returns, because you attract a higher quality of person to the role. "Sensitive genius" types typically don't want to be a public spectacle.

Thats true statement for SJ, but I do credit him with turning Apple around at a time, when senior management was more reactive, then proactive in their style. Making me happy (or hope happy) in my retirement (good distance off yet).
post #28 of 79
Apple Corporate Communications is run by a bunch of liars.

If you have ever worked in Silicon Valley, you have met these types before. "Steve has a virus." "Steve is taking antibiotics." (which have no affect on viruses...)

Outright lying.
post #29 of 79
Yeah, right, as if stock prices were linked in any way with something approaching reality.

Messenger enters bearing bad news: stock drops.
Messenger enters bearing good news: stock drops.
Messenger enters bearing indifferent news: stock drops.
Messenger enters bearing bad news which he thinks is good news: stock drops.
post #30 of 79
I think its not fair to say Apple should of been more open because this particular example was good for the stock price. Jobs may for example, be considered more critical to apple than this Wasser-guy to the other company (forgive, I am too lazy to look up the other name as I am about to collapse after being up for 22 hours straight after an irregular and lacking nights sleep). Bye. *THUD*
post #31 of 79
I really can't understand why Apple users would side with 'His Majesty SJ". It is apparent that he has absolutely no concern for stockholders or people who buy his products. He doesn't pay dividends to stockholders; while he's counting the billions he gets from us, he fills his products with sub par and sometimes obsolete parts. He charges obscene prices for computers that aren't 'up to snuff'. He creates havoc for Apple users who aren't able to make decisions because of SJ's insane secrecy policies.

The only thing he has going for him is a good OS which he wields as a club over our heads.

While I wish him well health-wise, I'd like to see him leave his high and mighty post at Apple. It's going to happen someday anyway. Possibly his heirs will make decisions that will give the 'faithful' what they need at a reasonable price. If they don't, I think users will vote with their wallets.

Anyway, I'm fed up with His Majesty's high handedness. When he's out of his place in the clouds (no pun), I'll say, "Good riddance." Please don't tell me that Apple will fold without him. I think Apple is on it's feet, now. If it does fold when he leaves, then that would have happened sooner or later, anyway. He can't rule forever.

Flame me; tell me I'm wrong; however, if you do so, tell me why we should revere a megalomaniac like SJ.
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post #32 of 79
Regardless it is a personal decision. What one decides right wrong or indifferent is a deeply personal matter. There is no question whatever the decision is it will affect others. So shall many other events in life. If this information effects the way one handles one's finances those are the facts and they will not change. In the words of a leader of the past Quote "Get to heck out of the kitchen if you do not like the heat " End quote.

That may be cold and unfeeling but " grow-up "
post #33 of 79
The two situations are not at all comprable. What would Apple's press release have
said? Job' health is not stable and his condition continues
to deteriorate until and if he can get an organ transplant.

So you think the stock would have dropped only one percent?
post #34 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by souliisoul View Post

Actually Yes,Bruce Wasserstein is one of ICONs in investment industry and when he opens his mouth a look of people listen very carefully. Do a little research on this guy.

With all due respect to your knowledge of this guy, I still agree that it is Apples and Oranges in terms of global recognition of Bruce and Steve.
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post #35 of 79
All the comparisons about SJ compared to the Lazard guy are totally irrelevant.

As customers and enthusiasts we like Steve's work, but the law doesn't distinguish between them and neither should professional investors and the regulators at the SEC.

If you take the public's money to help fund your company you are bound to follow the rules. In short, timely disclosure is required where a matter might be material to shareholders.

Apple, have been a bit too cute with this and shareholders are right to beat the stock around if Apple PR tell them nothing.

I'd accept the earlier point that creative geniuses don't like too much scrutiny, and the micro-managed PR process of Apple news reflects the company's preference for firmly controlling the opportunities for real discussion.

If you don't want scrutiny SJ then the appropriate thing to do is to take the company private.
post #36 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by sequitur View Post


Flame me; tell me I'm wrong; however, if you do so, tell me why we should revere a megalomaniac like SJ.

mmmm ... let me think ... how about ... there would be no Apple but for SJ? But seriously, no need to be so rude about the guy. No one is making you use Apple equipment nor read about Apple's founder and saviour.
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post #37 of 79
Jobs is known immediately worldwide in business and consumers markets.
Bruce is someone that people have to "research" to become familiar with.

each event has happened in very different economic circumstances. stock markets in general were wildly up and down a few months ago, not just Apples because jobs was sick.

