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New 27" iMac designed to also work as a display - Page 6

post #201 of 223
Quote:
Originally Posted by Emvee View Post

What is the way to find out if Apple is planning some kind of adapter for this? And to find out what type of (conversion) hardware they already included in the iMac? Clearly a lot of people will be wanting this!

They must be. There Tech Specs do state “adapter sold seperatel”, but it also ddly states that it has mDP for OUTPUT to another monitor and DP for INPUT from another source. For this reason I had thought the 27” imac would have separate input and output ports. This is not the case. Why change up the wording unless they are planning on having a special dongle adapter?

From Apple’s website...
Quote:
Mini DisplayPort output port with support for DVI, VGA, and dual-link DVI (adapters sold separately). 27-inch models also [Bs]upport input from external DisplayPort sources[/B] (adapters sold separately).
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post #202 of 223
I wonder if they're using ATI's AVIVO chip for this.
post #203 of 223
Quote:
Originally Posted by cdifferent View Post

Ever since I read this about this feature, I've been struggling to understand what its real value is - whats the killer scenario. After all, if I have a powerful notebook, I'm not going to run out and buy a new desktop, just so I can get more screen resolution, I'd buy a monitor, not a whole new computer. But then I started to think, what if I had a device with a small screen and not so great computing power that I mostly used away from my desk- like a tablet or a netbook. Then I would have the need to buy a second more powerful computer with a monitor I could plug into and possibly leverage the keyboard and mouse connected to that computer for my portable device. That seems like a more reasonable scenario to me.

I have also been wondering about this new feature and can only conclude it may have something to do with the next "big thing" and completely concur with your logic.

Suppose Apple introduced a tablet of some sort that would multitask as a input device, similar to a Wacaom tablet, allowing you to draw. And suppose an iPod type connector would have limitations or be impractical, so the next obvious conclusion is a mini DVI port. We all know that Apple wouldn't bother if the device was just a tablet, it has to be much bigger.
post #204 of 223
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

They must be. There Tech Specs do state “adapter sold seperatel”, but it also ddly states that it has mDP for OUTPUT to another monitor and DP for INPUT from another source. For this reason I had thought the 27” imac would have separate input and output ports. This is not the case. Why change up the wording unless they are planning on having a special dongle adapter?

From Apple’s website...

I don't think there's any changed wording. There's a dual function port (much like the line out/line in mini jack for audio) which can output mDP/DVI/VGA signals, and which can accept mDP/DP signals. It remains to be seen what kind of adapter/software solutions will be offered for connecting devices other than another Mac with mDP out, by converting HDMI/DVI signals to mDP.
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post #205 of 223
What we need are these. If the DisplayPort input on the iMac can upscale, then these adapters can work. Somebody will have to try.

http://atlona.com/Atlona-DVI-to-Mini...r-p-17859.html
http://atlona.com/Atlona-Pal-HDMI-to...p-p-17375.html

If the iMac can't upscale then we would need a better version of these that support the display resolution of the iMac.

Also, those are pro grade devices, capable of all sorts of cool things but a much cheaper adapter can be built with purpose specific hardware.
post #206 of 223
Quote:
Originally Posted by BDBLACK View Post

What we need are these. If the DisplayPort input on the iMac can upscale, then these adapters can work. Somebody will have to try.

http://atlona.com/Atlona-DVI-to-Mini...r-p-17859.html
http://atlona.com/Atlona-Pal-HDMI-to...p-p-17375.html

If the iMac can't upscale then we would need a better version of these that support the display resolution of the iMac.

Also, those are pro grade devices, capable of all sorts of cool things but a much cheaper adapter can be built with purpose specific hardware.

Someone has already tried the Atlona DVI to Mini DisplayPort converter and it didn't work after multiple attempts at making it do so (reboot, config changes, etc.).
post #207 of 223
Quote:
Originally Posted by wattsup View Post

Someone has already tried the Atlona DVI to Mini DisplayPort converter and it didn't work after multiple attempts at making it do so (reboot, config changes, etc.).

Ah, thats what i thought. The Atlona adapter can't drive enough pixels. Now we know there is no scaling hardware in the iMac, meaning the iMac only accepts its native resolution. We will have to wait for someone to release an adapter that can convert the signal and upscale to the iMac's display.
post #208 of 223
Quote:
Originally Posted by wattsup View Post

Someone has already tried the Atlona DVI to Mini DisplayPort converter and it didn't work after multiple attempts at making it do so (reboot, config changes, etc.).

Quote:
Originally Posted by BDBLACK View Post

Ah, thats what i thought. The Atlona adapter can't drive enough pixels. Now we know there is no scaling hardware in the iMac, meaning the iMac only accepts its native resolution. We will have to wait for someone to release an adapter that can convert the signal and upscale to the iMac's display.

