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Is there any form of Government HealthCare you could get behind?

Poll Results: What would you Consider an acceptable reform of Health Care?

 
  • 60% (15)
    Full Gov't health care with public option
  • 0% (0)
    Full Gov't health care no public option
  • 4% (1)
    Gov't care only for low income who cannot afford their own plan
  • 0% (0)
    A gov't instituted health exchange or Co-op.
  • 4% (1)
    Gov't vouchers or tax breaks to constituents for purchase of health insurance.
  • 12% (3)
    One of the above with tort reform and follow through on medicare savings.
  • 4% (1)
    Legislation on Tort reform and follow through on medicare savings only.
  • 16% (4)
    Close it all down for Gov't involvment and let the free market work.
  • 0% (0)
    Leave it alone, things are fine as is.
  • 0% (0)
    My option is not up here! (Please explain.)
25 Total Votes  
post #1 of 383
Thread Starter 
There have been a lot of threads lately on the Health Care debate, public option, no public option, who is getting what hey want, can we afford it, and is it constitutional or not. This is a simple thread, what options can you get behind and which ones go too far?
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #2 of 383
Americans overuse healthcare for a plethora of nihilistic reasons -- this is the key, but hardly the only problem; until ANY reform addresses this they are simply throwing gasoline on the fire.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #3 of 383
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmz View Post

Americans overuse healthcare for a plethora of nihilistic reasons -- this is the key, but hardly the only problem; until ANY reform addresses this they are simply throwing gasoline on the fire.

US residents do not see their doctors enough, this has increased cost over other countries (i.e. Japan) and has reduced life expectancy (US 78 - Japan 83).

Reason: co-pay, rising insurance rates and no socialized medicine.
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yes I want oil genocide.
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post #4 of 383
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wormhole View Post

US residents do not see their doctors enough,

Based on what criteria?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Wormhole View Post

this has increased cost over other countries (i.e. Japan) and has reduced life expectancy (US 78 - Japan 83).

Reason: co-pay, rising insurance rates and no socialized medicine.

Do you have evidence to support these claims?
post #5 of 383
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wormhole View Post

US residents do not see their doctors enough, this has increased cost over other countries (i.e. Japan) and has reduced life expectancy (US 78 - Japan 83).

Reason: co-pay, rising insurance rates and no socialized medicine.

No, obesity-related costs alone make my case for me. Add to that the overuse of healthcare for pregnancy -- for completely selfish/narcissistic/nihilistic reasons -- which has lead to our having the second worst newborn death rate in the developed world.

Ohhhhh, but we've just got to have more, and it's got to be "free" -- no matter how many babies have to die -- or how many people rake prozac so they don't have to deal with their problems -- or how many people get their lipitor so they can be fat and eat their factory farmed fast food -- or how many parents get ritalin so they so don't have to bother with parenting.


More. More. More. And WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!! I want it FREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!! 'cause The Man has got me down!!

What a joke.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #6 of 383
Nevermind.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #7 of 383
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmz View Post

Americans overuse healthcare for a plethora of nihilistic reasons -- this is the key, but hardly the only problem; until ANY reform addresses this they are simply throwing gasoline on the fire.

I've heard a lot of things said about health care over the years, but never this. Nihilism is the belief that life is without meaning. If more people were nihilistic, we wouldn't have to worry about health care costs at all!
Please don't be insane.
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Please don't be insane.
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post #8 of 383
Quote:
Originally Posted by involuntary_serf View Post

Based on what criteria?




Do you have evidence to support these claims?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...110301143.html
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yes I want oil genocide.
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post #9 of 383
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Millmoss View Post

I've heard a lot of things said about health care over the years, but never this. Nihilism is the belief that life is without meaning. If more people were nihilistic, we wouldn't have to worry about health care costs at all!

Hmmmmmm.....

Vee AH Nihilists!! VEE BELIEVE IN NAHTING!!!!

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #10 of 383
Don't Copy Europe's Mistakes
post #11 of 383
Thread Starter 
I am surprised that more people have not chosen:

One of the above with tort reform and follow through on medicare savings.

It covers all the top options but requires some form of savings as well.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
post #12 of 383
In my mind the whole system is out of whack. Just today my dentist was trying to sell me a crown. That shit costs some money. I'm not buying just now. Because I have to pay the money I'm being a little stingy. Notice no one is complaining about the spiraling costs of crowns these days.

Contrast that with pinched nerve in my neck. Shooting pains in my arm! It's fscked up. Doctors says he could order an MRI. To what end I ask? Well if they find something then I can do injections in my neck or surgery. I'm not doing either so ... skip the MRI. That saved my payer $XXXX. All because I asked a follow up question. Most people are not like me so they get the MRI because they never see the bill or have to pay a good percentage of the cost.

