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WSJ: Apple's Chamber departure not in shareholders' interests - Page 4

post #121 of 196
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

In the aggregate, I would actually not call them 'conservative' except for their editorial pages. The rest of WSJ is surprisingly middle-of-the-road. I agree that the articles are generally better than the editorials and the op-ed (but that might also be a function of my political predilections, which gravitate towards the center.)

I suppose we can disagree on that. I find that the coverage tends towards more conservative stories. more about how the CEO is going to solve some problem, rather than how the problem should be resolved, as other business journals often would cover it. They take the perspective of the management more than being strictly neutral. But the information isn't usually distorted too much. Reporters are human.

I find it easy to filter out, because it's not "in your face" the way the editorials tend to be.
post #122 of 196
Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post

Some think it is decreasing but even that hasn't been proven. Let's face it ever spring Snow melts, this may surprise you if you are a city boy used to seeing Snow trucked away by I can tell Snow does melt and so does ice.

Now you may try to say it is the warming air that is melting the Snow. To which I say yes the air warms up every spring and melts the Snow. Some years are just more agressive than others.

Besides all of that you have long term cycles in the Pacific Ocean that can have a massive impact on ice at the north pole. As you may suspect water will have a greater impact on that ice cap than air.

Another thing to realize is this isn't the first time in history, we are talking recent history here that there has been a melt off of ice in the North. So what evidence is there that this melt off is special in some way. The short and sweet is there is none, all we got is several sets of scientist saying the ice has melted. It may have were they measured but at least one group has admitted that their instruments had calibration errors that invalidated their original findings. Of course this has been surpressed by the lunatic fringe.

In any event let's say the ice is actually thinner than expected, the problem is how do you link that to manmade global warming. That is how do we factor in manmade causes along with everything else that is happening. That is known long term environmental cycles, volcanic activity, output from the sun and other factors. The reality is man is a puny factor when you consider these other factors.

In any event show me the mechanism where by mans activities have caused the ice to melt. It simply isn't good enough to say so, nor has there been a model put forth that clearly links CO2 to a planetary temperature increase. Yes I know there are lots of computer models that the developers think they have nailed down but absolutely none of them have been proven correct.

Sadly you will like many here, dismiss my point of view as a nut case from the extreme right. That is not the case at all, I'm not however gullible nor easily persuaded to adopt ideas that don't stack up. Nor do I have time for scientist that come off as crack pots. So if you don't like my point of view talk to an astronomer or a geologist who each have differing points of view on the subject.

You will eventually see that very well educated people don't always agree on this subject. In the case of Astronomers and Geologist they take a much longer view of events on and off the planet. The fact is there are a huge number of factors involved in the earths temperature, until there is a way to combine all of those into a computation we will not know what is going on.

The one really obvious problem with the global warming predictions is that they make the assumption that the sun has no impact on temperatures. This summer should make it glaringly obvious that a quite sun cools off the earth real fast, yet the suns impact is a constant with repect to the global warming crowd. Frankly it would be sad to here these people in normal scientific discourse but unfortunately they are very skilled at manipulating public opinion via thinly vieled threats to ones future. Sadly the science part of the debate died a long time ago, now it is all about threats and scare techniques to move a political agenda.


Dave

Actually, you're wrong. You just don't read scientific journals.
post #123 of 196
Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post

Try hitting that head a few times more, maybe it will free you from the RDF around the global warming movement. The other option is to come up North where it is cold and ask a few people about global warming.

After which I would suggest that you look deeper into Al Gore interest in global warming and how he is setting himself up to profit from your tax dollars. You can however have an impact here by talking to your congressman or woman and making sure this country doesn't go down this road blindly. These people need to know that you expect decisions based on sound science and not a flock of idiots scaring people into a life of servitude, poverty and social regression.

You see even if global warming is proven to be correct, there are positive ways to deal with it. That is moving forward with technology, the involvement of industry openly and actively avoiding social regression.

In any event please continue to bang your head until you get it. You are being manipulated to serve someone else agenda. An agenda that has nothing to do with the environment other than the gloss put on it to get the public to lap it up.


Dave

While I like a lot of what you have to say here usually, you are way off on this one.
post #124 of 196
Quote:
Originally Posted by newbee View Post

Nothing wrong with having a passion about what we believe in, unless of course, our passion is so strong that it blocks out all other points of view. That is something that we all have to guard against. I keep reminding my kids to keep "walking around the elephant". ...

Now you know why I enjoy these boards so much. They expose me to a lot of different information, some of which I can use, and some of which I can't. But I must never stop "walking around the elephant". Good Luck, I'm out.

LOL, you wrote this and called my post the dumbest. As you have your kids walk around the elephant, remind them that there are other animals in the world and to look around, they might learn about them too.

BTW, it is unseasonably cool here lately, must be global cooling.
Canadians

Well, it's good you can grow your own Hemp (kind of). \
Lots of Omega 3, Omega 6, and other good nutrients in that stuff.
post #125 of 196
Regardless of whom or what is at fault we need to stop the affects of unpatterned global weather change so we may keep our communial homeostasis as current as possible.
Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
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Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
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post #126 of 196
Quote:
Originally Posted by aga View Post

LOL, you wrote this and called my post the dumbest. As you have your kids walk around the elephant, remind them that there are other animals in the world and to look around, they might learn about them too.

BTW, it is unseasonably cool here lately, must be global cooling.
Canadians

Well, it's good you can grow your own Hemp (kind of). \
Lots of Omega 3, Omega 6, and other good nutrients in that stuff.