With all these limitations, and the odd idea of hooking up any notebook to the 27 iMac to use as a 2nd display, while disallowing the iMac itself from utilizing it, I cant help but wonder what the hell Apples focus is here. Should we be looking for more home theater appliances with DP being demoed at CES in January?
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post #209 of 223
How do you switch it over? Is there a menu extra?
post #210 of 223
Quote:
Originally Posted by retroneo View Post

How do you switch it over? Is there a menu extra?

"According to what I read you can switch between the iMac and Target Display Modes by pressing the 'CMD' and 'F2' keys. It will also switch into the Target Display Mode automatically if you connect a mini-Displayport device to the iMac's Displayport, and then you can use the 'CMD' and 'F2' keys to switch modes."

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post #211 of 223
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

With all these limitations, and the odd idea of hooking up any notebook to the 27 iMac to use as a 2nd display, while disallowing the iMac itself from utilizing it, I cant help but wonder what the hell Apples focus is here. Should we be looking for more home theater appliances with DP being demoed at CES in January?

I would suspect many home theatre appliances would require additional upscaling hardware as well, even if they support displayport.

I think apple's focus was to simply give access to the display, without increasing the cost of the iMac. At least this way the consumer gets to choose the quality if that hardware, based on their needs.
post #212 of 223
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

"According to what I read you can switch between the iMac and Target Display Modes by pressing the 'CMD' and 'F2' keys. It will also switch into the Target Display Mode automatically if you connect a mini-Displayport device to the iMac's Displayport, and then you can use the 'CMD' and 'F2' keys to switch modes."


Also, the mouse doesnt work when the screen is switched and the the only keys that works on the iMacs keyboard are the top row that adjust brightness, sound and the play/pause buttons, as I recall.
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post #213 of 223
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

With all these limitations, and the odd idea of hooking up any notebook to the 27” iMac to use as a 2nd display, while disallowing the iMac itself from utilizing it, I can’t help but wonder what the hell Apple’s focus is here. Should we be looking for more home theater appliances with DP being demoed at CES in January?

I'm pretty certain that I've already read about consumer devices that will (or currently do) include DisplayPort outputs.
post #214 of 223
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

They must be. There Tech Specs do state adapter sold seperatel, but it also ddly states that it has mDP for OUTPUT to another monitor and DP for INPUT from another source. For this reason I had thought the 27 imac would have separate input and output ports. This is not the case. Why change up the wording unless they are planning on having a special dongle adapter?

From Apples website...

May I now assume that you've backtracked on your earlier insistence that DisplayPort is "compatible with HDMI/DVI" and that the "DP spec was designed to understand HDMI?"

http://forums.appleinsider.com/showp...&postcount=146

I'm just trying to keep the record straight as there were a lot of seemingly misguided post concerning the video input on the new iMac. Admittedly, you weren't the only one, but you've been one of the most vocal.
post #215 of 223
Quote:
Originally Posted by wattsup View Post

May I now assume that you've backtracked on your earlier insistence that DisplayPort is "compatible with HDMI/DVI" and that the "DP spec was designed to understand HDMI?"

http://forums.appleinsider.com/showp...&postcount=146

I'm just trying to keep the record straight as there were a lot of seemingly misguided post concerning the video input on the new iMac. Admittedly, you weren't the only one, but you've been one of the most vocal.

It is compatible. Right from displayport.org’s own FAQ page and found at other parts of their site: " The DisplayPort connector is compatible with HDMI signals, enabling product interoperability.” I did get turned around in my thinking that a DP could understand incoming HDMi/DVI signaling by design. It’s backwards compatible, but only one way. You can go out to HDMI/DVI, but not in from.

I also hoped that Apple’s solution would allow for the understanding of HDMI/DVI since it’s the same port for outgoing, which can output HDMI/DVI signaling. All testing has shown that not to be the case. Unless we see media appliances with DP—which doesn’t seem unlikely—the reasoning for adding this to the 27” seems pretty pointless.
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post #216 of 223
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

It is compatible. Right from displayport.org’s own FAQ page and found at other parts of their site: " The DisplayPort connector is compatible with HDMI signals, enabling product interoperability.” I did get turned around in my thinking that a DP could understand incoming HDMi/DVI signaling by design. It’s backwards compatible, but only one way. You can go out to HDMI/DVI, but not in from.

I also hoped that Apple’s solution would allow for the understanding of HDMI/DVI since it’s the same port for outgoing, which can output HDMI/DVI signaling. All testing has shown that not to be the case. Unless we see media appliances with DP—which doesn’t seem unlikely—the reasoning for adding this to the 27” seems pretty pointless.

