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Apple rumored to disable Atom support with Mac OS X 10.6.2 - Page 6

post #201 of 226
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post

No, I don't think it's a non sequitur at all. You clearly understand that it is an upgrade product, yet engage in a quibble about whether it says it here or there and what does it really mean.

Yes, you can install it on a clean hard drive, because it's sold with the understanding that you have already purchased a Mac so have a right to install the upgrade and because Apple chooses not to make it's user's lives more complicated than necessary.

You know you're in the wrong, ethically and legally, so please don't pretend to innocence.

You may be right, but quite honestly, if you already own a Mac, I don't think its a big deal whether or not you install it on a netbook. For most of these installations, you have to start with a working copy of OS X just to setup the installer disk. I own a Dell Mini 10v and have successfully hackintoshed it. While it seems I may have to do a bit more work to keep it up to date, I like to think of it as a fun project to experiment with. I already own one mac, and plan on upgrading to a new Macbook Pro and Mac Mini Server within the coming months, not to mention owning Final Cut Express and other Apple software. Trust me, they get my business.

Stealing is stealing, there's no argument around that. But frankly, using OS X on a netbook is more about bending the rules than committing a serious crime.
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post #202 of 226
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob55 View Post

Well, since I don't travel a lot, don't have a long commute and don't have any kids, I haven't had any need for ripping DVDs. I've been buying Blu-rays in favor of their DVD counterparts and many come with digital copies, but I haven't watched or used any of them yet. All that said, I guess one could rationalize ripping a DVD under "fair use" if it would still be for private personal use but that's a grey area. The one thing I will say is that Hollywood is insane if they think people will buy multiple copies of the same title simply to be able to use it on a home media server or equivalent. And, given what they're doing with many Blu-ray titles, I don't think they expect you to. If every movie came with a digital copy, then I think there would be a lot less call for ripping your own DVDs.

According to Fair Use, it is legal to possess a copy of your media for personal use. However, it is illegal to break the encryption of the DVD to obtain such a copy.

Under the DMCA exemptions, it is legal to unlock your mobile phone to make it carrier independent. However, it is illegal to jailbreak an iPhone - the process required to unlock it.

To me, it would follow that Fair Use would allow one to use OS X in any non-infringing way, like ripping a DVD or unlocking an iPhone. However, to do so, one would have to break Apple's EULA.

The purpose of Fair Use is to protect end-users from overreaching copyright zealots, not to catch people in the technicality of "illegally" breaking a DVD encryption, or "illegally" jailbreaking an iPhone, or "illegally" breaking Apple's EULA.
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post #203 of 226
Quote:
Originally Posted by lfmorrison View Post

In fact, according to US copyright law, 17 USC 117, copies made as an essential step in running a piece of software on a computer system, are specifically mentioned as not being violations. Which is to say, if you have legal possession of a copy of a piece of software, where a 'copy' can be interpreted as a physical embodiment such as a CD or DVD, then installing that software, even without the copyright holder's consent, does not constitute copyright infringement, if such installation is an essential step in running the software.

If legal possession of the a physical embodiment is all that it takes to be allowed to do whatever you want with the software then presumably that means it's ok to install an upgrade even if you never bought the full version, to buy some software and install it on your machine then give away the disks to someone who can legally install and use it on their machine, or buy a cheap academic version of some software and ignore the condition that says it can only be used for non-commercial purposes? If not, why not, by your reasoning?
post #204 of 226
The atom is an abomination. Apple is doing everyone a favour be disabling great software to run on crapware cpus...
post #205 of 226
Quote:
Originally Posted by steveH View Post

"Upgrade" appears nowhere on the package. I have installed it on two Macs here as an upgrade from 10.5, and on two others on freshly-formatted drives (after backing them up with Time Machine).

Apple have sold upgrade disks in the past. This is not one of them.

Whether a manufacturer finds its more convenient to deliver an upgrade as an incremental set of changes or as a full copy of all the files you need is neither here nor there, it's just a boring implementation detail.