You can buy hemp oil in the supermarket here in NYC.
post #127 of 196
Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post

If you are upset over the banking issue you really should be upset with Al Gore and the global warming crowd, they are just different facets of the same problem.

Dave

Wow! I can now appreciate why you have the name of Wizard69. It took a lot of "magic" to draw a connection between Al Gore, the banking industry and global warming. Here, let's see what you can do with these three: ice cream, the cha cha and mac minis.
Apple, bigger than Google, ..... bigger than Microsoft,   The universe is unfolding as it should. Thanks, Apple.
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Apple, bigger than Google, ..... bigger than Microsoft,   The universe is unfolding as it should. Thanks, Apple.
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post #128 of 196
Quote:
Originally Posted by danvid36 View Post

I met many a Canadian when I was still in Cuba; pretty cool people in general. I have lived in the U.S. for over 15 years now so I guess I become pretty mad when I see certain groups pushing agendas that are designed to enslave us and take away our freedoms since I have that previous experience in my life and they seem pretty transparent to me.

I would become mad too when I heard that somebody was taking advantage of their newly found freedom to disrespect product license agreements.

Like your X7DAL-E Supermicro mobo,Dual QC 3.0 Ghz Xeons, 12 Gb RAM, 4 Raptor drives + 500 Gb TM drive, wireless-n EW-7728ln card, DVR-212D burner, M-Audio 7.1 sound card, Antec Titan 650 case running Leopard 10.6 Retail using Chameleon-DFE."
post #129 of 196
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

You don't need to hold the majority view to have the biggest ratings on a news cable channel.

What you need is rabid people who tune it in because it reinforces their own extreme views.

And that's enough extreme politics here.

exactly!
post #130 of 196
Quote:
Originally Posted by danvid36 View Post

How do you explain the fact that the North Pole has ben completely ice free in the past?How do you explain the fact that the South Pole is actually gaining ice mass and the North Pole has gained two-year ice mass as well?

The South pole is gaining ice mass because it is warmer. In extremely cold temperatures the air can not hold moisture so it does not snow as much. As it warms the air becomes moister and it snows more so more ice mass.

As for the north pole, there have been times when it has been ice free, usually when the earth has been a lot warmer. Something we are trying to avoid causing ourselves.

------------------

All you man made global warming doubters; are you 100% sure there is no global warming and it is not man made? 100% sure that all the climatologists are wrong?

Because if you are only 98% sure, if there is even a very small risk that we might be causing global warming it's too great a risk to not do anything. We wear seat belts don't we? There is a small chance we might get in a car accident but the consequenses of not wearing a seat belt is great. Greater caution is warranted when the consequences are high.

Besides, energy efficiency saves money in the long run, keeps our money in our own country and is more comfortable. Do you really want to tie your economic future to the dictators in the Middle East?

I built a super insulated house that uses a ground-source heat pump for heating and cooling. It cost a little more but it will pay for itself in about 5 years. My energy bills are 70% less than other NEW houses, 300% less than the last old house I lived in. Also, in the winter other people turn their heat way down at night. Ours is 70 degrees day and night.

IF I am saving $1500/year on energy costs, over 30 years that's $45,000 saved at todays prices. Plus I have a greater resale value.

To argue against measures combating fossil fuel use is just dumb. It's dumb for long term economic reasons, comfort reasons and security reasons.
post #131 of 196
Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox View Post

For those of you for whom this is the case, doesn't the very low quality of the aggregate case being made for your side kind of make you wonder, a little? When you post some kind of "Ha! I guess you liberals didn't think of THIS!", only to have someone immediately post a link that shows that what you thought was the case is simply untrue, or of course has been taken into account when the science is being done, or is based on some kind of basic misunderstanding of how physics, science, peer review or just simple logic works, and that happens over and over again, don't you start to maybe suspect that you have been misled?

Unfortunately, they have been so programmed to distrust science, government and essentially rationality itself that, no, they don't ask themselves anything at all, they just nod their heads in unison and chant "ditto". So, they repeat things like this,

Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post

Al Gore just puts a public face on the decline of government and a sense of duty people once had. [...] If you are upset over the banking issue you really should be upset with Al Gore and the global warming crowd, they are just different facets of the same

which boggles the mind of anyone who still has a grip on reality. (I won't bother to explain why because if you've been programmed you wouldn't accept it and if you haven't there's no need to explain.)

So, basically, there's no point in trying to reason with them because they are beyond reason and have such an utterly distorted and irrational world view that rational argument cannot reach them.
post #132 of 196
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

So you agree that his review of Windows 7 is a crock, and that it isn't nearly as good as he thinks it is?

Not at all, but I bet you do. I reserve judgement until I actually see it and read more reviews especially from the other Apple fanboy, NY Times' David Pogue. But so far Mossberg has presented a very persuasive, well documented case for liking it, having used it for 9 months.
post #133 of 196
Quote:
Originally Posted by OC4Theo View Post

What is important is not the health of business. The health of the earth and the health of the people is what is important. You cannot live in a dirty world where people are dying because of business profit.

Next, they will argue that people will lose their jobs. Sure, I will rather be jobless than sick.

This is just Murdoch continuing to interfere in order to make profit. The Chamber of Commerce is corrupt. They will sell their mothers to make profit.

Screw WSJ!

Cancel you WSJ subscription and go back to subscribing to "Mother Earth News".... will help you control you your anger, reduce your BP and help you lead a calmer and longer life. Also check out Dr. Weil's web site for dealing with the stress of media and news. \
post #134 of 196
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

You can buy hemp oil in the supermarket here in NYC.

