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Making Sense of Snow versus Win7

Poll Results: How many years behind Snow Leopard is Windows 7?

 
  • 62% (10)
    0-2 years behind the curve
  • 18% (3)
    2-4 years behind SL
  • 6% (1)
    4-6 years behind SL
  • 0% (0)
    6-8 years behind SL
  • 0% (0)
    8-10 years behind SL
  • 12% (2)
    10+ it is so behind it is impossible to quantify
16 Total Votes  
post #1 of 25
Thread Starter 
People continuously say that Windows 7 (just out) is pretty good. But that, of course, is because their standard is Windows Vista. But how does Windows 7 stack up against the 1000-pound technological gorilla, Snow Leopard?

The question is this: how many years behind Snow Leopard is Windows 7?
post #2 of 25
Close enough for most traditional windows users now. What's the point of these polls exactly?
post #3 of 25
Win 7 isn't 'behind' at all. Both are roughly equal.

It comes down to user preference. What platform do you prefer to use?
post #4 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by backtomac View Post

Win 7 isn't 'behind' at all. Both are roughly equal.

I'm not sure that's accurate. Do Win 7 & .Net/C# offer anything like Grand Central Dispatch (as offered by OS X and Cocoa/Objective-C 2)?

I'm pretty sure they don't have OpenCL, and their 32 bit to 64 bit transition is not implemented anywhere near as elegantly.

From a technical perspective Win 7 is definitely behind the curve, but not massively so. I voted 0 - 2 years.
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post #5 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. H View Post

I'm not sure that's accurate. Do Win 7 & .Net/C# offer anything like Grand Central Dispatch (as offered by OS X and Cocoa/Objective-C 2)?

I'm pretty sure they don't have OpenCL, and their 32 bit to 64 bit transition is not implemented anywhere near as elegantly.

From a technical perspective Win 7 is definitely behind the curve, but not massively so. I voted 0 - 2 years.

Windows has thread pooling. I'm not sure its as elegant a solution as GCD but windows is capable of utilizing multi core processors.

BTW GCD and OCL are open sourced so Windows can adopt them whenever they please. Whether they will or not.....
post #6 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by backtomac View Post

windows is capable of utilizing multi core processors.

Sure, both OS X and Windows have been capable of utilising multi-core processors for a long time. The point of GCD is that it makes it easier for programmers to write multi-processor applications.

Quote:
Originally Posted by backtomac View Post

BTW GCD and OCL are open sourced so Windows can adopt them whenever they please. Whether they will or not.....

Indeed, but at the moment it doesn't have them so: behind the curve.
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post #7 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by buceta View Post

People continuously say that Windows 7 (just out) is pretty good.

That's not what I read at all! For a 'next generation operating system' touted to be a massive improvement on Vista and presented as the state-of-the-art in OSs Win7 is severely dissappointing in speed benchmark tests against its brethren: XP and Vista:

Win7 is actually slower than Vista in most tests!



Infoworld.com: Windows 7 on multicore: How much faster?

So it looks like Snow Leopard would probably totally smoke Win7 in a showdown on equal terms on speed: a benchmark test. But as Iraq, Somalia, and Afghanistan have painfully demonstrated: it is not wise to humiliate your opponent. So I don't think a benchmark test like that should be expected from the Apple camp. It'll probably take an 'independent' agent, like a rogue publication, to screw up the 'relationship' with M$...
post #8 of 25
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rokcet Scientist View Post

That's not what I read at all! For a 'next generation operating system' touted to be a massive improvement on Vista and presented as the state-of-the-art in OSs Win7 is severely dissappointing in speed benchmark tests against its brethren: XP and Vista:

Win7 is actually slower than Vista in most tests!



Infoworld.com: Windows 7 on multicore: How much faster?

