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Is there any form of Government HealthCare you could get behind? - Page 4

Poll Results: What would you Consider an acceptable reform of Health Care?

 
  • 60% (15)
    Full Gov't health care with public option
  • 0% (0)
    Full Gov't health care no public option
  • 4% (1)
    Gov't care only for low income who cannot afford their own plan
  • 0% (0)
    A gov't instituted health exchange or Co-op.
  • 4% (1)
    Gov't vouchers or tax breaks to constituents for purchase of health insurance.
  • 12% (3)
    One of the above with tort reform and follow through on medicare savings.
  • 4% (1)
    Legislation on Tort reform and follow through on medicare savings only.
  • 16% (4)
    Close it all down for Gov't involvment and let the free market work.
  • 0% (0)
    Leave it alone, things are fine as is.
  • 0% (0)
    My option is not up here! (Please explain.)
25 Total Votes  
post #121 of 383
Quote:
Originally Posted by involuntary_serf View Post

You could beg a socialist, collectivist, statist, coercivist, central control and planning fundamentalist all day and night to tell you how exactly they will overcome the basic laws of economics, but you will never get an answer. Instead you will get some vague reference to the Utopia we will live in when the Perfect Government rules all.

You write this.

But in France they have a better health service than they do in the United States of America.

So there are solutions. They've been tried, and honed, and they work.

How much more proof do you need?

Your problems aren't material, or practical. They're ideological. And in the meantime people are actually dying and things aren't as good as they could be.

Like in France.
post #122 of 383
Quote:
Originally Posted by screener View Post

Started out with you saying,

And I gave you a reason to be ashamed, which you didn't know anything about and you then say,

You didn't even read the articles, not just one private organization, many charitable organizations that were originally set up to help 3rd world countries are now being tasked to operate in the US.

Are you embarrassed by this or not.

The best health care system in the world, if you can afford it.

I agree that it is unfortunate that this is happening (anywhere). But I am trying to move beyond my emotions about the situation to figure out the causes. Do I personally have any reason to be embarrassed? Let me say it this way, the ones who should be embarrassed are those whose actions (and their supporters) have led to this problem. So I am trying to get to the root of that.

But if you want to simply toss out "you should be ashamed" and end it there...fine. That doesn't really accomplish anything, but if it makes you feel better...feel righteously indignant...knock yourself out.
post #123 of 383
I'm so glad I live in Canada.
post #124 of 383
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo View Post

You write this.

But in France they have a better health service than they do in the United States of America.

So there are solutions. They've been tried, and honed, and they work.

Yes I have heard these claims.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo View Post

How much more proof do you need?

Actual proof (vs. anecdotal stories...because I hear just as many bad anecdotes about places like France, UK, Canada, etc.) would be a start. And proof that examines the entire picture, all of the costs, not simply a narrow perspective that is sliced to make things look good.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo View Post

Your problems aren't material, or practical. They're ideological. And in the meantime people are actually dying and things aren't as good as they could be.

Mostly agree.
post #125 of 383
Quote:
Originally Posted by franksargent View Post

Why is Rasmussen Reports the all-time favorite of the right wing anyway?

Criticism of Rasmussen Reports



Oops, never mind, I've answered my own question.

What, do you really think nobody reads your links?

From the link you posted:
Quote:
In 2004 Slate magazine “publicly doubted and privately derided" Rasmussen's use of recorded voices in electoral polls. However, after the election, they concluded that Rasmussen’s polls were among the most accurate in the 2004 presidential election.[15] Near the end of the 2008 Presidential Election, progressive statistician Nate Silver of FiveThirtyEight.com analyzed the eight national presidential tracking polls. Silver concluded that while none were perfect, "Rasmussen -- with its large sample size and high pollster rating -- would probably be the one I'd want with me on a desert island."[16]

MSNBC does not use Rasmussen polls.[17] Conversely, conservative media frequently refers to Rasmussen, praising them for being the first to ask about a relevant issue or to ask questions that other pollsters do not.[18][19]

I guess you only value accuracy when it agrees with your preconceptions?
post #126 of 383
Quote:
Originally Posted by involuntary_serf View Post

Then enlighten us with your outline.

Done several times, completely ignored each one.
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post #127 of 383
Quote:
Originally Posted by screener View Post

The best health care system in the world, if you can afford it.