Yes, I know. You can buy hemp milk where I live in the grocery stores along with hemp seeds in cereal. What you can not do is grow your own hemp legally, according to the feds (generalized).

If you look at the laws on this, the reasons given for passing them, and those that benefitted there passing, you could draw some different conclusions as to why the laws were passed.
post #135 of 196
Quote:
Originally Posted by teckstud View Post

Not at all, but I bet you do. I reserve judgement until I actually see it and read more reviews especially from the other Apple fanboy, NY Times' David Pogue. But so far Mossberg has presented a very persuasive, well documented case for liking it, having used it for 9 months.

Yeah, I am waiting to test it out too, but have not had the need. Will reserve full judgement till then too. David Pogue and others seem to be paid corporate spokespersons.

If I were a betting man, I'd bet that Windows 7 is what they say it is and Apple will drop in Market Share Percentages.

Big question I have not looked at yet, will it work better with Mac and Unix platforms?
- RDC rules (beats Apple's free screen sharing / remote access software hands down)
- SMB seems to be a standard for NAS shares. No problems there
- SMB sharing between Macs and Windows machines is a pain in the . Too many unnecessary steps to get things set up. Hopefully 10.6.x and Windows 7.x will make life easier. Not betting on that one .
post #136 of 196
Quote:
Originally Posted by wwwork View Post

The South pole is gaining ice mass because it is warmer. In extremely cold temperatures the air can not hold moisture so it does not snow as much. As it warms the air becomes moister and it snows more so more ice mass.

As for the north pole, there have been times when it has been ice free, usually when the earth has been a lot warmer. Something we are trying to avoid causing ourselves.

------------------

All you man made global warming doubters; are you 100% sure there is no global warming and it is not man made? 100% sure that all the climatologists are wrong?

Because if you are only 98% sure, if there is even a very small risk that we might be causing global warming it's too great a risk to not do anything. We wear seat belts don't we? There is a small chance we might get in a car accident but the consequenses of not wearing a seat belt is great. Greater caution is warranted when the consequences are high.

Besides, energy efficiency saves money in the long run, keeps our money in our own country and is more comfortable. Do you really want to tie your economic future to the dictators in the Middle East?

I built a super insulated house that uses a ground-source heat pump for heating and cooling. It cost a little more but it will pay for itself in about 5 years. My energy bills are 70% less than other NEW houses, 300% less than the last old house I lived in. Also, in the winter other people turn their heat way down at night. Ours is 70 degrees day and night.

IF I am saving $1500/year on energy costs, over 30 years that's $45,000 saved at todays prices. Plus I have a greater resale value.

To argue against measures combating fossil fuel use is just dumb. It's dumb for long term economic reasons, comfort reasons and security reasons.


---------------------------
To argue against measures combating fossil fuel use is just dumb.


Tell me which organic based fuels, fossil or not, do not produce oxides of carbon (which some scientists have claimed links and a precursor to AGW). Ethanol, biodiesel, wood, animal fat (makes synthetic fuels), grass(biomass)? Since the wonks in the ether have decided CO2 is a pollutant (as CO is). Even the process of rotting wood and decaying grass (think of it as slow burning) create these "Pollutants" and possibly lead to AGW.

The real solution is to move to alternatives such as nuclear, hydro, solar, wind, geothermal, tidal, temp differential, et. al.. Is not about dumb people combating fossil fuel use. It is about being proactive in adopting measures that reduce pollution and minimizing the use of ORGANIC BASED FUELS what ever the source (that is all those compounds which have all those C's, O's, H's and more in their structures)

Your comment pointed out what you have done to be energy efficient... great. How can that be applied so a family who earns only $45,000 per year in San Francisco? Vancouver, Seattle, Boston....... Calling someone who uses inexpensive NatGas to warm their home in Cheyene dumb because they want to use and advocate the cheapest way to survive is counter productive. Price of energy alternatives, especially cleaner NatGas, determine use of fossil fuels these days... not rants. I hear very little from the "conservation" side of the energy equation. I do not hear Obama telling anyone to turn down the thermostat and wear a sweater. People waste energy on a grand scale... Obviously you do not. Kudos. and I hope you can get your story published in other than "Mother Earth News"
post #137 of 196
Quote:
Originally Posted by FormerARSgm View Post

You realize you sound very uneducated when you say things like that. If your spew crap like that, pleae provide some sort of proof to back up your outrageous claim.

I'm no CoC fan. I believe they are really only real agenda is to keep dues coming in to support their employees. Any chamber I've ever joined has proven to be able to help grow my business about 1% (give or take a percent).

But please, spare us the left wing agenda which currently seems to be... blame everything on the RNC. It's weak. And desperate.

I used to feel the same way. Back in 1994 I heard all that "left wing propaganda" about where the RNC wanted to take the nation. Tax cuts for the wealthy. Starve the Beast. Maybe an opportunistic war in the middle east. Radical deregulation of financial markets and energy trading.

I didn't believe any of it. Then.

If we stick to what we can actually point to in the real world, climate change denial has become rather "fringe" position. "Fringe" as in not-supported-by-the-facts. The Chamber's support of that position is consistent with a fairly radical attitude that moderate conservatives have mostly abandoned.

