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Nokia sues Apple over iPhone's use of patented wireless standards - Page 2

post #41 of 74
The fact that Apple and Nokia have been in talks for the last year tells me that Apple knows its done the wrong thing. The bad thing about all this is that Apple hasn't factored in the costs to Nokia when projecting profits, and now they're gonna have to cut into their profits to pay up. Which is fair.
post #42 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by tawilson View Post

No, because Apple is competing very well against Psystar (according to Apple's latest results).

Apple is suing Psystar to "protect the brand".

Apple is suing psystar to protect their intellectual property, same thing Nokia is doing to Apple.


Their "brand" is part of their Intellectual Property portfolio

Nokia phone section is competing pretty nicely against the pure iPhone component of Apple.
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post #43 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by sheff View Post

How about Nokia "compensate" apple for [...] getting the average user to actually buy a smartphone.

Apple sold 7.4mil smartphones this quarter. A record for them.

Nokia was selling more than that four years ago.

Please don't make it sound like Apple brought smartphones to the masses.
post #44 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by ivan.rnn01 View Post


I don't necessarily agree with your "unbiased" love of C, but this is funny as hell none-the-less.
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post #45 of 74
Nokia's sudden desire to sue Apple wouldn't have anything at all to do with Nokia's $867 million loss for this last quarter, and Apple's $1.67 billion earning for the same period, would it?

Nah, didn't think so.....
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post #46 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulMJohnson View Post

Does that apply to Apple suing Psystar?

Really?

I can't think of anyone who would classify Psystar as a darling of any industry.
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post #47 of 74
If you can't beat em sue em.


and no, this doesn't apply to psystar as they are a bunch of thieving pricks.
post #48 of 74
Article on this at Sydney Morning Herald

http://www.smh.com.au/digital-life/m...1023-hc0g.html

If Nokia have spent $60 billion in 10 years they're not getting very good value for money considering their phones are basically the same pieces of crap they were 10 years ago! Shit design, no innovation and as robust as a freshly baked souffle What a pathetic company. They claim to have patents over network "standards"...hello....

Quote:
"By refusing to agree appropriate terms for Nokia's intellectual property, Apple is attempting to get a free ride on the back of Nokia's innovation," Ilkka Rahnasto, deputy head of Nokia's legal department, said in the statement.

The company stressed that it had spent $US60 billion in research and development over the past two decades.

"The ten patents in suit relate to technologies fundamental to making devices which are compatible with one or more of the GSM, UMTS (3G WCDMA) and wireless LAN standards," Nokia said.
post #49 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by irnchriz View Post

If you can't beat em sue em.


and no, this doesn't apply to psystar as they are a bunch of thieving pricks.

so if the case goes ahead, and apple is found to be illegally using somebody elses IP, you will also call them a bunch of thieving pricks?
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post #50 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulMJohnson View Post

Does that apply to Apple suing Psystar?

apple IS the psystar in this case. if nokia really has the patents apple should be respecting that and same goes with psystar for mac os x i'm not going to defending something or someone when they are wrong no matter how much i like them
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post #51 of 74
It seems round here that...

Apple sueing Pystar to protect it's IP = GREAT!
Nokia sueing Apple to protect it's IP = TERRIBLE TRAVISTY!

Now, they both should be the same thing, so which is it gonna be?
post #52 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by justflybob View Post

I don't necessarily agree with your "unibiased" love of C, but this is funny as hell none-the-less.

Thank you!
All those language "holy wars" are actually made just to laugh at. It's far more pleasing to know someone can see your humor. Thanks again.

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We mean Apple no harm.

People are lovers, basically. -- Engadget livebloggers at the iPad mini event.

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post #53 of 74
everyone is trying to take a swipe at the leader.lol!
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post #54 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by steve_arts View Post

everyone is trying to take a swipe at the leader.lol!

I'd hardly say everyone is taking a swipe at Nokia. It's only Apple that they're sueing.
post #55 of 74
yep coz Apple got them all scared shitless, way to go AAPL!
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post #56 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by s.metcalf View Post

What a pathetic company. They claim to have patents over network "standards"...hello....

Yo don't know much about telephony, don't you?
post #57 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichL View Post

Apple sold 7.4mil smartphones this quarter. A record for them.

Nokia was selling more than that four years ago.

Please don't make it sound like Apple brought smartphones to the masses.

No Apple did not bring smartphones to the masses by themselves. But they sure are helping. And their business is expanding.

Nokia on the other and is not helping bring smartphones to the masses because they decided to ignore the very important changing american market for smartphones. Apple, Google, and RIM have been changing the market and Nokia thumbed its nose so to speak. They didn't take it seriosly and now their business model needs an overhaul. The company has reason to be concerned. There business model clearly needs rethinking and a mass effort for change. Nokia reported a third-quarter loss of $1.36 billion as sales fell 20 percent globally and 25 percent in North America from a year earlier. Nokia has said that they "get it" but this is not what analysts see.