No question we can afford it, since we already spend twice as much of our GDP on health care as any other nation on the planet. The problem is we throw a great part of it down various rat holes.
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post #128 of 383
Quote:
Originally Posted by Involuntary serf View Post

Actual proof (vs. anecdotal stories...because I hear just as many bad anecdotes about places like France, UK, Canada, etc.) would be a start. And proof that examines the entire picture, all of the costs, not simply a narrow perspective that is sliced to make things look good.

Will Business Week do for a start?

Quote:
France also demonstrates that you can deliver stellar results with this mix of public and private financing. In a recent World Health Organization health-care ranking, France came in first, while the U.S. scored 37th, slightly better than Cuba and one notch above Slovenia. France's infant death rate is 3.9 per 1,000 live births, compared with 7 in the U.S., and average life expectancy is 79.4 years, two years more than in the U.S.

The country has far more hospital beds and doctors per capita than America, and far lower rates of death from diabetes and heart disease. The difference in deaths from respiratory disease, an often preventable form of mortality, is particularly striking: 31.2 per 100,000 people in France, vs. 61.5 per 100,000 in the U.S.

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine...8/b4042070.htm

Apparently 60% of the country is satisfied with their healthcare compared to America's 40%

Face it, your problems aren't do with the standard of the care but with ideology. The French system has a whiff of the evil sharing-for-the-commonweal about it. Even though it serves more people better and cheaper and people are happier with it and France has a right wing government, it's just too much like Russia.
post #129 of 383
Quote:
Originally Posted by involuntary_serf View Post

I propose a solution which involves allowing greater market competition in these markets for health care products, services and insurance




I agree with you that that would help but things are going the other way. A serious question. Do you know what role the government played in allowing this to happen? I would expect it of repubs but what about dems?

" Negligible Competition in the Private Insurance Market = Higher and Higher Premiums

94% of All Markets Have A Near Monopoly When It Comes to Individual Insurers. “The American Medical Association reports that 94 percent of insurance markets in the United States are now highly concentrated. Shrinking competition among health insurance companies is a major cause of these spiraling costs. In the past 13 years more than 400 corporate mergers have involved health insurers, and a small number of companies now dominate local markets…Contrary to industry assertions, these mergers have undermined market efficiency; premiums have skyrocketed, increasing more than 87 percent, on average, over the past six years.” [American Medical Association, 2008]"
~ http://www.americansunitedforchange....50helpfulfacts



I particularly liked this one-

"California Insurers Deny 1-in-5 Medical Claims for Insured Patients, Even When Recommended by a Patient's Doctor: “More than one of every five requests for medical claims for insured patients, even when recommended by a patient's physician, are rejected by California's largest private insurers, amounting to very real death panels in practice daily in the nation's biggest state, according to data released Wednesday by the California Nurses Association/National Nurses Organizing Committee.” [Press release, California Nurses Association, 9/2/2009]"
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post #130 of 383
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo View Post

Will Business Week do for a start?



http://www.businessweek.com/magazine...8/b4042070.htm

Apparently 60% of the country is satisfied with their healthcare compared to America's 40%

Face it, your problems aren't do with the standard of the care but with ideology. The French system has a whiff of the evil sharing-for-the-commonweal about it. Even though it serves more people better and cheaper and people are happier with it and France has a right wing government, it's just too much like Russia.

The problem you have is that all of the good stuff everyone wants to cite boils down to three basic statistics: cost per person, infant mortality rate and life expectancy. All three of these statistics have problems with them. Not the least of which is that these numbers are often calculated differently in every country leading to distortions and problems in using them comparatively.
post #131 of 383
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

I agree with you that that would help but things are going the other way. A serious question. Do you know what role the government played in allowing this to happen? I would expect it of repubs but what about dems?

Primarily I would say the barriers to entry they create through regulatory and licensing schemes that significantly limit the number of competitors in the market.

Additionally, tax law creates distortions that funnel most people that do have health insurance toward employer based plans and plans that create a large 3rd party payer problem not to mention an employment/insurance coupling problem.
post #132 of 383
Quote:
Originally Posted by involuntary_serf View Post

Primarily I would say the barriers to entry they create through regulatory and licensing schemes that significantly limit the number of competitors in the market.

Additionally, tax law creates distortions that funnel most people that do have health insurance toward employer based plans and plans that create a large 3rd party payer problem not to mention an employment/insurance coupling problem.