But that's all moot anyway. Most health care is spent on end of life care, were told. What's an extra 6 months worth? I'm sure everyone has a different answer. But that questions is never asked because most people don't see the bill and the payer pays.

Why does the government even care about how much it cost or what % of the GDP it is? What % of the GDP is entertainment? Music, sports, movies, arts, ... does anyone even know or care? The government doesn't care because the government is not paying a part of the entertainment bill. The only reason they care about health care is because they have to pay a part of it. I have a solution for that ...


A broken system not made good by a public option!
post #13 of 383
Well, it's a multifaceted problem -- not doubt. But if people are trying to point to Europe and Japan as examples, I suggest we adopt Japan's eating habits, and Europe's strict educational standards and social norms.

(Oh, and that means we'll all have to START saving our money, too.) The list goes on -- but you'll never hear that from your politicians. Ohhhhhhh no, it's never we who are our own problems.

Just give me my dope and no one gets hurt!


The problem is that ANY system will have to start dealing with the pill fairy doctors and idiot Americans who want medical interventions "just because". Tummy tucks on the same weekend of their scheduled C-Sections.

No doubt tort reform, and HMO's etc., will have to go behind the woodshed as well -- but -- like the financial crisis, no one is talking about cutting back.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #14 of 383
Quote:
Originally Posted by FloorJack View Post

In my mind the whole system is out of whack. Just today my dentist was trying to sell me a crown. That shit costs some money. I'm not buying just now. Because I have to pay the money I'm being a little stingy. Notice no one is complaining about the spiraling costs of crowns these days.

Contrast that with pinched nerve in my neck. Shooting pains in my arm! It's fscked up. Doctors says he could order an MRI. To what end I ask? Well if they find something then I can do injections in my neck or surgery. I'm not doing either so ... skip the MRI. That saved my payer $XXXX. All because I asked a follow up question. Most people are not like me so they get the MRI because they never see the bill or have to pay a good percentage of the cost.

But that's all moot anyway. Most health care is spent on end of life care, were told. What's an extra 6 months worth? I'm sure everyone has a different answer. But that questions is never asked because most people don't see the bill and the payer pays.

Why does the government even care about how much it cost or what % of the GDP it is? What % of the GDP is entertainment? Music, sports, movies, arts, ... does anyone even know or care? The government doesn't care because the government is not paying a part of the entertainment bill. The only reason they care about health care is because they have to pay a part of it. I have a solution for that ...


A broken system not made good by a public option!

You are a martyr. You just saved your insurance $ 120.- for an MRI and rather live with pain, truly noble.
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yes I want oil genocide.
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post #15 of 383
MRIs cost a lot more than $120.
post #16 of 383
Does that make you any less of a martyr?

I had a discussion with an oncologist about whether I really needed regular PET-CT scans or whether a non-nuclear CT scan would suffice. It wasn't so much a matter of the cost, but (as anyone who's had one knows), a PET-CT is much more of an ordeal. He admitted that the PET-CT scan is very unlikely to find anything the CT does not. Doctors always like to have more data, but when you discuss the issues with them frankly, you'll find that they're not always 100% convinced that it does much good to have it. Learn to talk to your doctors; don't avoid care that makes a difference, but ask good and informed questions. Most doctors actually appreciate it.
Please don't be insane.
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Please don't be insane.
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post #17 of 383
I'm not sure I was martyring myself but thanks for following with your own example.

Over use of technology is a huge problem in medicine. Some have called it an device arms race. If you don't have the latest device that's of marginal use then the hospital down the street will. Patients will come in asking for the PET-CT or DaVinci surgery when it's of little use. Oh and after you pay for it you better damn well schedule the patients to use it 'cause you have to pay off the capitol costs. Why do you think proton therapy is so popular for prostate cancer. Not because it's better. Doctors out of an abundance of caution to a desire for more information will order more. When they do this Obama thinks they are being greedy.

If we peal back some of the technology then we are "rationing". If the payer does it they are heartless greedy evil mongers. If the government does it then they are death panels.

But we all told to vote for Obama's non-solution.
post #18 of 383
Quote:
Originally Posted by FloorJack View Post

MRIs cost a lot more than $120.

Not for an insurance company using an in network facility.


1 MRI 346.-
dissallowed 226.-
total 120.-
your pay 0.-
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post #19 of 383
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wormhole View Post

Not for an insurance company using an in network facility.


1 MRI 346.-
dissallowed 226.-
total 120.-
your pay 0.-

Is that the pro fee or the technical fee or both.
post #20 of 383
Quote:
Originally Posted by FloorJack View Post

I'm not sure I was martyring myself but thanks for following with your own example.