I'm not in favor of radicalizing the conversation either. But we can't simply write-off "left-wing" hyperbole any more. Far too much of it has proven to be frighteningly accurate.

fdp3
post #138 of 196
Quote:
Originally Posted by floccus View Post

Al Gore stands to profit from investing in "green" technology if the climate bill passes... how is that a bad thing?

Well. It's unclear that it's even true, for starters. Such has been widely flogged in the media, but Gore claims to have been putting all the profit from these investments into a non-profit organization.

http://mediamatters.org/research/200906040051

And the rest of your observation (so what if Gore is profiting) is difficult to argue with. Especially if those arguing with it never raised a peep while the White House was practicing naked corporate cronyism for the last eight years, practically out in the open. Especially since the people attacking Gore for his alleged profiteering have no such objections about the activity of the Health Insurance lobby in the current Reform debates.

IF Gore stands to profit, that's at the very heart of the kind of capitalism we've apparently sanctified in this country. If you are silent when Haliburton and KBR and Blackwater and Aetna and Wellpoint do it, you can't get your knickers in a twist about Al. You really have no choice but to stick to facts, science, probabilities and potential outcomes.

The only reason to attack the messenger here is if the facts, etc, don't win the case for you.

fdp3
post #139 of 196
Quote:
Originally Posted by danvid36 View Post

No, genius. I am just someone who had to live under socialism for 22 years and I know what's going on in this country.

Heh. Don't look now, but the little green men in black helicopters are coming to take away all your automatic weapons.

[signed]

The Genius
Pity the agnostic dyslectic. They spend all their time contemplating the existence of dog.
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Pity the agnostic dyslectic. They spend all their time contemplating the existence of dog.
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post #140 of 196
I don't there is anyone who has had rudimentary physical science couses who does't believe that "CLIMATE CHANGES". It has changes for billions of years. (earth approx 4.5B years old). The discusion should be relegated to AGW. That means "Anthropogenic Global Warming".

What is the temp of the earth supposed to be and remain at? Who determines what is the ideal
temperatue...... the temperature of Paris in 1275 AD, 1787? 1930? 1500BC? How about Great lakes area 12,000 BC, 800AD, 1920AD? How arrogant can you get mankind? Pollution can be controlled. The carbon cylce, which includes animal and plant life forms is far too complex for even the most sophisticated modeling programs to predict let alone control. Want to control Carbon.... control and reverse reproduction of species, including humans, the biggest users of carbon compounds.
post #141 of 196
Quote:
Originally Posted by fdp3 View Post

...

If we stick to what we can actually point to in the real world, climate change denial has become rather "fringe" position. "Fringe" as in not-supported-by-the-facts. The Chamber's support of that position is consistent with a fairly radical attitude that moderate conservatives have mostly abandoned.

...

Last week, over a hundred CEOs of American companies broke with the U.S. Chamber of Commerce to lobby Congress to pass comprehensive climate change and energy policy legislation this year. Participants in a Clean Energy Economy Forum on October 7, at the White House included J. Wayne Leonard, the Chairman and CEO of Entergy Corporation, the utility giant based in New Orleans, Louisiana. Speaking at the White House event, Leonard called for action on climate change and clean energy not just for economic reasons but starkly moral ones (full transcript here):

Quote:
We are virtually certain that climate change is occurring, and occurring because of mans activities. Were virtually certain the probability distribution curve is all bad. Theres no good things thats going to come of this. But whats uncertain is exactly which one of those things are going to occur and in what time frame. In the probability distribution curve is about a 50% probability that about half of all species will become extinct or be subject to extinction over this period of time. What we will never know on an ex ante basis is whether or not man be one of those casualties or not.

We condemn Wall Street for taking risks with our economy risks that all of you are trying very hard to reverse but at the same time were taking exactly the same kind of risks, with no upside whatsoever, with regard to our climate, failing to practice even the basic risk management techniques in terms of climate change reduction.
Blindness is a condition as well as a state of mind.

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Blindness is a condition as well as a state of mind.

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post #142 of 196
Quote:
Originally Posted by weisbear View Post


---------------------------
To argue against measures combating fossil fuel use is just dumb.


Tell me which organic based fuels, fossil or not, do not produce oxides of carbon (which some scientists have claimed links and a precursor to AGW). Ethanol, biodiesel, wood, animal fat (makes synthetic fuels), grass(biomass)? Since the wonks in the ether have decided CO2 is a pollutant (as CO is). Even the process of rotting wood and decaying grass (think of it as slow burning) create these "Pollutants" and possibly lead to AGW.

The real solution is to move to alternatives such as nuclear, hydro, solar, wind, geothermal, tidal, temp differential, et. al.. Is not about dumb people combating fossil fuel use. It is about being proactive in adopting measures that reduce pollution and minimizing the use of ORGANIC BASED FUELS what ever the source (that is all those compounds which have all those C's, O's, H's and more in their structures)

Your comment pointed out what you have done to be energy efficient... great. How can that be applied so a family who earns only $45,000 per year in San Francisco? Vancouver, Seattle, Boston....... Calling someone who uses inexpensive NatGas to warm their home in Cheyene dumb because they want to use and advocate the cheapest way to survive is counter productive. Price of energy alternatives, especially cleaner NatGas, determine use of fossil fuels these days... not rants. I hear very little from the "conservation" side of the energy equation. I do not hear Obama telling anyone to turn down the thermostat and wear a sweater. People waste energy on a grand scale... Obviously you do not. Kudos. and I hope you can get your story published in other than "Mother Earth News"

I did not say people are dumb if they use fossil fuels. I said people that ARGUE AGAINST reductions in fossil fuel use. It's much different. I use fossil fuels every day but I would like to use less.