I don't know what's been happening with "regulatory and licensing schemes". Could you explain to me how this has been able to impact this industry and whether you regard the repubs or the dems as being the main protagonists behind it?
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post #133 of 383
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo View Post

Face it, your problems aren't do with the standard of the care but with ideology. The French system has a whiff of the evil sharing-for-the-commonweal about it. Even though it serves more people better and cheaper and people are happier with it and France has a right wing government, it's just too much like Russia.

Not to worry, in the future we'll all be rich enough to afford whatever health care we'll ever need, but only if we remain pure of heart and deed. And remember, all statistics are tainted if they don't report what you expect.
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post #134 of 383
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

I don't know what's been happening with "regulatory and licensing schemes". Could you explain to me how this has been able to impact this industry and whether you regard the repubs or the dems as being the main protagonists behind it?

Well it not like it has been a recent phenomenon. It has been happening progressively for decades as the industries (medical care and health insurance industries) have carefully and cleverly achieved what is called "regulatory capture" and basically own the regulatory apparatus to their own benefit such that they reduce, limit or eliminate competition.

As for which party is the main culprit? Both.

Both are "owned" by special interests of various kinds that lobby for (and get) various laws passed that create these problems).

In fact most people operate under the delusion that we actually have two separate and independent political parties in this country. No, what we have is two wings of the same bird of prey.
post #135 of 383
Quote:
Originally Posted by involuntary_serf View Post

Well it not like it has been a recent phenomenon. It has been happening progressively for decades as the industries (medical care and health insurance industries) have carefully and cleverly achieved what is called "regulatory capture" and basically own the regulatory apparatus to their own benefit such that they reduce, limit or eliminate competition.

As for which party is the main culprit? Both.

Both are "owned" by special interests of various kinds that lobby for (and get) various laws passed that create these problems).

In fact most people operate under the delusion that we actually have two separate and independent political parties in this country. No, what we have is two wings of the same bird of prey.

Yes there's a lot of "You scratch my back and I'll scratch yours" going on behind the scenes. There has to be, with so many fingers in the pie, as you point out.

So am I right in thinking you see government as like a rotten apple (at the moment and no doubt extending quite far back in time)) that business is attracted to for their own gain? But by diminishing government, businesses would no longer be able to be in cahoots with them creating more competition and a more level playing field for businesses and citizens alike?
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post #136 of 383
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

So am I right in thinking you see government as like a rotten apple (at the moment and no doubt extending quite far back in time)) that business is attracted to for their own gain? But by diminishing government, businesses would no longer be able to be in cahoots with them creating more competition and a more level playing field for businesses and citizens alike?

Yes. That hits the nail on the head as far as I'm concerned. I would only add that it isn't just businesses that are attracted to it for their own gain but special interests in general whether they are business/corporate or not.

Government has become an epicenter of power. It attracts those who are hungry for and lust for power. I don't think it is a complicated algorithm.
post #137 of 383
Quote:
Originally Posted by involuntary_serf View Post

Yes. That hits the nail on the head as far as I'm concerned. I would only add that it isn't just businesses that are attracted to it for their own gain but special interests in general whether they are business/corporate or not.

Government has become an epicenter of power. It attracts those who are hungry for and lust for power. I don't think it is a complicated algorithm.

Well, if it's any conciliation, I'm now (because I live in Scotland) a part of Europe, who's law makers aren't even elected by the citizens. That doesn't bode well for Europe, but it may not bode well for the US voters either at some point in the not too distant future. I can't imagine that happening in the US, but I couldn't imagine that happening here either, not long ago!
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post #138 of 383
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taskiss View Post

What, do you really think nobody reads your links?

From the link you posted:


I guess you only value accuracy when it agrees with your preconceptions?

No. It is your preconceptions that places greater value on one single polling company, which leans right in your direction.

Rasmussen has been a favorite of the right, as their polls are biased toward the right. That much we do know for sure as the link I posted clearly points out.

Quote:
Democratic Party activists have pointed out that Scott Rasmussen was a paid consultant for the 2004 George W. Bush campaign.[10] Rasmussen Reports have also performed paid work for Bush opponents. For example, the anti-war organization After Downing Street commissioned a Rasmussen poll on support for impeachment of President Bush. According to Nate Silver's FiveThirtyEight.com, while there are no apparent records of Scott Rasmussen or Rasmussen Reports making contributions to political candidates and its public election polls are generally regarded as reliable, "some observers have questioned its issue-based polling, which frequently tends to elicit responses that are more conservative than those found on other national surveys."

