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Apple's Safari gets prime placement in Windows browser ballot - Page 2

post #41 of 74
so there is a great thing going on here. Microsoft is giving users the option to pick their own browsers.

and waaah, this article just complains at the placement? lame
sorry, if Alphabetical by company doesn't work fine, then i think they are giving too little credit to people who own computers.

heck my 13 yr old nephew knows what browsers he likes and wants better than this writer.

sorry... but i don't think Safari being listed first is a huge advantage. its an ok browser on windows, but if you know anything from being a mac user, you sometimes need several browsers, not each one works well with all websites. thats why i have Firefox and Safari. and who knows i may give Opera and Chrome a try.
post #42 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by Banalltv View Post

Given a vertical alphabetical list, like in an election ballot, then being first may have some advantage.

Given a smorgasbord selection like this with large logos I think people will gravitate first to the logo most familiar to them.

Bingo. Totally agree with you. This kind of layout i think there is no particular advantage being at the far left. Being in the middle is probably more of an advantage if there is one at all.
post #43 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by allblue View Post

0.81% still using Netscape!

Yeah there's some dude in Pittsburgh that just can't let it go. He loves that crazy little browser...
post #44 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by al_bundy View Post

Apple and MS have a nice financial relationship. what a way to show it off

I don't think that's the reason. This arrangement was carefully calculated, but I think it's because Safari has a much lower marketshare - 4%? And is less than a threat to Microsoft.
post #45 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by Takeo View Post

I don't think a horizontal list "first" position is the same as a vertical list first position (like the voting ballot example). I don't think there's that much advantage. You might argue the IE had the greater advantage... being smack dab in the middle of the screen. Anyway... who cares.

I absolutely agree with you. It's a huge misconception that design-ignorant people make all the time. Just because people read English text from left to right, doesn't make the left position the dominant position on a row for webpage graphics.
It would be hilarious if they change this and arrange them according to share, and put Safari third in the row - center of the page.
post #46 of 74
Is this settlement intended to provided equality of choice, or outcome? If the who point is to give people a choice to run a different browser, then there is no need for a ballot. The world has changed since the original complaint and choice is abundant. If the purpose is secure equitable outcomes, then the court needs to require MS to ship a certain percentage of its systems with particular browsers pre-instaled. No ballot system will guarantee results.

If offering choice is the point, then there is no good reason that MS should not be able to ship with their own damn browser installed. When the browser launches for the first time, the page can give a disclaimer that they have been centered by the courts and are required to provide information about and access to other browsers. From there, a person can simply choose.

Finally, if this ballot pops up in front of a user who does not know anything about browsers, they will just be confused and will eventually choose IE no matter what position it is in as that is the only browser they know. For those who know about the other choices, they are going to set them up as the default browser on their computer anyway. The only way to keep the unwashed masses from choosing IE is to eliminate it as an option. Barring that, this is all a colossal waste of time, and an embarrassment to the EU legal system for failing to understand the basic truth about web browsers and computer users.
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post #47 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by Banalltv View Post

Given a vertical alphabetical list, like in an election ballot, then being first may have some advantage.

Given a smorgasbord selection like this with large logos I think people will gravitate first to the logo most familiar to them.

Not that I am disagreeing, I have no idea. If that is the case then it doesn't bode well for the IQ of people who do that! Scary!
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post #48 of 74
Forget Microsoft! Mozilla is the real evil!

Firefox is slow! and buggy!

I personally use Chromium dev-channel on all OSes, and find it more stable than IE and Fx.

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post #49 of 74
They're in alphabetical order
A = Apple
G = Google
M1 = Microsoft
M2 = Mozilla
O = Opera

If someone doesn't like the order, then they should rename their company

I think the EU commission would have been unhappy if they used anything BUT the alphabet
post #50 of 74
Based on what the ballot looks like I would guess that Google Chrome would get the most picks, as Google is the most recognizable brand name shown on the ballot. Everyone already thinks of Google as being synonymous with web search anyway. How many non-geeks know of Safari, FireFox, or Opera anyway?
post #51 of 74
My guess is that if someone had been living under a rock and hadn't heard of any brand before, they would choose in this order:
1) IE
2) Safari
3) Tie: Google Firefox and Opera

IE comes first because it is dead center and because of the negative space used in the graphic. It's also the only choice that correctly answers what may be perceived as a question. "Select your web browser(s)" could be interpreted as "Which is your browser?" Well, the window title says right there on the top with the IE icon that I'm using IE. Additionally, if no choice is made, IE remains as the default.

Safari comes next but it's not just because it's in the left most position but also because its graphic is outline beveled. It implies a default choice (especially being on the left). Of course depending on the page code, hitting return for this page, expecting a default of Safari could result in the "Select Later" button being activated which leaves IE as the default. There is prioritization here, although less than if it was vertical. Notice the scroll bar. This implies that there are other options past Opera and they prioritized from the left. This would also be a problem if for some reason the browser window was shrunk horizontally...Opera/Firefox might not show unless scrolled upon.