This is Incorrect on at least two points. The DisplayPort FAQ says that the connector is compatible with HDMI signals. But that's just for the pass through of HDMI signals -- it doesn't mean that the signals are compatible. Second, it isn't "backward compatible, but only one way." The connector is compatible for both input and output (otherwise, how would you expect anything other than DisplayPort to work on input?). It's the connector that is compatible, not the DisplayPort signals.

The reason why the existing DVI/VGA and by extension HDMI adapters work for output is that the Mac's internal video card is generating DVI/VGA signals which are then passed through the Mini DisplayPort connector. This has nothing to do with backward compatibility of the signals.
post #217 of 223
Quote:
Originally Posted by wattsup View Post

This is Incorrect on at least two points. The DisplayPort FAQ says that the connector is compatible with HDMI signals. But that's just for the pass through of HDMI signals -- it doesn't mean that the signals are compatible. Second, it isn't "backward compatible, but only one way." The connector is compatible for both input and output (otherwise, how would you expect anything other than DisplayPort to work on input?). It's the connector that is compatible, not the DisplayPort signals.

The reason why the existing DVI/VGA and by extension HDMI adapters work for output is that the Mac's internal video card is generating DVI/VGA signals which are then passed through the Mini DisplayPort connector. This has nothing to do with backward compatibility of the signals.

"With simple adapters you can be

backwards compatible to VGA, DVI even HDMI.

"DisplayPort provides the ultimate range of connectivity options enabling a single connector on the PC to connect to monitors, projectors and HDTVs that may have VGA, DVI, or HDMI inputs, making DisplayPort an easy, universal and cross-application solution.

"DisplayPort only needs a simple DisplayPort cable adapter to make an HDMI connection to an HDTV.

It enables connectivity to existing equipment that uses older interfaces such as VGA, DVI or HDMI. It is also future ready unlike many connectivity technologies, DisplayPort is designed to supply an affordable, future-ready connection. DisplayPort not only connects backwards to older technologies, it is designed to accommodate future advances too.

"DisplayPort is designed to meet the future needs of the PC industry while preserving connectivity with DVI, VGA, and HDMI. Maybe you should tell them they are wrong.
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post #218 of 223
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

[INDENT]"With simple adapters you can be backwards compatible to VGA, DVI even HDMI.”

"DisplayPort provides the ultimate range of connectivity options enabling a single connector on the PC to connect to monitors, projectors and HDTVs that may have VGA, DVI, or HDMI inputs, making DisplayPort an easy, universal and cross-application solution.”

[...]

Maybe you should tell them they are wrong.

What he's trying to tell you is that because the DisplayPort standard is completely agnostic about the nature of the signal it's transporting there can be an incompatibility between a sender using one signal and a receiver expecting another. In other words, not every vendor who implements DisplayPort will necessarily build in support for every signal that DisplayPort is capable of carrying, nor will they necessarily build in support for the kind of handshaking that, e.g., a PS3 will do with an HDTV to determine the best resolution. DisplayPort requires none of that, so you should never assume that any of it is implemented.

As it turns out, the iMac's driver behind the DP input is pretty lazy. It wouldn't know what to do with the HDCP signal that DP will cheerfully transport from source to destination, nor would it know how to react to any handshaking which DP will also cheerfully transport from source to destination.

DP is neither the problem nor the solution here, it's just a common carrier. Cell phones can transport both data and voice signals, but that doesn't guarantee that humans can understand the data signals, nor that software can understand voice signals.

The good news is that since the problem lies with the iMac's implementation, it is not outside the realm of possibility for Apple to patch in support for other protocols like HDCP. The only questions are: whether Apple sees strategic value in implementing a protocol, and; whether the protocol is such a "bag of hurt" that it's not worth implementing it even if Apple would like to.
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post #219 of 223
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

"With simple adapters you can be

backwards compatible to VGA, DVI even HDMI.

"DisplayPort provides the ultimate range of connectivity options enabling a single connector on the PC to connect to monitors, projectors and HDTVs that may have VGA, DVI, or HDMI inputs, making DisplayPort an easy, universal and cross-application solution.

"DisplayPort only needs a simple DisplayPort cable adapter to make an HDMI connection to an HDTV.

It enables connectivity to existing equipment that uses older interfaces such as VGA, DVI or HDMI. It is also future ready unlike many connectivity technologies, DisplayPort is designed to supply an affordable, future-ready connection. DisplayPort not only connects backwards to older technologies, it is designed to accommodate future advances too.

"DisplayPort is designed to meet the future needs of the PC industry while preserving connectivity with DVI, VGA, and HDMI. Maybe you should tell them they are wrong.

Nothing you quote there is at odds with what I've already explained. It is possible to use a simple adapter for DVI/HDMI/VGA pass through. DisplayPort and its connector are backward compatible (with an adapter) only as it allows the pass through of other video standards. If what you say is true why are companies making $200 video converters in order to drive Apple's Mini DisplayPort-equipped Cinema Display? Furthermore, why can't you attach a simple DVI to Mini DisplayPort cable to the iMac's input and get video in target display mode (and it's not because output is "compatible" but input is not -- as you've previously suggested)?