John Marshal of Talking Points Memo has said, "The toplines tend to be a bit toward the Republican side of the spectrum, compared to the average of other polls. But if you factor that in they're pretty reliable.

So apparently you take their polls and shift them to agree with the others, which suggests that, as is, Rasmussen polling data is not as accurate, but is right biased, and the right bias must be removed.

Rasmussen is known for asking leading questions in their robocall polls. They also don't have full transparancy, as in releasing the entire questionaire of their polls. I've posted this in previous threads. Zogby, Gallup, and Harris are also known for these tactics. These polls are also not random samples, but graded to a preconceived curve (meaning they don't tell you how they massaged the raw data). Bottom line? They're all in it for the money and to generate various levels of shock value.

Full transparancy requires releasing the entire questionaire, the raw data, and any adjustments to the raw data that results in altering said raw data (e. g. their final numbers).

Finally, anyone who answers oral or verbal polling questions should be aware of what exactly they are getting into. I myself will only fill out a written questionaire, but only after I've read it fully through, and I am unable to decern any suspicious underlying theme, if so, then I walk away.
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post #139 of 383
Who cares what the polls say, really? Polls don't change facts, and the polling numbers are at best a reflection of the steady drumbeat of misinformation about what the various plans under consideration would actually do.
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post #140 of 383
Quote:
Originally Posted by involuntary_serf View Post

The problem you have is that all of the good stuff everyone wants to cite boils down to three basic statistics: cost per person, infant mortality rate and life expectancy. All three of these statistics have problems with them. Not the least of which is that these numbers are often calculated differently in every country leading to distortions and problems in using them comparatively.

You want 'real evidence' but reserve the right to reject that evidence if it doesn't accord with your political beliefs.

In the meantime, France has a better healthcare system that America by any objective measure.

Your objections are ideological, not practical.
post #141 of 383
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Millmoss View Post

Who cares what the polls say, really? Polls don't change facts, and the polling numbers are at best a reflection of the steady drumbeat of misinformation about what the various plans under consideration would actually do.

Because polls reflect the will of the governed.
post #142 of 383
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Millmoss View Post

Who cares what the polls say, really?

because it is not a dictatorship?

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post #143 of 383
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taskiss View Post

Because one poll, and only one poll, Rasmussen Reports, reflects the will of the governed.

tftfy
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post #144 of 383
Quote:
Originally Posted by franksargent View Post

I stare at goats until they die.

That explains a lot.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #145 of 383
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo View Post

You want 'real evidence' but reserve the right to reject that evidence if it doesn't accord with your political beliefs.

Yes, that's exactly how my statement should be interpreted.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo View Post

Your objections are ideological, not practical.

At this point it's starting to look like you are projecting.
post #146 of 383
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

I'm always wrong.

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post #147 of 383
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taskiss View Post

Because polls reflect the will of the governed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aizmov View Post

because it is not a dictatorship?

No, votes do. Polls are polls, not democracy. I should have to explain such a thing? Wow.
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post #148 of 383
Quote:
Originally Posted by involuntary_serf View Post

Yes, that's exactly how my statement should be interpreted. .

You asked for evidence. I gave you some. You rejected it.

According to the the World Health Organisation:

Quote:
The U. S. health system spends a higher portion of its gross domestic product than any other country but ranks 37 out of 191 countries according to its performance, the report finds. The United Kingdom, which spends just six percent of gross domestic product (GDP) on health services, ranks 18th . Several small countries San Marino, Andorra, Malta and Singapore are rated close behind second- placed Italy.

The French system has better facilities and more doctors per head of population and has generated for the French higher longevity and lower infant mortality than America and has a 60% patient satisfaction rating.

That is according to the WHO.

You don't like the WHO's statistics, so just tell me which international, independent organisation you do trust.
post #149 of 383
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo View Post

You asked for evidence. I gave you some. You rejected it.

I pointed out that there are flaws in the evidence you presented, but not because of my political beliefs you have fallaciously claimed.
post #150 of 383
Quote:
Originally Posted by involuntary_serf View Post

I pointed out that there are flaws in the evidence you presented, but not because of my political beliefs you have fallaciously claimed.

No.

You objected to cost per person, life expectancy and infant mortality, for reasons you didn't specify

You totally ignored the quality of the facilities, the doctors per head of population and patient satisfaction.