Remember Nokia sells all types of phones. Apple has one phone that it sells. Don't confuse this. Nokia is starting shake in its boots.
post #58 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by masstrkiller View Post

Nokia on the other and is not helping bring smartphones to the masses because they decided to ignore the very important changing american market for smartphones. Apple, Google, and RIM have been changing the market and Nokia thumbed its nose so to speak. They didn't take it seriosly and now their business model needs an overhaul. The company has reason to be concerned. There business model clearly needs rethinking and a mass effort for change. Nokia reported a third-quarter loss of $1.36 billion as sales fell 20 percent globally and 25 percent in North America from a year earlier. Nokia has said that they "get it" but this is not what analysts see.

Hate to tell you this, but, North America is not the masses. The North American population is only about 7% of the worlds population...

Quote:
Originally Posted by masstrkiller View Post

Remember Nokia sells all types of phones. Apple has one phone that it sells. Don't confuse this. Nokia is starting shake in its boots.

Apple sells more than one model, don't confuse yourself because they look the same, the 3G and 3GS are different, and the fact that there is software available now that will only run on the 3GS proves this...
post #59 of 74
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post #60 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by cycomiko View Post

so if the case goes ahead, and apple is found to be illegally using somebody elses IP, you will also call them a bunch of thieving pricks?

Psystar admitted in the first day that they are violating Apple's EULA and terms of sale and they are trying to justify their violation. However, this case is different because neither you nor Nokia really know how the iPhone handles data and voice connections internally without looking at Apple's codes. Since Apple was welling to pay Ericsson and Qualcomm licensing fees and not Nokia I think they can demonstrate that they are not violating Nokia's IP. No one can't tell without looking at Apple's iPhone code.
post #61 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox View Post

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Still flogging that horse?
post #62 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfanning View Post

Still flogging that horse?

Still pretending it's irrelevant?
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post #63 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox View Post

Still pretending it's irrelevant?

I'm not pretending
post #64 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by s.metcalf View Post

If Nokia have spent $60 billion in 10 years they're not getting very good value for money considering their phones are basically the same pieces of crap they were 10 years ago! Shit design, no innovation and as robust as a freshly baked souffle What a pathetic company. They claim to have patents over network "standards"...hello....



Nokia (among others) CREATED (and patented) parts of the network "standards"
For example the enhanced full rate codec voice codec in use in all mobile phones today, it was patented in 1995. "Enhanced Full Rate was developed by Nokia and the University of Sherbrooke (Canada) In 1995, ETSI has selected the Enhanced Full Rate voice codec as the industry standard codec for GSM/DCS" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enhanced_full_rate

They did not spend $60 billion in handset R&D, Nokia is on of the driving forces of the infrastructure technology and hold 100s of patents in this area. From parts of the packet data structure (wireless internet) for example: http://www.wikipatents.com/6701155.html
Voice and Video codecs, downloadable ringtones and even the so praised Mobil App store was patented many years ago.
post #65 of 74
Hmmm... interesting:-

"For some Nokia phones you can configure the use of this codec:
To activate EFR codec use enter the following code: *3370#
To deactivate EFR codec use enter the following code: #3370#"


From the article you linked to it seems you can turn it on and off, I guess that means you wouldn't really have to use it, so maybe Apple doesn't.

That's the reason they have courts, to sort out questions like this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rj305 View Post

Nokia (among others) CREATED (and patented) parts of the network "standards"
For example the enhanced full rate codec voice codec in use in all mobile phones today, it was patented in 1995. "Enhanced Full Rate was developed by Nokia and the University of Sherbrooke (Canada) In 1995, ETSI has selected the Enhanced Full Rate voice codec as the industry standard codec for GSM/DCS" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enhanced_full_rate

They did not spend $60 billion in handset R&D, Nokia is on of the driving forces of the infrastructure technology and hold 100s of patents in this area. From parts of the packet data structure (wireless internet) for example: http://www.wikipatents.com/6701155.html
Voice and Video codecs, downloadable ringtones and even the so praised Mobil App store was patented many years ago.
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post #66 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60 View Post

Hmmm... interesting:-

"For some Nokia phones you can configure the use of this codec:
To activate EFR codec use enter the following code: *3370#
To deactivate EFR codec use enter the following code: #3370#"


From the article you linked to it seems you can turn it on and off, I guess that means you wouldn't really have to use it, so maybe Apple doesn't.

That's the reason they have courts, to sort out questions like this.

Here is the list of complaints

http://www.intomobile.com/2009/10/25...iolations.html
post #67 of 74
Picture this scene, in a court a Nokia expert witness in the stand.

Apple counsel, "Would you explain what these are"

Presents following to the court.