As has been explained before by several others, the video protocol used in DisplayPort is significantly different that either DVI/HDMI or VGA. Thus, you either need an active video converter to make one "compatible" with the other or you need to enable pass through of the previous video standards (DVI/HDMI or VGA).

For more information on this read the following article (paying particular attention to the section entitled "Bridging DisplayPort"):

http://www.edn.com/article/CA6574650.html
post #220 of 223
Quote:
Originally Posted by wattsup View Post

Nothing you quote there is at odds with what I've already explained. It is possible to use a simple adapter for DVI/HDMI/VGA pass through. DisplayPort and its connector are backward compatible (with an adapter) only as it allows the pass through of other video standards. If what you say is true why are companies making $200 video converters in order to drive Apple's Mini DisplayPort-equipped Cinema Display?

Its ONE-WAY. Any source coming from a DP/mDP port can output to a device that receives HDMI/DVI. Going from HDMI/DVI to DP/mDP isnt native to the DisplayPort specs. Or are you saying that choose to implement the output from their Macs to HDMI HDTVs, despite your insistence that the spec is not compatible, only the cable itself is compatible?

I speculated that they may have this wrapped up nicely to not only send HDMI/DVI signaling out, per the spec, but also receive them, since Apple uses the same port for both input and output. This would have been nice, but its obviously not what they have designed, now that we have testing done to confirm it.
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post #221 of 223
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

It’s ONE-WAY. Any source coming from a DP/mDP port can output to a device that receives HDMI/DVI. Going from HDMI/DVI to DP/mDP isn’t native to the DisplayPort specs. Or are you saying that choose to implement the output from their Macs to HDMI HDTVs, despite your insistence that the spec is not compatible, only the cable itself is compatible?

I speculated that they may have this wrapped up nicely to not only send HDMI/DVI signaling out, per the spec, but also receive them, since Apple uses the same port for both input and output. This would have been nice, but it’s obviously not what they have designed, now that we have testing done to confirm it.

"It's ONE-WAY."

There have already been several detailed posts from multiple sources explaining the situation very clearly. My only concern is that the posts that you continue to make will just add to the ongoing confusion surrounding the iMac's support for video input/output.

Here is what is certain.

Pass through of other video standards (i.e. DVI/HDMI) is possible under the DisplayPort spec. However, in order for this to work the device manufacturer must include support for this feature within the device itself. Pass through can work for either input or output (given the necessary support within the device). Without such support, you need an external, active video converter to make DisplayPort compatible with either DVI/HDMI or VGA. This latter seems to be the approach that third-parties are talking to enable either DVI or HDMI input into Apple's DisplayPort-equipped products (such as the 24" Apple Cinema Display and -- apparently -- the new 27" iMac).

The costs for said converters run upwards to $200 (DVI to Mini DisplayPort input) to a reported $400 to enable HDMI input from a PS3 to Apple's 24" Cinema Display (the latter requires both a converter and scaler). We don't know yet how much the input converts will cost for the new iMac, but from all current tests and analysis it appears that they will be fairly expensive (combining both an HDMI signal converter and a high-resolution scaler in an external box).

In any case, if you have a device (like any currently made -- new -- Mac) or a PC with a video card that directly supports DisplayPort then you should be able to connect that device to the iMac's Mini DisplayPort input with a simple cable or adapter (and fairly cheaply). Also, the existing output adapters from Apple and several third parties should continue to work with the new iMac.
post #222 of 223
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Its ONE-WAY. Any source coming from a DP/mDP port can output to a device that receives HDMI/DVI. Going from HDMI/DVI to DP/mDP isnt native to the DisplayPort specs. Or are you saying that choose to implement the output from their Macs to HDMI HDTVs, despite your insistence that the spec is not compatible, only the cable itself is compatible

NO

The DisplayPort connector has extra pins that can optionally be used to carry a DVI (which is the same as HDMI) video signal. Optionally. Optional. The manufacturer of the device decides, and has to provide a TMDS transmitter (aka a DVI controller chip) if they do it. Apple decided to do it on the mDP outputs on its computers, so that a simple adapter can drive a single-link DVI monitor.

For an example of a DisplayPort output that cannot be connect to a DVI monitor with a simple adapter, look at ATI's new 5000 series graphics cards. Their DisplayPort has no TMDS transmitter, so the only way to connect it to a DVI display is with an expensive active signal converter.
post #223 of 223
Well, we seem to have tentative closure on this topic (HDMI/DVI video input to the iMac). AppleInsider now has an article which basically confirms what I and several others have been saying for the last several days. Here is the link:

http://www.appleinsider.com/articles...ort_input.html
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