It clearly says you can only install Mac OS X on Apple branded hardware. All Apple branded hardware (not counting peripherals!) come with Mac OS X pre-installed. By any definition therefore, it's an upgrade - you're only allowed to install it on systems for which you already have a Mac OS X license. (It doesn't matter if you wiped the disk first and are doing a clean install, the key thing is that you already have a license to use Mac OS X because it came with the hardware.)
post #206 of 226
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mazda 3s View Post

I don't follow your logic. These people weren't going to buy a Mac anyway because they are priced too high. So if anything, Apple is still making out OK if these people are using a retail copy of Leopard or Snow Leopard that they purchased to do a Hackintosh mod.

So would Apple rather:

1) Not get ANY money whatsoever from those looking for OS X on a budget?
2) Get a bit of extra money from those that buy OS X and install it themselves on a netbook?
3) Do it the Apple way, piss off a small subset of the tinkerer base, and not get any money whatsoever from it?

what makes you think people hacking a dell mini 9 are not going to buy a mac ? I have 3 macs, 2 imacs and a macbook pro.

The dell mini 9 is samall and is great to have on my kitchen table for reading email and the news while I have coffee and share toast with my doggies. It doe not take much space and is also ideal for looking something up while doing the crosswords.

And I happen to prefer running Mac OS on it. I only wished Apple would have one. It would be a great addition and more useful to me than a tablet..
post #207 of 226
Quote:
Originally Posted by trboyden View Post

Again, Copyright covers the actual work of authorship and not what you do with it personally.

Agreed, if you buy a copyrighted product you can do whatever you want with it. You can turn the Mac OS X installation DVDs into Christmas tree decorations. You can use them as frisbees. You can put them into your home entertainment system and watch it say "Not a valid disc" on screen. You just can't COPY it, ie. install it onto your computer's hard disk, unless you have a license that says you can.
post #208 of 226
Quote:
Originally Posted by myapplelove View Post

The atom is an abomination. Apple is doing everyone a favour be disabling great software to run on crapware cpus...

Oh come now, they're not that bad. Sure, I wouldn't try something like edit video on a netbook, but for what it does, its actually a neat little processor. Runs Snow Leopard just fine, Windows 7 is great, and with the exception of HD video (which begs the question why anyone would watch HD on a 1024x600 screen), it plays my media perfectly.

Hey, you get what you pay for. I'm not expecting stellar performance with a computer that can typically cost less than $300. Frankly, I'm actually surprised that this processor can do what it does, given all the horror stories behind it.
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post #209 of 226
Quote:
Originally Posted by extremeskater View Post

In that case they should disable it from running on the Macbook Air.

The MBA has a Penryn SFF ULV C2D with 6MB L2 and 1066MHz bus. That is as good as it gets with such a small chip. Atom cant even come close to that performance.
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post #210 of 226
I know the Internet tar & feather brigade is out in full force over this but has anyone considered Apple is planning to use a feature the Atom does not support? To the best of my knowledge the most likely candidate for that would be Vanderpool / Intel VT. All Intel Macs support it including the 32Bit CD models. The Atom does not. Even if Apple isn't directly using Vanderpool they may have some reason for the kernel to do some checking on it. Perhaps related to third party applications such as VMWare which do make use of Vanderpool -- an application which has been troublesome for some people using 64Bit kernels. Sounds plausible to me that Apple may have patched their code and simply didn't handle the condition that a CPU might be 64Bit AND lack Vanderpool. The Atom is the only modern Intel CPU that would fall into that category. It's entirely possible it was intentional but I tend to doubt it. Apple had 4 years to engineer some DRM to fight Hackintosh users. They know a simple CPU detection scheme isn't going to stop anyone.

(The only Intel CPU based product Apple sells that does not support Vanderpool is the Apple TV (Pentium M CPU) however it still runs 10.4.x )
post #211 of 226
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quadra 610 View Post

The community doesn't even matter, apart from its continued (and unfettered) existence making Apple look hypocritical when going after Psystar.