"For some Nokia phones you can configure the use of this codec:
To activate EFR codec use enter the following code: *3370#
To deactivate EFR codec use enter the following code: #3370#"

Nokia expert: "that's a code to disable EFR"

Apple counsel: "So a cellphone is functional without using the EFR codec?"

Nokia expert: "Yes"

Apple counsel: So in other words the Nokia EFR codec is not "essential to the standards" as is alleged in the complaint.

Nokia expert: ???



Quote:
Originally Posted by jfanning View Post

Here is the list of complaints

http://www.intomobile.com/2009/10/25...iolations.html
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post #68 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60 View Post

Picture this scene, in a court a Nokia expert witness in the stand.

Apple counsel, "Would you explain what these are"

Presents following to the court.

"For some Nokia phones you can configure the use of this codec:
To activate EFR codec use enter the following code: *3370#
To deactivate EFR codec use enter the following code: #3370#"

Nokia expert: "that's a code to disable EFR"

Apple counsel: "So a cellphone is functional without using the EFR codec?"

Nokia expert: "Yes"

Apple counsel: So in other words the Nokia EFR codec is not "essential to the standards" as is alleged in the complaint.

Nokia expert: ???

Did you read the link, because the way you are just going on about EFR I don't think you did...

And that EFR thing is old, the codes don't work on newer phones
post #69 of 74
Using the EFR codec is one of the patents under dispute.

I believe it's paragraph 80, 81...

http://www.scribd.com/doc/21458614/N...pple-Complaint

So the NOKIA codecs don't work on newer phone's, so there are others?

Not licensed by Nokia perhaps?

Maybe Ericsson and Qualcomm who Apple does have licence agreements with, or maybe Apple came up with their own, they have done a little bit of work with codecs, you know.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jfanning View Post

Did you read the link, because the way you are just going on about EFR I don't think you did...

And that EFR thing is old, the codes don't work on newer phones
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post #70 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60 View Post

Using the EFR codec is one of the patents under dispute.

I believe it's paragraph 80, 81...

http://www.scribd.com/doc/21458614/N...pple-Complaint

So the NOKIA codecs don't work on newer phone's, so there are others?

Not licensed by Nokia perhaps?

Maybe Ericsson and Qualcomm who Apple does have licence agreements with, or maybe Apple came up with their own, they have done a little bit of work with codecs, you know.

You really need to learn to read, I said the codes don't work anymore, ie the feature is on all the time.

And remember, these aren't kids arguing in the playground, these are large corporations, they do their homework, they don't just start sueing other companies to fill in the day
post #71 of 74
Whether those codes work or not anymore isn't the issue, what they prove beyond any doubt, is that a cellphone will still work on a cellular network without using Nokia's patented technology.

A side issue would be whether those codes were working at the time of the granting of the patent.

Which seems somewhat contrary to the opening paragraphs of the actual complaint where Nokia attempts to portray it's patented technology as being essential in order for GSM technology to function.

Apple also pay licence fees, they don't just withhold them to fill in the day.

Anyway I'm not a lawyer or expert, I'm just presenting a hypothetical situation of how parts of a trial may proceed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jfanning View Post

You really need to learn to read, I said the codes don't work anymore, ie the feature is on all the time.

And remember, these aren't kids arguing in the playground, these are large corporations, they do their homework, they don't just start sueing other companies to fill in the day
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post #72 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60 View Post

Whether those codes work or not anymore isn't the issue, what they prove beyond any doubt, is that a cellphone will still work on a cellular network without using Nokia's patented technology.

I have sent an email to Apple, they should be in contact shortly to help with their defense...

Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60 View Post

A side issue would be whether those codes were working at the time of the granting of the patent.

The codes don't mean anything, they were just a way of turning on, or off a piece of technology that Nokia has the patent for. You are reading too much into the codes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60 View Post

Which seems somewhat contrary to the opening paragraphs of the actual complaint where Nokia attempts to portray it's patented technology as being essential in order for GSM technology to function.

Apple also pay licence fees, they don't just withhold them to fill in the day.

Apple must not be paying the licence fee, hence why they are being sued.
post #73 of 74
Apple have paid licence fees, just not to Nokia.

Perhaps the licence fees they paid to Ericsson and Qualcomm cover the way the iPhone works along with the technology they developed themselves.

I guess like everyone else we'll just have to wait to see what becomes of Nokia's allegations.

Hey do you think any of these cases will make it over to Europe?

Nokia's contention that it is impossible to build a cellphone without using their IP, might run into anti-trust issues.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jfanning View Post

Apple must not be paying the licence fee, hence why they are being sued.
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post #74 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60 View Post

Hey do you think any of these cases will make it over to Europe?

Maybe, I suppose it depends on how they do in the US

Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60 View Post

Nokia's contention that it is impossible to build a cellphone without using their IP, might run into anti-trust issues.

No, it would only be a anti-trust situation if they refused to licence the technology to anyone, which is not the case.
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