They should:
  • Have this take place during the install and outside of a browser.
  • Make sure all choices appear on screen without scrolling.
  • Have the choices appear in random order (time-seeded and verified).

Also, I wouldn't mind if they removed IE from the list of options
post #52 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulMJohnson View Post

What does Boriss suggest then? At least putting things alphabetically has some logic behind it. The alternative that I see would be to put them in installed base size order, but that would put IE top, and she wouldn't like that.

She should just convince Mozilla to change the name of Firefox to Aardvark and then keep quiet!

The problem is you can say the more common names would result in this order:

Firefox
Google Chrome
Internet Explorer
Opera
Safari

Which is what I think Boriss is driving at.
post #53 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by jcsegenmd View Post

They're in alphabetical order
A = Apple
G = Google
M1 = Microsoft
M2 = Mozilla
O = Opera

If someone doesn't like the order, then they should rename their company

I think the EU commission would have been unhappy if they used anything BUT the alphabet

Why set them up alphabetically by company? The formal names of the products results in this order:

Firefox
Google Chrome
Internet Explorer
Opera
Safari

Which is what I think Boriss is driving at.
post #54 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by Banalltv View Post

Given a vertical alphabetical list, like in an election ballot, then being first may have some advantage.

I was going to say the exact same thing. This Jenny Boriss person is out of her mind... it's presented in a horizontal arrangement (I wonder what other browsers are offered by scrolling to the right??). I'm willing to bet that most people's eyes fall on what is centered on their page- in this case, its the button that leads to IE8. In all reality, Firefox has the benefit here of having their button situated directly to the right (preferential treatment, I would say), whereas Safari is all the way to the left and seems more obscure. That and, I think to the Windows masses, Safari is a foreign browser. Firefox and IE8, as the graph shows (and everyone knows), enjoy far greater usage and awareness. I think Boriss is complaining out her ass.

I must say though- nice look! Well presented, clean, and even looks Apple-esque. Impressive. Too bad this will only be offered over the pond. Maybe Microsoft will offer it as an optional update for non-European users... even if I do use Firefox 95% of the time, I'd still like to be given the option to experiment with other browsing experiences.
post #55 of 74
While I agree that placing Apple's Safari first gives it an undeserved bias, I don't agree that market share should have anything to do with the relative placement of the top 5 browsers. Mozilla Firefox is a great browser, but not 30% market share great. It simply has it's market share because it was released and heavily marketed long before the likes of Safari for Windows, Chrome, and free versions of Opera came into existence, at a time when people were simply fed up with IE 6. If all the browsers had to start over today, Chrome and Opera would be much closer in market share to Firefox (Safari would not, as the first Windows versions sucked and the current version still needs work). Claiming that the choice users want to make will be Firefox because Firefox has more market share right now, and therefore Firefox should appear first or more often than the other browsers is just plain bullshit and would likely eventually result in a new IE6, except from Mozilla. The order should simply be randomized.
post #56 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffharris View Post

A 12 year old deal that MS made to try and get the Department of Justice off their backs, can hardly be categorized as a "financial relationship" at this point in time.
Besides, I believe that "deal" expired after 5 years.

And the money was to pacify Apple with regards to how Quicktime code ended up in Windows Media Player? \
post #57 of 74
screw it
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post #58 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by nagromme View Post

Question order IS a known factor in poll results, which is why political polls (for example) will sometimes randomize that.

However, polls don't normally exist in one single row. I agree that in a HORIZONTAL layout like this, IE, smack in the middle, is what pops into my awareness first.

Still, now everyone can point in amazement at how low Safari's share is despite having an "advantage"



Huh! The chimp went straight for Opera. Interesting.

Maybe they should take a leaf out the world of search engines and in particular Google Search. Include a button prominently in the ballot called 'I feel lucky'
post #59 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by nudist View Post

Maybe they should take a leaf out the world of search engines and in particular Google Search. Include a button prominently in the ballot called 'I feel lucky'

Hehe..
post #60 of 74
Methinks the browser Ballot should be something like this when you boot up your computer for the first time http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/9130/euballot.png (I was bored, made the boot up screen myself, so no complaints about it being ugly)
The user picks the desired browser, the computer downloads and installs the browser (In an "Configuring Updates"-way) and also uninstalls Internet Explorer. (Of course, if they chose IE, that won't be happening)
post #61 of 74
The settlement being referred to was the one between Apple and Microsoft. Apple was suing Microsoft at the time. The 150 Million investment was part of the settlement between Apple and Microsoft. Microsoft also gave Apple an undisclosed sum and a guarantee to create Office for five years.

Both companies needed the deal at the time. Apple probably more then Microsoft.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffharris View Post

A 12 year old deal that MS made to try and get the Department of Justice off their backs, can hardly be categorized as a "financial relationship" at this point in time.
Besides, I believe that "deal" expired after 5 years.
post #62 of 74
I think the EU is a bit behind the times here. There has been strong competition (and the resulting innovation) in the browser market for several years now. And it happened due to Microsoft resting on their laurels, allowing the open source community (and companies like Apple) to catch up. No government action was required, just human laziness.
post #63 of 74
And for those of us who use/need more than one Browser nothing really changes, as there you probably can choose only one.