Not surprising that at some point Apple would in principle send out a clear message to the hackintosh community as well. Apple is not going after them legally, but simply making it a bit harder for them on a particular unsupported platform.

Hardly "unfettered" as Apple has issues take down notices on how to do this on major sites. There is only so much Apple (or any company) can do to limit installation of their OS on non-Apple hardware. I think they are focusing on Psystar because they want a legal decision backing there future actions.

That Psystar behaves like a cross between a loose cannon and loose screw makes it being the least likely being a Pyrrhic victory for Apple.
post #212 of 226
Quote:
Originally Posted by SinisterJoe View Post

I know the Internet tar & feather brigade is out in full force over this but has anyone considered Apple is planning to use a feature the Atom does not support? To the best of my knowledge the most likely candidate for that would be Vanderpool / Intel VT. All Intel Macs support it including the 32Bit CD models. The Atom does not. Even if Apple isn't directly using Vanderpool they may have some reason for the kernel to do some checking on it. Perhaps related to third party applications such as VMWare which do make use of Vanderpool -- an application which has been troublesome for some people using 64Bit kernels. Sounds plausible to me that Apple may have patched their code and simply didn't handle the condition that a CPU might be 64Bit AND lack Vanderpool. The Atom is the only modern Intel CPU that would fall into that category. It's entirely possible it was intentional but I tend to doubt it. Apple had 4 years to engineer some DRM to fight Hackintosh users. They know a simple CPU detection scheme isn't going to stop anyone.

(The only Intel CPU based product Apple sells that does not support Vanderpool is the Apple TV (Pentium M CPU) however it still runs 10.4.x )

Excellent post!
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post #213 of 226
Quote:
Originally Posted by trboyden View Post

You keep confusing what Copyright covers vs. what the EULA dictates - they are two distinct documents each providing a different set of rights.

Copyright clearly says you can make a copy of a copyrighted work for personal use and that copyright does not extend to methods of operation. Thus violating the EULAs clause that it can only be operated on Apple hardware is not a violation that can be sought under Copyright law. However, the EULA violation can be sought under civil contract law - but Apple is less likely to succeed there given the personal use rights granted by Copyright law.

Not if as Apple claimed in it Psystar back on November 27, 2008 that is uses DMCA protect methods to enforce it EULA. Even worse the Blizzard vs. MDY (Glider) case gives Apple the precedent to slam Psystar into the ground--which I hope they do in the style of Godzilla vs Bambi with Psystar in the role of Bambi.
post #214 of 226
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maximara View Post

Not if as Apple claimed in it Psystar back on November 27, 2008 that is uses DMCA protect methods to enforce it EULA. Even worse the Blizzard vs. MDY (Glider) case gives Apple the precedent to slam Psystar into the ground--which I hope they do in the style of Godzilla vs Bambi with Psystar in the role of Bambi.

Me too. Free market for the win!
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post #215 of 226
All this concern about the fine print of the license addresses the what -- 200? -- Hackintosh users today. I say, "fine print" because I, for one, licensed the five-user version of the upgrade; I may have licensed the right to install on five machines that I own. Just saying; IANAL and am not interested in legalistic interpretations.

Rather, Apple, <b>by this report</b> by the way, a clear step down from "news," is mooting the question for everybody else. We may question the wisdom of Apple's preventing people from installing the OS on some non-Apple machines, but TS: apparently, they're going to do it, and 10.6.1 is the end of the line for OSX on the Dell Mini 9's etc. Nobody yet, anyway, is challenging Apple's right to design the OS the way that it sees fit.

Some people are still happy with OS 9. Every now and then, I fire up my once-beloved Mac 2400c, a 4.4 lb, 10" screen ultra-portable WAAAY ahead of its time, that I hacked a 603PPC chip into. So 10.6.1 could function well enough for the economic lifetime of an Acorn netbook. But how many people will really work that way?

Just like Google and Craigslist have put the final nails into many newspapers' coffins while inventing some wonderful new services, Apple is moving on. A moment of silence to recognize the cleverness of the Hackintoshers, please!