So you refused to even discuss my evidence.

You pretended I didn't write it.

If you don't trust and refuse to discuss the World Health Organisation's statistics and index, I don't believe you are interested in a serious discussion of any statistics. I know your economic ideology and I can infer that you won't discuss statistics you find inconvenient because of it. I'll be delighted to be surprised.

In the meantime, your health care system is pretty shit in international terms and it could be fixed. You have the opportunity to make it better than France's. Instead of wasting time here you should be emailing your Republican representatives and telling them to find an interest in good governance.
post #151 of 383
And he pretended he read any of the links I posted regarding free health care diverted from the intended to the US.
Then wondered why he should be personally embarrassed, ashamed.

Reminds me of SDW saying to a poster here that it sucks his provider doesn't allow him to choose his doctor or hospital, because mine does.
Guess it depends on the employer, union.

The old I'm alright, sucks to be you, but I don't give a shit mantra.
post #152 of 383
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo View Post

No.

You objected to cost per person, life expectancy and infant mortality, for reasons you didn't specify

You totally ignored the quality of the facilities, the doctors per head of population and patient satisfaction*.

So you refused to even discuss my evidence.

Not at all. Tell you what. You are hanging your hat on these statistics, then let's dive into them (this will be your responsibility). Show us all that:

1. cost per person includes all costs (both monetary and non-monetary) and is measured and calculated the same way in the comparative countries.

2. life expectancy and infant mortality is measured and calculated the same way in the comparative countries and corrects for factors unrelated to the health care system.

3. "quality of the facilities" is objectively determined and measured and calculated in the same way in the comparative countries.

4. doctors per head of population is a meaningful measure of actual health care provided.

That's all you have to do to make sure your evidence is actually proof of what you claim.

Finally, since we're being all objective and all that. Are there any measures at all (e.g., cancer survival and mortality rates, access to treatment for chronic diseases , access to preventive cancer screening , wait times, etc.) in which the U.S. out ranks these other countries that should be included so as to have a complete picture of health care in each country?

*Patient satisfaction is fine but not especially objective measure and is clearly subject to the subjective whims of who was asked, when and what questions they were asked to determine their "satisfaction".
post #153 of 383
Quote:
Originally Posted by screener View Post

And he pretended he read any of the links I posted regarding free health care diverted from the intended to the US.

To be clear, you posted a link to Google search. I read the first couple of articles. Then proceeded to break the problem down for discussion which you refused to engage in because, apparently, you'd rather just sit there in righteous indignation and tell me how embarrassed and ashamed I should be for something I have no personal responsibility for or involvement with.

post #154 of 383
Quote:
Originally Posted by involuntary_serf View Post

To be clear, you posted a link to Google search. I read the first couple of articles. Then proceeded to break the problem down for discussion which you refused to engage in because, apparently, you'd rather just sit there in righteous indignation and tell me how embarrassed and ashamed I should be for something I have no personal responsibility for or involvement with.


You made it personal.
What I gave you'all a reason to be shamed for was your question,
Quote:
Now we must all be shamed by the fact that the people of France look down upon us?!

You'all should be.
post #155 of 383
Let's check in with that ideological right-wing extremist Camille Paglia:

Quote:
As for the actual content of the House healthcare bill, horrors! Where to begin? That there are serious deficiencies and injustices in the U.S. healthcare system has been obvious for decades. To bring the poor and vulnerable into the fold has been a high ideal and an urgent goal for most Democrats. But this rigid, intrusive and grotesquely expensive bill is a nightmare. Holy Hygeia, why can't my fellow Democrats see that the creation of another huge, inefficient federal bureaucracy would slow and disrupt the delivery of basic healthcare and subject us all to a labyrinthine mass of incompetent, unaccountable petty dictators? Massively expanding the number of healthcare consumers without making due provision for the production of more healthcare providers means that we're hurtling toward a staggering logjam of de facto rationing.

Quote:
A second issue souring me on this bill is its failure to include the most common-sense clause to increase competition and drive down prices: portability of health insurance across state lines. What covert business interests is the Democratic leadership protecting by stopping consumers from shopping for policies nationwide? Finally, no healthcare bill is worth the paper it's printed on when the authors ostentatiously exempt themselves from its rules.