There is a difference between fossil based organic fuels (oil gas coal) and non-fossil based organic fuels like wood biomass ethanol etc. Fossil fuels release carbon stored millions of years into todays atmosphere resulting in much higher greenhouse gas levels. However, if you burn a log it is not much different than letting it rot in terms of carbon emmisions. The log took in carbon in its growth and rotting or burning releases it.

No way did I call the person in Cheyene dumb for using natural gas. Read what I wrote. And anyone in any income bracket can conserve energy. And the last time Obama DID call for conservation measures by keeping your tires properly inflated they made fun of him.

(and me and my house did make it on national television Didn't you see it?)
post #143 of 196
Quote:
Originally Posted by newbee View Post

Wow! I can now appreciate why you have the name of Wizard69. It took a lot of "magic" to draw a connection between Al Gore, the banking industry and global warming. Here, let's see what you can do with these three: ice cream, the cha cha and mac minis.

Now THAT'S some damn funny stuff!
Pity the agnostic dyslectic. They spend all their time contemplating the existence of dog.
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Pity the agnostic dyslectic. They spend all their time contemplating the existence of dog.
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post #144 of 196
I'm not going to get into the "is global warming man made and can we control it" argument I just have 1 question as to what is wrong with what the CoC wants.

The CoC wants this "The U.S. Chamber of Commerce wants to force the E.P.A. to arrange a climate science hearing before any federal climate regulation is passed."

Usually, if you're 100% certain in all your facts and there's nothing but evidence to support your claim you'd welcome a chance to prove it so I'm really lost as to why the CoC saying they want a hearing is enough to make Apple and Nike abandon ship - isn't this something that happens (or should happen) anytime Congress weighs science as it relates to policies?

I guess what I'm really after is if Curtis and Mel are 100% accurate and 100% sure it's a no brainer what exactly is wrong with having a climate science hearing as it pertains to the EPA where it would, invariably, come out there there is nothing but complete and total proof about AGW?

(Note I'm not asking for links on either side, I'm not asking for people to try to convince me, or others, either way, I'm simply asking what is wrong with the CoC's stance that there be a hearing before policy is made)
post #145 of 196
Quote:
Originally Posted by fdp3 View Post

I used to feel the same way. Back in 1994 I heard all that "left wing propaganda" about where the RNC wanted to take the nation. Tax cuts for the wealthy. Starve the Beast. Maybe an opportunistic war in the middle east. Radical deregulation of financial markets and energy trading.

Nice blame everything bad in the world on the Republicans, I might let you get away with that if it wasn't for your ignorance likely being picked up by others on this forum.
First; the republicans did justcut taxes for the weathy they did so for just about everybody. Now we have the democrats saying they will raise taxes on the wealthy but the reality is everybody will be paying more taxes.
Second; the wars in the middle east would have happened no matter what. It is a result of a defective culture and really bad political processes over there. Without a doubt I can assure you more wars will be fought there in the future. That will be the case until the world gives up on the people in the middle east and effectively and completely wipes them out. The important thing is to take care of that before the arms build up going on over there is complete.
Third; the issues with banking are not the result of one party or a lack of regulation or even one specific piece of legislation. A good deal of the problem came from out side influences and demands being made on the banking industry. Some of these from heavily democratic states. When banks are threatened with discrimination lawsuits because they won't lend to known risk areas, in effect forced to make bad loans and told not to worry about it then why should the management of these banks care. It should come as no surprise here that nobody has ended up in court yet, because frankly the government doesn't want the dirty laundry washed in public.
Fourth; deregulation of the energy sector is exactly what you want if you expect to make alternative energy sources viable. If energy is dirt cheap then investment in other sources goes down. It should be noted that that is exactly what has happened.
Quote:

I didn't believe any of it. Then.

Well you should now as the perception of high energy prices has stimulated a lot of research and investment. I say perception because energy prices aren't really that high though nobody believes me when I tell them gasoline use to cost $10 a gallon.
Quote:

If we stick to what we can actually point to in the real world, climate change denial has become rather "fringe" position.

Why is it a fringe position to say I see nothing to suggest that global warming is real or that it is man made. It is most interesting to note that Russian scientists have come to a different conclusion from their own data. It is also very very interesting to note that the actual data used by the promoters of global warming in the USA have keep that data secret. In any event the claim of global warming flies in the face of what we are experiencing today.
Quote:
"Fringe" as in not-supported-by-the-facts. The Chamber's support of that position is consistent with a fairly radical attitude that moderate conservatives have mostly abandoned.

This is one thing I find disgusting about you and people like you in the global warming camp. The Chamber said nothing that even comes close to what you have attributted to them above. They never said it is not happening they objected to current legislation being proposed. The Chanber is actually more centered than I am.
Quote:
I'm not in favor of radicalizing the conversation either. But we can't simply write-off "left-wing" hyperbole any more. Far too much of it has proven to be frighteningly accurate.

What has been proven? Really I've highlighted this several times already in this thread but apparently nobody can say. Obviously what every IT is hasn't been proven all that well as we would have seen a response other than the uneducated saying you are wrong. If I'm wrong then there should be freely available EVIDENCE that man is the cause of global warming or that it is indeed happening. Yet I've seen nothing to back up these claims.
Quote:

fdp3

Global warming might be happening if every data set in the world indicated that. They don't however so before you can promote that you need to resolve those issues.