I think Mozilla woman has one point. Safari really sucks on windows. If you only count the useful features (unlike stupid ressource hogs like cover flow) it is as good as Chrome. The Latte also offers decent speed in everything. Safari renders fast but that is about it, and every modern Browser renders fast enough. On my older machine the starting up part and switching tabs, using top sites is in Safari horrible to the point of being significantly worse than any other Browser. The only Browser that sometimes behaves worse is Firefox with either a Bug or too many big plug-ins.
And for those who can't read marketshare stats. Safari on Win+Mac is not the marketshare you should take.
post #64 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by Banalltv View Post

Given a vertical alphabetical list, like in an election ballot, then being first may have some advantage.

Given a smorgasbord selection like this with large logos I think people will gravitate first to the logo most familiar to them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by marcuf95 View Post

Based on what the ballot looks like I would guess that Google Chrome would get the most picks, as Google is the most recognizable brand name shown on the ballot. Everyone already thinks of Google as being synonymous with web search anyway. How many non-geeks know of Safari, FireFox, or Opera anyway?

Agree to all of the above... especially Google. Everyone knows it and the logo, and the non-tech older people will absolutely say,"Why of course I need Google". Chrome will be their "default" browser, but not necessarily their "choice".
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post #65 of 74
I use Google Chrome on my Windows machine but I know that I'll still have to install IE when I upgrade to Windows 7. There's still way too many websites out there that will only work properly in IE (the latest example I've come across is part of Electronic Art's website).
post #66 of 74
This is stupid, why is apparently everybody suggesting users are looking through that list from left to right as if it was text? These are logos, so people will probably look at the middle first, at the borders last, or at the logos they recognize. That also means Opera has got the spot they deserve for their crappy product, last in list, rightmost, most unrecognized logo and brand
post #67 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by bongo View Post

This is stupid, why is apparently everybody suggesting users are looking through that list from left to right as if it was text? These are logos, so people will probably look at the middle first, at the borders last, or at the logos they recognize. That also means Opera has got the spot they deserve for their crappy product, last in list, rightmost, most unrecognized logo and brand

Stupid indeed. Everyone's a self appointed perceptual psychologist all of a sudden. I suppose all the peoples in the world that read from right to left are picking Opera! I agree with you, my eyes went first to the center but that's just me and I hate IE
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post #68 of 74
I think he has a point, to a point. Though I think the bigger issue is that Safari gets a boarder far more pronounced than the others.
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post #69 of 74
Leave it to the EU to make Windows even more needlessly complicated than it needs to be. I'm convinced that micro-regulation will always benefit the status quo anyway.

As far as the whining goes, randomize it.
post #70 of 74
If list by product name, Safari goes to the end but IE is still the middle.

Chrome
Firefox
Internet Explorer
Opera
Safari

I'm guessing that we give Microsoft oh about 1 month or so before the EU slaps some with a complaint saying it was unfair their browser happen to be in the middle.

Microsoft can't and won't win. They should've just said to hell with the EU. No browsers for you. Figure out how to get it yourself.
post #71 of 74
From a design standpoint, Apple's Safari is last or second to last in terms of prime spots, with IE8 being the in the prime spot (Since its in the center) Even though we read right to left, we focus on the center of the page in terms of graphics.

Though personally, I think that this whole "Safari is first!" is extremely trivial and pointless. All the major browsers are on that page.

Secondly, I really hope the EU makes things equal and forces Apple to do the same thing on their next OS release.
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post #72 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by camroidv27 View Post

Secondly, I really hope the EU makes things equal and forces Apple to do the same thing on their next OS release.

And Linux too? Get ready for some serious whining about forcing nasty proprietary apps onto Linux.

i don't use Firefox much and I'm inclined to use it far less now.
post #73 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by camroidv27 View Post

Secondly, I really hope the EU makes things equal and forces Apple to do the same thing on their next OS release.

Why? Fairness does not equal everything and everyone being ground down to sameness.

The last time I bought a Mac (my aging but trusty G4) it came preloaded with Safari and Opera. At the time Explorer no longer existed for Mac, Chrome was yet to be, and about Firefox, I'm not sure. So Apple was already ahead in the EU's curve.

Also, Safari is standards compliant. The big problem with Explorer is that Microsoft ignores uniform standards and creates their own (often proprietary) standards. Microsoft's market dominance then tends to make their standards into de facto standards, which in turn perpetuates their dominance. This is likely the real issue.
post #74 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by ufwa View Post

Microsoft can't and won't win. They should've just said to hell with the EU. No browsers for you. Figure out how to get it yourself.

Yeah, down with the EU and their anti-monopolystic viewpoints! Their argument is sound, and it comes about more so because IE sucks so bad more than anything else. If IE was on par with other browsers developing for it would work nice with other browsers, so Microsoft are paying the price for not looking after their corner.
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