OK, folks, nothing to see here any more. Time to move along.
post #216 of 226
Quote:
Originally Posted by kotatsu View Post

I see Netbooks everywhere. Apple are missing a trick by not selling an official OSX Atom based netbook.

I doubt 90% of the people reading this think this statement has any sense. Netbooks are bottom of the barrel, "profitable if lucky", reactive plays that may gain the players a little market share, but not much share value. Look at their entire product line and you'll see even the loss leaders have decent returns (with the exception maybe of iTunes content, which is probably a true loss leader.

There not missing anything but a waste of resources. I hope that all the rumors pan out and we do see a category breaker that raises the bar and once and for all silences you guys who think Apple "needs" a netbook. Even without the iTablet if it exists, they don't need a netbook--at least not until they do it their own way, with added value, top quality materials and build with something new brought to the table.

Get out from under your rock.
post #217 of 226
Good! Crack down on the thieves!

I'd love for Apple to switch away from x86, but I don't think that'll happen anytime soon.

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post #218 of 226
Quote:
Originally Posted by yuusharo View Post

You may be right, but quite honestly, if you already own a Mac, I don't think its a big deal whether or not you install it on a netbook. For most of these installations, you have to start with a working copy of OS X just to setup the installer disk. I own a Dell Mini 10v and have successfully hackintoshed it. While it seems I may have to do a bit more work to keep it up to date, I like to think of it as a fun project to experiment with. I already own one mac, and plan on upgrading to a new Macbook Pro and Mac Mini Server within the coming months, not to mention owning Final Cut Express and other Apple software. Trust me, they get my business.

Stealing is stealing, there's no argument around that. But frankly, using OS X on a netbook is more about bending the rules than committing a serious crime.

``Nobody cares and really, who does it hurt?''

``Who knew she was under age? She approached me officer. If anyone is the victim me it's me officer. Look at her. She took advantage of me. How was I to know she was lying? And besides, in some countries it's a compliment.''

Sorry, but both of my statements show the warped reality people live in to rationalize their motivations in life.
post #219 of 226
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clive At Five View Post

According to Fair Use, it is legal to possess a copy of your media for personal use. However, it is illegal to break the encryption of the DVD to obtain such a copy.

Actually it's not consider fair use to make an "exact" copy for your personal use. An "exact" copy is only for backing up your disc. In case your disc becomes unreadable. (Like computer software.) Fair use does allow for you to convert to another media like to make a cassette tape of your albums (CD or vinyl) to play on a cassette player and use both at the same time. Or an MP3 for your computer or MP3 player. It really doesn't allow you to burn an "exact" copy (or copies) of your CD on to another CD and use all of them at the same time. But you can burn a mix CD from songs from different albums.

Same with DVD's. Fair use allow you to record using the analog hole without breaking encryption. (Though you may have to deal with marcovision.) So that you can get a VSH or Beta copy to play on your video tape machine. But you would not have an "exact" copy. Even if you use it to burn back to DVD. In order to get an "exact" copy you have to break the encryption. Which mean that you can not legally back up your DVD's on to disc or computer.

But really, the reason it's illegal to break encryption is to give the Studios more leverage when they catch people pirating to make money. It's not really enforced when it comes to the average home users. It makes it more difficult to do.

Of course I'm referring to US Copyright Laws. I heard that in countries like Australia, you can't even legally copy a CD on to your computer HD. Let alone make another disc.

Quote:
Under the DMCA exemptions, it is legal to unlock your mobile phone to make it carrier independent. However, it is illegal to jailbreak an iPhone - the process required to unlock it.

Is is not illegal to jailbreak your iPhone. The key word word being "your". What's illegal is you jailbreaking other peoples iPhone for a business. You can sell the unlock code so that the owner can legally jailbreak (unlock) his own iPhone. (or any phone.) But no where does it state that Apple or ATT must supply the unlock code. Ever. And I can see why. If Apple were to sanction an unlock iPhone by giving away the unlock code, then they might also have to support it with their all their updates and apps. Across al the various carriers.