2 different humans, with their own personalities/values. One wants privacy on an illness, the other doesnt mind divulging info. And please dont pick on this point saying he has a duty to shareholders. Fulfilling a duty to shareholders does not have a handbook that says you need to tell them about your personal trials. Respect the fact he is still human. If you were in the same boat, you might not act so 'perfectly'

and all the other points people have pointed out above about industries etc.

Bottom line. What works for one might not work for the other. Thats kinda what we see everyday in live isnt it? Why does it still surprise people?
post #38 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by sequitur View Post

Possibly his heirs will make decisions that will give the 'faithful' what they need at a reasonable price. If they don't, I think users will vote with their wallets.

I think people have been voting with their wallets.
post #39 of 79
Ask a thousand people which is a worse condition, (a) an irregular heart beat, or (b) wasting away for months for all the world to see. People -- stockholders, analysts, fanboys, whoever -- have enough innate sense of the difference in prognosis.

"Irregular heart beat" is not heart attack, and frankly even if it were, if you made it to the hospital, you're probably going to be ok. "Irregular heartbeat" can mean a lot of different things, but as a cardiologist, when my patients say "my doctor told me I have an irregular heartbeat" they are talking about atrial fibrillation, a very common arrhythmia that increases the risk of stroke (clots form in the heart and can travel to distant tissues), but the stroke rate can be roughly halved with clot-reducing medicines, and a lot of people have this condition and you don't even know it. If patients don't mean atrial fibrillation when they say "irregular heartbeat," they usually mean something quite benign like an extra heartbeat here and there.

On the other hand, when people see a man waste away over months, everyone -- every physician -- thinks cancer first, and we're not talking the nice ones or the baddies detected early. Usually if you're losing weight like that, the horse is already out of the barn. And while doctors know that a neuroendocrine tumor of the pancreas is NOT the same thing as the much-dreaded adenocarcinoma (which accounts for most pancreatic cancer and has a 5-year survival rate of only 1%), do most stockholders? Most analysts? The media?

As silly as it sounds, if you could randomize billionaire cult-figure CEOs ALL WITH THE SAME DISEASE to strategy of "openness" versus "Jobsian secrecy," we might have something to talk about.

To me, this has more to do with the market's perceptions of cancer versus "irregular heartbeat," and I happen to agree with the market on this one.

I'd take "irregular heartbeat" any day, even with the risk of stroke, if the alternative is cancer (not otherwise specified) with a 50-# weight loss.

Dr. Ben
post #40 of 79
I am an Apple investor. I have been since the stock price was back at 14 a share. I also have no problem with the way Apple handled Jobs illness. As a stockholder I am not entitled to know every little detail of Jobs life. That is why there is a Board of Directors at Apple. Jobs is required to report to the B.O.D. any pertinent information. It is required to make sure Apple is being run well. The B.O.D. told me when Jobs wouldn't running the ship and that it was for health reasons. I am not entitled to know anything else.

Further, I agree comparing the two companies is ridiculous. As somebody else elegantly pointed out: Bob who?



Quote:
Originally Posted by souliisoul View Post

Totally disagree, the point was that Apple caused bigger drama with Steve illness, then what was required and this could have been handled much better. As shareholder, I was dismayed at THE lack of information and secrecy behind his illness.

Btw:Lazard is BIG investment firm that handles a LOT of money for private investors and Bruce Wasserstein (he is one of the LEADER in investment industry http://www.businessweek.com/magazine...6/b4048007.htm) is main driver of the investment decisions. By telling the investors of his illness and that it maybe serious, but he is stable, it stops panic and people pulling their funds from the firm.

Steve has to be more upfront with his illness, especially since he is driving force of Apple and it is BUSINESS!

Apple need to have heir-apprant in wings that can take over, if anything happens to Steve. That Cook guy did very well, but not sure if he has the same innovation qualities as Steve.


P.S. Steve will know Bruce Wasserstein very well and vice versa, they both Billionaires (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruce_Wasserstein) and very succcessful business men!
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