So it looks like Snow Leopard would probably totally smoke Win7 in a showdown on equal terms on speed: a benchmark test. But as Iraq, Somalia, and Afghanistan have painfully demonstrated: it is not wise to humiliate your opponent. So I don't think a benchmark test like that should be expected from the Apple camp. It'll probably take an 'independent' agent, like a rogue publication, to screw up the 'relationship' with M$...

Given that S Leopard smokes XP, as in many times faster, I would say the whole exercise of trying to compare them ridiculous.
post #9 of 25
Thread Starter 
Snow Leopard Technological Breakthroughs:
64 bit kernel and applications
grand central dispatch
open CL
low level virtual machine
50-70% speed boosts across the board
seamless networking
cocoa finder
smaller disk footprint
core location
seamless network printing
more powerful developer tools
even better application integration
xgrid
etc

Windows 7 Technological Breakthroughs:
It doesn't suck ass like Vista

Congratulations Microsoft, you did it!!!
post #10 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by buceta View Post

Snow Leopard Technological Breakthroughs:


Quote:
Originally Posted by buceta View Post

64 bit kernel and applications

Technological breakthrough? 64 bit Windows XP came out in 2005.

The real breakthrough is shipping a 32 bit and 64 bit OS in one (with Windows you must install one or the other), that the 32 bit kernel can run 64 bit applications and that the 64 bit kernel can run 32 bit applications.

Quote:
Originally Posted by buceta View Post

grand central dispatch
open CL
low level virtual machine

At least you got some things right.

Quote:
Originally Posted by buceta View Post

50-70% speed boosts across the board

Yeah, right. Source?

Quote:
Originally Posted by buceta View Post

seamless networking

What does this even mean?

Quote:
Originally Posted by buceta View Post

cocoa finder

Yeah, it took Apple about a decade to FTFF. Quite the breakthrough

Quote:
Originally Posted by buceta View Post

more powerful developer tools

Microsoft's developer tools have been better than Apple's for a long time. Apple are just about catching up.
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post #11 of 25
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. H View Post

Technological breakthrough? 64 bit Windows XP came out in 2005.

The real breakthrough is shipping a 32 bit and 64 bit OS in one (with Windows you must install one or the other), that the 32 bit kernel can run 64 bit applications and that the 64 bit kernel can run 32 bit applications.



At least you got some things right.



Yeah, right. Source?



What does this even mean?



Yeah, it took Apple about a decade to FTFF. Quite the breakthrough



Microsoft's developer tools have been better than Apple's for a long time. Apple are just about catching up.

Incorrect.
post #12 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by buceta View Post

Incorrect.

I am bowled over by your reasoning. Well argued.
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post #13 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by buceta View Post

Incorrect.

Put the kool aid down. You've had too much.
post #14 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. H View Post

Technological breakthrough? 64 bit Windows XP came out in 2005.

No: in 2002...

But nobody knew what to do with it. Back then it was a solution looking for a problem.
post #15 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rokcet Scientist View Post

No: in 2002...

But nobody knew what to do with it. Back then it was a solution looking for a problem.

Indeed. The 2002 version was for the car-crash that was the insanely priced and dreadful performance-per-watt itanium processor. The 2005 version I was talking about was the x86-64 version. But yeah, I guess the platform doesn't matter, the one that came out in 2002 was a top-to-bottom 64-bit OS.
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post #16 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by backtomac View Post

Windows has thread pooling. I'm not sure its as elegant a solution as GCD but windows is capable of utilizing multi core processors.

.NET thread pools are not at the OS level. The GCD thread pool is in a background daemon rather than your app. This allows better system level optimization of the pools rather than each app trying to figure out good pool sizes, etc. .NET has closures since .NET 2.0 and anonymous methods in C#.
post #17 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post

.NET thread pools are not at the OS level. The GCD thread pool is in a background daemon rather than your app. This allows better system level optimization of the pools rather than each app trying to figure out good pool sizes, etc. .NET has closures since .NET 2.0 and anonymous methods in C#.