Quote:
To me, it would follow that Fair Use would allow one to use OS X in any non-infringing way, like ripping a DVD or unlocking an iPhone. However, to do so, one would have to break Apple's EULA.

And Apple doesn't really care about any individual spending the time to hack OSX on to a Dell or Sony. But Apple don't have to make it easy for them. You see, the easier it is to hack OSX on to a netbook, the more likely people are to buy a Dell or Sony to run OSX. Why should Apple help Dell or Sony sell netbooks?

Quote:
The purpose of Fair Use is to protect end-users from overreaching copyright zealots, not to catch people in the technicality of "illegally" breaking a DVD encryption, or "illegally" jailbreaking an iPhone, or "illegally" breaking Apple's EULA.

Unfortunately, we see fair use being eroded for the average consumer because of people like Psystar. Not because of copyright zealots.
post #220 of 226
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdriftmeyer View Post

``Nobody cares and really, who does it hurt?''

``Who knew she was under age? She approached me officer. If anyone is the victim me it's me officer. Look at her. She took advantage of me. How was I to know she was lying? And besides, in some countries it's a compliment.''

Sorry, but both of my statements show the warped reality people live in to rationalize their motivations in life.

....what the hell do you do for a living, dude? Because I think its stressing you to the point of insanity. At least make a proper context.

This one is a bad example, but at least closer to my point. You buy a DVD of your favorite movie. According to the license of that disk, you are entitled to watch that movie on any compatible device that you own, but you are not allowed to create a copy for any reason (including backup and personal use), nor are you allowed to watch that movie on another device (like an iPhone). Now, I bought the movie - I own it. Why shouldn't I be allowed to rip it and watch it on any device I own as well?

Again, not the greatest example, but still hits a point. I own Apple hardware. I own Apple software. Not only do they get a good $20 a month from me on iTunes, but they're also going to get at least $2k between a new notebook and Mini server from me soon. Between the iPhone and all the Apple software I purchased, what exactly is the big problem with me running a little project by installing OS X on a Mini netbook as a hobby?
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post #221 of 226
I guess I'll keep my Dell Mini 9 on Windows 7 then. It's funny. I bought that computer for $199 with Ubuntu. Installed the free Windows 7 Release Candidate and it works great. I needed a "real" Windows machine for a specific project. After it is over, I had intended to Hackintosh the mini9. Oh well, I guess. Hopefully this means that Apple has something in the works to occupy this niche in the tech ecology.
post #222 of 226
So the wildly unpopular netbooks are suddenly popular enough to be targeted by Apple.

It sucks, but it makes sense. If an ultraportable Apple product is on it's way, cutting off new purchases of netbooks for hackintosh purposes is a good decision. It was never something that would last, nor did it have even tacid approval from Apple.
post #223 of 226
Quote:
Originally Posted by extremeskater View Post

It not alot of performance considering the lowest model is six times the price of a netbook.

What is the point? Its larger than a netbook. The display is bright LED backlit and uses a high-end LCD. The case is milled aluminium. The CPU is considerably faster than Atom and costs 10x the price of an Atom according to Intels price list.

Try comparing it to the other ultra-light 13 notebooks on the market. The MBA is not an netbook!
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post #224 of 226
Quote:
Originally Posted by ltcommander.data View Post

Not supporting non-Mac OS X installs is one thing and I support going after third parties trying to make money off selling OS X like Psystar, but actively targeting the hackintosh community doesn't seem a good choice.

Right now, Apple can legally restrict what hardware is used with Mac OSX. by not doing something to discourage such illegal systems, they are basically approving by silence. which can bite them in the butt with some laws.

also, they have actually be fairly nice by not going out to the community and slapping a ton of DMCA violations on folks for all the bootloaders, terminal hack instructions etc that are out there. because money changing hands is not required under said laws.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Messiah View Post

That could probably be construed as being anti-competitive?

nope. this issue was addressed in the Psystar case. they tried to argue the existence of a Macintosh Market. they lost. the market is Personal Computer Systems. of which Apple is a small piece. and because of the small size they can legally tie hardware and software and there's no market abuse

Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post

Not yet, that I am aware of, but PearC and Psystar are unambiguously in violation of copyright law, since the EULA doesn't even apply to them -- i.e., since they are not end-users, they have no license whatsoever for what they are doing, not even one with possibly contestable points.