Second the data on CO2s influence on temperatures is not at all clear. Especially at the levels we are talking about. Clear this problem up and you might have a few more people on board. Worst there isn't even a solid link to past warm periods on the planet and CO2 levels. Further if Co2 levels have varied over the centuries when man was not around to influence those levels then how do you separate what is manmade from natural causes.

Personally I think most of you could do more good for the environment by going out and getting a shovel and planting a tree or two. It is obvious critical thinking isn't part of the sheeps mentality.


Dave
post #146 of 196
Well other than it would significantly reduce the political power of the left and this is exactly what Apple doesn't want to happen. The last thing Apple wants the public to know or realize is that there position in regards to global warming is built on a house of cards. You think Apple has people mad at them over high computer prices just wait until they cause people to loose good paying jobs or see a tripling or more in taxes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigmc6000 View Post

I'm not going to get into the "is global warming man made and can we control it" argument I just have 1 question as to what is wrong with what the CoC wants.

There is nothing wrong with what the CoC wants unless you of course are so wrapped up in the dogma that you can't emotionally handle that you have had the wool pulled over your eyes.
Quote:

The CoC wants this "The U.S. Chamber of Commerce wants to force the E.P.A. to arrange a climate science hearing before any federal climate regulation is passed."

The problem is global warming is the whip the left is using to promote and sustain there position in the world. To even suggest it is wrong or has been politically forged is to complete undermine any power they have developed with this mantra.
They really don't want you to know that the data isn't there to make the changes they want to make.

As to left or right it should be noted that this fabrication came from the left well out of left field. It has put rational people on the defensive, because it is an unusual way to gather political power. Who would have thought that people would be so gullible and so easy to scare into giving up on everything that is good in life and America for this witches brew of half science?
Quote:

Usually, if you're 100% certain in all your facts and there's nothing but evidence to support your claim you'd welcome a chance to prove it so I'm really lost as to why the CoC saying they want a hearing is enough to make Apple and Nike abandon ship - isn't this something that happens (or should happen) anytime Congress weighs science as it relates to policies?

This is real easy. Some of those so called facts are facts. Some are vigorously disputed. Some are outright lies. Some come from drawing the wrong conclusions from the known facts. Some of the offered facts aren't in fact facts but computer models. Finally; the conclusions arrived at are made by simply dismissing significant factors in the calculations such as how much energy gets transferred from the sun in a given year.
Quote:
I guess what I'm really after is if Curtis and Mel are 100% accurate and 100% sure it's a no brainer what exactly is wrong with having a climate science hearing as it pertains to the EPA where it would, invariably, come out there there is nothing but complete and total proof about AGW?

Exactly!!! If the data is that good then they have nothing to fear and should be happy to present it publically. The problem of course is that it isn't high quality data or even high quality conclusions we are working with here. The left will fight the CoC and others because they don't want to look like fools in public.
Quote:
(Note I'm not asking for links on either side, I'm not asking for people to try to convince me, or others, either way, I'm simply asking what is wrong with the CoC's stance that there but a hearing before policy is made)

I think if you look at the issue not as a science problem but as a political one you will see why the current administration reacts in horror. If your policies are built on a house of cards you don't want people pulling on those cards.


Dave
post #147 of 196
Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post

Nice blame everything bad in the world on the Republicans,


Okay. Pull yourself off that cross.

I haven't blamed everything bad on the Republicans. There is plenty we might criticize the Left for and I'm only too happy to pile on. But it's difficult to have an intelligent discussion of the actual flaws of the left when the right just keeps flogging straw-men and paranoid fantasies. As long as people have to respond to birther nonsense and death panel drivel and, yes, climate change denial, the left gets off scott-free.

Quote:
Well you should now as the perception of high energy prices has stimulated a lot of research and investment. I say perception because energy prices aren't really that high though nobody believes me when I tell them gasoline use to cost $10 a gallon.

From 2003-2008 the price of a barrel of crude rose from $25 to $147. You're suggesting this was a benefit because it stimulated research into alternatives that Republicans don't want to fund?Cancer stimulates research too. Argue for that. And on the Right the ensuing crisis was NOT seen as an opportunity to research our way out of the clutches of the fossil fuel industry and middle east blood-feuds. It was seen as an opportunity to Drill, Baby, Drill!

Quote:
Why is it a fringe position to say I see nothing to suggest that global warming is real or that it is man made.

Because only a handful of discredited experts can be cited to support the notion. They generally use out of date and cherry-picked data to support the position. That's pretty much the definition of 'fringe'. The vast majority of people qualified to publish studies on the topic, some of whom were originally skeptics, have come to another conclusion.

And you cite RUSSIAN scientists? The captive, state-controled academy that gave us Soviet Agricultural theory? You know that Russia has an enormous stake in it's fossil fuels industry? You might as well have cited an Exxon press release.


I'd read and comment on the rest of your points if there is no interest in arguing in good-faith then it's really a waste of time.

fdp3
post #148 of 196
1.
When an energy company supports the new regulations you need to ask yourself why. I suspect one reason is the desire to siphon off a lot of government donated dollars as profit. If a company was really interested in clean energy they would be funding some of the newer nuclear concepts that have been proposed. Building yet another coal burning plant isn't really solving any problem

2.
Fossil fuels suck. However that has little to do with CO2. There are far greater pollution issues associated with fossil fuels that are being ignored here and have a far greater danger to the environment. One of the things that really saddens me about the global warming crowd is that they are taking focus off real environmental issues to promote a political agenda. Ultimately I do hope the evironmental movement holds them responsible fir this huge set back.