Quote:
International models of socialized medicine have been developed for nations and populations that are usually vastly smaller than our own. There are positives and negatives in their system as in ours. So what's the point of this trade? The plight of the uninsured (whose number is far less than claimed) should be directly addressed without co-opting and destroying the entire U.S. medical infrastructure. Limited, targeted reforms can ban gouging and unfair practices and can streamline communications now wastefully encumbered by red tape. But insurance companies and the pharmaceutical industry are not the sole cause of mounting healthcare costs, and constantly demonizing them is a demagogic evasion.

And here's the money quote:

Quote:
It's as if liberals are starry-eyed dreamers lacking the elementary ability to project or predict the chaotic and destabilizing practical consequences of their utopian fantasies.
post #156 of 383
Quote:
Originally Posted by screener View Post

You made it personal.
What I gave you'all a reason to be shamed for was your question,

You'all should be.

I made it personal because embarrassment and shame are personal, individual things that derive from embarrassing and shameful actions. The ones to be embarrassed and ashamed are those who have caused these circumstances to come about by their actions (or support for those actions).
post #157 of 383
Quote:
Originally Posted by involuntary_serf View Post

I made it personal because embarrassment and shame are personal, individual things that derive from embarrassing and shameful actions. The ones to be embarrassed and ashamed are those who have caused these circumstances to come about by their actions (or support for those actions).

Americans, you are one right?

Furriners don't give a rats ass if you agreed to an action by your government or not.
Just like a lot of Americans don't give a rats ass if you're a friendly Muslim.

See how it works?
post #158 of 383
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo View Post

If you don't trust and refuse to discuss the World Health Organisation's statistics and index, I don't believe you are interested in a serious discussion of any statistics. I know your economic ideology and I can infer that you won't discuss statistics you find inconvenient because of it. I'll be delighted to be surprised.

I can easily predict that you won't be surprised. You will also never get any direct answers to any direct questions. Skepticism is fine, but at some point, skepticism turns into full scale evasion. That line was crossed a long time ago in this discussion.

If you're a dedicated market force mystic, you have to be practiced at evasion, since the system you believe addresses all issues to perfection will never actually exist. Consequently, every practical question about why it doesn't seem to work in any given case, must be answered with abstract theory and otherwise ignored. In the end, this produces nothing of course, but as I've pointed out many times in this discussion, production of results is not the goal of this tactic. Victory is found in jawboning the thing into the ground and producing no results at all.
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post #159 of 383
Quote:
Originally Posted by screener View Post

Furriners don't give a rats ass if you agreed to an action by your government or not.
Just like a lot of Americans don't give a rats ass if you're a friendly Muslim.

That you choose to blindly follow such prejudicial thinking wherein someone identifiable as part of some group or class is entirely inseparable in every way from the others in that group speaks volumes.

Yes, I am an American. Am I responsible and do I support all or even many of the actions by those in power in the American governments? No. And I will not be made responsible for them. Many of those actions, that I view to be harmful and detrimental, I oppose and vote against and do my best to speak out against hoping to convince others to vote against as well.

But ultimately individuals are responsible for their own actions and bear the burden of embarrassment and shame if those actions are embarrassing and shameful or result in embarrassing and shameful results.
post #160 of 383
Quote:
Originally Posted by bsenka View Post

It really does work very well here (Canada).

It's not without issues, there are parts of the core structure of budget management and premium transfer that I would change to balance out the constant roller coaster between surplus and shortfall. But the access and quality of care is absolutely top rate, and the government is not involved in healthcare decisions whatsoever. The doctor decides what you get, and the govt insurance plan just pays for it. There are no bean counters looking to find ways to deny coverage, all coverage is completely portable, and the phrase "pre-existing condition" has no meaning.

I have a very hard time understanding why anyone would ever want to live under a system without such guarantees, and it's very confusing to see US TV spots describing our system using situations that are simply unheard of here, trying to make it sound as if they were the norm. They've created this weird strawman that bears little resemblance to what we've got.


I've heard many stories of bad care and bureaucratic disaster, not too mention lower quality of care than in the US. That said, even if what I've heard and read is all wrong, let me ask: Can we have the same system here in the US?

I'll answer: No, we can't. For one thing, we've been spending trillions defending the Free World since WWII. We've been your Army and Navy, as well as Western Europe's. In other words, we don't have the money. We also have a much larger population. All this, not to mention that the current House bill is like Canada's system on steroids, mushrooms and cocaine.
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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