There's a pretty vigorous debate at Ars amongst programmers as to whether GCD is that much better than windows at programming apps to utilize multi-core cpus (more than 2 cores). I'm not a programmer so I can't say which argument holds the most merit. GCD seems more elegant and sophisticated to me looking in from the outside.
post #18 of 25
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by backtomac View Post

There's a pretty vigorous debate at Ars amongst programmers as to whether GCD is that much better than windows at programming apps to utilize multi-core cpus (more than 2 cores). I'm not a programmer so I can't say which argument holds the most merit. GCD seems more elegant and sophisticated to me looking in from the outside.

Well if snow leopard does not have much better technology then how come my mac is now much much faster than with Leopard?
post #19 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by buceta View Post

Well if snow leopard does not have much better technology then how come my mac is now much much faster than with Leopard?

It does have better technology than Leopard and I think that SL is better than Leopard.

But wasn't the original comparison between SL and Win 7 (the title of the thread is'Making Sense of Snow versus Win7')? Those are roughly equal IMO. I still would much rather work with Macs and I am switching my office over to Macs. But Win 7 doesn't look bad at all.

In fact I agree with Vinea, Vista isn't that bad. I bought my parents an inexpensive machine with Vista and they've had no problems at all. No BSDs or hardware issues. Its still a confusing mess for me to work with, but it is stable.
post #20 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by buceta View Post

Well if snow leopard does not have much better technology then how come my mac is now much much faster than with Leopard?

Getting rid of the 800lbs Gorilla that was the PowerPC. Snow Leopard got rid of the junk that isn't needed going forward. Could also be perception.
post #21 of 25
I thought Microsoft already has the following even before Snow Leopard and possibly Leopard starting with Windows Vista:? Unfortunately, Microsoft is very very BAD at marketing and Apple is a master.

1. Ability to switch graphic cards on the fly without logging off
2. Ability to use homogeneous (Windows Vista/7) and heterogeneous (Windows 7 only) graphic cards
3. Concurrency Runtime for .NET 2.0
4. Native concurrency runtime for C++
5. Closure (block) for .NET and C++
6. Removal of dispatcher spin lock on Windows 7 kernel to allow scaling to 256 processor cores
7. Implementation of ASLR that 10.6 is still behind
8. DirectX 11 (Direct3D11) vs. OpenGL 3.0?
9. It can run thousands of different combination of hardware even on a Pentium II 266MHz (although you can sleep through the installation)

You can find many things SL is behind Windows 7 and the converse is true.
post #22 of 25
Ars Technica has quite an in-depth and somewhat scathing review of Windows 7 that is attracting a lot of heated debate from the Windows fanboys, and some Mac fans too!

http://arstechnica.com/microsoft/rev...the-review.ars

I just noticed that you have to buy the most expensive Ultimate version to even get access to language packs!!! In other words, if you buy an English version, you can't make it run in French or perhaps even different variants of English?
post #23 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by s.metcalf View Post

I just noticed that you have to buy the most expensive Ultimate version to even get access to language packs!!! In other words, if you buy an English version, you can't make it run in French or perhaps even different variants of English?

Standard M$ m.o.: squeezing every last buck out of their users. In counterpoint to the real state-of-the-art OS, which sells for US$ 29, and contains all language packs...
post #24 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rokcet Scientist View Post

Standard M$ m.o.: squeezing every last buck out of their users. In counterpoint to the real state-of-the-art OS, which sells for US$ 29, and contains all language packs...

Right, and in order to run OS X on the state-of-the-art computer, you would need a Mac Pro. I don't understand why people keep comparing the cost of Windows vs. OS X. Microsoft makes software and Apple makes hardware where OS X is really a freebie. Microsoft has different versions of Windows just like Apple has different line-up of Mac. This is very basic economy - features segmentation for the targetted market.
post #25 of 25
Windows 7 almost = Leopard. In fact I'd say it's about equal to where Leopard was a year ago.

Windows 7 is Vista R2. Ars Technica nails it.
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