3.
Just because a business exists and expresses a different opinion than yours does not make them bad or a threat. In any event people have to realize that it takes awhile for technology to catch up. Lead acid car batteries are a good example. Ideally lead handling would be minimized in society, but a good alternative isn't there yet. So we compensate with recycling and tight controls. That doesn't make lead good or the battery company bad, it is just a way to get by

4.
CO2 as a polutant is kind of a joke. Let's face it we all exhale CO2, so a logical conclusion to draw is that there are to many if us and that some need to die!!! While there are good reasons for some to die, CO2 isn't one of them. What I urge everyone here to do is to be very skeptical about claims surrounding CO2 or else we end up with somebody using it to justify truely radical solutions to a non existant problem.


5.
CO2 levels have varied through out the history of the planet yet plant and animal life has survived. It is obviously not a hazzard to mankind. The stark reality is if CO2levels are changing we might not have any control over the problem anyway.

6.
Our current problems with pollution from fossil fuels is in part created by the same environmental movement that rejected nuclear solutions. The sad part here is that we could have been much farther ahead with nuclear power if research wasn't halted for no good reason. Notably the same techniques of fear and scaring of the common folks are being used again. Do we really want to make the same basic mistake again in less than fifty years time?

7.
With a few dollars a year thrown at research into clean nuclear sources we could be set for power production for centuries. All the so called green sources won't last but a few years as demand outstrips reliable production capacity. Like it or not the economy has to keep growing if we are to create a better future for our children that requires power.

8.
More taxes suck! The last thing I need from the government is higher taxes which makes it even harder for me to do the things I want to do that are environmentally sound. A good portion of the todos are focused on energy usage of my house. Simply put taxes don't help at all. It's not just income taxes either, if energy efficiency where really important for the country sales tax on insulation wouldn't exist.

9.
If global warming is so well studied why is it so damn cold this year and why didn't the clowns predicting global warming announce it coming. It might have a lot to do with the sun, with that factored out of their equations they would look kinda silly discussing it wouldn't they.



Dave
post #149 of 196
Quote:
Originally Posted by teckstud View Post

Not at all, but I bet you do. I reserve judgement until I actually see it and read more reviews especially from the other Apple fanboy, NY Times' David Pogue. But so far Mossberg has presented a very persuasive, well documented case for liking it, having used it for 9 months.

Just like he did with Vista.
post #150 of 196
Quote:
Originally Posted by aga View Post

Yes, I know. You can buy hemp milk where I live in the grocery stores along with hemp seeds in cereal. What you can not do is grow your own hemp legally, according to the feds (generalized).

If you look at the laws on this, the reasons given for passing them, and those that benefitted there passing, you could draw some different conclusions as to why the laws were passed.

I do understand it. I've been following the movement for years.
post #151 of 196
Quote:
Originally Posted by wwwork View Post

I did not say people are dumb if they use fossil fuels. I said people that ARGUE AGAINST reductions in fossil fuel use. It's much different. I use fossil fuels every day but I would like to use less.

There is a difference between fossil based organic fuels (oil gas coal) and non-fossil based organic fuels like wood biomass ethanol etc. Fossil fuels release carbon stored millions of years into todays atmosphere resulting in much higher greenhouse gas levels. However, if you burn a log it is not much different than letting it rot in terms of carbon emmisions. The log took in carbon in its growth and rotting or burning releases it.

No way did I call the person in Cheyene dumb for using natural gas. Read what I wrote. And anyone in any income bracket can conserve energy. And the last time Obama DID call for conservation measures by keeping your tires properly inflated they made fun of him.

(and me and my house did make it on national television Didn't you see it?)

August 2008, when nationwide gasoline prices topped $4.00/gallon in many places, CANDIDATE Obama mentioned a way to reduce (perhaps the easiest way) fuel consumption. Once elected and fuel prices retreated to range of $2.5, President Obama hasn't had conservation any where the top of his agenda.

Did it make "Mother Earth News"? Sorry, I gave up on commercial TV as a source of news a decade ago. \

We agree on carbon cycle and long sequestered Petroleum and Coal. You obviously have a background in chemistry.
post #152 of 196
Quote:
Originally Posted by fdp3 View Post

From 2003-2008 the price of a barrel of crude rose from $25 to $147. You're suggesting this was a benefit because it stimulated research into alternatives ...

On a completely technical standpoint this is true and is well known. For example - T. Boone Pickens was planning on building the largest wind farm in the whole of the country back during the time that oil and ng prices were through the roof but since ng prices have dropped so far it's no longer economically feasible so he's delayed building it. NG would have to be around $7/MMBtu for wind to be more profitable. Now the gov't may dump money into the research but the only way a financially aware company is going to do anything with their own money is if they stand to make a profit from it.

http://greeninc.blogs.nytimes.com/20...lays-his-plan/
post #153 of 196
Quote:
Originally Posted by weisbear View Post

August 2008, when nationwide gasoline prices topped $4.00/gallon in many places, CANDIDATE Obama mentioned a way to reduce (perhaps the easiest way) fuel consumption. Once elected and fuel prices retreated to range of $2.5, President Obama hasn't had conservation any where the top of his agenda.