Over use of technology is a huge problem in medicine. Some have called it an device arms race. If you don't have the latest device that's of marginal use then the hospital down the street will. Patients will come in asking for the PET-CT or DaVinci surgery when it's of little use. Oh and after you pay for it you better damn well schedule the patients to use it 'cause you have to pay off the capitol costs. Why do you think proton therapy is so popular for prostate cancer. Not because it's better. Doctors out of an abundance of caution to a desire for more information will order more. When they do this Obama thinks they are being greedy.

If we peal back some of the technology then we are "rationing". If the payer does it they are heartless greedy evil mongers. If the government does it then they are death panels.

But we all told to vote for Obama's non-solution.

We're being "told" a lot of things. We're being "told" that the insurance industry can't afford to cover everyone without discriminating against those who already need care, unless everyone is required to buy their products. True or not true? You can ask that question all day long. The answer you get will depend on who you ask.

Make no mistake, health care is already rationed. Some people are in favor of keeping the rationing system the way it is, where we leave a few tens of millions of people out and pretend that it costs nothing to do so. Others recognize that everyone can't have exactly what they want; because if that happens, costs get driven steadily up and many people are squeezed out of the system.

As for martyring yourself, if your dentist says you need a crown, you probably do. I've got about five grand worth of those in my mouth, all paid for out of pocket. Beats having no teeth.
Please don't be insane.
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Please don't be insane.
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post #21 of 383
Quote:
Originally Posted by FloorJack View Post

Is that the pro fee or the technical fee or both.

This is what a bill for your MRI would look like if you have insurance.

You have never had any medical treatment before?

the 346.- is what you would pay if you do not have insurance or if you use an out of network facility. The insurance company has pre negotiated prices with hospitals which are about 70% less than a private patient would pay.
i.e. 5 days hospital 10,000.- (your price)
$ 3,000 insurance company price.
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yes I want oil genocide.
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post #22 of 383
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wormhole View Post

This is what a bill for your MRI would look like if you have insurance.

You have never had any medical treatment before?

the 346.- is what you would pay if you do not have insurance or if you use an out of network facility. The insurance company has pre negotiated prices with hospitals which are about 70% less than a private patient would pay.
i.e. 5 days hospital 10,000.- (your price)
$ 3,000 insurance company price.


Quote:
You have never had any medical treatment before?

Probably not very old. I know I used to be just like that.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #23 of 383
Quote:
Originally Posted by FloorJack View Post

MRIs cost a lot more than $120.

I had one 2 years ago. Because of my hypertension I've lost some of my peripheral vision. The doctor wanted to make sure it wasn't a tumor. It cost me $238.00 with insurance. So not alot more with insurance.

The actual bill was around $2,768.00.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #24 of 383
FInally someone that knows how much an MRI costs.
post #25 of 383
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by FloorJack View Post

FInally someone that knows how much an MRI costs.

http://www.comparemricost.com/

Quote:
What does an average MRI cost?
MRI cost can range between $400 to $3,500 depending upon which MRI procuedure is performed (example: brain mri vs. shoulder mri) and where you have the MRI test performed. The same exact MRI test can vary by hundreds of dollars from testing facility to testing facility. That's why it is important that you shop around to make sure you're getting the best possible price. By spending a little time and shopping around your local hospitals and imaging centers you can save hundreds if not thousands of dollars. MRI costs are broken down into two areas:
\t \tTechnical Fees: this is the cost of the procedure and where there is a potential to save a considerable amount of money. \t
\t \tProfessional Fees: this is the fee associated with having the radiologist interpret the test result.


Man I love Google!
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
post #26 of 383
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

http://www.comparemricost.com/




Man I love Google!

MRIs are done full body or only small areas. In my case I had it done to determine the need for sinus surgery. Luckily I did not need it. It would have costed 23,000.-. Only my head was scanned and only the area of the sinus. The numbers I mentioned reflect my actual bill from "Health Net".
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post #27 of 383
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wormhole View Post

The numbers I mentioned reflect my actual bill from "Health Net".

You have also pointed out one of the main perversities of the existing system. A patient without insurance is typically billed two to three times as much for a procedure as someone with insurance, whether or not the insured patient is covered for it. I wish someone could explain how that makes sense. I also wonder how we can state with any confidence what anything actually costs when the cost structure is subject to such bizarre distortions.
Please don't be insane.
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post #28 of 383

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #29 of 383
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Millmoss View Post

You have also pointed out one of the main perversities of the existing system. A patient without insurance is typically billed two to three times as much for a procedure as someone with insurance, whether or not the insured patient is covered for it. I wish someone could explain how that makes sense. I also wonder how we can state with any confidence what anything actually costs when the cost structure is subject to such bizarre distortions.

Because the payer and providers cut deals on costs and referrals. Do you think Avis Rent a Car pays the same about for a Chevy Impala that you or I would pay at the dealership?