Psystar is violating copyright so the EULA issue is actually a bit moot for them

as for PearC, German laws as of about a year ago said that you can not enforce an EULA that can not be read prior to money changing hands. Since you had to buy the disk to open the box and put in the disk to see the terms, Apple couldn't enforce the EULA in Germany. This is what PearC was using as a 'we can do what we want' defense. HOWEVER, since that time, I believe that Apple put the EULA on the website and the laws in Germany, if I recall correctly, didn't say that the EULA had to be on the box. just available. so Apple could now be in the right on that issue. so long as the EULA doesn't go against any legally protected rights of the consumer. which gets a tad interesting. Because the US and Germany are both part of the Berne treaty. and that treaty states that member countries will grant their copyright protections to any work by another country that is published in a treaty country. So one has to examine if the sale of a software is the same as publishing and what protections goes Germany give to software. it is possible that German law does not allow for the restriction of hardware the way that the US laws currently do. so there's nothing Apple can do at this point.

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post #225 of 226
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

What is the point? Its larger than a netbook. The display is bright LED backlit and uses a high-end LCD. The case is milled aluminium. The CPU is considerably faster than Atom and costs 10x the price of an Atom according to Intels price list.

Try comparing it to the other ultra-light 13 notebooks on the market. The MBA is not an netbook!

An LED backlight shouldn't be a selling point, my netbook has one of those (and it is a lot better than the CCFL in my laptop), but it's not like Apple has some sort of exclusive use to LEDs, or that it has to be at a certain price point.

I think his point is however, what exactly kind of tasks do you plan on doing with the MBA's CPU, like audio/video/photo editing, or mundane tasks like e-mail and web browsing? The Atom can do all that too, but it's just slow (relatively), designed for low-power consumption and cheap. I can't complain about the size of the devices it power; seriously, most netbooks are only around 3 pounds and they're small. (the 11.6" are tweeners, but have better CPU's and GPU's).

If I want power, I'll grab something else, but it wouldn't be a MBA either.
post #226 of 226
Quote:
Originally Posted by guinness View Post

An LED backlight shouldn't be a selling point, my netbook has one of those (and it is a lot better than the CCFL in my laptop), but it's not like Apple has some sort of exclusive use to LEDs, or that it has to be at a certain price point.

LED backlights have technical capabilities that CCFLs do not, so yes, they should be a selling point.

Quote:
I think his point is however, what exactly kind of tasks do you plan on doing with the MBA's CPU, like audio/video/photo editing, or mundane tasks like e-mail and web browsing? The Atom can do all that too, but it's just slow (relatively), designed for low-power consumption and cheap. I can't complain about the size of the devices it power; seriously, most netbooks are only around 3 pounds and they're small. (the 11.6" are tweeners, but have better CPU's and GPU's).

So the only two options are too fast or too slow? A 10 netbook display and keybaord and trackpad is not a replacement for a notebook grade keyboard, trackpad and 13 display. The MBA is also considerably faster than what is found in netbooks. It can even run a 30 display. It might not suit your needs, and it certainly doesnt suit my needs, but it suits other peoples needs. Even people I know. If I had a desktop computer and didnt travel so much, Id get one, but I am always on the move so more powerful notebook as my only machine is what I must have. That does not mean I cant see how others could find the MBA, Adamo, X3100, Envy and other ultra-light notebooks as the ideal travel machines.

Quote:
If I want power, I'll grab something else, but it wouldn't be a MBA either.

That is fine. No one machine can fit everyones needs. If its such a bad solution, why are the SFF ULV getting more-and-more play if they arent worth it additional performance that is gained over Atom with C2D? Even netbooks are getting C2Ds now, but they cost a lot more than $300.
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