I'm curious why no candidate pointed out the easiest and most "duh" way to save gas - above 40 mph roll up your windows. Maybe since I'm an engineer it makes perfect sense to me so I don't get why people don't get it but, seriously, rolling up your windows increases the efficiency of your vehicle by roughly the same 3% as inflating your tires but it's much easier as most people don't have air compressors in their home or car.

http://www.dailyfueleconomytip.com/u...he-windows-up/
post #154 of 196
Quote:
Originally Posted by weisbear View Post

I don't there is anyone who has had rudimentary physical science couses who does't believe that "CLIMATE CHANGES". It has changes for billions of years. (earth approx 4.5B years old). The discusion should be relegated to AGW. That means "Anthropogenic Global Warming".

What is the temp of the earth supposed to be and remain at? Who determines what is the ideal
temperatue...... the temperature of Paris in 1275 AD, 1787? 1930? 1500BC? How about Great lakes area 12,000 BC, 800AD, 1920AD? How arrogant can you get mankind? Pollution can be controlled. The carbon cylce, which includes animal and plant life forms is far too complex for even the most sophisticated modeling programs to predict let alone control. Want to control Carbon.... control and reverse reproduction of species, including humans, the biggest users of carbon compounds.

What you're forgetting, and what many in the anti-globl warming crowd are forgetting, is that what we do is different from what the solar system does that affects the earth, and is different from what happens on, and in, the earth itself.

It's not a matter of what we do being the entire mover of the earths climate, but that what we do is tipping it over.

What's important to acknowledge is that industry is releasing all the carbon accumulated below ground, and taken out of the surface over a period of hundreds of millions of years, over a few decades.

This has a serious affect. Then the cutting down of major forests around the world also has a major effect.

Those of you who think that scientists don't know about, or don't understand what the ecology does by itself are very naive about what science is all about.

No sane scientist denies that major volcanos have affects, some major. None deny that sunspots have affects. None deny that the sun warms a small amount, and cools a small amount, and that affects weather here. It's well understood that these are serious problems that we have no control over.

But we are also contributing to the problem. And our contribution is the only one that we can effect.

If someone gives you a glass of water and says that there is a 10% chance that there is poison in the water, but that their testing hasn't yet confirmed it, do you drink that water because you're thirsty, or do you wait until the tests come back? Do you go somewhere else for a different glass of water?

We can't go anywhere else.

Even if global warming wasn't pretty much considered a fact that could have very serious effects, shouldn't we take measures now, before we might find out it's too late?

You'd rather sit back until everyone is 100% certain of exactly what's happening first?

That makes no sense.

That's an industry position from people who don't care about the future, just about present sales and profits.
post #155 of 196
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Just like he did with Vista.

He didn't actually care much for Vista.
post #156 of 196
Quote:
Originally Posted by weisbear View Post

August 2008, when nationwide gasoline prices topped $4.00/gallon in many places, CANDIDATE Obama mentioned a way to reduce (perhaps the easiest way) fuel consumption. Once elected and fuel prices retreated to range of $2.5, President Obama hasn't had conservation any where the top of his agenda.

Did it make "Mother Earth News"? Sorry, I gave up on commercial TV as a source of news a decade ago. \

We agree on carbon cycle and long sequestered Petroleum and Coal. You obviously have a background in chemistry.

Conservation is still a big part of his agenda, but Republicans still oppose it.
post #157 of 196
Quote:
Originally Posted by teckstud View Post

He didn't actually care much for Vista.

Yes he did. He loved it at first.

He said that same thing about Vista that he's now saying about 7.

Here's two quotes from him:

"After months of testing Vista on multiple computers, new and old, I believe it is the best version of Windows that Microsoft has produced." Wall Street Journal, Jan. 18, 2007

"After using pre-release versions of Windows 7 for nine months, and intensively testing the final version for the past month on many different machines, I believe it is the best version of Windows Microsoft has produced." Wall Street Journal, Oct. 8, 2009
post #158 of 196
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

I do understand it. I've been following the movement for years.

Good to hear.

Frustrating people make nature illegal, blame us for the outcomes and tax us for their cause. -
post #159 of 196
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Conservation is still a big part of his agenda, but Republicans still oppose it.

That's rather misleading - point to a bill that is 100% conservation and does nothing else but promotes conservation. There is no bill that has but 1 thing listed and that is "ask Americans to be more energy efficient" - there's always something else tied to it. All the bills are loaded with so many things you can say Republicans oppose x, y, and z and you can say Democrats oppose that same x, y, and z just because they were part of a different bill that was geared for something else.

That's akin to saying Republicans don't want people to have health care - every sane person wishes everyone had health care - that's not the argument. The argument is 1) how to implement it and 2) how to pay for it.
post #160 of 196
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigmc6000 View Post

I'm curious why no candidate pointed out the easiest and most "duh" way to save gas - above 40 mph roll up your windows. Maybe since I'm an engineer it makes perfect sense to me so I don't get why people don't get it but, seriously, rolling up your windows increases the efficiency of your vehicle by roughly the same 3% as inflating your tires but it's much easier as most people don't have air compressors in their home or car.

http://www.dailyfueleconomytip.com/u...he-windows-up/

I did not know that! Good feed!
In this part of the world (South and Southwest)people keep the A/C is running full and windows are closed in all kinds of mild weather. What part of fuel economy is wasted on running the A/C compressors? I have even witnessed (Central Texas visits) cars running with A/C running, UNATTENDED, in grocery parking lot. Also saw a lot of running diesel pickups for some dumb reason, even in spring and fall. when A/C is totally unwarranted due to prevailing cool ambient temps.

In 1948 A/C was driving 40+ MPH with windows DOWN and side vents windows tilted to reverse.
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