Of course the difference being when you buy a car the price is the main thing you negotiate. Not so with health care. Of course you don't need a new car but you need health care, when you need it.
post #30 of 383
I know they cut "deals." I am seeking the logic behind a hospital (for instance) saying that a procedure that costs them ten grand can be covered with two or three grand in payments from an insurance company -- but not from a consumer. The cost of the procedure doesn't change at all, only what they are prepared to accept for it. This is not a small disparity. The difference is typically huge, and can't be easily explained by "cutting deals." This distortion also makes determining what procedures actually cost extremely difficult.
Please don't be insane.
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post #31 of 383

Actually, I'm almost done listening, and I can't believe that NPR could be this lucid. Two great shows that speak to the heart(s) of this mess.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #32 of 383
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Millmoss View Post

I know they cut "deals." I am seeking the logic behind a hospital (for instance) saying that a procedure that costs them ten grand can be covered with two or three grand in payments from an insurance company -- but not from a consumer. The cost of the procedure doesn't change at all, only what they are prepared to accept for it. This is not a small disparity. The difference is typically huge, and can't be easily explained by "cutting deals." This distortion also makes determining what procedures actually cost extremely difficult.

It may be because not every service pays for itself. There are some charges that are known to not be able to cover the costs of the service. Whereas some others pay out well. It may be that one charge gets a heavy discount but another makes up the difference. So looking at one charge that the payer gets a big discount on is not the whole story.
post #33 of 383
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmz View Post

Actually, I'm almost done listening, and I can't believe that NPR could be this lucid. Two great shows that speak to the heart(s) of this mess.

At the risk of starting a pointless thread digression, this show is not associated with NPR but rather is produced by PRI (Public Radio International). It runs on a variety of outlets, including satellite. Also, NPR (which produces All Things Considered among other new programs) has done a great deal of completely "lucid" reporting on health care issues. In fact, they are nearly the only ones who have, the vast majority of the other "reporting" being mainly a superficial rehash of political talking points.
Please don't be insane.
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post #34 of 383
Quote:
Originally Posted by FloorJack View Post

It may be because not every service pays for itself. There are some charges that are known to not be able to cover the costs of the service. Whereas some others pay out well. It may be that one charge gets a heavy discount but another makes up the difference. So looking at one charge that the payer gets a big discount on is not the whole story.

This distortion goes straight across the board, not just for some services. What it really means is that the poor saps without insurance are subsidizing those who have it.
Please don't be insane.
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post #35 of 383
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Millmoss View Post

This distortion goes straight across the board, not just for some services. What it really means is that the poor saps without insurance are subsidizing those who have it.

To call the current system "free" is crazy.
I have insurance but I am not free to choose my doctor or the hospital I want to go to. I have to go to "in network" facilities or I will be charged a 50% deductible.

We can call this the uninsured tax.

It is possible to negotiate prices if you do not have insurance. Most doctors will give a 15% discount for cash. This however pales in comparison to the 70% discount the insurance company gets.
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post #36 of 383
Sen. Burris Cites Unwritten Constitutional 'Health' Provision to Justify Forcing Americans to Buy Health Insurance: http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/56629

When Asked Where the Constitution Authorizes Congress to Order Americans To Buy Health Insurance, Pelosi Says: 'Are You Serious?': http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/55971
post #37 of 383
Quote:
Originally Posted by involuntary_serf View Post

Sen. Burris Cites Unwritten Constitutional 'Health' Provision to Justify Forcing Americans to Buy Health Insurance: http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/56629

When Asked Where the Constitution Authorizes Congress to Order Americans To Buy Health Insurance, Pelosi Says: 'Are You Serious?': http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/55971

Can they order you to have a social security number or a visa?
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post #38 of 383
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wormhole View Post

Can they order you to have a social security number or a visa?

Can they order you to purchase a home if you have a family? Further can they regulate what size home you can purchase depending on the size of your family?

Questions are fun... \
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #39 of 383
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by involuntary_serf View Post

Sen. Burris Cites Unwritten Constitutional 'Health' Provision to Justify Forcing Americans to Buy Health Insurance: http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/56629

When Asked Where the Constitution Authorizes Congress to Order Americans To Buy Health Insurance, Pelosi Says: 'Are You Serious?': http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/55971

Reading those stories and the quotes in them makes me very, very concerned about who we have "leading" our country.

They are either not reading and following the process fully as displayed in the first quote, or they are not concerned with their responsibilities as they are laid out in the constitution as with Pelosi (The Speaker of the House!)
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #40 of 383
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

Can they order you to purchase a home if you have a family? Further can they regulate what size home you can purchase depending on the size of your family?

Questions are fun... \

Maybe they should regulate the quality of the food you eat and a minimum number of calories a day. A maximum level would be helpful too.
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